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cowdarse



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Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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Can ye not do somethin' about the shops that default on the times they give fer completin' an article?
I ordered a sword ........wait time given, 22hours. Two WEEKS later it's ready!
I ordered some fine rum.............wait time 7hrs...........still waitin' after two days
Cannonballs .......wait time 49 hours........that was 3 days ago......still waitin'.
I can't afford to keep buyin via the hold. If ye're given a date, it should at least be close to when ye get yer, (already payed fer), goods.
As a contrast....ordered a sloop from Boatanical Gardens.....time given 69 hours. Sloop delivered on time!.......if they can do it why not the rest. If they don't, give us an option to cancel. Better still, put some stiff fines in place!
[Dec 23, 2003 3:21:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Squidbeard

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At the risk of repeating myself. . . Reply to this Post
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It's an estimate. They get more accurate all the time. You should try the Search function.
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Squid
High Priest, Cult of the Red Mantis
[Dec 23, 2003 3:27:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://looterati.goldfish.org [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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Better still, start fining players for not understanding the system.
[Dec 23, 2003 3:27:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
cowdarse



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Shops.....estimates. Reply to this Post
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I know that the given times are estimates!...........Given time 22 hours......delivery time 2weeks.........hope yer roof never leaks!
[Dec 23, 2003 3:35:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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As a contrast....ordered a sloop from Boatanical Gardens.....time given 69 hours. Sloop delivered on time!.......if they can do it why not the rest. If they don't, give us an option to cancel. Better still, put some stiff fines in place!

The part that annoys me is where you imply that it's the store's fault. In almost every case, it's not. And nobody deserves their money back.
[Dec 23, 2003 3:41:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Stinktoe



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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My parents are having an addition placed on their house.

Estimated completion date was in September.

It is still not done, probably won't be until Easter.

Yep. It sucks. You deal.

Although an option to cancel an order that's not yet finished is an interesting idea.
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Don Quevegas
Officer of the Yo-Ho Yo-Yos
Flag Looterati
[Dec 23, 2003 3:52:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Bistronaut



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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As seen on Zeldman.com a week or so ago:

President Reagan used to tell this joke:

A Soviet citizen stands in line for three days to requisition a car. On the fourth day he reaches the counter. At last he concludes his transaction.

?Congratulations, comrade!? says the Soviet official. ?Your automobile will be delivered to you on the fifth of March in the year 2005.?

?Morning or afternoon?? inquires the citizen.

The official is puzzled. ?Why do you ask??

The citizen explains: ?The plumber is coming in the morning.?
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Bredbeard - Sailmaster of Easily Distracted
Member of Silver Dawn
[Dec 23, 2003 4:04:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
JosephConrad



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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Having to wait will help young pirates shop around before purchasing.

Having the chance to cancel an order will make shop-owners a touch more responsive to us cash-cow pirates.

It will also help to self-regulate the Back-Log. If almost your entire back-log cancels itself, you're not really hurting as, you'll get the business back the next day, because, wait for it, wait..., you'll have a smaller backlog than anyone else, minus a few customers who still think yer backlogged.

Is one pirate perpetually buying clothes and swords and such? Mayhaps there are better questions to ask, but if not, then there's nothing to worry about.

Leggat.
[Dec 23, 2003 4:04:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Those are seperate links Reply to this Post
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JosephConrad wrote: 
It will also help to self-regulate the Back-Log. If almost your entire back-log cancels itself, you're not really hurting as, you'll get the business back the next day, because, wait for it, wait..., you'll have a smaller backlog than anyone else, minus a few customers who still think yer backlogged.


The problem, as always pointed out, is that it's open to lots of abuse, and requires the shopkeeps to have lots of cash on hand.

Edit: Oh, yeah! I declare this thread boocherated.

atteSmythe,
who hasn't been this linky in a while!
----------------------------------------
 
Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

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EmmEss



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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Actually the problem is this - When the Distillery puzzle came into play, all of the shops had to have a recipe re-write.


SO, if the shops were amply backlogged with EXPERT items, and have never had a clear backlog of expert items since. They'll have stacked on and on. Thus why shops from FIRST ROUND bids have difficulties with wrong estimated times, but the shops from Turtle/Guava are FAR more accurate in their delivery times.

I know this because my monger has been backlogged from old recipe swords, and have cleared those swords, but still have expert swords stacked up. Mongers now can only produce at max 3 to 4 expert hour swords.

I've raised prices to cut off buyers, instead of closing shop completely. But it might be best to just cut off expert hours til you're able to catch up.

The new weavery I've gotten since AFTER the labor switch, outputs pretty accurate times. And none of my expert stuff gets stuck in for days.
[Dec 23, 2003 5:09:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jothmar



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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With the new system for figureing estimates on completion times should fix this problem if it hasn't already. Any orders placed before or shortly after the fix would have been inacurate as more information on completion times for each shop becomes available for the program to look at the more accurate completion times will be.

