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Forums » List all forums » Forum: Tips & Tricks, Questions & Answers » Thread: XOing and MAA strategy on Atlantis runs (Work in Progress) |
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Thread Status: Normal Thread Type: Sticky Thread Total posts in this thread: 105
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AlfMason
Joined: Jul 20, 2006 Posts: 1396 Status: Offline |
Let me preface this by saying that all of the following are my own opinions, and do not claim to be the truth. General: What the naver wants to know: While stuck in the nav screen, the navigator is pretty much blind. You are his eyes on the ship. Navigators will need updates on the number of bellators and the number of defenders, so they know when to leave the board to shake them. Navigators may also need in-between updates on the amount of stock on the ship, as the run goes on - lots of runs are pretty much stocked for eternity, but it's always good to know these things. This information should run via a designated chat channel (/o), or, if you have it, voice chat. What the jobbers want to know: Ever so often, you see someone dismiss their station and wander to the booty chest to look what's there. You can either yell at these jobbers, which is the stressful way, or you shout out the numbers at every break. Then the jobbers' curiosity is satisfied, and they have one less reason to abandon stations - it's win-win. EDIT: this has been partially addressed with the reports now saying what has been hauled since the last break - a voyage total is still nice, though 10% what you're saying, 20% how you say it, 70% how you look: Jobbers dislike bossy XOs. Someone who's constantly yelling creates a bad atmosphere on a ship. A good XO will give out praise lavishly, and bark commands sparingly. If it's one person you're concerned with, /tells and whistles are the way to go rather than adding even more to vessel spam. MAA: This can be done the easy way or the hard way. The easy way The harder way means more work for the MAA, but should ideally allow a ship to ward off bellators for longer: Get as many people as possible to defend and manage them manually. Gear the fray size to the challenge. If you have a fray against 4 belators you can of course send in 20 players, but that may not be so clever. If you do this, you'll have 5 people per bellator, which means the bellators will mainly stall against attacks, and the fight takes longer. Try to have them outnumbered by a comfortable margin, but don't overdo it. The number of your defenders should be less than three times the number of bellators, 1.5 times should be enough. If the situation gets tight, pull people from stations sparingly to pad out your numbers. Contrary to what most think, the station you can take most people away from without hurting the ship is sails. EDIT: Bellators will now hang around your ship if you exit, and come back once you reenter the board. To deal with this with high numbers of bellators, good communication with the naver is needed. Get as many people to volunteer that you can trounce them. A clearing fight like this can be done within the safe zone, without the risk of new bellators boarding. To get it over with quick, tell people to throw their challenges in the safe zone, if you're gonna have a big fray, individual challenges will only delay the desired effect. Then start the fray, fight it out in the safe zone, and get a clear ship. EDIT2: As the MAA is the person defenders should listen to, he/she can give out teaming strategies. I have personally found that it works to give out the strategy to kill allectus first, then eparchos, then kybernete, then bellator. These are their ranks, from highest to lowest. I could be mistaken about the effects, as I don't have a reliable sample, but in my experience with this advice given out, the sea cucumber was beaten more often than with just "teams of 3". The reasoning is of course, that with the hardest guys taking out first, while your board is still fairly uncluttered, the sum of attacks coming is decreased more than when you kill bellators first. MOAR EDIT: Remind people to volunteer and re-volunteer. When someone accepts a 1-on-1 challenge they are automatically unchecked from the defenders list, but not rechecked once they finish, win or lose. Over time your defnders will get challenged, which can lead to dwindling defender numbers. Also, allow people to re-volunteer: As you can currently only volunteer when there is no fray going on, and at some point you're fighting frays back to back, give your waiting would-be volunteers a warning when they can get back in. Ideally there's "fray about to end" and "those waiting, volunteer now", which should be enough to catch people's attention while not being too spammy. If you make the effort to go that extra league and manage fights well, your ship should be better equipped to handle larger numbers of bellators, and the fights should for the most part be short and sweet. Planking: For some reason, people still like to put TH over the well-being of the ship. Generally, the rule should be to TH when you can, unless told differently. Sadly, this won't always work. So the rule needs to be enforced. If someone runs to TH in a damage control situation repeatedly, do not hesitate to plank, and make it public what they did wrong. Even worse, if someone abandons a bellator fray to TH, they should be planked with swiftness. Managing Jobber turnover: One turn before leaving the board to reenter, the XO should make a ship broadcast for people to contact their hearties, so you fill quickly while at the LP. Jobbers should be told whether you're leaving for port or to go back in, people who have to hop should be encouraged to do so right on leaving the board. I've seen it way to often that people don't know what's going on, spam "we gonna port?" for a while, then, when the naves shouts "going back in" decide to bail. Give them information, so they can make an informed decision quickly. Don't hesitate to job people from the battle board while on your way out. Inform them via crew chat that you'll be out shortly and will yell. The shorter you sit at the league point waiting, the better for morale. ~-~-~-~-~ That's all I can think of right now, I'd very much appreciate discussion and the addition of Thanks. Edited for better readability and to keep trace of the updates. ---------------------------------------- Mullins on Midnight, Stinks on Ice Have a problem with me in Game Design? Read this I'd call him a sadistic, hippophilic necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse. ---------------------------------------- [Edit 3 times, last edit by AlfMason at Sep 28, 2007 8:47:24 AM] |
