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tanonev

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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since you cant right click on the other pirate games, id bet you wouldn't be able to in this one either. so moving immediately to the final spot probably couldn't happen.

in response to tanonev, "test to see whether the last grid location fits the current block position" if im understanding correctly...that wouldn't work if there was more than one place a block could rest.
the final spot doesn't work, so it checks the spot before it. since it would be resting on top of something, it would seem to fit the starting location when its clear that the block should have fallen into the first hole

checking each space as you move seems like it would be the best way to fix it


Sorry, by "last" I meant "previous," as in the last location it was in before it was moved.
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Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian.
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[Jul 3, 2007 9:38:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
Uikur

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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When I originally was thinking of the game, this wasn?t supposed to happen - the piece would just fall down. However, as I started to program the game, I realized that trying to get this behavior would be very computer intensive. Basically, the game would have to check the block?s position at every pixel if I wanted a 30 pixel wide block to fall into a 30 pixel wide space. Only when the block is perfectly aligned with the space, then it should fall. However, Loosejaw runs at 30 frames per second and it is fairly easy to move more than one pixel per frame so I would either have to increase the frame rate considerably or do some programming work-arounds.

I could make the game much more rigid and discrete but I didn't like it when I tried it, it just seemed a little too rigid.


It's been a while since I worked with Flash (and I didn't do much with it), but from what I remember and what I've seen people do with it, one of Flash's greatest strengths and also one of its greatest weaknesses is its integration of logic and presentation. My personal view of puzzle games is that while the presentation can (and ideally should) be fluid, the logic should remain discrete. In other words, while the animation can show 30-pixel-wide blocks that can be at any pixel position, shouldn't the logic treat the block as residing in some grid location?

If the game logic is too tightly bound to the interface, you end up with behavior like this.


I think you forgot the / in [/url] on the end.
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Just my thoughts.

Check out my proposal (Project Compere) here. Feedback and/or a coder is requested!

Irinam of Viridian.
[Jul 3, 2007 10:17:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
actreal

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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I agree that the default speed should start slower and build up to about where it is now - that is about the edge of my comfort level for a crafting puzzle.


While I agree it shouldn't be too fast as it is a crafting puzzle, if you are getting vegases easily (my definition of comfortable), then it is not fast enough. Your definition of comfortable may differ.

 
Yes, the individual hammer clicks are a bit tedious, however, the way I play I would not want to have it auto select the first five in the immediate vicinity.


I agree. My suggestion is that you have to click all 5 pieces but you don't have to get them exactly in order which would make the mechanism easier to deal with IMHO.

 
Switching to ending when the last hammer session is over would end up with exactly the same optimal strategy as SW: try to get large combos with big pieces at the end, finish your next-to-last combo one away from the last piece in the order, end with as large a combo as possible. I think variety would be better. On the other hand, there may be less of a scoring ceiling if you go with a more open-ended game (possibly avoiding the distilling problem).

What does everyone else think?


I have changed my mind a couple of times on this, but I think a fixed end point would be a good differentiator to SW.

The distilling problem won't occur to anywhere near the same extent because it is impossible to get a "maximum combo" - a Vegas^21 of all 3 length boards. The distilling problem is caused by the fact that individual Crystal Clears are easy and the maximum combo length can be reached.
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Donall of Hunter

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[Jul 3, 2007 3:10:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CraftingProj

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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Due to the Widow Queen's attack on Beta this coming Saturday, I find myself forced to modify the time schedule for the Loosejaw round.

The Loosejaw logic puzzle will be posted on July 13th. New deadline for the Loosejaw portion of this event ends noon Sunday, July 15th. Feedback to this thread continues until the new deadline.

CraftingProj, when you have a moment, please edit the first post in this thread to give the new times. Thankee!


Done. And good luck with the blockade!
[Jul 4, 2007 5:08:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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Thankee CraftingProj! The Widow Queen was vanquished, and I am starting to work on the Loosejaw logic puzzle. It will be posted on Friday of this week*, with deadline of noon Sunday. Contestant feedback to this thread continues until that same deadline.


*Fine print: "God willin' and the crick don't rise"
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jul 9, 2007 12:43:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
kierra214

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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More bonus piece brainstorming:

I was looking at the Loosejaw proposal, and noticed the part about crushing the upholstery pieces which is not implemented yet. I thought up a slight variant of that idea, which I think would fit better with the idea of bonus pieces having a downside.

Glass
Another 1 segment long wild-card piece that gives some kind of bonus when used in a piece of furniture. It could be crushed as in the proposal, but instead of disappearing, the glass would become cracked and useless (unable to be cleared). I haven't decided if it would be better to have the shattered piece movable or not. On one hand, I’m not sure how annoying you'd want to make this piece. But on the other hand, it would be dangerous to handle the broken glass. Another idea would be to have a small point deduction for moving it.

