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tcarr

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drat not being able to edit my post.

My own test playing, running in three windows, was wonderful! I didn't want to stop playing, even single player, but team was **great**. On the other hand, I wasn't having to yell at team mates for not cooperating, or for going afk.

I did miss some great scores due to forgetting to place a cart before locking the board. Check that all team members are sure they placed all the carts they are going to, before they start locking!
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 20, 2007 12:36:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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My desktop version now has automatically adjusting difficulty levels. I gave up on separate top scores lists, and just threw all of them into the same list, marked with the difficulty level.

For my own playing, I get way too many hints even if I start on level 3. The higher levels get so few moves that I found myself not acting as a team member. Perhaps we should give every player the same number of moves: enough for one full row/col plus a few extra, but not enough for two full row/cols.

I'm also considering not having the individual player scores count except for a chance at a gem. Just do the team score, and divvy it. Players who do solo row/col will get at least 6 parts of the divvy. Feedback please on this!

I think before trying to work on Party style, I should make some AI bots for team members. The bots would be *bad* team members, just placing fruits at random using their hints and ignoring the clues.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 21, 2007 6:08:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I uploaded the auto-adjusting levels version, then tested using 3 clients. pcarrigan only used hints unless he had a mirror clue (he could use 2 hints on a mirror to finish the row or col). isharsh did not use initials, but knew how to use 2-3 hints on the "each A is immediately to the left of B" type clues, and could sometimes notice other easy placements. tcarr was playing as well as possible.

The levels appeared to adjust well. tcarr would get up to level 5 then not have any hints or enough moves to finish a row/col, so would drop down for next round (with extra fruits on the board from the level 5 one).

Things to fix: when pcarrigan left the game early, his fruits were still being marked as + in later rounds. this led to confusion; the team thought they had a column finished and it wasn't because pcarrigan's column didn't have a cart on it.

What worked: even after all but one player left (and the "Game Over" showed), the sole remaining player could continue to play. And it was fun, discussing which row/col to fill. A team wouldn't have to have a good logic puzzle player to get decent scores. Anybody who gets a mirror clue fills it, then they pool their hints to fill another row or column (or 2).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 21, 2007 9:05:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jesusfreak00

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Hi! this is a really great game, I tried out the cooperative play with a friend of mine this morning and we both found ourselves unable to stop. I would really like seeing this game implemented into PP as a foraging puzzle (but i'm not sure if OOO is planning on having one). I especcially like that it could fit with most any industry.

I noticed that you cant put down a cracker after picking it up if you change your mind. but that isnt a big deal as OOO would be recoding anyway.

also, i would like to see something at the end that shows your total scores for every round, along with a duy report( if that isn't too much to ask)

as for the booch holes, I find that they get very annoying if you end up with one early in the game, could they perhaps go away after a few boards, or if a complete row and/or column is made using said hole? (it would need a teammates help, of course)

if everyone on a full sloop were to play this, it seems that they would be able to fill the entire board almost every round... and certainly so with anything bigger than that. would there be a limit to how many can play at a time?
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Mcsolo, captain of the small crew Gideon's Guild on cobalt.

No, we don't have (or know) anybody named gideon.

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[Jan 21, 2007 7:32:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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This is the early stages of design of Nibbler. The odds are it will still change quite a bit. I do have some concerns about 6+ people playing at one time, but haven't had a chance to actually try it that way.

I'll have to test, but you should be able to put down a cracker by clicking on one of the three fruits at the bottom.

Pleetoo had suggested some way to heal a booch. I'll try to think of one. She suggested using a hint to heal the booch (so that it is a regular location).

The duty report at the end is certainly possible - but we have to have some data on what is a reasonable score first. The equivalent of the crafting report at the end of a puzzle session would be the end of each round, not the full set of rounds. Like I said, it's still early stages of design, and I'm feeling my way to what is an interesting game. I'm glad you enjoy playing it!
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 21, 2007 7:40:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Benzene265

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I noticed that you cant put down a cracker after picking it up if you change your mind.


In the earlier, less social version of Nibbler, if you clicked on a Fruit, it would place the fruit on the board instead of the cracker and drop the cracker back in the Hint Pile. I assume this works the same way.
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A Ghyslaine and a Rhodin for every Ocean, but mostly on Viridian.
Make the natural choice for our oceans: Google Rhodin Blonde!
[Jan 21, 2007 8:31:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Have you considered becoming a well-tanned blonde? [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I've made some minor changes to my desktop version, and will test them today during odd spare moments. If I don't spot any bugs, I'll upload it. New tweaks are:
1. Placing a cracker on a booch tile heals the booch. It does not put a fruit there, just removes the booch, and costs one hint token.

