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Shuranthae

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Do away with progression difficulties after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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Once a pirate hits Broad or Solid, please do away with progressive difficulty (the star meter levels, or the gunning speed). Give us a way to adjust what difficulty we want to play at. There can be some marker for where the game "suggests" we be at but we can ignore it and play higher than the game would suggest we play. I understand that you don't want the player, especially a new player, to be overwhelmed with something exceedingly beyond their abilities, and that is why I recommend typing the option to Experience. It is rather unjust that a player can't play at a level they're capable of playing at just because their standing doesn't match their actual skill. It is further unjust with the current difficulty, which is dictated by one's standing, impedes our ability to play better and thus even reach the higher level of where we should be playing at.

Although this applies to all duty puzzles, I am particularly concerned with Gunnery. I do not mind not having an Ult, even if I am of that actual skill level. I do not mind that there are many Ults with a higher standing than me simply because they only play at optimal conditions. I do not mind that there is some yahoo with seven characters in the top Ult list that is further making it difficult to get Ults. I mind that all of this crap makes it harder for me to actually load the damn guns because the pieces are moving so freaking slow. I mind even more that because the pieces are moving so freaking slow, I take even longer to gun, and the pieces continue to get slower over time. I mind even most that I have to waste time gunning in the Navy and otherwise cheapass optimal conditions that most Ults fret over simply so I can gun quickly at suboptimal conditions in a future date until I finally lose it again playing suboptimally, and having to repeat the process over.
[Dec 27, 2006 2:35:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Allow us to play "higher" after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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I realized after I wrote this that the title no longer reflects the idea because what I had in mind changed while writing it. So I'm just going to change the title of this post since I can't edit.
[Dec 27, 2006 2:38:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aenor

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Re: Allow us to play "higher" after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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Are you only concerned with duty puzzling, or would you like to see the crafting puzzles adopt this change also? If so, what effect would this have on the economy, if any?
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[Dec 27, 2006 6:53:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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Re: Allow us to play "higher" after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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Interesting to hear that perspective from you, Shur, since the current problem is a byproduct of the changes made in response to the "Ultimate not so ultimate, incredible not so incredible" campaign. However, I agree with everything you said in your post, to the letter. I especially like the new idea of only providing players a slider after a certain experience level. Very sharp.

For reference, lots more talk on the same topic here:

http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=53714
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[Dec 27, 2006 7:01:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: Allow us to play "higher" after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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I'm not really sure how the rating system really affects your ability to perform well in crafting puzzles...

As for the Ultimate/Incredible thread, that's really a thread about performance ability, not ratings. I wanted to be able to perform above Incred level. This thread is also about performance ability, though it is in the opposite direction somewhat in that I don't want ratings to be detrimental to performances.
[Dec 27, 2006 1:33:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CurlyKidd

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Re: Do away with progression difficulties after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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I think the problem, actually, is in the gunning puzzle, and to an existing mechanic. I noticed on Ice that while I hardly ever got above able/distinguished, as my experiance grew, the puzzle did start off a bit faster. The problem I think is that this only happens up until maybe Broad or something, and even then it's only a raise on the low level. The real fix (and there is a fix here required, for the real problems noted) is that say Paragon/Master should be shooting around faster than Broad/Master, and so on.
[Dec 27, 2006 2:47:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    tr1265 [Link]  Go to top 
Greeble

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Re: Allow us to play "higher" after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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Yea I find this really annoying since I often gun and bnav at the same time and get screwed with really slow guns.

-Rob
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[Dec 27, 2006 2:57:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BootHook

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Re: Do away with progression difficulties after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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The real fix (and there is a fix here required, for the real problems noted) is that say Paragon/Master should be shooting around faster than Broad/Master, and so on.


That would punish many of the non-Ult pirates. Many of the people in this game can't handle really fast speeds. If a pirate can only handle Broad/Master speed, and their speed increases when they reach Paragon/Master, their rank might go down because they can't handle the new speed. Your suggestion would encourage people to gun with alts, since their ranking would be higher on an alt.
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[Dec 27, 2006 3:14:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
c_squared01

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Re: Do away with progression difficulties after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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Yay for idea!

My current duty nav play: I know I can get higher scores on the harder puzzles, but I have to play for an hour to get up to those harder puzzles. So, just accept the fact that I don't get to play fun, hard puzzles.

My current sailing play: I hate the hard sailing puzzles, and don't care that I get higher scores on them, because they aren't fun. So, when my standing goes up to Grand-Master, I spend a couple minutes in the navy trashing my standing back down to Master so that sailing doesn't make me want to kill myself.

My current gunning play: That's been covered above.

All these problems would be fixed by the proposal.
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[Dec 27, 2006 3:22:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CurlyKidd

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Re: Do away with progression difficulties after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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The real fix (and there is a fix here required, for the real problems noted) is that say Paragon/Master should be shooting around faster than Broad/Master, and so on.