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CashCarStar
Joined: Mar 4, 2004 Posts: 1210 Status: Offline |
Quick thought, probably belongs in GD - but would it be beneficial for the message to say "Soandso has abandoned a carpentry station" or "Soandso has abandoned a bilge station"? Also, I don't XO very often, as I really like puzzling, but when I have, I have found tells to be extremely effective with individual lazing pirates. I tell them directly and upfront that I really don't want to plank them, but that I'll have to if they don't get to work or something. I feel it's appreciated more because they know I'm not calling them out on /vessel. Also, it's way more personal and shows I'm paying attention. ---------------------------------------- Festrunk - Viridian |
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lesleywalker
Joined: Dec 24, 2006 Posts: 1186 Status: Offline |
Personally (from the jobber point of view) I'd prefer not to see those messages at all in Atlantis. There are so many of them they get in the way of the stuff you need to see (ie whose turn to TH and other orders). I'm quite convinced that a lot of the problems people have are due to orders being lost in the noise. Maybe there should be a control for XO (similar to what the MAA has?) to set a maximum on the number who can TH and maybe organise teams. (Yes, this is GD stuff, but it makes sense to formulate ideas first in order to present a sensible proposal) ---------------------------------------- Rumbletum - FO, Crimson Sabers, Colbalt Cheery - Alchemist, Ankh-Morpork City Watch, Cobalt Jinxed Idol links |
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chupchup
Joined: Aug 4, 2006 Posts: 1171 Status: Offline |
Heartily endorse! Now make it so they are only visible to officers on the ship. And take the jobbing messages and make them only visible to officers in crew, and we're golden. ---------------------------------------- The pirate formerly known as Ljamethyst.
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sammybingo
Joined: Jul 10, 2006 Posts: 1018 Status: Offline |
I like what Mullins wrote muchly. I've only done these jobs once or twice, steep learning curve, here's a bit of what I grasped. I strongly concur with the "All defend" then the MAA can select who will enter each fray accordingly. If one is purely acting as MAA, and accordingly have time, there is some chance you can also try to get it so everyone has a go, and check stats to see who are the strongest fighters on board. It might also be worth thinking about giving SFers a break every now and then - fray after fray after fray can really drive you a bit loopy, and I know I can lose my focus after about 6 back to back. Tells are a really good way for getting people to station, and ask nicely :) People respond to requests that much more happily if they think they are doing something ace for you, rather than if they feel like they are at school. And don't hesitate to plank ANYONE who leaves a fray to TH (unless the timing was a bit off - I started a fray at the same time the TH option came up and had half the group accidentally hop out of it - oops. Keep an eye on when TH will be available!) and make an example of them. Anyone who doesn't have a big bucket of team spirit is a waste of space on a ship. Oh, and try to keep an eye out on Gunners. If they all get challenged (it has happened), ruhoh, hop on yourself if you have to, before the navver runs out. Sucks to have no boomy. A note to navvers though - if leaving the board to clear off beasties or anything, warn your XO, as there may be a few free spots, and a waiting list :D thirty seconds at the LP can't hurt that much? I hope?! It might be worth poking your XO in advance of the TH option coming up, if they haven't noticed, to say "No TH" if needed. Some newbos like me might not notice its coming. Oh, and if you forget to start a fray and too many beasties are on board, be honest and tell the navver he might want to consider the safe zone. Dead embarassing :S I heartily endorse a thread for tips on these jobs - it is a bit daunting (but super fun) to have a go the first time. I hope I learnt from my errors last time hehe. I think the best XO's are the ones who remember it IS a game and make everything seem a bit lighthearted, and say please and thank you, can't buy manners. ---------------------------------------- Sammybingo of all oceans but Opal. I speak for myself, and myself alone. I do not represent any flag or crew. PFFT. Mightyboosh's fruit protection advice:
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Rolld20
Joined: Aug 1, 2007 Posts: 799 Status: Offline |
Not to add too much complexity, but it might be good for the CO to assign someone as 'liason' to the jobbers, in charge of making announcements. Jobbers like/need to know: whether the ship will be porting or returning, what stations need to be filled, when *not* to TH, and whether they're doing something deleterious and in danger of planking. That's really too much for the Bnaver to keep track of. Oh, once when I joined an Atl trip, I ran around looking for an open station and saw 4-5 sleepers or DCs. The liason officer could be in charge of booting these deadweights, too. ---------------------------------------- Greyrat of Viridian -------------
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starrarose
Joined: Aug 23, 2004 Posts: 6123 Status: Offline |
That's generally what an XO does. Well, it's what *my* XO's do and it's what I do when XOing. ---------------------------------------- Phoenix - Black Plague to the core, Flag may change randomly.