2. Right clicking (or Ctrl-clicking) should drop any cart or cracker you are holding.

3. Player will not be allowed to place a fruit on top of a gem. not that you want to do this, but in making the "heal a booch" tweak I noticed that it appeared to not check for a player trying to do it.

4. Unused moves from one round will be saved for the next round, the way unused hints already are. In both cases, limits are in place so that a player who is afk for three rounds doesn't come back to "wooo - I have enough hints and moves to fill the board completely!".

5. Yet another attempt to remove all pieces from the board of a player who logs off.

After this set of modifications is uploaded, I'll start work on implementing bots. That won't be posted until the weekend at the earliest I'm sure. I'm currently thinking of bots having five possible strategies, and choosing a random assortment of those strategies when a table needs a bot, and when a human player logs off, replacing him with a bot. Just like melees, bots are not team players. The strategies are fairly simple:

Able: Fill random legal spots on the board, until it runs out of hints/moves. (If no hints left, stops even if moves left)

Distinguished: Choose a random row/col, use hints to fill it. Repeat until out of hints/moves.

Respected: Look for a mirror clue. If found, use 2 hints then the 4 extra moves to fill it. Repeat until no mirrors, no hints, no moves. If hints/moves left after no mirrors left, use Distinguished strategy.

Master: Use the mirror trick first. When no mirrors left, look for an ABAB clue (each A is immediately to the left of a B). Use 3 hints then 3 extra moves to fill it. After exhausting these two types of clues, if hints/moves left use the Distinguished strategy.

GrandMaster: Pick a row/col with +s in it (somebody on the team has fruit there already). Use moves to fill it (we assume that the bot has solved a large portion of the board and will be able to find a row to fill without using more hints than he has available). Repeat until out of moves. Ignore hint limits.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 22, 2007 5:26:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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New version is now up on GameGardens. No bots yet, but the rest of the changes in the previous post are now live.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 22, 2007 10:00:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Playing solo, I get very aggravated at myself because I get caught up in solving the puzzle and then forget to place my carts (so I get a zero for a round, and drop down to an easier level). This seems to happen most often when I've just accomplished some major brain sweat too......

I don't like the idea of (human player) carts being auto-placed. A player should be allowed to say "no I don't want this fruit harvested, I want to save it so that the next board has a starting hint on it!", particularly if the team has the row or column that fruit is in already covered (so it would only add 1 point to the team score).

Should I add code to auto-place solo fills? Or is remembering to place the carts before locking a valid sign of an experienced player? Teams of course will be talking about how many carts the board has with green checks on them, to make sure all the carts are placed that need to be placed.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 24, 2007 8:34:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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How about just a message box that pops up when a row is filled (Do you wish to place a cart here? Yes / No) or would that make it cluttered?
The other possibility would be to have an option button to toggle "auto carting." Of course I don't forget the carts :D

I have a scoring question...
Each round is scored seperately and yet you can save moves / hints for the next round. It seems that you only have enough moves for a double fill every other round this way, so you could essentially be fluctuating from good to excellent every other round. Won't that really mess with the stats? Or does the overall scoring take into account the maximum moves you had available per round and rate you according to how efficiently they were used?

I know the idea is to encourage cooperative rather than solo play, but should the solo player be at an extreme scoring disadvantage? (Impossible to move past a certain rank as a solo player.) Would it be possible to arrange it such that a solo player could achieve the same result as a team, but it would take considerably more time and effort? So something that might take 10 minutes as a team could take 30 by themselves (much like floating a boat is fairly quick if several people are on board but solo floating is doable, just time consuming.) Maybe a solo player would have to play more rounds before getting a score, but it would be comparative to a group playing one round.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 24, 2007 9:09:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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The scoring system is pretty primitive at this point, but the difficulty level changes using these rules:
1. If you do not make a full row at all, you drop down one level. (so more hints, more moves)
2. If you score more than 40 points (playing solo, two full rows with no gem is 50 points) then you raise one level, where gems are more plentiful.

How to translate this into standings and a duty report.... I'm not sure. There is a lot of strategy involved in whether to use all your moves now, or save them for the next round, whether to save a hint or two, etc. Playing solo is different from playing with a team as well.