That would punish many of the non-Ult pirates. Many of the people in this game can't handle really fast speeds. If a pirate can only handle Broad/Master speed, and their speed increases when they reach Paragon/Master, their rank might go down because they can't handle the new speed. Your suggestion would encourage people to gun with alts, since their ranking would be higher on an alt.


My suspicion is that there's many many Paragon/Master (or otherwise non-Ult) that can handle more speed than can't. Also note that I'm not suggesting that Paragon/Master for example should be Ult speed. Maybe something like:
Sublime: Rank + 3 default speed.
Illustrious: Rank + 2 default speed.
Paragon: Rank + 1 default speed.
And maybe just minor tweaks for Expert/Weighty default speeds too, but not full rank-wise.
[Dec 27, 2006 4:13:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    tr1265 [Link]  Go to top 
Rick9109

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Re: Do away with progression difficulties after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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The real fix (and there is a fix here required, for the real problems noted) is that say Paragon/Master should be shooting around faster than Broad/Master, and so on.


That would punish many of the non-Ult pirates. Many of the people in this game can't handle really fast speeds. If a pirate can only handle Broad/Master speed, and their speed increases when they reach Paragon/Master, their rank might go down because they can't handle the new speed. Your suggestion would encourage people to gun with alts, since their ranking would be higher on an alt.


On midnight at least, though, the meat of the gun rank (master-legendaries, mainly-most ults are generally good in game situations too) is largely dependent on how much time you spend on the navy, not how you actually gun in game situations. I really don't think that your should be punished if you don't have time to use the navy, but you are as it is. A controlable speed evens the playing field.

Anyway Shur, I think this is a great idea.
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[Dec 27, 2006 4:48:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    rick9109    cactusrome [Link]  Go to top 
BootHook

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Re: Do away with progression difficulties after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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The real fix (and there is a fix here required, for the real problems noted) is that say Paragon/Master should be shooting around faster than Broad/Master, and so on.


That would punish many of the non-Ult pirates. Many of the people in this game can't handle really fast speeds. If a pirate can only handle Broad/Master speed, and their speed increases when they reach Paragon/Master, their rank might go down because they can't handle the new speed. Your suggestion would encourage people to gun with alts, since their ranking would be higher on an alt.


My suspicion is that there's many many Paragon/Master (or otherwise non-Ult) that can handle more speed than can't. Also note that I'm not suggesting that Paragon/Master for example should be Ult speed. Maybe something like:
Sublime: Rank + 3 default speed.
Illustrious: Rank + 2 default speed.
Paragon: Rank + 1 default speed.
And maybe just minor tweaks for Expert/Weighty default speeds too, but not full rank-wise.


So you're basically saying that people should be rewarded for having incredibly large amounts of free time? I thought these games were supposed to be based on skill? This is just like +5 boots of bilging, that you get just for playing the game for an excessively long time.
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[Dec 27, 2006 5:50:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: Do away with progression difficulties after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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CurlyKidd wrote: 
My suspicion is that there's many many Paragon/Master (or otherwise non-Ult) that can handle more speed than can't.
Ahem. So instead of forcing people to play at levels that are too (s)low or too high for them depending on whether or not their rank is actually where their skill should be, why not just give people the option of playing at whatever speed they want like we're suggesting?

As to go with what someone said about BNaving while gunning earlier, this can go well with variable situations as well. For example, if I'm BNaving I can set the speed to lower to account for the fact that not my full attention is on gunnery (and this can easily have applications with other duty puzzles while BNaving but they'd have to be balanced right). Also, if we're not zero board hunters and get criminally difficult boards that we don't want to simply be cheesy and dismiss at, we can lower the speed to account for the increase in difficulty. I don't mind taking the rating hit for not dismissing a bad board when I "should" but that rating hit shouldn't be a huge one that I have no other control over besides dismissal of the board.
[Dec 27, 2006 6:39:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aenor

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As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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Why not just adjust the rate at which the speed of the pieces adjusts to how well you're loading the guns? Right now, even if you're able, if you're good and you stay on a station long enough, the pieces will start flying around at Ultimate speed. If this happened more quickly, then that would be just as good as a sliding gunning speed. If you were good, you'd ramp up quickly, and if it got too fast for you, throw pieces overboard to slow things down.
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[Dec 27, 2006 7:18:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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It's really not just about gunning, though it's the one that this affects most. And your suggestion assumes that everyone who guns is a board camper.
[Dec 27, 2006 7:28:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BootHook

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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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Why not just adjust the rate at which the speed of the pieces adjusts to how well you're loading the guns? Right now, even if you're able, if you're good and you stay on a station long enough, the pieces will start flying around at Ultimate speed. If this happened more quickly, then that would be just as good as a sliding gunning speed. If you were good, you'd ramp up quickly, and if it got too fast for you, throw pieces overboard to slow things down.


