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Patetch

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Re: Puzzle Codename: Nibbler Reply to this Post
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Okay last one, I wanted to see if I could make it less cluttered looking and get the clues back up by the board. I think it is quite doable. I didn't really leave room for a text box but that wouldn't take much, however, I think that with the pictures and some basic instructions it wouldn't be necessary. (Oh and things are just randomly placed, just for a visual aid.)



I am probably biased here, but this just seems like it would be more intuitive than using initials and imaginary divisions of the box. Having the picture disappear rather than adding the no sign makes it less cluttered as you work through the clues and makes results stand out better.

I again didn't add the column and row numbers, normally I would say they really are not needed, but if this does indeed become a cooperative play game then it would just to help communication.

Alright, I promise, no more pictures from me unless they are requested. It would be nice to know if any of my ideas were being considered (you have to admit the buried treasure one sounded interesting, right?) but since a board layout was not actually requested, I can understand if they aren't.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 13, 2007 2:11:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Perhaps this could be a party game? On GameGardens, that means that anybody can drop in, play for a while, then drop out again. You could be "paid" each time you get a new board. I could take off the limits for how long you could sit there and play. Players would be able to leave the puzzle after booching, and then return to get a better board (and get a booch if they leave without the board clearing, so that they don't board farm???).

For YPP, this would mean at each board clear, you are told what your board foraged.

It's easy for an expert playing carefully to get just about perfect scores on Level 1. If Nibbler were part of YPP, that would bump the person's standing so that the next time he or she played, it would be Level 2 (or even 3). Level 2 is a wee bit harder, but has gems sometimes that can double the points on a clear. Level 4 is very close to impossible to get a double fill at all, but the gems are supposed to come more frequently (my notes say check my code, because it doesn't look like they are coming more often than level 2 - I might have a < where I should have a > there).

My current concept is that cooperative puzzling should increase your score, with the exception of a player who chooses to give up a possible fill in order to gamble that he could make a different possible clear that he's not sure he will be able to make, but that another player says he can. That would still be each player's choice, and I can see tempers raised when somebody who says "Row B, Col 2 double", causing somebody else to switch from "for sure Column A", then the double player booches his board..... wooo the tempers!

I don't think that ult players will be able to get Incredibles without working with a team. A GrandMaster player could likely easily get an Incredible by starting a green alt, so that he is playing at Level 1 - but then that green alt would get bumped to level 2 quickly.

Now, those who are not familiar with logic puzzles.... my son likes playing Parfait, but plays on Learning or Easy and mostly ignores the clues, just treats it like Sudoku. Somebody like that could learn to score some points working as a team, because he could wait for another player to pick the row or column, then use up enough hints that he could match that same row/column (and the way my son plays, half the time booch it because he didn't have enough hints).

I have concerns that people would board farm, get team members (greenie alts?) to sacrifice their own boards, or booch stats down to Able again, in order to get the really high scores on Level 1. We could set the scoring so that the higher levels score higher points for same things (over and above the gems), but then those who get to highest levels on an ocean in the first wave are locked in - it's easier for them to stay there than it would be to get there on a new alt.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 13, 2007 6:35:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I just checked the gem code, and it looks like Level 4 should get gems three times as often as Level 2 (but it's still less than 50% of the time). I could make the gem probability formula ramp faster, so that instead of 10%, 20%, 30% it goes 20%, 40%, 60%. We can play with that later. I don't want level 1 to get gems, because it's too easy to get great fills on that level.

Patetch, thanks for thinking about the layout. I will keep your suggestions in mind. Right now, I'm more concerned about getting the game mechanics working, and leaving room on the tiles for markers for the cooperative play.

Another idea that would *really* feel like cooperative working to fit the metaphor I posted, is to have an indicator on each tile when anybody has placed a fruit there at all (just one indicator per tile I think; even tally marks would get way too crowded and be too much trouble to code). I do *not* like the idea of the game automatically noticing that the team as a group as filled a row or column, but if one of the players notices and does some type of action, that could give the team as a whole points (but would have to clear the fruits involved). Perhaps clicking the parrot, then dropping him on the clue for the row or column? If an artist could supply a cart icon, that would be even better. This same action trigger could be used for partnership and teamwork bonuses; instead of the game automatically harvesting a filled row or column, the cart would need to be placed on the proper spot, then it would move across the row/col harvesting anything on anybody's board. Hmmm..... this would have to signal the end of a round though, and everybody's board would then reset.

