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Dolzar



Joined: Oct 5, 2003
Posts: 45
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A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

I have heard a large amount or rumors as of lately about outlandish taxes rates and ineffectual leadership on Cnossos Island, whilst I have been out of the picture as of late due to computer troubles it has and will remain to be my policy that any shop keep with a concern or question in regards to the government of Cnossos Island need but ask and I would gladly give them a answer. To clarify, taxes are set at 5% to help cover the cost of all construction of the bazaars, being unable to subsidize taxes I shall of course return to collecting a 0% on taxes barring any need which I shall of course make public on the Island notice board. To those of you who bought into these rumors/beliefs I hope in the future you go to the source before you get worked up, to those of you who have no clue what I am talking about, I apologize for wasting your time.
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~Dolzar~
Scapegoat of Red Dawn, and for the rest of the ocean as well!
[Jul 12, 2004 1:18:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lizzie

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

So you've set taxes at 5% to pay for bazaars that are going to make it more difficult for shop keepers (that pay the tax) to make PoE? If I've got this right, sounds a bit lame, I don't blame them for being annoyed. If I'm mixed up then *shrugs* hey, it happens a lot. :)
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Ravine
Black Death, Midnight

[Jul 12, 2004 1:54:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dolzar



Joined: Oct 5, 2003
Posts: 45
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

I suggest you look more into the impact bazaars have on the economy, as like many you fail to see the good they do bring with them. But that matter at hand was the complaints I have heard had taxes set atleast over 20% which was a downright lie. Hopefully this matter can be discussed in a fair and proper manner and the mud slinging can stop.
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~Dolzar~
Scapegoat of Red Dawn, and for the rest of the ocean as well!
[Jul 12, 2004 2:12:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Quizzical



Joined: May 11, 2004
Posts: 1811
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

As of a couple days ago, when I computed and posted all the island tax rates, Cnossos was at 15%, which was about middle of the road, though high for an island that had a lot of shops before the bazaar update.

But any governor that gets the iron monger and distillery bazaars up without setting outlandish tax rates gets my vote. Except that I can't vote on random other islands, so it doesn't matter.

As for shop owners being annoyed, of course they're going to be annoyed that they lose their artifical protection from competition. That's just like the real-life special interest groups that predict random cataclysms if their pet pork project doesn't get more funds.
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There is no "i" in "complex numbers".
[Jul 12, 2004 2:27:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Rhodes



Joined: Jun 9, 2004
Posts: 205
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Lizzie wrote: 
So you've set taxes at 5% to pay for bazaars that are going to make it more difficult for shop keepers (that pay the tax) to make PoE? If I've got this right, sounds a bit lame, I don't blame them for being annoyed. If I'm mixed up then *shrugs* hey, it happens a lot. :)


The shop owners should probably look forward to the new bazaars. The prices on cannonballs and rum will drop, which will be a good thing. I, for one, and I'm sure many others avoid buying rum and shot at Cnossos unless absolutely necessary, due to the high prices. It's much cheaper to sail on to Guava or Turtle to restock than to do so at Cnossos currently. With the new bazaars, the shops will likely get more business as frugal-minded sailors will start restocking there (not that the shops will get all of the business, but they definitely will get a cut of it).
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Rhodes
SO of the Marine Knights
[Jul 12, 2004 2:46:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://se.lot42.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
ZSA004

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Good point Rhodes.

Average experience pirate at Cnossos:
64 per rum here or 51 per rum at Guava....Hmmmm....
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Iskra says, "You're the sweetest pirate I've seen in the the whole ocean"
[Jul 12, 2004 3:35:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    ZSA004 [Link]  Go to top 
runnings_fun



Joined: Oct 12, 2003
Posts: 556
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Dolzar wrote: 
being unable to subsidize taxes I shall of course return to collecting a 0% on taxes barring any need which I shall of course make public on the Island notice board.


This makes no sense to me. Care to clarify?
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A Ptolmaic Overlord Production

 
Sadly, I believe Ptolemy is correct.

[Jul 12, 2004 11:37:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    drfeetseconds [Link]  Go to top 
goodmanj

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Full disclosure: until recently, I was a Cnossos shop manager.