I would also like to point out that it impossible for the shop owner to at all affect the time listed as the expected time for completion that is completely done behind the scenes by the program itself. It used to be inacurate because it didn't pay attention to what kind of labor was needed by the item being ordered. This as been fixed but how the program figures wait times is by looking at the past and figureing how long it'll take based upon how long it took in the past. This isn't exactly accurate since with the puzzleing when shops get labor is fairly random. Of course given large numbers of people playing that randomness goes down but still it can't be completely accurate.

Don't blaim the shop owners. There is only one thing that a shop owner can do to control wait times. Thats to fire nearly everyone working for them. Several distillery owners have done this and they can produce rum much faster. Get your work force down to 30 or so people and you can make sure you have the correct labor available when its needed. However, myself and other distillery owners have decided that we'd rather allow anyone to do the puzzle that wants to.

Long story short, if you don't want to have a wait time don't order anything and if you want exactly accurate estimates then . . . well tough, nothing can be done to do that.
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Kelyon Hawk of Fidelis Bellum
[Dec 23, 2003 5:15:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Torrid_Thorn



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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You know, its funny...people assume that being an owner/manager of a shop you control the actual work that goes on in the shop. This is a myth if you believe it. Let me hash out real quick what a shop owner can do...

1) Stock the store by either foraging,trading, purchasing required commodities
2) set pricing, maximum stock, min stock, cost, buy price for trading through the hold
3) set offered pay for labor
4) set charged labor for items being made
6) Hire managers, fire managers and staff
7) Deliver defaulted items left on the queue past 30 days.

Sorry folks, thats the extent of what an owner of a shop can do. Notice theres nothing in there that gives them power over the actual use of either a labor puzzle of the estimated labor hours. They can't move an order up the queue to be done faster, they can't sit down and actually make the product themselves. Most shops labor hours are estimated in percentages of basic/skilled/expert so, if you have a job in a shoppe, think about that next time your out foraging to bring in that extra poe for that one item you want. Each hour you use foraging the shop doesn't get to use. So...please stop blaming the shop owners.
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"Ah the sword.... can be your greatest friend, and your most dire enemy. Keep yours sharp and hope your foe neglects his."

"When the cut comes, steel yer arms and prepare for the bleed"
[Dec 23, 2003 7:16:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nicuss



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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Shop estimates are still booched. They were just fine when they were first revamped so they tracked actual labor produced, took about two days to settle after reboots but they were accurate after that. Ever since you released the Dec 16 update and started saving labor data across reboots, the estimates are about a third of actual time in our shops, give or take.
[Dec 23, 2003 12:02:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Matthias

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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cowdarse wrote: 

As a contrast....ordered a sloop from Boatanical Gardens.....time given 69 hours. Sloop delivered on time!.......if they can do it why not the rest. If they don't, give us an option to cancel. Better still, put some stiff fines in place!


Well, Boatanical Gardens kicks booty. If you need something bigger than a brig, Boatanical Gardens can fit you out. Of course, no job too small. That's Boatanical Gardens on Epsilon.

</advertisement>

While it's neat that me flag's shop has accurate estimates, it's not the shop's fault.

Matt
----------------------------------------
I took my own advice.
[Dec 23, 2003 2:57:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nicuss



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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Ah, there's one other nasty feature about time estimates. Orders requiring expert labor will usually take a long time and estimates are proportionally longer. Order with no expert labor get done much faster jumping ahead of all the backlogged exper orders.

The quote you get when ordering will use the longest wait on all types of labor even if you order basic/skilled only. Once the order is placed if you check the wait time again you usually get a shorter estimate than before you ordered. So for instance you can order some shot with quoted time 20 hours, after you place the order it says 20 mins and it's done in an hour. The 20 hours were there because expert labor has 20 hour backolg (more like 60 hours really). Weird stuff, bleh.
[Dec 23, 2003 3:09:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Muffin

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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Seems to me that an option to cancel orders would lead to even less reliable delivery times. People could place orders for the same thing in multiple shops figuring they could cancel the rest after the fastest one finishes.
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Clover
Forever of Radical Dreamers
Everybody Conga!
[Dec 23, 2003 3:32:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    soaked+feathers [Link]  Go to top 
Tarrasque



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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Perhaps have a "restocking fee" of sorts for cancelled orders...like, cancelled orders only get back a prorated amount of their order based on how much labor is remaining. This would discourage folks from placing the same order in multiple shops, and from placing huge orders to create a backlog to booch a rival's shop...




__________
Captain Geno of the Infernal Infidels
Semper Infidelis!
----------------------------------------
Captain Lafitte (formerly Geno) of the Infernal Infidels
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homullus

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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No cancelling orders. It will make the estimates even worse.
[Dec 24, 2003 2:24:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
54x

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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This says two things to me:

1) Shopkeepers could do with a way to leave messages for their customers.
2) More control over labour and the que would be a Good Thing?.
----------------------------------------
Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
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dr4b

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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At the risk of being booched, I just wanted to express my wonder at the fact that the stuff I ordered ten days ago before leaving for my Winter Family Tour 2003 trip is still not done. The estimated times were all in the 2-3 days range when I ordered them, and they still have like 36-40 hours left on them.

