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Cady36



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Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Hope I did all of this correctly.

2-8 player cooperative construction puzzle.

GCPP:Proposal-Messmate

This proposal is pretty rough - I came up with the idea yesterday afternoon, after 36 hours with no sleep, and part of this document was actually written in that state. I just slammed the rest of the text/pictures together today in between work tasks today. There are a zillion details to be worked out, so I hope you can make sense of the document in all its vagueness.

Pardon the "artwork" /me is not an artist. There will be more diagrams, hopefully tomorrow, which will help explain movement and such a bit better, demonstrate the "hidden" parts of the planks, etc.

Thanks for any comments, even "Ack! That doesn't look fun at ALL!"

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jun 18, 2007 2:40:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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This looks interesting, but as usual I would find a storyboard with pictures extremely useful to understanding how the game actually works.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jun 18, 2007 2:56:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cady36



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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Coming right up. I didn't wanna work today anyway. ;-)

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jun 18, 2007 3:11:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Hmmm... ye caught my attention :) it looks interesting, well thought out, and unique - I look forward to seeing more.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jun 18, 2007 4:06:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cady36



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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Added two examples to the bottom of the Wiki page, one showing the initial boards for a four player game, for all four players, and one demonstrating how the planks and holes are moved.

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jun 18, 2007 6:08:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cady36



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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Added a storyboard. It only covers the point of view of one player, her interaction with her board, her reasoning besides her move decisions and her interaction with the team. It's mostly text as this is a thinking game, not one where everything jumps around on the screen. The move graphic at the bottom of the page gives a good idea of what actually takes place during a move.

It's from the beginning of a game, which is necesarily less complex, and easier to make graphics of, since I'm building my boards in Photoshop - lol.

In building the walk through (thanks, TCarr) I discovered that I actually need a much higher proportion of holes than I'd realized. The real strategy seems to involve the undrilled portion of the board, and the teamwork comes in as you get your teammates to block stones on their board that you aren't able to with yours.

I think it's enough for people to get the idea...just picture the same sort of interaction when the board is half full of stone. (Yikes.)

If you think it should be more detailed, or something isn't clear - please let me know. If so, I might have to try to make a graphic with just the plank movements in Flash, because doing the moves in Photoshop is...ermmm...difficult. (I'm not good enough to code the actual game in Flash, and I'm not certain I'm even good enough to do the plank movement - it's been three or four years since I've touched Flash.)

Thanks,

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jun 18, 2007 10:04:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cady36



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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Gah - may have to withdraw this one...at least from cooperative puzzles, and maybe altogether, because the only thing it really fits with, metaphorically speaking, is construction.

I just realized that a cooperative game that requires communication between players such as I've described, will not work as a cooperative puzzle, because it has a time element.

(/me is a touch typist and doesn't think of stuff like this.)

It would give people who type quickly a huge advantage over those who don't, and I don't think any of the YPP puzzles wants to be a typing test.

I may be wrong, but I think the "time" factor is pretty important from a scoring and risk/reward standpoint. Without the time factor, I can't see any way to judge how good a player is (able to ult)...the only other individual score are the "points" pieces, and the bonus at the end for the number of patches and drills retained.

If anyone has a great idea, let me know. I may just code this up as a single player game in Flash or something...heck, the concept is simple enough that it could be done in a scripting language.

Sorry to take up everybody's time.

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jun 19, 2007 9:46:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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It sounds like an interesting puzzle. If you can code it as a Flash single player game, so that we get a better feel for it, perhaps we can come up with ways to either convert it to another industry for single player, or to be able to handle cooperative multiplayer without it taking forever to play.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jun 19, 2007 10:40:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Oh by all means - do not scrap your idea - it looks far too interesting! Would it work if there were a planning phase and a move phase? In other words, everyone talks for a bit and clicks a ready indicator - once everyone has clicked that then the countdown begins during which moves can be made. I'd have to go back and reread to see if it would be at all practical.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jun 19, 2007 12:31:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Uikur

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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Gah - may have to withdraw this one...at least from cooperative puzzles, and maybe altogether, because the only thing it really fits with, metaphorically speaking, is construction.