 

As for shop owners being annoyed, of course they're going to be annoyed that they lose their artifical protection from competition. That's just like the real-life special interest groups that predict random cataclysms if their pet pork project doesn't get more funds.


It's one thing for a shopkeeper to make a voluntary donation for the good of the community. It's quite another to be forced to pay to for your own noose.

If the bazaars are put in place to help "the community", let the community at large pay for it by setting up a substantial bank transaction fee. Thus, the people who use Cnossos will end up paying for its improvements.

As for high prices on Cnossos, I feel this is mostly because Cnossos doesn't produce any commodities of value, and is not a major "home port" like Alpha. We were all aware of this when Cnossos was colonized. Buy prices for bulk raw materials are quite high, to reward traders for their services.
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Argonaut
Senior Officer, Six Leagues Under, Heavens Aligned
Fleet Officer, Sweet Pillage and Mayhem, Cobalt
[Jul 12, 2004 11:52:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
goodmanj

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

runnings_fun wrote: 
Dolzar wrote: 
being unable to subsidize taxes I shall of course return to collecting a 0% on taxes barring any need which I shall of course make public on the Island notice board.


This makes no sense to me. Care to clarify?


I think he means that he'll stop skimming off the top until he sees another reason to do so.

(This doesn't mean Cnossos will be tax-free: it means he won't be taking extra tax beyond the base. Since this leaves him with no income to pay for island maintenance, this is pretty generous.)
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Argonaut
Senior Officer, Six Leagues Under, Heavens Aligned
Fleet Officer, Sweet Pillage and Mayhem, Cobalt
[Jul 12, 2004 11:56:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Wendtly



Joined: Jan 27, 2004
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Man of his Word

I'd just like to thank our honorable Governor for being a man of his word. Am I being sarcastic? NAWwwww... Whatever gave ye that idea?

About 5 or 6 weeks ago he came to me as manager of a distillery here and told us that he would appreciate it if we, as the only serious distillery on the island, would voluntarily keep our prices lower in order to promote the growth of the island. He gave us a target price to keep below, and in addition asked that we refrain from buying up the paltry amounts our island competitors were producing (for purposes of further markup). In exchange, he would refrain from building a distillery bazaar, which would just cost tax money that he didn't want to have to spend anyway. We agreed.

In the ensuing weeks, we have kept prices, on average, at least 3-4 PoE below the target price. Note that we could have been charging much more. We have refrained from our completely legitimate, but nevertheless "uncompetitive" practice of buying up our competitors. We have done what he asked, and then some.

In return, I logged on today to find a new distillery bazaar in the works.

Hey, I don't mind the fact that he's building a distillery bazaar. We'll still continue to dominate this island. What I do mind is the fact that we were lied to, and cheated out of a fair amount of profit over that time period. I'm sure the governor will be more than happy to compensate us for our losses....

So, thank you, Governor, for being a man of yer word. Feel free to ask me for anything in the future.

Just be prepared for me to tell you where to go when you do.
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~ Boochie ~
Senior Officer of the Azure Rebellion
Princess of Maritime Law
[Jul 13, 2004 1:13:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
runnings_fun



Joined: Oct 12, 2003
Posts: 556
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Re: Man of his Word

Wendtly wrote: 

So, thank you, Governor, for being a man of yer word. Feel free to ask me for anything in the future.

Just be prepared for me to tell you where to go when you do.

/em claps
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A Ptolmaic Overlord Production

 
Sadly, I believe Ptolemy is correct.

[Jul 13, 2004 1:14:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    drfeetseconds [Link]  Go to top 
Shanoyu

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Ok, so obvious question time.

If you were hitting "target prices" and all that jazz, what sort of messed up target was this, because uh, yeah, rum on cnossos wasn't cheap over the past six weeks. I'm having a hard time believing you.
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His Holiness, The Dope
[Jul 13, 2004 1:22:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



Joined: Mar 3, 2003
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Shanoyu wrote: 
If you were hitting "target prices" and all that jazz, what sort of messed up target was this, because uh, yeah, rum on cnossos wasn't cheap over the past six weeks.