It's possible that later we will bundle sets of three rounds into "duty reports" or something. Right now, I'm just looking at the amount of time that is spent on one round, and saying there's no way we could make people do 6 rounds for a single labor hour - it takes too long. But then I don't have the patience to do the alchemistry puzzle either.

We can certainly tweak the number of moves and hints for each difficulty level. Please remember that at this stage Nibbler is a *prototype*. Cooperative puzzles are weird beasties, over and above all the polishing changes that are normal to developing a puzzle from a prototype into something that is awesome. What I have in mind at the moment is each team trying to fill several rows/columns each round, averaging about one per team member each round. Larger teams will have an easier time getting that average higher, and having *somebody* on the team generating gems for even higher points.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 24, 2007 10:09:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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In playing solo for extended times, I end up on level 5. It is **hard** to stay up on level 5, because you get no hint tokens and only 6 more moves each level. Ok, you get more gems, but the lack of hint tokens means that eventually you are forced to guess (and half the time you booch, losing the 3 gems or whatever that is sitting on your board).

I think that I need to add something to the scoring for the number of successive rounds that a player makes a solo full cart. It would have to be small, but then those who are going for ult would not be doing just one board at a time anyway - you have to do several boards in a row to get gems to get the really high scores.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 25, 2007 12:36:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I haven't added anything for "consecutive full carts" on level 5 or any other level. However, my desktop version now has a more complicated scoring system, so that higher levels earn more points for each full cart. The automatic difficulty adjustment has been tweaked too. In each case, if you get a full cart (no team divvy points, no gems) you stay on the same level, if you get a double you rise one level, if you do not get a full cart (no team divvy points, no gems) you drop a level. Working with a team will make it easier to rise to the next level, but the points the team earns from each full cart will be based on the average difficulty level (which will discourage people from teaming with a lot of Ables whether they are alts or not).

I've also fixed it so that if you booch it zeros your hints and moves on that board, so that when the next board is generated you don't have the leftovers to play with.

I'm going to wait to upload this version. Working on the bot team members next.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 27, 2007 6:23:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Version 3.0 (with bot team members) is now online.

I'm still fighting bugs in the part that is supposed to replace a human player who leaves with a bot, but hope to have that working this weekend.

The bots are pretty stupid. They work ok on levels where they always get at least two additional hints each round, but they are not supposed to be good simulations of human team members.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 27, 2007 1:39:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I'm still fighting bugs in the part that is supposed to replace a human player who leaves with a bot, but hope to have that working this weekend.


The only *known* bug with human players leaving and being replaced by a bot, is that the game says that the new bot "is eliminated!" in the chat window. The new bot gets to play in the next round, but doesn't make any moves on the board that was abandoned.

From my limited testing, most of the time an excellent player will make a few more points per round on average playing with the bots than playing solo. I'm going to assume that a team of experienced humans will make very high scores. We may have to make the maximum number of players 4 instead of 6.

Feedback and bug reports would be appreciated, if you happen to have any.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 27, 2007 6:59:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I just got to play the multi-player version. I like it alot. There seems to be a nice balance between team and individual scores. I do see this as being more like Spades than brawls in that people are likely to be quite selective in their teammates (if for no other reason than to find people that play at about the same pace.)

I still would like to see the number of moves available at the beginning of the round. There have been a few times that I actually needed a hint before making any moves, and knowing how many are available is a factor when deciding where to put it. (Do I take a hint in this spot that will help a lot but isn't part of the row / columns I want to complete or take a hint for a spot that is in a better location but maybe not as helpful?)

A scoring question (I probably could figure this out by playing and looking at the scoring more.) Is there a set score that each teammate gets for filling a cart, or is is it a set amount that is divided depending on how many people had fruit in the row? Do two people get more points than three (or vice versa?) In other words if two people were able to complete a row together, will they be upset if a third person puts a fruit in there just to get the team points, because it takes points away from them?

I know right now you are working on mechanics not visibility, but just something to think about: I am finding the board is getting very cluttered and busy, and it is actually making it harder to play, have you thought about simply changing the tile background color instead of using the checks and plusses?
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 28, 2007 4:02:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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The current scoring formulas are something like this:

Points for solo full cart: 8 + 4 * (difficulty level for player).
Solo double is twice that, plus a 5 point bonus.

The team points are then calculated based on the average difficulty level for the team, so a team might think twice about letting a greenie on. There are strategies where having one team member playing at level 2 or lower is an asset however, to balance the rest of the team being on level 5 and having no hints at all and only 6 moves.