****idea**** When each player is ready for his round to end, he places a cart at each row/col that he has filled (so players could fill two rows!) and then clicks a checkbox to vote for next round. When a majority* of the active players have voted, all the carts collect from all the boards, and all the boards reset. This matches the metaphor better too, but does mean some players will be bored waiting for teammates to be ready. It would make it easier to work as a Party style game on GameGardens, and in YPP would give foraging results at the end of each round.

*Majority: we don't want play to be stalled because some greenie doesn't know how to check the box. Good teamwork means communication - players should discuss whether to go to next round NOW or wait, before voting.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 13, 2007 7:25:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of having players put carts on top of clues to mark filled rows and columns, and then the player presses a button to harvest. I don't think we need the voting; *that* player's board would clear the harvested rows/columns on his own board, getting points from others - but the other players fruits would not clear yet. When a majority of the active players has pressed the "do it" button, then all the rest of the players' boards get triggered for using any carts, and *then* all the boards reset at the same time (even the ones that don't have any carts). Have the number of rounds as a lobby parameter, and forget counting booches. Party style means players can jump in during the game, and at the next board reset get their own board.

Players have to have at least one fruit in a row or column to put a cart there, but they get a cut of the points from that row or column if the team fills it, even if they only have one fruit in it.

This would really encourage large teams. Booching a board ends your turn, but if you have fruits on it the team can still get points. A good team (on YPP) would try to have a mixture of high level players (for the gems) and level one players (for lots of fruits on the board). How to simulate this on GameGardens.... .hmmmm..... instead of setting the table to a difficulty level, I can have the server check the top scores lists. If anybody has already made at least 100 points on level 1 before, then he gets level 2, unless he has already made at least 100 points on level 2 before, etc. It will be a bit more work, and after we get lots of people playing, harder for new ones to make it past level 1, but it should give us a decent scaling.

I'll see what I can do to get this working this weekend. I *think* I have an idea for how to deal with both the individual scoring and showing the detailed scores.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 13, 2007 8:35:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Apologies for the quadruple post. Dern this forum that won't let me edit my own posts! Still tweaking the cooperative play rules.

Party style game. Lobby sets the number of rounds, and whether players that enter late can join in, or are stuck with watching. Each player's first round is level 1. If he scores well, his next board is a level higher, if he booches, his next board a level lower.

On YPP, players who are Master+ could start with level 2, and Legendary+ with level 3 (or something like that). level 4 is just too hard to score big points IMO; when I play I end up booching at least one of the boards of a set of 4, but yes it does spawn nice gems. We may end up changing level 4 so that it has an even higher spawn rate on the gems or something.

I'm working on changing the game mechanics to use the carts (with a lovely programmer art cart I cobbled together in MS Paint). I'll upload the one player version with carts later today I suspect, so we can test for bugs before moving to the Party style (which will take several hours of coding).


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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 13, 2007 9:22:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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This sounds interesting. So could you play as many carts as you want or is there a set number? Does placing carts end your round of play, or only on those rows / columns? Would the players who hadn't placed carts yet get some sort of warning message? (Carts have been played, you have x moves left until harvesting.) Once a player has placed their carts, do they wait for the next round or do they get a new board?

Here's a thought, have four carts (2 double fills possible, maybe a bonus for getting the outside square?) A player can play until they have placed all four or end of round requirements have been met. Once a cart is placed, that row cannot be added to, but a random bonus / wildcard will appear elsewhere on the board (so if a player is stuck they might place a cart on an unfinished row to see if it helps elsewhere.) Ok, maybe four carts is too many, but this sounds like fun.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 13, 2007 9:24:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I was thinking unlimited number of carts, but you have to have at least one fruit in the row or column yourself to place a cart on that row or column. Once you hit the "harvest" button, your board is locked. All the boards reset at the same time, when a majority of active players has each clicked harvest.