Aye, literally every time I port at Cnossos I am so shocked at the prices that I have to comment on them over crew chat. I can get shot at 18 elsewhere, and rum at 50-ish. Last night, I didn't even stop, just went on to Alpha, where the prices are at least reasonable.
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Avatar by Rubby
[Jul 13, 2004 2:12:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Phwibbles



Joined: Sep 21, 2003
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Quizzical wrote: 
As of a couple days ago, when I computed and posted all the island tax rates, Cnossos was at 15%, which was about middle of the road, though high for an island that had a lot of shops before the bazaar update.

I'd be interested to know how you computed this. As far as I know, no one knows exactly how population effects taxes, so the only way I can think of to figure out one island's tax is to find a similarly populated one, ask its governor about their tax %, and then compare opening stall prices on each of the two islands.
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Bifnot, second king of The Jolly Company
First Governor of the Midnight Ocean
[Jul 13, 2004 2:32:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Wendtly



Joined: Jan 27, 2004
Posts: 66
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Hard Time Believing Me?

Shanoyu wrote: 
Ok, so obvious question time.

If you were hitting "target prices" and all that jazz, what sort of messed up target was this, because uh, yeah, rum on cnossos wasn't cheap over the past six weeks. I'm having a hard time believing you.


Hey, don't blame us for a complete lack of competition on our island... Yes, we were given a target price, and have been charging less than that for several weeks now.
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~ Boochie ~
Senior Officer of the Azure Rebellion
Princess of Maritime Law
[Jul 13, 2004 3:00:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanoyu

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Yet you still refuse to state what this target price was.

Either way, your prices still being several poe below this reputed "target price" are still a full 10 poe more than anywhere else in diamond when I checked about an hour ago. At such exorbitant rates in the context of competetor distillers literally a few league points away, I find it hard to believe you were selling any rum at all. Before you dropped prices, Alpha was a full 25 poe cheaper than Cnossos.

If Dolzar did make such an agreement, then yes, that was silly. I'm still having a hard time believing he did.

Either way, no governor has an obligation to maintain an islands shopkeeper monopoly. Cnossos needed a distillery bazaar; it's about time. You have zero business having prices that much higher than Alpha, unless an extra league point to get wood from Turtle somehow equates into 20 poe per unit.

If you didn't want a distillery bazaar on Cnossos, then it was your responsibility to make it unattractive with low prices, or at least prices equal to that of nearby markets.
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His Holiness, The Dope
[Jul 13, 2004 3:14:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Wendtly



Joined: Jan 27, 2004
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Shanoyu wrote: 
Yet you still refuse to state what this target price was.


Jeez, yer missing the point. The point is we were lied to. I'm sorry if you are upset about the high cost of rum on Cnossos. Talk to our competitors, and ask them why they have made no real effort to compete.

Shanoyu wrote: 
Either way, your prices still being several poe below this reputed "target price" are still a full 10 poe more than anywhere else in diamond when I checked about an hour ago. At such exorbitant rates in the context of competetor distillers literally a few league points away, I find it hard to believe you were selling any rum at all. Before you dropped prices, Alpha was a full 25 poe cheaper than Cnossos.


We had a virtual monopoly on the island. Hey, 3 distilleries, but we're the only one making rum. You do the math....

And yes, we've been doing very well, thank you.

Shanoyu wrote: 
If Dolzar did make such an agreement, then yes, that was silly. I'm still having a hard time believing he did.


The Governor knows the truth.

Shanoyu wrote: 
Either way, no governor has an obligation to maintain an islands shopkeeper monopoly. Cnossos needed a distillery bazaar; it's about time.


You obviously can't read very well. As I stated in my first post, my objection isn't to having a new distillery bazaar. Prices will drop, but we'll still do fine. My objection is being LIED to....

Shanoyu wrote: 
You have zero business having prices that much higher than Alpha, unless an extra league point to get wood from Turtle somehow equates into 20 poe per unit.


We have been doing our jobs and keeping Cnossos stocked with rum. Our competition has not. Take up yer beef with them. But I'll warn you... they don't seem to care.

Shanoyu wrote: 
If you didn't want a distillery bazaar on Cnossos, then it was your responsibility to make it unattractive with low prices, or at least prices equal to that of nearby markets.