Points are divvied based on the number of fruits each player contributed to the team fills. A team fill with an extra fruit gets an extra point for the team, so a player that just adds one extra fruit to a row somebody else completed does "steal" a few points but it is a very very few. A team where two players each complete the same row or column is going to make quite a few less points for those two players than if they had discussed things and chosen different rows/columns.

I'll see what I can come up with as a trigger for displaying the number of hints etc. We aren't clicking the parrot yet.... (My original idea was to have the parrot swooping around, but since I still don't have an artist, the parrot is an opaque image and so swooping it looks horrid)

About changing the background on the tiles: Give me an artist! If the images are transparent, then I can change the background easily.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 28, 2007 4:56:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Clicking the parrot now displays the current number of hints, moves, boards, etc.

I'm testing, and playing with 3 respected bots. (We might have a minor bug; Master bots are supposed to be possible on level 3 but it took me quite a few tries to get even one Respected). The scoring is interesting. Me, three Respected bots, on level 3, so we each had just 2 hints to start. All three bots must have had mirror clues, because that's the only way a Respected bot could fill a full row or column with just 2 hints.
13	44	tcarr	Round score
12 44 Respected_2 Round score
11 50 Respected_1 Round score
10 44 Respected_0 Round score

All of us were on same level, each got one full cart, the team got a Bingo. "Respected_1" got more points because his full cart was a row, where the rest of us got columns. This gave him 3 extra divvy points from the crossing columns, where each of the rest got just one extra divvy point.

I note that if I had been playing solo, my score would have been 40.

Next round I was the only one who got a full cart, and my score was a bit lower than if I had been playing solo.
24	35	tcarr	Round score
23 3 Respected_2 Round score
22 5 Respected_1 Round score
21 0 Respected_0 Round score

Round 3 I was only one with a full cart, but I had 4 more moves, and could finish off a row and a column started by bots. This gave the team a triple. I was still on level 3, so that 55 compares to a 40 that I would have scored for my full cart if playing solo. This pushes me to level 4 where in the following round I can score more points for a full cart.
35	55	tcarr	Round score
34 19 Respected_2 Round score
33 3 Respected_1 Round score
32 16 Respected_0 Round score

On Level 4, I had to make a decision. I could go for a solo full cart, or I could have no solo full cart but help finish two team carts. I opted for the solo full cart.
46	33	tcarr	Round score
45 0 Respected_2 Round score
44 2 Respected_1 Round score
43 6 Respected_0 Round score

Next round, with me back on level 3 (where I had more moves - hooray!). I got a full cart, then helped finish two team carts.
59	47	tcarr	Round score
58 39 Respected_2 Round score
57 35 Respected_1 Round score
56 14 Respected_0 Round score
51 99 TEAM Vegas^2!

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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 28, 2007 5:59:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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About changing the background on the tiles: Give me an artist! If the images are transparent, then I can change the background easily.

Oh, sorry, all I know how to do is cut and paste so I probably am not much help. So I assume the graphic has the white background and is not just sitting on a white board (which it would do if it were transparent.) I wish I could help out there.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 28, 2007 7:22:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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If you wanted transparent tiles, then this is your result. It's a bit unsightly, however, on a darker background:


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What Pip tried to do was something totally unprecedent. He, in some strange way, used Midnight as a test server, without him even knowing. [Crap, it sucks I was not online when he did that :'(... pfft, anyways]


Like a bad penny.
[Jan 28, 2007 10:11:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com    Intermission #3 - click here! [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Thankee pip!

/e wishes she had posted the latest version of the tile set on the wiki now..... oh well, no more time to code this weekend anyway
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 28, 2007 10:39:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Piplicus_BNO

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I've had a go at improving the letter sets, so they're much more pronounced. If I get time another day, I may have a go at the fruit letters (but I'm failing miserably at it right now).


----------------------------------------
 
What Pip tried to do was something totally unprecedent. He, in some strange way, used Midnight as a test server, without him even knowing. [Crap, it sucks I was not online when he did that :'(... pfft, anyways]


Like a bad penny.
[Jan 28, 2007 10:58:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com    Intermission #3 - click here! [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Thankee Pip! If you are going to continue to work on my tilesets, then I would appreciate transparent versions of both of the following (links rather than images):

http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Image:GCPP-Nibbler-tiles-48.PNG
This version has the locks; you might need to refresh. Sorry, but I don't have the cart and locks on a white background for you (and I can cope without transparent on those). I don't need the wood color part; I'm using a different file for the background. I do need the transparent parrot to be facing right instead of left if I'm going to have him swooping around.

http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Image:GCPP-Nibbler-initials.PNG
if you want to do something other than just make this whole tileset transparent, let me know. I can give you the sizes for the various items. The initials don't have to be different colors, because the three fruits will always have different initials. I'd welcome something better than those black squiggles for indicating that there might be something between.