Throw out the single placement bingo, vegas, etc. points (but keep some kind of small animation for encouragement for a valid placement. Hmm... gleam the spot???). All that counts is filled rows/columns. If your board has no filled row/column for that round, as long as you have at least one fruit placed in a row or column that the team as a whole can cover, you can place a cart. ***Real*** incentive to doing this as a team. The individual scores nice points for each of his own completely filled rows/columns. The team gets double, triple, bingo, donkey, vegas, etc. for the team's multiple rows/columns. So the max would be 6 rows, 6 columns, for Vegas^7 (if I counted right), if the team as a whole manages to fill the board. Each member of the team would get a share of the team's points for the Bingo or whatever, over and above his own row/column points, scaled to the number of fruits harvested from *his* board.

It is in the best interest of everybody on the team, personally, to wait until everybody is done placing fruits, because they will each personally get more points that way.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 13, 2007 9:51:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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dern that edit button!

If it isn't already clear.... carts will NOT stay if the row or column isn't filled. You can't send a cart down a row or column unless all 6 fruits are there (by the team) and at least one of the fruits is on your board. If the team fills a row/column and you have a fruit in that row/col but do NOT put a cart on, then your fruit is not harvested (which will let some players save a few fruits for another round, if they know that another player is covering that location anyway).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 13, 2007 9:54:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I had an idea... ( I know, I have LOTS of them) and I know I promised no more graphics, but I am a visual person. :D
Anyway... how about:

The board is divided into quadrants.
4 players, each getting a 3 x 3 quadrant.
Each player can only place items in their own quadrant.
The clues would be the same as if they had all 6 squares (so having a clue showing two limes together doesn't mean that they are in the same quadrant, just that they would be together in the big picture.)
Players must work together to complete the rows / columns.
For example:
This player may look at the clue for row E and realize that there cannot be a coconut in E1. They could announce, "I have at least 1 one of the bananas and no more than one coconut in row E."

Player 2 might announce that they know they have a banana at B5. That doesn't really affect this player but good to know, so they click on the square in the minimap until it shows bananas (clicking on this doesn't affect anything, just there for reference sake.)

Then this player would realize that if there were no coconuts in E1 then there wouldn't be one in F1 either( column one clue) and if the pineapples come before the bananas (row F clue) then that square must be a pineapple and announces that to the others. Also announcing that the only place they have for a coconut in that column is D1.

and so forth...

If someone booches, put a hole in that spot but not reset the board, and they personally get penalized but not the group (to prevent someone from booching on purpose) but how to handle if someone makes a guess based on faulty info from someone else? (intentional or not.)

Other thoughts:
Maybe have a shared pile of crackers? Still having the board reset after 10 placements would probably need some sort of voting system here. Unless... maybe each player can make three placements in their quadrant, booch holes count as one placement.

Scoring? Not a clue.

I would recommend that each person could get their own score and have the teamwork added on as a bonus, so it would still be possible for someone to get excellent while someone else gets a good.

A player could still opt to play solo much like it is set up now (6 x 6 grid.)

I thought about adding a commodity and making it an 8 x 8 board (so 4 x 4 each) because I thought a 3 x 3 might be too easy but it changes a lot of the dynamics of the clues. Still this could be an option for higher levels.

This would take a lot less time to play and wouldn't be overwhelming for beginners. It would have alot more active involvement rather than everyone doing their own thing at their own pace and waiting for the big finish. Some might have difficulty with the "big picture" but isn't that what teamwork is all about?