Um, that doesn't even make any sense. Our distillery will continue to do very well, thank you. We just don't like being lied to by politicians.

[Edited many times to try and take the edge off, but all before posting the first time]
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~ Boochie ~
Senior Officer of the Azure Rebellion
Princess of Maritime Law
[Jul 13, 2004 3:37:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
phygon

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Did he really raise the tax rate or are people complaining about the new tax system? Yes for my stall the taxes when up a lot. But its not the govenors fault people where advoiding taxes by reducing all numbers to 1 or 0.

new tax can be found here,
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=9421

I try to never buy Rum or Shot on Cnoss, I cant aford the prises there.
[Jul 13, 2004 3:44:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
quiglin

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Will the owners of one of the "other two" Distills contact me...I'm willing to purchase your Distillery...obviously Cnossos is ripe for a market takeover...Governor or no governor.
[Jul 13, 2004 3:47:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.quiglin.com    bquiglin    bquiglin [Link]  Go to top 
theonyx



Joined: Jun 12, 2004
Posts: 29
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Aye, I'm to make that same offer. If ye want out of owning a Distillery Shoppe on Cnossos, I have a mind to get in. Send me a PM or /tell Onyxious in game.
[Jul 13, 2004 3:54:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Quizzical



Joined: May 11, 2004
Posts: 1811
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Phwibbles wrote: 
I'd be interested to know how you computed this.


http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=9495

The reasoning behind the computations is as follows. I made a table of all stall costs on all islands in Emerald along with all populations. It was immediately obvious that the ratio of shipyard rent to distillery rent was the same on every island, and likewise for any other pair of stall types. That reduced the problem to dealing with just one type of stall, and allowed prediction of what the rent for that type of stall would be on islands that only had other bazaars.

Next I made two educated guesses. First, the tax rate on Vilya controlled islands would be 0%. Second, the rent as a function of population would be a straight line. These were only guesses at the time, but later justified by computations.

These gave nice round numbers for all deluxe stall types. The y-intercepts were all multiples of 100, and the slopes multiples of .05, or at least within rounding of them. For example, deluxe shipyard rent with x population and 0% tax was 3000+1.5x. That the numbers were nice and round meant I was probably onto something.

For small and medium stalls, the numbers weren't always so round, such as predicting 1435 small shipyard stall rent on a 0 population island with 0% tax, but a small shipyard stall has a labor throughput limit of 11/hr and a deluxe 23/hr, and 1435 is about 3000 * 11/23.

Further, computing the tax rates with the assumption of a 0% Vilya tax gave all other tax rates very close to non-negative integers. For example, a computed tax rate of 14.01% meant that the real tax rate was 14%, and there was some round-off error involved. There weren't any calculated values like 17.18% that didn't readily round to a very nearby integer percentage, which further confirms that my assumptions were most likely correct.

And you can confirm the rest of it yourself if you like: as of Saturday night, the tax rate on Emperor was 24%.

Wendtly wrote: 
Hey, don't blame us for a complete lack of competition on our island.


No bazaar means barriers to competition, which usually means not much of it. If it happens long term, then the "fault" is that of the governor, which Dolzar has now taken steps to correct.
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There is no "i" in "complex numbers".
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Quizzical at Jul 13, 2004 3:58:32 AM]
[Jul 13, 2004 3:58:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Wendtly



Joined: Jan 27, 2004
Posts: 66
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Or an Iron Monger

Aye,

And I'd like to talk with one of ye Conossus Iron Mongers, too! We might be willing to buy ye out as well...

(Throwing gasoline on the fire)
----------------------------------------
~ Boochie ~
Senior Officer of the Azure Rebellion
Princess of Maritime Law
[Jul 13, 2004 4:00:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanoyu

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Replace all instances of "Monopoly" in my previous posts with "Cartel", and it should be fixed.

Fact is, Dolzar wouldn't be making a bazaar if nobody was going to use it.

If he lied to you then yeah, that sucks. But it's hard for me to believe you because it doesn't add up.

Why would Dolzar attempt to get distillery shopkeepers to lower their prices to promote trade when he could simply build a bazaar in the first place?