Does anybody have suggestions for what colors would be good for the background? I'm thinking white for the starting board, then perhaps some type of textured yellow or amber for the +, and a different textured pale green for the check. Those would be opaque images if we have textures. I can fake it with non-textured squares of color using Java commands, or whip something up quickly in MS Paint.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 28, 2007 1:09:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Oh, one more thing (drat the non-editing!). If you are going to be changing the A1, A2, etc anyway, please put them nearer the bottom of each tile, so that the initials don't obscure the tile locations. Thanks!
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 28, 2007 1:11:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I am playing around with a few graphics programs to see if I can learn about making images with transparent backgrounds (mainly because it is something I don't know how to do but I feel is worth learning.) I cannot guarantee that I will come up with anything useable, but it is a worthwhile endeavor.

Since I am experimenting anyway...
Are you open to any of the suggestions I made earlier (via the various pictures I put up) including:
    color combinations, (green and shades of orange / peach)
    removing the location labels from each square (A4, B5...) and simply having row / column headers (like Battleship)
    *fruit icons on the board (removing the letters)
    *the way the clues were depicted (using fruit with a box around adjacent pieces)
    *having different types of images (a single fruit to represent each and multiple fruit to represent both)
* changes some mechanics (but helps clean up the board) right click on the fruit in the square still cycles through the options, but left click selects it for that location (eliminating the need to click on the coordinating fruit box then click on the square)

Otherwise, I will just play around with the images you have already given but Pip will probably beat me to it anyway :D

What sizes are you needing?

I was also going to suggest changing the fruit bowl and mirror icons to something more relevant - maybe a monkey for the fruit bowl (it has come and jumbled the fruit up?) or a tree reflected in the water for the mirror - just possibilities.

Also an observation about the gems - currently the letters don't show up on tiles that have them, but I still tend to manually put the letters there because it is still helpful in solving the rest of the line.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 28, 2007 2:38:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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First, responding to Pleetoo:

I know how to make transparent images using one package, but my trial subscription expired and my daughter in grad school lost her part time job so I'm pinching all the pennies I can to help cover her expenses. (and I figure it's cheating to download another trial onto a different computer)

I'm going to have to think about having the different fruits instead of initials. I have concerns about color blind people and those with bifocals for one thing - some of those fruits look much too similar; the initials do have the advantage of being readily distinguished.

Please do keep in mind that when I came up with the images in the first place, I was mostly trying for something I could steal. I remember spending most of one Saturday making those images, back last May. I could have been pillaging, or writing code! (fiddling with MS Paint is not my idea of fun)

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Second: thoughts from two hours of driving down the interstate today.

If Nibbler were to be used as a foraging puzzle for YPP, I think this might work.
  • You have to puzzle to forage. Sorry, those who like alt armies. It would eliminate that 10 minute delay after whisking though.
  • Each round (board) costs one labor hour, whether you get anything or not.
  • Only solo puzzling will change your standing.
  • Team puzzling will only display the *team* "bingo" or whatever. No extra points for the solo full carts, but divvy as now. This will give more incentive to players who see they have 6 moves, and determine what to place in 4 widely different locations that would just happen to finish 3 different team row/columns (because otherwise they would use their 6 moves for their own solo full cart, and the team score would be lower).
  • Each player starts with the difficulty level that is appropriate for his own standing, and the team starts with the average of those levels (rounded). Levels change as they do now, depending on how well players do on each round; this means that if you have a lot of good players with poor stats it will take several rounds to get up to the level where you can get gems. It is the team's difficulty level that determines the probability of gems spawning, and any gems are then randomly handed out to the player boards with the players who made the most points in that round having a larger chance of getting a gem.
  • Each full row or column (team) forages one item for the team. Sometimes that will be more than the number of labor hours, sometimes less.
  • Using a gem in a full row or column gives a chance of foraging a gem. Using two or more gems gives a chance of foraging gold. (Ok, if OOO prefers, we could just use the exact same type of spawning as now instead, but I don't really like the idea of a bunch of level 0 players having a chance at getting gold.) I do like being able to avoid getting a gem (useless as far as I'm concerned); save the gems until you have two or more on the same row or column!
  • We may have to enforce limits on the number of players on a team. Six players could manage to fill 6 different rows, giving them all 6 columns as well for a total of 12 fruits foraged. That seems excessive. Four or fewer players?