To limit multi-clienting, have a placement timer (used only at the end of the round.) No fruit can be placed before everyone clicks the checkbox, then give a limited time to place, any pieces not placed don't count. That might make it more difficult to switch clients and get them all placed in time. On the other hand that kind of messes up otheer things.... hmmmm
 
Patetch, thanks for thinking about the layout. I will keep your suggestions in mind. Right now, I'm more concerned about getting the game mechanics working, and leaving room on the tiles for markers for the cooperative play.
You're welcome. I know that the layout comes later but some of my ideas affected the mechanics some so I figured I would toss them out now at this stage rather than later. I am not so sure you need the squares actually labelled B2, F5 and so forth, having column and row headers should be sufficient (they don't label each square in Battleship, yet kids can play the game pretty easily.)
And you can call me Pletoo :)
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 13, 2007 2:28:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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The new version of Nibbler might not be ready until some time next weekend. I've decided that being able to watch people play is more important than making it a party style game, so it will be a normal "set the number of players" game. I'm doing the multi-player rewrite at the same time as the rest of the changes (some of the multi-player stuff was coded from the start).

I'm still thinking about the scoring, but right now my plan is that points are only awarded at the end of each round, and it is the round score that goes into the top scores list, not the score for the full game (so that those playing for 6 rounds don't have an edge over those just playing one round). Individuals will get "full cart!" or "double!" or possibly even "triple" but I really doubt that will happen, for filling complete rows and columns on their own board. Then the *team* will look at all the player's boards (where the carts are marked) and count the number of completed rows/columns - including those that are marked with carts but where it takes more than one player's boards to complete the row or column. For the team score, if two players both get Row A, it only counts as one row (so players might decide to choose different rows).

"Piggyback" points for extra fruit placed in a row or column that somebody else fills, or that the team fills. Just one point each, and it counts as a team point.

The team points are divvied in proportion to the fruits/gems on each board that were cleared. If Player A has a local row, plus one other fruit on a team column that is not in his local row; Player B has 3 fruits on the team column and two on Player A's row, and player C has the remaining two fruits on the team column plus one on the team row in the same spot as one of player B's, then the total fruits is 15, and the team points (Double plus 3 piggyback) would be divvied this way:
Player A: 7/15
Player B: 5/15
Player C: 3/15

This means that players who are very good have an incentive to work with a team (and even include a greenie on the team!), and players who are completely clueless can still get some points if they play with a team (by just waiting until the other players decide which row/column to fill as a team, and then using Hint tokens in the spots that the team needs).

We would have to worry about alt armies I suppose, and having one person who can get Incredibles using alts just for the hint tokens to boost his score. However, I would think that having two or three Inc level players on the same team would boost scores even higher, and having one person actually play the game intelligently in multiple clients - that's going to be a PAIN and take a long time. We can worry about alt armies later; it's not like they are something we don't already have, anyway.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 14, 2007 8:05:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CraftingProj

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Although I like the idea of the difficulty level changing for the next round, based on individual scores, we might be able to solve the alt-army problem this way:

Have the difficulty level set the way brigand spawning is now, i.e. take the average of all the players on the team. Somebody who is Ult level but using 5 Able alts would then be down to Level 1, with no gems possible. A team with two Ults in it would probably prefer to have one Able, to get down to level 2 or 3 (because level 4 is *really* hard to score points on).

And IMO anybody who multiple clients and actually strives to do the puzzle well in more than one window is going to validly earn anything foraged.....
[Jan 14, 2007 8:42:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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That sounds like it would work.

It likely won't make it into the next version uploaded, but I'm planning to have some timers, so that a team member going afk doesn't drive everybody else nuts, and a team member who needs just a bit more time has a warning.
1. When one player locks his own board (if no other boards are locked yet), a message is passed to all clients, and a timer set for 60 seconds.
2. When 51% or more of the players have locked their boards, another message is passed to clients, and the timer is set to the *minimum* of what it is now and 15 seconds.
3. When all boards are locked, the timer is set to zero.

When the timer reaches zero, any unlocked boards get locked. All the boards are processed for points, points are announced, boards are cleared, new boards are generated for the next round if there is a round left.

When a player booches, his board will lock immediately, and whatever clearing is supposed to be done on his board will happen. He won't be able to earn any solo full carts or team points, but the team can earn points by any fruits he has left on his board that are in rows or columns that already have a cart marking them.

When the next round starts, the new boards are unlocked.

