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tcarr

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Thanks for the feedback! I'll have to think about your suggestions. The next version of Nibbler likely won't happen for several weeks as I have other projects that I'm working on right now.

When playing with a team, each player has a different board. You might not even be using the same set of three fruits. Knowing where the gems are by your team members telling you is not cheating - that's teamwork.

The GameGardens version of Nibbler has gold happening far too often.... but it is so much more fun than just fruits! If implemented on YPP, the changing levels would happen much more slowly (when your "star" level changed). I could certainly make it more difficult to level up.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[May 11, 2007 3:16:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Stefania_33

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No, no, I wasnt asking if they tell you were the gems are. My question was related to fruits. As in if they had the same fruits arrangement they could have easily tell you what are the fruits they discovered and where.

But seeing as they have different tables different fruits, thats out of the question. So it's solved.
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Shooshy
(Sage) Emerald Ocean

"Cei ce stapanesc pe altii sunt puternici. Cei ce se stapanesc pe ei insisi au adevarata putere" Lao Tzu
[May 11, 2007 6:10:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marie61

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my difficulty with this puzzle is the initial assumption that foraging is similar to crafting. while both use the labor badges on doubloon oceans & draw from the same quota of labor hours, there are more differences. it is not at all clear to me how the current foraging rules will be adapted.

1 no "free" foraging day for non-badgeholders/subscribers.
2 you can't take a job as a forager
3 there is a 10 minute wait to forage

will it become a parlor game for badge/free day purposes and not use labor hours?

4 you get paid for doing the crafting puzzle (assuming there are orders, etc) but the fruit is in the hold of a ship and has to be transported and sold.
5 the fruit can only be sold by the ship owner or FO/SO/Capt of their crew.

will fruit & gems be sold automatically and each player get paid when leaving the game?
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Armillaria on all oceans
SO Moose of Doom, Cerulean


Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.
[May 24, 2007 1:29:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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The Nibbler thread is for discussion of Nibbler as a puzzle.

For discussion of whether to make foraging a puzzle at all, please see the Cooperative Puzzle Design Discussion thread.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[May 24, 2007 3:18:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
henryavory



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the game you posted was great i really enjoyed it
[May 25, 2007 1:28:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Thankee!
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[May 25, 2007 4:52:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CraftingProj

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I'm attempting to update the status board. Are you planning any further polishing of Nibbler, or is the current version the final one?
[Jun 18, 2007 10:54:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I have several changes I want to make on Nibbler, so please keep it as Phase 5 for now. Thanks!
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jun 18, 2007 12:09:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jes_Roo

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LK, I freakin' LOVE this game! I played your GG Parfait just on my desktop for a long time, and just realized that you had developed it into Nibbler (yeah, I'm like 7 months behind).

I really like the pictorial clues that you've made for the columns and rows. They're actually exactly like the ones I would make for myself when playing Parfait, except I used * instead of a squiggle. :)

I would like to help by giving constructive feedback, but since I'm coming in late, I don't know where you are. Can you do a quick summary of

1. Things you are working on, and
2. Things that you'd like investigated/tried out?
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JesRoo
First Mate of Eloquent & Princess of Cold Steel on Midnight
Owner of Jesroo's Ironworking and Apothecary Stalls on Gaea
 
You're in the pay of the Weaving Syndicate, you are! Hempmonger! - The Dread Pirate Chris

[Jun 21, 2007 6:14:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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since foraging puzzle is much lower priority than weaving, tailoring, and furnishing, Nibbler fell to the bottom of my priority list when round 2 started up.

I plan to make it a party style game, so that it is easier for one person to start it up, and then others drop in (with variable seating). I also plan to redo the graphics eventually. Mackerel is my current coding project, then I'll decide whether to tackle Nibbler again, or do Guppy for Game Gardens, or perhaps try to code a nicer version of Flounder than the awkward one it has now.