With this piece you would need to use some kind of sanity check for its placement on the conveyor to prevent it being crushed immediately upon falling onto the board, probably just something making sure it is only generated on the top row of the conveyor.
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Magrat
SO of Polish War Fog
Viridian
[Jul 10, 2007 3:01:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gonzola



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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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1) Was the quickstart helpful in learning how to play?

Yes, the quickstart guide was quite helpful. However, mentioning the indestructible pieces might be good, too.

2) How easy was it to learn to play?

It was very easy to learn to play. The instructions explained most of it adequately, and the rest, I picked up easily.

3) What is the addiction factor? Do you have to force yourself to play it a few more times in order to give decent feedback, or does it tempt you to keep playing when you have other things to do? (or somewhere in the middle)

It's somewhere in the middle. It doesn't bring me pain to play; yet, I wouldn't pass up lemon pie to continue.

4) Separate from the addiction, is playing the game fun?

The game is fun enough that I would play it if it were in Puzzle Pirates. Distilling is more fun, but I believe that this game has potential.

5) Does the analogy work for furnishing?

Yes. Building blocks of the same color with a hammer equates to hammering pieces of wood together. I was pleased with how different this game was in comparison to the other block pattern games such as swordfighting or shipwrightery.

6) Approximately how long does it take you to play a typical game on a given level, using the default end condition of 25 pieces of furniture? Does this time feel too long, too short, or about right?

It takes approximately 8 minutes at the default settings. That's probably about right for a crafting puzzle.

7) What do you think of the default conveyor speed? Too fast or too slow, or about right?

Speeding up the conveyor at the default settings makes it a little difficult to play at first. Slowing it down could bore new players enough that they wouldn't play it. The default speed is good for beginning players.

8) What is your favorite part of the game?

I like being able to move the blocks after they are down. Because of playing other similar games, it's a little surprising at first how quickly they drop to the bottom, but once I got used to that it was very cool to be able to fill up all the little spaces after the blocks were already down.

9) If you had to choose only one of the options below for increasing difficulty, which would be a better method? Better meaning tougher but not frustratingly tough.
Increasing the number of colors

Increasing the conveyor speed

Increasing the number of pieces required for furniture.

Increasing the conveyor belt would be the best method. It makes for a quicker paced game without making it impossibly difficult. Increasing the number of colors makes it very difficult because of a limited top level. This gets a bit frustrating. Increasing the number of pieces required for furniture has essentially the same problem (to a lesser degree) in that the pieces are easily separated from one another by the other colors before the appropriate number of matching pieces are available.


10) If you played with the "Score Scaling" slider, did you notice a difference in the game at the lowest setting versus the highest setting?

I haven't tried this one yet and will have to come back to it.

11) If you had a preference for the Score Scaling slider, which setting did you find the most fun? Low, middle, high?

Same answer as 10 for now.

12) The occasional bug regarding overlapping pieces is known. If you spot other bugs, please report them. If you can tell how to reproduce the bug, it is worth more points.

Sometimes, when moving a piece, it is difficult to let go of the piece. I click to move the piece and then have to click again to let the piece go, because the piece doesn't automatically stay where I drop it when I click the button. This was not only annoying, but also lost me a small amount of time.

13) If there is something that you think would significantly help the game, please post about it as well. What would make the game more fun?

One problem is that when clicking the pieces to make a piece of furniture, it is very easy to misclick a piece that I don't mean to click. When this happens, the way the game is set up, I have to start over with the first piece of that set. So, I may have already clicked 4 pieces and misclick as I'm going for the 5th. Then I have to start with the first one again. I believe that if this were fixed, I would have more time to play the game and then the conveyor belt could be sped up. This would make the game smoother and faster without the irritation of having to start over repetitively. One possible way to do this would be if I could use the hammer to click once on the blocks of a similar color and all connecting blocks of that color would disappear. For instance, if there were 8 blocks of the same color touching and you were to click the hammer once on them, all 8 would disappear. If 5 blocks were necessary to create a piece of furniture, there could be a bonus for the extras. Conversely, the extras could be used against the player. The extra blocks could go into the pool and raise the likelihood that indestructible blocks would drop. Any way the cookie crumbles, I would have more fun if the pattern were completed in one click rather than in multiple clicks. Also, it would be great if I moved the conveyor belt forward one click by hitting the space bar.
[Jul 12, 2007 8:08:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
kierra214

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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However, mentioning the indestructible pieces might be good, too.