For now, I'm going to just have the "timer is zero!" method triggered when 51% of the players have locked their boards.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 14, 2007 11:24:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I hope that the solo version will still be available? The timer is a neccessity with multiple players (for reasons that I have even commented on.) But I know myself well enough to know that as much as I really like this game I wouldn't play it if we only have one minute to finish from the time the first impatient person decides they don't want to play anymore.
I have never seen the games that require multiplayers be played on Gamegardens without being planned ahead of time, so it might be hard to get enough on to test the multiplayer version.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 14, 2007 12:48:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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You will be able to set the table in the lobby for a given number of players - including solo.

Eventually I might add bot opponents, who make a few greenie type placements using their hint tokens, and every once in a while will get a mirror clue and still have two hint tokens left (meaning they can fill the mirror's row/column with just 2 hint tokens used).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 14, 2007 2:22:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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about the timers.... I was trying to make sure tables didn't get "stuck" when somebody goes afk. *good* teams will make sure that everybody is ready before anybody locks a board at all. However... how about if it takes two locked boards to start the one minute countdown? We could run into trouble with tables where everybody but one player disappears (afk, d/c, etc), but that will be rare.

eh, for *now* i'll just leave the timers out completely. When somebody locks a board, the other players will get a "hurry" message, then when 51% have locked, all will be locked immediately (no 15 second warning).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 14, 2007 3:13:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Hmmm... I think I must be misunderstanding something. If the boards automatically lock after 51% have entered does that mean that the other 49% don't count? Or does it automatically place carts? So if you have 5 players, 2 lock their boards and the countdown begins, third person locks theirs, so what happens with the other two? (Even if they all agreed they were ready, one of the three would get their board locked first.)

Personally, if there is going to be a time factor then I think an indicator is a good idea as well.

I am looking forward to seeing how the carts and multi-player options work. If the carts don't achieve the cooperation goal you were initially striving for, would my idea of breaking the board into quadrants be at all usable? I was wondering about the factors like server usage and multi-clienting (and other ways of beating the system.)

I am not trying to get my own way or meaning to be a pest, I really am just trying to learn some more about what is possible and what isn't. If there is a better place for me to post these sorts of questions, or somewhere to look up the info myself, please point me in the right direction. :)
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 15, 2007 11:36:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I'm being lazy and not posting pictures, so what is very obvious in MY mind is hazy in everybody else's.

Players will click a cart icon, then click the clue area for a row or column. If there is at least one fruit placed on their own board on that row/col, and the team as a whole has that full row/col covered, then the cart will "stick" otherwise it disappears.

Locations that have a team fruit placed will have a + sign on them. If a player has a solo row/col, and places a cart, then that each position in that row/col on all the boards will be marked with a green checkmark. If it's a team row/col (no one player has all six fruits in it) then it gets the green checkmark only after enough teammembers place carts on it so that all 6 locations are covered.

If you have a fruit in a green checkmark row/col, you can decide whether to place a cart too (to get a piggyback point) or not (to save the fruit for the next round).

When you have placed all the fruits you are going to place, and put all the carts in place that you are going to, then you click the Lock icon, and it changes from unlocked to locked.

Once you put a cart on a row/col, you can't remove it. Once you lock a board, you can't unlock it. If you put a cart on a row/col that you want to team fill, and the only team member with one of the spots decides NOT to place a cart.... then the team doesn't get that row/col (but no penalty).

I'm really hoping to get this up on GG this coming weekend, and revise the wiki with a storyboard with real screenies (and a new quickstart pic). First day of the semester is tomorrow, so I'm back at the office already - won't have as much time for programming (and the code freeze will be lifted soon, so I can make tweaks on Pickerel and Manta).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 15, 2007 11:48:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TheCosmicChz

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Ran into a small scoring issue on the solo game.

I had a double-fill (fourth column, last row), last piece was placed at the bottom of the column. There was a gem in the first slot of the column. It only shows me geting 30 points for the clear.