(and in the meantime, I'm juggling RL stuff, fighting flotillas, making logic puzzles fer the Logical Crafting event, trying to think of a LOLCode entry, and picking up my son tomorrow for a long weekend)

oh.... on the extremely long range..... eventually I want to do a non-YPP version of Nibbler, probably called something like Knickknacks or Curios, where there are three different colors of three different types of items on each shelf (and still 2 of each on each row, each column). I've barely started thinking about how to handle the clues for it; will likely have to be text clues for the first version.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jun 21, 2007 6:51:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jes_Roo

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OK, for now I'll just continue to play it. If I come up with any ideas, I'll post them.


Are you a little overbooked, LK? ;)
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JesRoo
First Mate of Eloquent & Princess of Cold Steel on Midnight
Owner of Jesroo's Ironworking and Apothecary Stalls on Gaea
 
You're in the pay of the Weaving Syndicate, you are! Hempmonger! - The Dread Pirate Chris

[Jun 22, 2007 5:50:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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aye, but then I hate being bored ;-)
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jun 22, 2007 5:58:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Notes on other tweaks to Nibbler (besides making it party-style and trying to improve the graphics):

1. The current rate of getting Gold should produce Gems instead, with a much smaller chance of getting Gold instead of a Gem.

2. There should be an incentive to use a Gem that's on your board immediately instead of saving it. My thoughts a few months ago were to have Gems disappear if not used immediately, but now I'm thinking that they should disappear if no piece on your board is used to help fill a cart.

3. Need to add some kind of pause after making a booch. I was playing while half asleep last night, and managed to booch two different boards while thinking I was just making a single placement. This won't be a problem usually when playing with other humans, but playing alone or with just bots it can happen.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jun 28, 2007 3:48:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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2. There should be an incentive to use a Gem that's on your board immediately instead of saving it. My thoughts a few months ago were to have Gems disappear if not used immediately, but now I'm thinking that they should disappear if no piece on your board is used to help fill a cart.
I am not sure what you mean here - I am always able to help fill at least one cart - unless you mean a cart that was filled by everyone else already, and I didn't need to help?

I was thinking that maybe the gems would "decay" after a couple turns, becoming something you want to avoid instead, however I don't know how it would fit the analogy- fruit would rot but gems wouldn't - unless maybe leaving gems sitting around tends to attract unsavory characters?

I look forward to the graphic changes (whether you use mine or not) so that I can play more - currently I have to squint too much to be able to play long periods of time.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jun 28, 2007 4:12:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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On the higher levels, you get no hints. I have seen boards where I can't solve anything without a hint, and if I have no leftover fruit from the previous board I'm stuck (and sometimes even if I do have a couple of leftover fruit). If I guess and booch, then I lose all gems on my board, all fruits, plus get a nasty hole, drop a level, but possibly still be high enough that I don't have a hint. So I pass and hope for a better board. Passing drops me down a level, which might put me where I have a hint again, but definitely means I now have twice as many moves as I did before, and a new board which odds are I can solve most of even without the hint.

I've seen players who alternate turns on purpose, so that they can make very high scores on the turns that they do fill carts. If we make the gems disappear if you don't at least help fill a cart, it means that when you have a board that you are stuck on but do have a gem, you will want to talk to the other players. Get them to use your gem, or to fill a row/column that includes one of your fruits if you have any.

Anything that encourages actual teamwork is good IMO.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jun 28, 2007 6:03:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Serinno

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...........Nibbler Foraging........
I immediate like the thought of this being either single or teamwork. Only other teamwork we have is in spades or mass rumble/sf. Thought to be honest, i dont think foraging would be a great idea to add next, might be like TH, not influential to the whole game, just a nice lil add on. Seems similar to some mystery puzzles, though i easily booched everytime. Seemed pretty difficult and still didnt understand it, the clues didnt help much either. I liked the ideas but was too difficult on the easiest level.
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Laike
O of Sharper Wit
(Malachite Ocean)

Lucipher
SO of Odin's Demise
(Hunter Ocean)

"Killed on Turn, Buried on River." -Lucipher
[Jul 19, 2007 8:42:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    laikeship@yahoo.com [Link]  Go to top 
actreal

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My feedback as a tester:

This game has a very steep initial learning curve. The quickstart helps a little, but it is very busy with 7 different comments. At first, I didn't realise the mirror and the fruit bowl were also clues so I didn't click on them to see the translation for quite a while.