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sweetnessc
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 16105 Status: Offline |
When I XO I use an escalating warning system. Start with a 'is something wrong?' tell, a 'please take an x station', finishing with a vessel wide warning about it being their third warning and they'll be planked if they don't station up. Usually followed by cheers upon said planking. ---------------------------------------- My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton Sublime is shame. |
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CashCarStar
Joined: Mar 4, 2004 Posts: 1210 Status: Offline |
I don't like asking someone if something is wrong, because I feel that is too indirect. I don't want to be harsh, but I don't like layering my intentions that way. ---------------------------------------- Festrunk - Viridian |
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sweetnessc
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 16105 Status: Offline |
Well, it's usually a little longer than that, is there something wrong? Is there a reason you're not taking a station? And sometimes there is a reason, which is fine, if they let me know. ---------------------------------------- My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton Sublime is shame. |
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AlfMason
Joined: Jul 20, 2006 Posts: 1396 Status: Offline |
Added some improvements and adjusted it to the new updates. ---------------------------------------- Mullins on Midnight, Stinks on Ice Have a problem with me in Game Design? Read this I'd call him a sadistic, hippophilic necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse. |
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jjw
Joined: Jun 17, 2004 Posts: 340 Status: Offline |
Thanks Mullins! I MAA'd for Lee today for my first time, and this helped A LOT! ---------------------------------------- Lamora Managing to stay away from the game, but still a bit addicted to Parley. |
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AlfMason
Joined: Jul 20, 2006 Posts: 1396 Status: Offline |
And edited again, hope I can take out that edit again, if OOO implement some minor changes that make things more manageable. ---------------------------------------- Mullins on Midnight, Stinks on Ice Have a problem with me in Game Design? Read this I'd call him a sadistic, hippophilic necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse. |
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tlz_allen
Joined: Dec 7, 2004 Posts: 2428 Status: Offline |
Just as an aside, to anyone who MIGHT be thinking that ignoring challenges is a good idea, I submit my tale of woe entitled, "Dude! Where's my ship!" ---------------------------------------- TlzAllen Captain, The Dawntreaders |
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AlfMason
Joined: Jul 20, 2006 Posts: 1396 Status: Offline |
As has been stated in the game documentation AND on the wiki. Sorry, Allen, but no sympathy there, you had the opportunity to find out what you were getting into. However, ignoring individual challenges is by no means always bad. I haven't included it, because it's a touchy subject with some, and I try to give the points a majority can get behind. But here's my take: 1) While MAAing, I don't accept individual challenges, because 2-5 minutes of SF-vision can make me miss the point to start a fray, communication with my naver and various other things. As MAA I will lead my volunteers in the large frays (read: "leading" as die first due to incompetence), so I can watch the fray, see if people leave to TH and all that jazz. But I have enough to watch and coordinate to choose not to afford the time for individual challenges, mass frays will sometimes have to do on bigger ships. 2) If I'm being a good, not so very puzzle-visioned jobber and look at the damage meters, I may decide that the dragoon challenging me can be left to the defenders. Say carp is at 60% and bilge has to keep dry to keep us going, I'll gladly give the defenders a little more work, doing my best to keep the ship mobile, than losing my sparkle and letting us get swamped. Sometimes you're more valuable on a station than in a 1-on-1 3) The lazy approach - designated defenders do not fight 1-on-1. If you allow yourself the luxury of having designated defenders, you want to have them there for every fray, 1-on-1 unchecks them without rechecking them, which makes things hard to manage for the MAA at times. Some people (not me) will therefore forbid their defenders to go 1-on-1. This guide as I wrote it is intended for war frigates. It works for brigs too. Basically, with having to defend, you want a ship that allows lazers, i.e. has less available duty stations than max numbers. I haven't seen baghlahs out yet, and I don't really want to see them - they're my personal XO/MAA nightmare. Dhows aren't really that good either, but easier to handle due to smaller numbers. The sloop calls for a special approach, and I think I have some idea. 1) on a sloop, your SFers should be hand-picked, no less than renowned, so they can beat their 1-on-1s reliably. 