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dime



Joined: Jun 9, 2003
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Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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This was brought up and discussed before here.

But it's been about 2 months, and I was hoping to revive it to hear some new discussion about it now that we've all had a little bit of experience and a few pvp battles with it.

In my personal opinion, I don't think the move bar should be shown at all in PvP sea battles. I think it makes for an awkward sea battle. One, (I), has to wait until the last second to throw up his moves to prevent the enemy from seeing how many moves he plans to play. And as for it being "partially hidden", that doesn't help things at all. It just adds more jumble and luck to the puzzle.

In the most awkward scenario, 2 good sea battlers are waiting for the last second to put up their moves, see the enemies' movebar, try to guess what it is, make changes to his own accordingly, wait those last frantic seconds for new changes and be prepared to make last nanosecond changes again. Throw lag into it, and it might as well be a free for all. Why go through so much trouble when it was so perfect before? You had to guess what your enemy was doing and you made your move. You either made it right, or you made it wrong and you learn from your mistake. You don't play silly mind games and seeing who can shorthand the other at the last second.

While I'm making ridiculous demands here, I guess I might as well bring brigands into this too. I hate sea battling brigands now. I loved the sea battle in Azure. Now seeing the movebar just makes me mad and frustrated. I don't really care if brigands cheat. (Actually, I do.. If I had a choice, I'd rather them make a choice based on probability and experience and stick with one move.. with the exception of the black ship, of course). But I no longer care to see them doing it. And it IS last second. I've seen them switch back and forth between moves as I do. Just to switch again to screw me after it was humanly possible for me to change moves again. If asking for change in their AI is out of the question, I at least don't want to see it. But if the movebar was removed, I think it would be possible to tone down their obvious cheating a bit, which would be sublime.
[Dec 22, 2003 2:10:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Badgundo



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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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I like the move bar just fine. I've found that I can place my moves, see the reaction, and decide whether I want to change, and make any needed change quick enough. If I wait for them to place moves, then try to react to that, they just mess me up. Take the tempo, dude.

As for PvP, I'm all for that being the 'free for all' you describe [not what I would have called it, but whatever], as that is what it really ought to be.
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BadGundo, Cap'n of the Sea Ogres
Husband of Captain Starashes
[Dec 22, 2003 3:18:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
triskaideka



Joined: Jul 16, 2003
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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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I think I feel the same as David about the move bar. It takes emphasis away from strategy and puts it on reflexes. In my opinion, that's a bad thing. I enjoyed sea battle more before it was in place.

If there has to be a move bar, however, I think the current one, which shows on how many turns the player is doing anything, is a great improvement over the original implementation, which showed exactly which slots had tokens in them.

I suspect that one reason the developers added the move bar was to try to speed up sea battle, which can often be a long and drawn-out procedure. In my experience, however, the move bar has not significantly changed the amount of time sea battle takes.
[Dec 22, 2003 11:43:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jothmar



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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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The only reason I like it is because it gives you some clue as to how 'fast' the ship is moving. It seems to me that you'd be able to tell if a ship was going to stand still or move on a turn just from looking at her, if she's not moving she isn't going to if she is. . . well she will. I know that the concept of 'speed' in Battle Nav isn't quite accurate but it makes sense to me.

I would however not want to count when a cannon ball is to be fired. After all you'd have no way of knowing that in real life (yeah I know fun before real) and as I see it the point of the bar was to make it so that you didn't waste a bunch of shot when a ship decided to just sit still for a round, I wasted many a cannon balls before the bar because of that. And with it including fireing the cannons in the bar I find myself doing this alot again with the brigands sitting still firing random useless cannon balls all over the place.