I'm fine with things being a little late, but isn't this a bit ridiculous?
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Janthina, proprietor of Turban Outfitters on Jorvik.
Deadly, when I gather materials
Never engage any less than Imperials.

[Dec 30, 2003 6:48:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AkMedic

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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54x wrote: 
This says two things to me:

2) More control over labour and the que would be a Good Thing?.


I second this. I would very much like the ability to post a message at our shops, as generally we direct and bulk sell, and many do not know this. It would aid greatly in our quest:)

That, and being able to post a message at our inn would be helpfull as well.
----------------------------------------
Captain of the greatest crew in the seas.
King of the honorable and just flag Imperio.

Retired

Adversus solem ne loquitor
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by AkMedic at Dec 30, 2003 6:53:44 AM]
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atteSmythe

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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dr4b wrote: 
At the risk of being booched

Booched!

atteSmythe,
always happy to oblige
----------------------------------------
 
Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

[Dec 30, 2003 6:57:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://attesmythe.com [Link]  Go to top 
Jothmar



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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Best to assume that your order will take up to 10 times longer (thats sort of an arbitrary number I've never actually taken the time to figure how much off the orders in my shop or). If you need it sooner then that talk to different shops. There are shops out there that get the orders done on time. You just have to talk to the owner/manager.
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Kelyon Hawk of Fidelis Bellum
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Slummock



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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54x wrote: 
This says two things to me:

1) Shopkeepers could do with a way to leave messages for their customers.


this is a good idea.

 
2) More control over labour and the que would be a Good Thing?.


this is a bit vague. a bit.
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Glub (again)
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IcabobFreely

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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I think what is ment by more control over the labor que (which has been in many many other threads) is that they'd like to allocate the labor in the shops. For example someone in a distillery has over 200 employees. So all the labor for a given hour is most likely taken up by all the unskilled laborers. They'd like to be able to say allocate 50% of the labor for any given hour to unskilled and basic, and the other to skilled and expert. This would give the people that don't puzzle as much but can provide expert labor a chance to actually contribute that whats in the labor que. Personally I'm all for firing all but 20 to 30% of people that can't provide skilled and expert labor, but I don't own a shop as of yet. This is even harder for shops without labor puzzles in place to accomplish right now so more control over what labor goes where would be useful for them.
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Icabob of The Midnight Sun
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When you're having a really bad day, it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 muscles to extend your finger and flip them off.
[Jan 1, 2004 7:50:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    IcaTheBadOne [Link]  Go to top 
Matthias

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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Why don't we just do this automatically? Have a look at what proportion of labour we need, then make sure that the proportion of automatic hours is the same.

Matt
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I took my own advice.
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54x

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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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See all those tools for commodity management, and commodity prices, so that we have pretty good control over commodities?

I'd like a comparable ability to control labour... maybe things like "minimum of (x) hours of expert before the shoppe starts to use skilled, per shoppe hour" and "minimum of (x) hours of skilled before it starts to use basic" and also "maximum of (x) hours of (labour type)." I'd also like to be able to focus the que on any specific item, overriding the default order temporarily.

Of course setting these minimums too high would boochify the basic or skilled, so there'd need to be a maximum... but I can see it healing our direct labour problems nicely, while also allowing us to be biased towards special customers and rush their item along... Of course, this would have to effectively "pause" the estimates and may be a horrible thing to code, so really the ability to assign maxes and mins to the labour is the thing I want the most.

At the moment we only have an equivilent of the inventory screen for labour control. That is, we can see the que. I want to be able to do stuff that effects that que without jerking prices left and right.
----------------------------------------
Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
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Jothmar



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Re: Shops and (non!) delivery times. Reply to this Post
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The problem is with the puzzleing not with the automatic labor. Automatic labor takes whatever is needed first, so generally expert (hense why I as a expert distiller get between 12 and 20 hours of labor provided at night). When people puzzle it takes their labor no matter what kind they are provideing. Therein lies the problem. I believe a maximum nuber of orders that can be worked on in advance is what is called for (dev set, owner set, doesn't really matter). If the shop -can't- get the labor that is needed for a certain item at that time then it takes labor from someone that would push them over the -limit-. I believe that would greatly help the situation.
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Kelyon Hawk of Fidelis Bellum
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54x

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Uh.... that's exactly what I suggested. I said we wanted a minimum of so many expert labour hours before the shoppe would allow work on skilled, so why not be able to SET it ourselves? Presumably we get the same number of work hours per shoppe hour as we have optimal employees. So if we wanted lots of expert before skilled could be worked on, and had 15 optimum employees, we might set the expert minimum at 8 or 10.

This way we can reserve direct labour for experts only if that's what we really need, while still allowing people to practice and still having indirect labour fill in a nice, neater picture with a balanced number of all three hours...
----------------------------------------
Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
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Jothmar



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ahhh got cha, sorry misunderstood ye.

I don't know that it particularly matters whether the owners or the devs set it. However it is very important to at the same time allow lower levels of skill on later items in the queue -if and only if- there is not enough of the labor needed by the earlier items.
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Kelyon Hawk of Fidelis Bellum
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