2) your best SFer will be MAA, and be your 1-man backup fray, taking fray dragoons on 1-on-1. If you get more than 1 battle-ready dragoon, have him pull someone off station, but mainly, they should deal with the dragoons that make it through the initial challenge. 3) If you can station/nav in multiship combat, you win big time. If you can't, you're looking at the following: 1 naver, 3 sailors (one MAA/defender, one to double on carp/bilge if damaged/challenged and defend in frays if you can't get out and have 2 battle-ready bots) , 1 carper, 1 bilger, 1 gunner (doubles on carp/bilge when damaged, not when challenged). On a sloop it's probably easiest to gear the times of intense shooting to damage, and having the guns silent for a while is something that has to happen at times Be sure to compensate your station-hopper (3rd sailor) if the chest division goes against them in favor of the people sticking with one duty. But generally, I'd say Atlantis is best taken on on brigs and frigs, and smaller ships have very small chances of really rocking. ---------------------------------------- Mullins on Midnight, Stinks on Ice Have a problem with me in Game Design? Read this I'd call him a sadistic, hippophilic necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse. |
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Demeter
OceanMaster Joined: Sep 6, 2003 Posts: 3660 Status: Offline |
Stickying this (temporarily) because it's useful. A point from my personal experience, however: don't just automatically plank people leaving the fray without checking if they had a reason to do so...I left immediately on a recent Atlantis mission because the fray had ~25 defenders against 10 saboteurs, with some damage to the ship, and I was way more useful bilging. I explained in chat, but because anyone in a puzzle has very reduced chat visibility, the explanation may not have been seen. ---------------------------------------- "Demeter is sneeeaky." Trickykid Avatar by Greylady |
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Flamez911
Joined: May 4, 2006 Posts: 3720 Status: Offline |
Just a note: Leaving and re-entering is still a very effective strategy. Why? Because it sets all the dragoons to "Challenging" again. This means that they will be staggered when they get to Battle Ready, and that the navver can wait in the safe zone and tell everyone on the ship to volunteer. It should take about 3 frays to clean out 20-30 dragoons. (I tell my navver to go in when we go over 15, but they can go up more on the way back into the safe zone.) ---------------------------------------- -Flamer, reloaded. Currently in the process of arising from the grave. Hope to see people around more :) |
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CashCarStar
Joined: Mar 4, 2004 Posts: 1210 Status: Offline |
Upon re-entry, clear dragoons and carp/bilge before bouncing in and out to get on the correct side. Jobbers don't like unexpectedly bouncing in and out, and it makes fighting the frays easier if people know they can actually get to fight them. Furthermore, your carpers won't have their sparklometers reset to stone cold, the way six/seven in-outs does. After fixing/clearing dragoons, announce to every one that you intent to enter Atlantis for the other side. It's just good to let people know things like that. ---------------------------------------- Festrunk - Viridian |
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avengeer
Joined: Sep 5, 2007 Posts: 279 Status: Offline |
I've seen (and been on, and done) many successful atlantis runs on Baghlahs and Dhows. 1k+items / jobber / hour looks pretty good for me for a 1st time atlantean runner :P ---------------------------------------- Avenger of Malachite Ex-Avenger of Sage
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AlfMason
Joined: Jul 20, 2006 Posts: 1396 Status: Offline |
The reason I'd advise against the use of baghlahs is the lack of lazers. With the ship's might, you're still likely to get 3 dragoons to fight off at a time, and to find 5-6 defenders to take them out, you're bound to leave one station undermanned. The extra buffer of lazers a brig adds to your defenders can be extremely useful. ---------------------------------------- Mullins on Midnight, Stinks on Ice Have a problem with me in Game Design? Read this I'd call him a sadistic, hippophilic necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse. |
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jjw
Joined: Jun 17, 2004 Posts: 340 Status: Offline |
A ship I was on tonight was told to spike all one-on-one challenges. I hadn't heard of this before (and was somewhat chastised for it). Theories on whether this is a good idea or a bad one? ---------------------------------------- Lamora Managing to stay away from the game, but still a bit addicted to Parley. |
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sweetnessc
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 16105 Status: Offline |
This is my analysis on that so far.