This would reward the people that sit on zero arrow boards, and it would punish the people that need to gun multiple boards. Not all pillages allow their gunners to sit on the same board for the entire pillage.
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[Dec 27, 2006 7:48:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aenor

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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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I guess I just outed myself as a scuppering board farmer.

/e hides in corner
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[Dec 27, 2006 8:45:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
starrarose

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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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I guess I just outed myself as a scuppering board farmer.

/e hides in corner


Pretty much, either board farmer or someone who doesn't pillage on anything larger than a sloop.

To go back to the original part of the thread though, you remember the "Ditch the stars after a certain Experience level" part. Please? Pretty please? I remember pre stars, I remember it well. I've never been able to MP^17+, but I miss the option of being able to beat the MP chains that people have posted in forums around the place. I remember when the only time your Duty Nav wheel cleared was if you left it, ported or booched it - not whenever you made stars that have no real relation to the game fill up. I remember being able to combo constellations after a while because the board was so darn full - no not combo INTO constellations, but double or triple actual constellations. I remember not having to watch your bilge stars to make sure that you'd actually get to set off the three bingo's you'd set up on the board, instead of having one go off and the board wiping itself and hanging on the reload.

Am I slightly whining about the "Good old days?" Just a little, yes, because I don't understand why the changes were brought in that stopped all that kind of thing - and caused more bugs in synchronising than we'd had before.
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[Dec 27, 2006 10:20:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jolyma

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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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I would have to agree with this idea. It would be nice after a day of soloing and murdering my stats to go on a pillage with my hearties and still gun at my usual speed. I've been ultimate before, and I'm sure one of these days, I'll be bored and go work back up, but for the most part I don't care if I stay at legendary, since my pillage hearties know I can handle myself.

Anyway, to quit rambling, how would setting your speed, or difficulty level, affect scoring the puzzle? Would it be possible to nullify scoring if someone chooses to alter their default level? I'm not sure if I can explain myself fully, but I just think there may be an exploit to somehow artificially inflate your stats with changing the difficulty level.
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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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What you're looking for is the return of the gunnery speed slider?
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Pandalink

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Re: Allow us to play "higher" after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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Allow us to play "higher" after a certain Experience


Yes, please.

It's the one of the most irritating things ever in gunning when the speed changes drastically just as you are tentatively flicking pieces into the cannon, and you screw up.

The higher end Sailing puzzles are indeed, not fun. I also get a worse score on them than on the lower end boards.

I don't really notice it in Dnav, although I think it could be useful.
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[Dec 28, 2006 5:22:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CurlyKidd

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Re: Do away with progression difficulties after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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Shuranthae wrote: 
CurlyKidd wrote: 
My suspicion is that there's many many Paragon/Master (or otherwise non-Ult) that can handle more speed than can't.
Ahem. So instead of forcing people to play at levels that are too (s)low or too high for them depending on whether or not their rank is actually where their skill should be, why not just give people the option of playing at whatever speed they want like we're suggesting?


I'm arguing for fixing an existing mechanic, rather than adding a new control, as that's easier / quicker to implement and should still fix the Guns problem, which is the meat of this thread at least.

But Vistr just said there used to be a speed slider, so maybe it wouldn't be too hard to just bring that back, so, whichever.
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BootHook

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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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Anyway, to quit rambling, how would setting your speed, or difficulty level, affect scoring the puzzle? Would it be possible to nullify scoring if someone chooses to alter their default level? I'm not sure if I can explain myself fully, but I just think there may be an exploit to somehow artificially inflate your stats with changing the difficulty level.


If we are allowed to set our speed multiple times on the same board, then it might alter rankings by a lot...

Example 1: Suppose that someone can only handle placing arrows when the pieces are moving at Master speed or less. If they set up a loop, and are waiting for a piece on the other side of the board, then they could probably set the speed up to Ultimate, and move the speed back down to Master when the piece moves near the cannon they want to load.

Example 2: Suppose that someone can only handle taking pieces out of a conga line at Master speed, but otherwise they can handle Legendary speed. They could set the puzzle at Legendary speed, and temporarily move it down to Master speed if they need to separate pieces from a conga line.

Example 3: Suppose that someone messes up, and there is a big risk that a cannon will get loaded with the wrong piece. They might be able to quickly hit "ESC" to pause the puzzle, move the speed down to able, then fix the board before the cannon gets incorrectly loaded.

These examples mean that being able to alter speed multiple times within the same board might cause issues. A better solution might be to allow setting speed, but don't have the speed change take effect until the next board.
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[Dec 28, 2006 7:21:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Benzene265

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Re: Allow us to play "higher" after a certain Experience Reply to this Post
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Funny, I always thought sailing could do with being more crowded. 6 platforms at once isn't enough!