This leaves one problem, the insta-change of the brigand moves. I ask that how the brigands move be changed slightly. Put a limit on how fast the brigands change their pieces. So they could have one last second move change just like a human can but they can't go from none to four or vice versa. Obviously the brigands have to use our bar to decide what to do and there for will have to change their moves as we change our moves (just like we change our moves based upon their moves) but there is a limit to how fast we can change our moves. I would just want a similar limitation put into place for Brigands.
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Kelyon Hawk of Fidelis Bellum
[Dec 22, 2003 11:52:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
damienroc

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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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I dislike the movebar. In PvP it runs into all the problems that David described, and really removes the sense of strategy that made the old Sea Battle so fun (and, in a sense, was why Robo-Rally was such a great game)

In brigand battles, it is at best useless, and at worst a very bad distraction, and just more indication of brigand cheating. In one recent battle, I threw up my moves. After the timer ran out and I started moving, so did the brigand... with an empty move bar The existence of its moves didn't even pop up until after it had completed its first move.

Take out the move bar. Let us just work things out on our own. Even if the brigands cheat, we won't see any blatant indication of it.
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Shuranthae wrote: 
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!

[Dec 23, 2003 12:33:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://damienroc.sandwich.net    AryaTheFaceless [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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So don't look at it. I think it's fine.
[Dec 23, 2003 1:02:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Badgundo



Joined: Aug 16, 2003
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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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damienroc wrote: 
I dislike the movebar. In PvP it runs into all the problems that David described, and really removes the sense of strategy that made the old Sea Battle so fun (and, in a sense, was why Robo-Rally was such a great game)

In brigand battles, it is at best useless, and at worst a very bad distraction, and just more indication of brigand cheating. In one recent battle, I threw up my moves. After the timer ran out and I started moving, so did the brigand... with an empty move bar The existence of its moves didn't even pop up until after it had completed its first move.

Take out the move bar. Let us just work things out on our own. Even if the brigands cheat, we won't see any blatant indication of it.


You're stating your feelings about the movebar as cold facts. I find the movebar very useful, for the reasons stated above, so 'at best' it is far from useless.
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BadGundo, Cap'n of the Sea Ogres
Husband of Captain Starashes
[Dec 23, 2003 3:40:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tee_Beard



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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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The move-bar's useful if you only look at it once. Look at it more than once and you'll start competing with your opponent for reflexes. With brigands, there's no way in hell you'll get ahead.

Look at the move bar once, plan your move, predict what your opponent will do, enough. Brigands don't read minds. And neither do players.
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Thesis
It’s kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon.
[Dec 23, 2003 3:45:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
damienroc

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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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You're stating your feelings about the movebar as cold facts. I find the movebar very useful, for the reasons stated above, so 'at best' it is far from useless.


I'd think that the existance of situations where the brigand moves without any pieces in the movebar isn't just an opinion, but a fact. Now, this could be due to a variety of things, up to and including lag time between my computer and the server running the brigand. However, whatever the reason, it's a problem, and a big one in my mind. It's indicating that the game setup isn't viable to run this feature properly.

Proper setup: the movebar indicator is accurate to the number of moves that exist for that ship at that time.

Improper setup: the movebar is inaccurate to the number of moves that exist for that ship at that time.

By my obervations (which are what influence my feelings/opinions) the movebar indicator is FIRMLY in the improper setup.

If there is some other reason for its existance (Um... to deliberately mislead people? Why the hell is that useful in a game that's supposed to focus on person skill at puzzles?) I can't fathom it.
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Shuranthae wrote: 
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!

[Dec 23, 2003 5:10:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://damienroc.sandwich.net    AryaTheFaceless [Link]  Go to top 
quikbot

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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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the olde bigands used to smash into rocks and it was funny:D they would follow you into a current that would smash them into a rock and then you could laugh while they smashed themselves endlessly. i couldnt justify buying cannonballs then either. harr harr those were the days.
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Checkmate - Captain (playing again!)
The Thieves Guild
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[Dec 23, 2003 5:15:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.BOTLOVE.com [Link]  Go to top 
Slummock



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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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i enjoy the movment bar against brigs, you can use it to trick em. i dont pay much attention to what theirs says though.

cant comment on pvp.
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Glub (again)
[Dec 23, 2003 6:18:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Badgundo



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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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damienroc wrote: 


I'd think that the existance of situations where the brigand moves without any pieces in the movebar isn't just an opinion, but a fact.