What indestructible pieces? The funny colored pieces are upholstery. They are wildcard pieces, but you need to click a standard color block first before you can select the upholstery piece. Using one of these pieces in your furniture triples its score.
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Magrat
SO of Polish War Fog
Viridian
[Jul 13, 2007 6:00:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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Loosejaw logic puzzle is now available. See this post for the link.

If you have questions, either email me or send me a PM. Don't post anything that might give a hint to other players!
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jul 13, 2007 8:10:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
zay_bex

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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1. Very helpful

2. Only took me a few minutes to get the hang of it.

3. It is quite addictive when I'm actually playing, but it would not be an option when I think "I'm bored, what to do?"

4. Honestly, not really. Sometimes the pieces get stuck to my mouse, and that's annoying.

5. I really didn't know why they decided to try this for furnishing. After all, furnishing does not just involve wood. But I also didn't understand why we make rumble weapons with the shipwrightery puzzle.

6. I'm guessing about 10 minutes when I'm on my normal, fast connection speed. (I'm away from home for the event!)

7. The default conveyor speed is a wee bit too fast for me on this connection... it was blocked before I could get to Bingo.

8. Well, I don't really like it... I dislike the simplicity, I dislike the easiness, I dislike the conveyor belt moving... it's too much like shipwrightery, but it's freer. The multiple clicking I have to do to clear a piece is monotonous when going for Vegases.
I guess I like it best with 6 colors and size 7, it's actually kind of fun with that type of challenge.

9. Increasing colors and conveyor speed would make the most sense since increasing pieces required would confuse people who constantly move up and down in rank. Just increasing colors would remind us of bilging, but just increasing conveyor speed would be no threat to an Ultimate.

10. 11. Didn't play with it.

12. Just the overlap bug. And when pieces stick to the mouse.

13. Stop the pieces from sticking, maybe clear furniture in one click, or click and drag, like distilling, where if you drag over an illegal move it won't move, so if you drag over a piece of a different color it just wouldn't select. Umm... and make a "move conveyor" button like in distilling, that's handy occasionally.
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Zaybex of Sage

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[Jul 13, 2007 8:59:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://zaybex.com/ypp/ [Link]  Go to top 
tanonev

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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I'm going to make an "out there" suggestion: Introduce length-4 pieces, and get rid of the conveyor belt entirely. Instead, the board is always filled to the top, but pieces have a fair amount of empty space between them. This will drastically shift the gameplay focus, which is why it's an "out there" suggestion. Instead of focusing on rapid sorting of pieces, the player will have to plan carefully to filter pieces of the appropriate color into the right places. Personally, I'd prefer that kind of focus, since it is a "crafting" puzzle project, not a "factory assembly line" puzzle project.

I doubt this big a change would make it in time for Round 2. If furnishing isn't taken, a second version of Loosejaw could be made for Round 3 with this mechanic?
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Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian.
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[Jul 14, 2007 2:37:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
tanonev

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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Variant of the overlap bug: http://www.alpha-slash.com/ypp/loosejaw2.avi

This time, no mouse input whatsoever; simply holding down the Space button. One time, a piece got stuck on the inside of the conveyor belt as a result of this behavior, but I couldn't videotape that instance.
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Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian.
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[Jul 14, 2007 4:45:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Re: Logical Crafting: Loosejaw contestant feedback thread Reply to this Post
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Loosejaw event is now closed. Winners and solution will be announced Tuesday if not sooner.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jul 15, 2007 12:04:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Solution is now posted

Congratulations to the winners of the Loosejaw round! We had five players who submitted correct solutions, good explanations, and also gave significant feedback on Loosejaw.

The winner of the sloop "Logical Loosejaw" is Magrat of Viridian. It was an extremely difficult judgment to make. Because of the closeness of the tie, Tanonev of Sage wins his choice of either pie or cake (or accumulate for larger prize at end of the event).

The other three runners-up are
  • Donall of Hunter
  • Jesroo of Midnight
  • Zaybex of Sage
Each of these runners-up will get a cookies trinket (your choice of regular or chocolate chip).

Each runner-up should contact me via PM or email, providing several possible days and times that would be convenient for collecting your cookies. I'll get back to you on which one suits my own schedule.

If you plan to enter the next round of Logical Crafting, and just want to let any prizes ride for a while, tell me so I can save your cookies. Don't want them to get stale.... ;-) If you have three not-yet-picked-up cookies, you may choose pie or cake instead.

This page will remain online indefinitely, with the version of Loosejaw that makes the logic puzzle work correctly.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by tcarr at Jul 16, 2007 7:44:25 PM]
[Jul 16, 2007 11:12:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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