Also, standing does affect the "level" of at least two crafting puzzles. Alchemistry gets more multiple color bottles and a higher chance for Quicksilver or multifill pieces and Shipwright gives you that second 5-square piece around Renowned/GM level. I would say that both puzzles are much easier to score well in at higher levels. Pulling off an incred in able Shipwright requires Vegas chains, while the same level of incred can be had with a mere bingo ending on the two 5-pieces at the ult level.

Of course, a difficulty slider for experience would be useless for a new labor alt, since they start out as novices just like any other greenie.
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Chavez67

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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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What you're looking for is the return of the gunnery speed slider?


Yes please. The unique bit in Shur's version of the suggestion, as opposed to the other two threads on this topic on the front page, is the idea that experience activates the slider. I think that's way cool.


 
This thread is also about performance ability, though it is in the opposite direction somewhat in that I don't want ratings to be detrimental to performances.


Right. This wasn't as big a deal before they changed everybody's ratings to a bell curve, because under the previous system everybody who could be legendary was. Now we've got more legendary players than legendary "slots" on the bell curve, so everyone has to out-stat-whore each other for those slots.

I agree 100% that rating shouldn't be detrimental to performance, that it's a game design flaw and should be fixed, possibly with a slider. My only point was that going to a relative ranking system instead of an absolute ranking system is what uncovered the flaw.

 
A better solution might be to allow setting speed, but don't have the speed change take effect until the next board.


I agree, but I would also like to emphasize that the slider should just effect starting speed, and that speed should still fluctuate up or down depending on how well you're doing.
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SilveRansom

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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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Right. This wasn't as big a deal before they changed everybody's ratings to a bell curve, because under the previous system everybody who could be legendary was. Now we've got more legendary players than legendary "slots" on the bell curve, so everyone has to out-stat-whore each other for those slots.

I agree 100% that rating shouldn't be detrimental to performance, that it's a game design flaw and should be fixed, possibly with a slider. My only point was that going to a relative ranking system instead of an absolute ranking system is what uncovered the flaw.


Hmph. I've never liked the bell curve. I'm usually on the high end of it, so I've benefitted from it, but it feels so... dirty. Absolute ranking is much more representative of ability than relative ranking. Relative ranking is little better than making experience or popularity count in the standing, since it's going to be the stat whores who stay ahead of the curve. May as well play WoW.

Meh. If your ability is sufficient, you shouldn't have to suffer for other players' actions. In other words, if you're looking for a slider or something to tailor your game play, you shouldn't have to deal with relative rankings to determine your gaming. I'm all for a slider for control, and using experience to "unlock" it sounds good to me.
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BootHook

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Can the game be changed so that the max speed is moved down to a lower level? For example, take the current Ult speed, and make it the new Renowed speed. In this case, all the ranks higher than Renowed will be at Renowed speed. It seems horrible that there are so very few slots available for the max speed.
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[Dec 28, 2006 11:19:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jolyma

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The more I consider this the more I like it, and not even from a scoring perspective.

The challenge of a more difficult puzzle is appealing to me. I've gotten high enough in dnav now that on a longer trip, I am getting 3 stars in each ring to fill in. I love it. It is more challenging to get, yet while memming, I have to port, rechart, and restart so often, that I don't get to enjoy that challenge as much as I'd like to.

Being able to increase any of the difficulties appeals to me for much the same reason. When I started playing, the puzzles captivated me, and I was always looking for the next level, that next added bit to make them harder, but once you get so high, you really don't see that. To be able to add difficulty to the puzzles is a wonderful idea, not only for scoring, but for pleasure's sake too. :D
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[Dec 29, 2006 9:32:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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Something like choosing your own star level to suit your needs at hand, whether gunning, navving etc.....http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=50795&offset=0
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Re: As long as this thread is only about gunning anyway... Reply to this Post
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Note a small bump.

I would be a very happy Jelly indeed, were I able to manually adjust puzzle difficulty.

I can see the problems that other people have mentioned; that it is possible to game such a mechanic, that alts could begin life at the highest difficulties. So, as suggested, make the adjustment only once per puzzle (Only applying the change to the next puzzle would only really please gunners, any other puzzle would have to be played out or dismissed), make the adjustment only available after reaching a certain experience. And, of course, the difficulty should be variable after the adjustment, doing better should make it harder, doing worse should make it easier, as it is now.

I don't think that spending six hours a day gunning on the navy is a terribly fun way to spend an evening. Sometimes, I just want to nav, without having to make sure I have time to go a 40 league run, so I get enough of the interesting puzzles. I like to sail when the board is clogged with targets... I enjoy the game more at that level.
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I don't even like peanut butter.
[Jan 27, 2007 4:37:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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