How would gem scoring work in this case? I was honestly expecting more with the gem there. =(


Off-topic from issue:
I was so obsessed with double-filling the gem row I hinted my way to solving the entire board, except for a 2x2 square in the bottom left corner, that had two distinct solutions =( I nearly cried after all that work until I realized I had a hint cookie so I could indeed solve the puzzle =P

Also Off-topic:
Woot, that game scored me 170 and put me on top of lvl4 High Scores. Wootage.
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--Dcurd :
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[Jan 15, 2007 12:27:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    NotSoDreadDcurd [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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aye, that's a bug all right. Version 2's scoring system will be different, but I'll make sure that the gems will get covered correctly in that version.

There will be times in version 2 when you can solve the full board, but you won't be allowed to place more than a certain number of fruits (which means playing solo you either take a single row/col, or require fruits/gems leftover from the previous round, in order to have enough to finish two).

Thanks for testing Nibbler!
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 15, 2007 12:33:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I spend the first part of each game clicking all the letters on so I don't have to keep remembering what fruit goes in each third of the box.

Any chance of getting "letters shown" as a lobby parameter?
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 17, 2007 8:50:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I spend the first part of each game clicking all the letters on so I don't have to keep remembering what fruit goes in each third of the box.

Any chance of getting "letters shown" as a lobby parameter?


Aye, that's easy enough to do. A bit more trouble is adding buttons to turn on all initials, or clear all initials, but it's still pretty simple. Which would be more useful to you think?
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 17, 2007 9:58:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I just played a game where the last piece I played for the first clear was limes in the top right corner. I noticed that the scoreboard said 'board reset' followed by 'good' before I even started on the second board. Then I noticed that there were limes in the top right corner. Is it possible that it registered twice, and that I was just lucky that it happened to be right? (I don't believe I double-clicked, but I may have some how.)

A question on the carts:
Does placing them count as "locking the board?" Or are they two separate things? I often find myself playing a round a lot longer than necessary because I try to go for the whole board instead of stopping when I have enough for a double fill (or single fill first round.) Some sort of indicator that I could set to remind myself would be useful (but not necessary - thinking is good to do) however, the carts might already fill that function.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 17, 2007 10:00:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I just played a game where the last piece I played for the first clear was limes in the top right corner. I noticed that the scoreboard said 'board reset' followed by 'good' before I even started on the second board. Then I noticed that there were limes in the top right corner. Is it possible that it registered twice, and that I was just lucky that it happened to be right? (I don't believe I double-clicked, but I may have some how.)

A question on the carts:
Does placing them count as "locking the board?" Or are they two separate things? I often find myself playing a round a lot longer than necessary because I try to go for the whole board instead of stopping when I have enough for a double fill (or single fill first round.) Some sort of indicator that I could set to remind myself would be useful (but not necessary - thinking is good to do) however, the carts might already fill that function.


MDB swears that the different messages to the server get processed in the order the clients send them, but he didn't say that the reverse it true. I noticed in testing that it looked like tiles were getting flipped sometimes on the second board, from fruits placed on the first board. For the new version, we will *not* have that problem. (at least we shouldn't - there shouldn't be any players placing fruits at the very last second)

Placing carts and locking the board will be separate actions. Place your carts first. When you are finished placing carts and fruits, and your team mates are finished, then you lock your board to signal that you are finished.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 17, 2007 10:47:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I spend the first part of each game clicking all the letters on so I don't have to keep remembering what fruit goes in each third of the box.

Any chance of getting "letters shown" as a lobby parameter?


Aye, that's easy enough to do. A bit more trouble is adding buttons to turn on all initials, or clear all initials, but it's still pretty simple. Which would be more useful to you think?

Actually the buttons would probably be more useful. There has been the occassional time that I have realized I made a mistake somewhere when I get to an impossible situation and have to start over (only happend twice so far, both times turned out to be from clicking the wrong spot - eliminating the limes instead of the bananas for example, that's why I like to have them on.)
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 17, 2007 11:06:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I think I would like to know how many moves I have when the board starts, or how many max fruit can be placed, including those already preset, because that effects the strategy.
Level one is 10; Level two is 9 (I think); but I don't know on three, it seems largely dependant on the number of preplaced fruit (but I could be wrong.) I just played level three and on one board, the first fruit I placed said 3 moves left. If I had known I was only getting 4 moves I would have simply finished the row that I already had two in, instead of trying for the double fill, as it was I didn't even get a single fill.