I just realized that a cooperative game that requires communication between players such as I've described, will not work as a cooperative puzzle, because it has a time element.

(/me is a touch typist and doesn't think of stuff like this.)

It would give people who type quickly a huge advantage over those who don't, and I don't think any of the YPP puzzles wants to be a typing test.

I may be wrong, but I think the "time" factor is pretty important from a scoring and risk/reward standpoint. Without the time factor, I can't see any way to judge how good a player is (able to ult)...the only other individual score are the "points" pieces, and the bonus at the end for the number of patches and drills retained.

If anyone has a great idea, let me know. I may just code this up as a single player game in Flash or something...heck, the concept is simple enough that it could be done in a scripting language.

Sorry to take up everybody's time.

Kaidi/Midnight


Don't withdraw it! This is the first co-op puzzle I've seen yet!

I have a suggestion. I'll say it later.

(You're not alone; I'm one too)

Yeah. Suggestion for change coming up.

Suggestion almost there...

SUGGESTION (finally): change it from time to moves.
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Just my thoughts.

Check out my proposal (Project Compere) here. Feedback and/or a coder is requested!

Irinam of Viridian.
[Jun 19, 2007 12:33:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Way back I made a suggestion for a game that I thought would be fun as a challenge game (such as drinking.) This game was quite different than your proposal but it did have sliding columns.

Then I started to think about how it might possibly be a cooperative puzzle instead. One thought was that it could be kind of like the cooperation (if somewhat grudgingly given) that happens in the middle of a Chinese Checkers game - where everyone is going to their own target but using other player's pieces to get there. (Do you move your pieces out of the middle - or leave them there for you, and anyone else to jump?)

I decided that I kind of like the idea of having different goals but having to work together on the same playing field. I figured scoring would be split between meeting your own goal and the percentage that each person's goal was reached (so do I do a move that only benefits me or do I do one that gets 2 other people closer to their goal, and thereby improve the group's overall score?)

I don't know if this could help at all (feel free to look at that old idea - it is quite different but it might strike a thought.)
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jun 19, 2007 12:52:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cady36



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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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What I'm gonna *try* to do is temporarily make a 1 person game out of it (where you click the color and it reorders the layers as if you are that player) and see how the moves work, and if it's fun - lol. I may not even have scoring initially - just see how the puzzling feels. I've never seen a computer game like it, and *I* wanna play it, so it's worth doing that, at least.

But...zomg...lol...Windows says I haven't even OPENED Flash for 2 years 2 months. I just opened it up and the control set and actionscript looks ENTIRELY unfamiliar. We'll see. I never did use it to do games, mostly for presentation animations, slideshows, website splash pages and such - lol. This ought to be interesting.

If I can pull this off it'll be ugly and clunky and I'm not sure how to handle the end game, but at least we can see how the puzzling feels.

Re: Basing the individual score on moves or breaking it into two phases. I'll think about these. I'm not sure how either of these would work...TCarr is right, this game kind of needs a prototype before it can be decided whether it is worth making a prototype for! Using number of moves would be kinda tough, because every individual on a team makes the same number of moves as every other player on the team. However, it's possible that by changing the end game constraints or something else, some version of these will work.

Wish me luck. I *think* I can do this, but gonna take a bit - lol. Never made a game.

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jun 19, 2007 4:01:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cady36



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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Ooh. (Just can't shut up today.)

This would be kind of trickier, what if I made it turn based? So that each person made their moves individually? It'd be harder to drop pieces (though perhaps not, if you took the time to work together). The Team score is added to/subtracted from for all drops from all team members, then each individual would get extra points for the ones that he/she dropped.

Might be kind of frustrating, though, to help set up a large, high scoring drop, and have the guy who moves after you get the credit for it ;-)

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jun 19, 2007 4:17:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jdnx429

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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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I love this proposal. It's quite well thought-out and I think it would be quite fun to play. Not sure how much more I can say since it is such a detailed proposal.