Yes, if you try to place your tiles in the last instant, the brigands, not being human, will react in between the time your last tile is placed and the turn starts. This will lead to lag in display of the movebar. As both I and Thesis have explained, this is your own fault for trying to beat a computer on reflexes. As I said, take charge of the battle. Place your tokens. If you don't like the reaction, yank or place tokens to provoke a different reaction. I'm currently on dialup, and there's time to do that, even when I'm also sailing or gunning. Push the brigands around instead of letting them do it to you.

Walked right out of design into gameplay tips, there, so I think I'm done with this thread.
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BadGundo, Cap'n of the Sea Ogres
Husband of Captain Starashes
[Dec 23, 2003 6:19:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
damienroc

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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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Er... I didn't try to beat the computer, reflexes-wise. I placed my moves, as I would. I noticed that the Brigand wasn't moving, yes, but I didn't place at the last instant. I believe there was a second or two between the time when I finished placing moves, and the timer ran out.

Then I made my first move. Then the brigand moved. THEN the movebar for the brigand filled up.

Yes, it was reacting to my movement, that's not a problem, but there wasn't even any indication that it was going to move until after it had already started moving.

This is not a playstyle problem (of which I have -many- to work on in Sea Battle) this is a game design problem, because the system is sending out false information.

How would you feel if, when sailing, you caused a piece to drop and then its colors changed? Or if a breaker in swordfighting suddenly disappeared? This is pretty much the same thing. The idea of the puzzles is that we're given some information, and we're supposed to make decisions based upon that. As it stands, the sea battle puzzle gives inaccurated information. Whether or not you use the movebar or not isn't the point. I can't see any reason for thinking that it sending out misinformation is a bad thing. You don't look at it, fine, that's good for you, but that doesn't excuse a bad element in the game.
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Shuranthae wrote: 
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!

[Dec 24, 2003 12:52:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://damienroc.sandwich.net    AryaTheFaceless [Link]  Go to top 
Jothmar



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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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I have seen it twice that the brigands acted in more turns then their movement bar indicated they would. Once as myself and once watching my brother play. He told me it had happened to him once before that. It may be a bug.
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Kelyon Hawk of Fidelis Bellum
[Dec 24, 2003 1:08:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kiara



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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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Brigands not accurately showing thier moves has happened to me several times, and i have been blaming it on lag. Some times (especially when switching between puzzles) the brigand will keep its same move indication that it had in the last turn, and not show the new moves chosen. I found that if I start placing and removing sail tokens, it will sometimes clear up.

I don't know if this is the same trouble that damienroc is having, but it sounds like a similar lag-related problem.

In general. i like the sea battle move bar. I have found it very useful. However, I think it may help to have some indication if the brigand ship will fire cannons or only move. I know it may not matter much, since brigands shoot cannons almost every turn, but it is a little annoying to see the move indicatior 3/4 full when the ship isn't moving at all.
[Dec 28, 2003 4:30:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sarterixa



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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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They implemented showing cannons when the movement bar was first put in, then they removed it because it made it far too easy to tell what your opponent was going to do.
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Sart
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[Dec 28, 2003 4:52:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Badgundo



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Re: Rehash: PvP Sea Battle movebar Reply to this Post
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Actually, it was impossible to tell what the brigands would do, since they would react to anything you did and change their moves, and do it instantly. It was an even-worse version of what damienroc is complaining of now.

There appears to be no suitable way to simulate AI without the brigands 'knowing' what our moves are. They are simply given a fair amount of poor reactions to choose from among the good ones, given what our moves are. The movebar gives us a half-step toward that level of omniscience. I use it as a gauge rather than a guide, and I do pretty well in that fashion.

Oh, and if you still think the brigands don't have more data than we do, try setting down four moves, watch the brigands react, then swap in a different move counter [say to head your ship away instead of toward the brigands]. Watch their moves change, even though your move bar didn't.

Eagerly anticipating my imminent DSL, hoping lag will no longer be an issue...
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BadGundo, Cap'n of the Sea Ogres
Husband of Captain Starashes
[Dec 28, 2003 8:45:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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