That brings up another question (probably already answered) Are the boards still automatically reseting after X moves in the multi-player version? Or is that what locking the board is about? Does placing carts break the fruit chain? (So you would want to solve as much as possible, place all carts, place fruit, lock the board?)

Also, am I right in thinking that the number and type of fruit already placed on a new board (round 2,3,4) is a percentage of how many were placed on a previous board? So, if instead of going for the fills, you tried to place as many of one type of fruit as possible, you would end up with more placed pieces the next round? That would certainly make for a different strategy (to decide whether to go for the single fill in round one, or try to get as many limes as possible to make round two easier.)

I will go back and reread all your posts to see if I understand better.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 17, 2007 12:31:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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For version two, there will be no consecutive placement bonus. I'll add a message after each placement giving number of hints left for the round and for rest of game, and number of moves left for the round.

There will be a max number of hints for the game total per player, and a smaller max number of hints per round per player. The max number of moves is determined based on the difficulty level and also the number of fruits already on the board (so that players don't save up LOTS of fruits until the last round, to get a solo Vegas - if there are lots of fruits on the board, then the puzzle is too easily solved exactly). Leaving extra fruits on the board for the next round is a great strategy, I just don't want players to overdo it.

I don't think I'll have the game lock the boards after using your max number of placements for a round. You will still be able to place carts, just not fruits.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 17, 2007 1:29:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Instead of a message that pops up after each placement, would having a counter be easier?

Hints left 3 / 5
Moves used 1 / 7

I'm not sure how well that would work, but basically I want to know how many moves I have for a given board before I place any fruit or use any hints, since that affects some of the current strategy. Of course if that won't come into play in the next version, then it isn't that important.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 17, 2007 1:59:18 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Part of my reason for saying a message (not a floating one, just changing the text on a label) is that we already have a place for a label, the one for the text translation of a clue. Changing the text on that label is easy to do. I'm not sure where else I could shoe-horn in hint counters and move counters.

I would think that listing hints left (this round), hints left (total), and moves left (for this round but we don't need to specify) would be needed. The way I'm writing version 2, there will be a certain total number of hints for all the rounds, and a maximum of those that can be used in any given round. So if the max for the game is 6, and max for round is 4, it's important for the player to know that although he still has 2 hints left for this round, since it's round 1 now he might want to save those 2 hints for later.

When I was testing the game myself, I knew that the number of moves was limited, but didn't bother to try to remember how many. I just knew that it would start warning me with I had 3 moves left, so I filled in most of a row or column first, then started filling in most of another (or whatever odd fruits that I could determine). For version 2, completing a row or column will not lock your board, so if you know you want to complete it, I would suggest completing it first. But adding the counter is a good idea (to the label).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 17, 2007 3:49:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I just noticed that the clue translation doesn't revert back to the original (find two of each fruit...) message even when the board resets. Just a minor thing since I don't use the translations anyway.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 19, 2007 4:23:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Nibbler version 2 (cooperative!) is now available on GameGardens.

I'm going to assume that we will find a few bugs, particularly when players leave in the midst of a game, or when somebody booches.

We need to discuss:
1. Is level 1 too easy? too hard?
2. Do we need even harder levels? Possibly just fewer hints, but same number of moves instead of cutting down on moves too?
3. What kind of tweaks should be done to the scoring? Scoring is *very* ad hoc right now.

Ideas for version 3 (not sure how hard to implement):
1. Party style game (so more players can join). Problem with this idea is that we lose the ability to watch games. There would be a toggle in the lobby for "private game" if you do not want strangers wandering in.

2. Automatic difficulty adjustments. Each player starts with the difficulty set in the lobby, but if you finish a round scoring over XXX, then your difficulty increases by one level. If you finish scoring less than YYY, then your difficulty decreases one level.

3. Continuous play. The game never ends as long as at least one player is still playing. (as in, new rounds)
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 20, 2007 12:33:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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