---------------------------------------- My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton Sublime is shame. |
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Rolld20
Joined: Aug 1, 2007 Posts: 799 Status: Offline |
My CO's usually tell people to refuse challenges *unless they think they can handle it*. If someone is Able SF/Master+ Duty, it is detrimental for them to waste valuable puzzle time on a SF they will probably lose. A more skilled fighter might enjoy the occasional challenge to break the monotony of duty-puzzling, and if they win 50+% of the time, I say they should go for it. With the MAA's permission, of course. :) ---------------------------------------- Greyrat of Viridian -------------
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sweetnessc
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 16105 Status: Offline |
What if it's fun for them to play a dragoon challenge, and the ship has enough bodies that it can backfill the duty station? ---------------------------------------- My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton Sublime is shame. |
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Rolld20
Joined: Aug 1, 2007 Posts: 799 Status: Offline |
True, Sweetness. :) Having fun overrides other considerations, so long as the fun of others is not impaired. :D ---------------------------------------- Greyrat of Viridian -------------
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tulcia
Joined: Jan 16, 2007 Posts: 103 Status: Offline |
Not sure, maybe someone said that... but I think there should be something like... <Name> ignored/declined challenge from <sea food> I'm always tellin them to "Accept ALL challenges", but for some people it's just bla bla bla talkin. I wish I could see who's ignoring/declining. Good idea is... maybe only Officers and up could see who's leaving station (and what station). Because I know that when TH button comes... people leaves like crazy, and I'm more than sure that people won't see even if I will shout 10 times to stop THing. And IF there could be some blockade for that darn TH button... *dreaming*. Dunno why, but people loves to sabotage the ship (sure, this is not their crews/own ship) with that TH thing - then no matter what damage, how many goons... Same thing with frays and leaving them for TH. Also - If I can order someone to be MaA.. why I can't order someone to defend the ship? Then even if in "puzzle vision"... people can see it. ---------------------------------------- Just Elennka Hypnos says, "I got my money! Screw you guys, I'm going home!" |
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da_ripper
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3482 Status: Offline |
Wow, I just XOed on a Flotilla, not a Atlantis, but wow. it is hard. What do you do if the majority of the ship is TH-ing, and no one is listening? And if you start planking, it is the people who were just about to go out of it, then they start cussing at you? ----------------------------------------
Chimeravirus of Viridian. |
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sweetnessc
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 16105 Status: Offline |
Atlantis XOing is a million times harder than flotilla. The key to the TH problem seems to be nipping it in the bud the first time it arises. Tell people what the rules will be before you enter, remind them when it's about to come up, then plank the first person to thaul without permission - that tends to smarten them up pretty quickly. If it's a crisis where that's not working, get the nav to move out of the treasure haul zone so you can get attention back to the chat screen, and start over. ---------------------------------------- My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton Sublime is shame. |
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Dougerarg
Joined: Apr 4, 2005 Posts: 1554 Status: Offline |
I could not agree more with the bit about how XOs should treat their jobbers well adn not create a bad atmosphere. It's really true! Everytime I do that my jobbers tend to stay longer- meaning I can hang out in Atlantis longer without rejobbing- not to mention they seem to work harder. ---------------------------------------- Scervy of Hunter Omnis on Sage Retired YPP player. Miss all my old pals from long ago |
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Shaimus
Joined: May 25, 2006 Posts: 1174 Status: Offline |
While it might seem odd When you want to TH try using the general command button "The captain wants more pirates to Treasure Haul" It will more than likely get you a small laugh and happier jobbers who are more use to seeing the opposite ---------------------------------------- Shaimus on All Oceans, but mainly Sage RogueOM Squad - Wiki links - Makes it easier for me as well http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Rogue_OM_Squad_VII_Neapolitan http://www.phpbbplanet.com/roms/index.php?mforum=roms |
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