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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 28, 2007 4:23:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I'm going to have to think about having the different fruits instead of initials. I have concerns about color blind people and those with bifocals for one thing - some of those fruits look much too similar; the initials do have the advantage of being readily distinguished.

My eyesight isn't the best - the letters make me squint terribly.

I originally took the game images of the fruit and separated out individual images, except for the rambutan and limes which turned out to be too small to clearly distinguish. Then I took the images and ran them through Vischeck which shows how they would appear to colorblind people.

Deuteranope (a form of red/green color deficit)
Protanope (another form of red/green color deficit)
Tritanope (a blue/yellow deficit- very rare)

Even though they are pretty small images, and yes, there are some similar ones, for the most part they seem distinguishable. This was with very little extra work, I am sure with some tweaking that things would be even more distinct. However, even if some were decided to be too similar, how different would it be to use fruit with distinct shapes as opposed to distinct initials? (Which is already in place.)
 
Please do keep in mind that when I came up with the images in the first place, I was mostly trying for something I could steal. I remember spending most of one Saturday making those images, back last May. I could have been pillaging, or writing code! (fiddling with MS Paint is not my idea of fun)

I am not criticizing your artwork, nor belittling the effort you put in, but I happen to really enjoy playing with Paint and other graphics programs so I don't mind taking the time to experiment. I am not sure what you mean by images you could steal.

I am neither a coder nor a graphic artist but I am very willing to help and I am told I have a good eye for visual appearances. I am willing to play around with colors and run images through Vischeck, I can even send them to my bifocal-wearing father for his opinion, but I would like to know before I start if there are things that you won't utilize, or if you would consider them if I can get them to work.

I especially would like to know if there are programming reasons why something wouldn't work, or even if it is simply your own preferences (I don't get easily offended - it is your design afterall.) I am not even looking for a long explanation from you, you could just take my list of suggestions and say yes/ no / undecided :D On the other hand if I am just being obnoxious (I'm told I can be quite stubborn at times) you can just tell me that you prefer not to do any of these suggestions and I will go focus my attention elsewhere :) I won't be offended in the least. I only want to help if I am truly helping and not hampering or annoying.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 28, 2007 7:25:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Another case for using fruit instead of letters:
The names of fruit sometimes start with different letters in other languages. For example:
    coconut = kokosnuß
    pineapple = ananas
    pomegranate = granatapfel
in German (at least I believe so.) So pictures are more universal :)

I know it isn't that important, and I know you mentioned earlier that you speak several languages, so I am sure this has already been taken into account, I just figured I would throw it out there, but I will hush now. :D
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 28, 2007 9:45:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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For anybody who wants to fiddle with images:

The tiles (A1, B3, etc) are 48x48 pixels.

The cracker is 32x32 and currently being drawn using Java paint commands rather than an image file. Twould be nice to have a proper cracker.

The initials are 16x16.

The mirror and bowl are 32x32.

The vertical and horizontal div markers (black squiggles) are odd shaped and I don't mind their size changing. The vertical width should remain 16, and the horizontal height should be 16, but making them narrow is good.

It would likely be best if everything is transparent, then a separate opaque file with the different backgrounds (white, a color for the +, and a color for the check).
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In playing Nibbler, I'm now convinced that the way to go is to have only solo play be ranked, and the only feedback in-game is for the team fills. In playing with bot team members, I've been passing up chances to get a team triple so that I could get my solo fill in. It will be a much better game if we just have the team fills and then divvy them. The server can then put in the chat window what the team foraged for that round (one item for each team fill).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Feb 1, 2007 5:40:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Piplicus_BNO

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Sorry about the delay, I've been really busy. Yey for a three-day weekend.



I am aware I need to do the other image, still. I'll see what I can do with my limited GIMP skills.
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What Pip tried to do was something totally unprecedent. He, in some strange way, used Midnight as a test server, without him even knowing. [Crap, it sucks I was not online when he did that :'(... pfft, anyways]


Like a bad penny.
[Feb 1, 2007 11:31:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com    Intermission #3 - click here! [Link]  Go to top 
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