Anyways, I think you'll find Flash fairly easy to use for games. I had never made any games either before GCPP but managed to learn quite quickly.
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Josephdaniel on Midnight.
[Jun 25, 2007 3:33:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cady36



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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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lol - I appreciate the vote of confidence!

I made some progress on single player version the week of the 19th - have the planks with random holes generating and the "reorder the layers" button working, which essentially shows you what each of the four players would be looking at. Relearning actionscript is HARD when I am actively SQLing-VBscripting-jscripting every day - lol - it gets kind of confusing, so it's sorta slow going.

Unfortunately, I decided to play poker all night the Saturday night after the 19th (after swearing it off for 2 months - and now swearing it off for ANOTHER 2 months), which resulted in tendonitis, which turned into bursitis, which kept me off the computer except for work until Friday, when my Internet went down for 3 days! lol Should be back at this week, though.

My Flash is MX4, and since I haven't used it since I upgraded it last time - lol - I can't really justify paying for another upgrade for this. Maybe the later versions would be easier, though...I don't know.

It's not as pretty as my Photoshop comps were, and there aren't going to be any "options" to set. (I pity the person who will want to go back into this file and add options - I'm really hacking it together.) I'm hoping in another week or two to have something that plays a very minimal version of the game.

Heck, if I even get things *moving* correctly, I'll post a link here.

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jul 2, 2007 12:06:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cady36



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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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#$*%&( Edit button - lol

I meant Flash MX 2004, of course.

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jul 2, 2007 12:15:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cady36



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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Gah! /me is not a Flash type of person any more - lol.

I just went through my notes in the action script on the stupid thing and I'd have to completely rethink the logic to understand my own notes - lol. I just don't get an interface where you attach little pieces of code to little pieces of graphic, multiplied for ever and ever.

I'm going to try to kick this out in Javascript - I have a much better grasp of that. It'll be even more ugly/clunky but the Flash part that I have done so far (in a few days) I could duplicate in Javascript in an hour or two, so maybe I'll have better luck.

If not, I surrender! lol

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jul 2, 2007 2:46:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jdnx429

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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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...attach little pieces of code to little pieces of graphic, multiplied for ever and ever...


You don't have to attach little piece of code to little pieces of graphics. What I've done is just make a layer that has all the code and control the graphics and objects from there. From the Flash tutorials, that was a strongly recommended method.
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Josephdaniel on Midnight.
[Jul 3, 2007 9:57:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cady36



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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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In order to reorder the layers of stuff in Flash (swapDepths), the elements need to be built dynamically at runtime. The MC which builds the planks, then, was exported for actionscript and has it's own code for building the planks. Same with the arrows that move the planks. Since these items need to use SwapDepths, I can't just build them into the main doc. (lol - took me a day to figure that out.)

I'm sure that part of the problem is that I learned Flash initially in 8 or nine years ago, and it's changed a lot since then. (I remember when they *first introduced* movie clips - lol - I'm old...Flash 3, I think.) As newer versions came out, I picked up the minimum of what I needed to do what I had to do - mostly presentations and stuff. I've never even worked in MX - I upgraded straight from Flash 5 to MX 2004, then never worked in MX 2004 either. It's just not required for what I do any more.

Anyway, actionscript and Flash have changed quite a bit, and I don't think I'm going to have time to relearn and learn what I need to know to pull off a game - lol.

It's just a basic prototype, anyway - I'll just do the basics in Javascript, because that's easy, and if someone else wants to take it further they can. It just sounded like a fun game to me, so I want to just get it to a point where I can play at least the basic version :P

Thanks, though.

Kaidi/Midnight
[Jul 3, 2007 10:46:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CraftingProj

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Re: Puzzle Codename: Messmate - Cooperative Construction puzzle Reply to this Post
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Please let me know the details when you consider that you are officially coding this project, so it can be added to the status board.
[Jul 4, 2007 5:10:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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