I still don't know what the parrot and envelope are supposed to do?

Also, I'm still not sure I understand the scoring, even after reading the wiki, forum and the in-game how to play. What are we aiming for? Is each board an hour of labour? What is a good score? How do I get gold?

My first game I booched all over the place, partly due to not knowing what I was doing and partly due to lag when selecting fruit to click. Once I adjusted by waiting 5 seconds for the green outline to appear, this was not so much of an issue, but it may be putting off other testers.

My first game was somewhat fun once I got the hang of it. It wasn't really addictive, I played for a while until I realised there was no end game.

My second session was much more fun and more addictive. The change was that another player logged on so that we were working out the game together. The chatting and discussing which rows and columns to complete, trading hints on how to interpret clues.

The cooperative aspect of this game is the best bit by far, and I would like to see it emphasised. There is currently no time limit, which is a good thing except that it means a player could multi-client 4 alts through the game and maximise his score without ever having to play with someone else. If this gets into YPP, I'd like to see some mechanism for encouraging players to play together, even to the point where a single player is not allowed to play by themselves.

I've only been playing on the lower levels to give myself the best chance of working out how scoring works, but a couple of boards into a session, I found that I run out of moves well before I run out of hints, which would indicate that I could move to higher levels. Having no crackers at all would make getting started very difficult, and possibly higher level players would be creating their own challenge by aiming for gold and rare fruit more often.

The analogy is quite good, less abstract than most of the crafting puzzle suggestions. It's certainly sufficiently good for players to understand that they're Foraging, not Bilging or playing Spades.

In its current form, I think Nibbler would intimidate a lot of players to start with. This isn't necessarily a problem, as many players found Blacksmithing hard to understand to start but they wanted a decent rating so they pushed themselves to learn the puzzle.

I would find the game more fun if I had more moves, enough moves to solve as many squares as I could, but this would probably make the scoring and awarding fruit more difficult to manage. I find it very frustrating when I know there's a Durian in B5 but I've run out of moves or it doesn't complete a row so I shouldn't waste a move to put a Durian in that box. The right-clicking notation helps to assuage the frustration though - several times I've marked up a whole board with the solution before locking it. :D

The current lack of end game is also unsatisfying for me. If each board is a labour hour, then more text explaining what happened to my labour hour would be good.
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Donall of Hunter

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by actreal at Jul 24, 2007 6:02:14 PM]
[Jul 24, 2007 6:01:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Each board is supposed to be a single labor hour. Aye, this game needs some love on the 'how to play' end, and one of these days I'll change it to a "party style" game to make it easier for people to start boards and have others join later.

Clicking the parrot will display the number of moves you have left, number of hints, and other info. The original idea was that when you placed a cracker (hint) on the board the parrot would swoop down, eat it, then the correct fruit would appear. That turned out to be more work than it was worth IMO.

"envelope"?? if you mean the cart in the bottom right, that's to collect the fruits. in the first version if you didn't place a cart on a filled row or column, those fruits didn't get picked up.

and at the higher levels, you get fewer hint crackers. about level 9 or so there are no hints at all.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by tcarr at Jul 24, 2007 6:40:20 PM]
[Jul 24, 2007 6:39:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
actreal

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A cart! It makes more sense now.

Thanks for your explanations.

I was aware that at higher levels you get fewer crackers. I'm not sure if that makes it hard enough for good players. I'll try it on level 9 and see how I go. At a guess, you might have to risk a booch on your first few moves until you get some fruit on the board to structure clues around.
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Donall of Hunter

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[Jul 24, 2007 7:50:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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At the higher levels, booching clears all the fruits and gems on your board, and leaves a hole that can only be healed by using a hint (which just heals the hole).

What I do is start on level 8, and place whatever fruits I can without trying to fill a row or column. This gives me zero carts for the board (usually) and drops me to level 7. When playing with bots, the second board can now let me fill multiple rows/columns, and I have a reserve of hints to be used when I get stuck. I try to have about three fruits *not* in completed rows/columns to act as extra clues for the next board.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jul 25, 2007 2:57:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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