Are you sure you might have just mistaken something he said for a verbal agreement when it was actually a simple statement of facts?

e.g. might he have said something like, "If the price of rum stays above x, i'll probably have to build a distillery bazaar to attract people to Cnossos."

In all honesty it sounds like he didn't lie to you so much as there was a misinterpretation and misunderstanding, at the most.

That said I hope the matter gets settled, preferably not on Daytime TV, but if you do, may I suggest



[size=24]JUDGE MILLS LANE
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His Holiness, The Dope
[Jul 13, 2004 4:08:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fujiko

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Boochie wrote: 
We have been doing our jobs and keeping Cnossos stocked with rum. Our competition has not. Take up yer beef with them. But I'll warn you... they don't seem to care.


My flag owns Hera and Baccae Again, another distillery on Cnossos.

We don't always have rum in stock. We try and keep it in stock (and I can say that we nearly always have orders when I go puzzle), but it sells quickly - because it is cheaper than the other stills on the island. Supply/demand, not a desire to not sell.

We also had frequent buyouts before Dolzar said to stop. To our competitors' credit, they did stop. However, we were just bought out again a few minutes ago...

When our stock is being bought, both by our competitors and sailors, to say that we don't care because we don't have stock is silly.
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Fujiko on Cerulean.
WTB: Mako ships, penguins, Neerie's prize-winning egg (a card suits one,) more of Greylady's sixth prize-winning eggs (the penguin one.)
[Jul 13, 2004 4:18:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
runnings_fun



Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

So with all the calls to buy a still, anyone want to buy a weaver? :-)
----------------------------------------
A Ptolmaic Overlord Production

 
Sadly, I believe Ptolemy is correct.

[Jul 13, 2004 4:21:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    drfeetseconds [Link]  Go to top 
Quizzical



Joined: May 11, 2004
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Oligopolies will lead to higher prices and may lead to inconsistent supplies available. It's not that the people in the oligopoly are being "evil", but merely playing the game as it is given to them. The way to end it is to build the bazaar, and without the higher prices, it doesn't matter whom the higher prices are blamed on.
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There is no "i" in "complex numbers".
[Jul 13, 2004 4:29:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
theonyx



Joined: Jun 12, 2004
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

runnings_fun wrote: 
So with all the calls to buy a still, anyone want to buy a weaver? :-)


With 5 other weaveries and 6 stalls to compete against, ye'd have to make a mighty fine offer.
[Jul 13, 2004 4:49:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tedv



Joined: Jul 29, 2003
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

With all due respect, I don't believe that "deals" really hold much weight, due to their lack of enforcibility. You can't just get people to artificially lower prices on an island. You need a credible threat, and that credible threat is called a bazaar.

Now in your favor, if you were able to buy rum dockside and resell at a higher price, then that's a sign they were underpriced. It doesn't mean a damn thing if the underpriced value is 65, while 8 leagues away the top price is 51. If you can resell at a higher value, their price must have been too high. The solution isn't to convince people to sell lower from deals. The solution is to provide economic incentive to lower prices. Bazaars do that wonderfully.
[Jul 13, 2004 5:03:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pippy



Joined: Mar 28, 2004
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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

tedv wrote: 
The solution is to provide economic incentive to lower prices. Bazaars do that wonderfully.


A method that would not have required another bazaar, therefore higher taxes, would have been for the Cnossos palace to sell shot and rum on the docks. Competition would have occurred thereby bringing down the price.

I've been very impressed with Eccezionalle's governorship of Oyster as they have built bazaars and shoppes that utilize the island's natural resources while still providing the "basic" commodities of shot and rum from the palace.
[Jul 13, 2004 5:35:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    kellychicago    PippyYPP [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Re: A Few Words about Cnossos (Shop Owners should read)

Pippy wrote: 
I've been very impressed with Eccezionalle's governorship of Oyster as they have built bazaars and shoppes that utilize the island's natural resources while still providing the "basic" commodities of shot and rum from the palace.

Hm. Was it unusual that they were out of shot last night, then?

atteSmythe,
who had plenty for the return trip, anyway
----------------------------------------
 
Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

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