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McGarvery

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Forage Jigsaw idea Reply to this Post
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This thread is specifically for the idea of building a Forage puzzle based around a jigsaw game.

It lists all the things that would go well with it, why I think it is a great idea, and some arguments others have had (with my counter-arguments)

THE IDEA
---

In order to forage, ye can either go to a boat's hull and pick up fruit (or gold) at random...

... or ye can go to the ISLAND itself, to the various resource spawns. From a resource spawn point, you can start a jigsaw puzzle by spending a labor hour, and collect some of the resource.

The jigsaws would be colorful pictures of the products made from the resources ye gather. The puzzle could be as small as 3x3, or a huge as 50x50.

Clicking a piece would pick it up. Then click to set it down again. Put it in the right place and it would 'click in' and become cemented.

After finishing the puzzle, you would be awarded a resource of the harvest-type you gathered. A menu would let you choose a friendly ship ported at the island to send it to, or simply discard the resource with a hum-hah.

For small or medium puzzles, one puzzler might be enough. But some things are just too valuable to sit and try to claim alone. A 50x50 puzzle would take a LONG time.

So, you can get your friends to help. If your crewmate is working a spawn point, you must find a different one, OR you can join in if you are in the same crew as the puzzle starter.

Helping with a resource also costs 1 labor hour. You won't get anything for helping, but your friend might finish faster with help.

Up to 12 players can cooperatively solve a jigsaw puzzle. When a player picks up a piece, it goes transparent at a floating 'hand' spot so two players don't try to place the same piece at once.

Each spawn on an island can be harvested just once per hour per player. Simpler types like Hemp may have many many spawn points, making it easier to collect.

Helping with other people's forages won't affect your ability to start your own forage in the same hour at the same spot - unless it runs you out of labor hours.

There is no time limit to the forage puzzle.

====

The benefits for Forage Jigsaw

1. Foraging can now get you the resources again. Awesome. People who want to make something specific, and spend time researching exactly which island it's on, how to run a stall, and get a ship ready for the voyage, will actually be able to COMPLETE their long-standing mission.

2. You must explore islands and find the resource spawn points. This means players getting OFF boats and DOING something on islands. I am a HUGE supporter of this part.

3. Conversely, exploring players will run across spawn points and actually be able to collect a little of their finds.

4. People who want to spend labor on cheap supplies(Iron, Hemp) can gather a fair amount in a short time, getting 24 a day - or perhaps more for REALLY cheap stuff, like 240 Stone per day.)

5. Harvesting cheese gets put to rest... In order to collect anything with real value requires puzzle effort. This effort acts as a balancing factor. Instead of click click click to harvest, you have to apply effort to get it done.

This also means labor-alts are less useful, since it would take too much time to get anything good.

6. Teams have a new activity in rarity collecting and can put together jigsaws cooperating. Sweet!

====
Major issues and my replies

- This system might be bottable, one person says.
I say, people aren't getting away with that on other puzzles, eh?

- Tis possible to flood the market with high end goods, one says.
But I say that a 50x50 jigsaw puzzle would take several hours to complete alone.

- Same person argues that no one would spend that much time.
I say, nobody but a fanatic would do it alone ... but with yer hearties' help, it would be nothin' more than a fun diversion. Plus, this comes at the expense of the labor and puzzle effort of you and your whole team (up to 12)

====
Contribution

Post support if you like the idea.

Obviously, this would require some art to be made for puzzles - quite a few pictures. Maybe we should chip in.

Let's see if this idea takes off.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by McGarvery at Oct 28, 2006 10:45:02 AM]
[Oct 18, 2006 6:07:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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Maybe the New Puzzle Fairy will bless our efforts by letting us write a forage puzzle. In a year. Maybe. Reply to this Post
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Jigsaw puzzles don't work on the PC.

Jigsaw-derived puzzles do, but those are Puzzle Games and not Puzzles. There's a sort of a difference there. I wrote about it somewhere around here.
----------------------------------------
Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Oct 18, 2006 6:50:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TarnumTheRed

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Re: Maybe the New Puzzle Fairy will bless our efforts by letting us write a forage puzzle. In a year. Maybe. Reply to this Post
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If you have a puzzle for foraging, then you would need to have a job for foraging as a possibility, and that in itself would keep the forage alts alive. If you had do a 50x50 puzzle for even a chance of getting gold, you might as well remove gold from the economy.

Also, the option of having multiple people work on the same puzzle is not really feasible. Currently, all games are played client side, and then results relayed to the server. In SF, Rumble, and drinking, your opponents and team mate's moves are relayed to you from the server (with attacks put in a que), however there is a bit of a delay, and there is no chance you are interacting with the same items.

With the way the application works, how would the game handle when two or more people are trying to pick up the same piece and place it in different locations?
----------------------------------------
Tarnum

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I guess it's just fun to poke the retarded bunny.
Muroni wrote: 
Who isn't sure that leif will let me enter him, but I'm willing to try.

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by TarnumTheRed at Oct 18, 2006 6:56:57 AM]
[Oct 18, 2006 6:56:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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Re: Maybe the New Puzzle Fairy will bless our efforts by letting us write a forage puzzle. In a year. Maybe. Reply to this Post
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With the way the application works, how would the game handle when two or more people are trying to pick up the same piece and place it in different locations?


You select a piece, and drag it around. It goes tri-state (grey) on your machine. A message is sent to the server that you are trying to work with it. You move it, and drag it someplace, and let go of it. It stays grey.

Other people get a message from the server that a piece is being played with; that piece goes grey on their machine, until the server sends a new location update.

The problem occurs if two people are trying to use the same piece. In that case, the server sees one person claim it, and grey it. Another person then tries to use the grey piece, and the server "rejects" that. The second person's client then puts the piece back, and pops up "Server reports that piece in use by Leekspin", or something like that.
----------------------------------------
"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

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bien

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Re: Maybe the New Puzzle Fairy will bless our efforts by letting us write a forage puzzle. In a year. Maybe. Reply to this Post
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This site lets multiple people play and fight over pieces:

http://www.lunchtimers.com/games/jigsaw/hard.cfm

Ages ago I was going to request that something like this be coded into a table for houses, with PP pictures (portraits, screenies, whatever art is already existing).
Now, some twerp can come along and keep pulling pieces out, which is why it would only be suitable for private places.

Like I said, I was going to put it in as a request for a puzzle table for houses ages ago, as I think it would be easy to implement (using existing table art, paint a few puzzle pieces on it, use existing art for the puzzles, steal code from that site ;) ) but ...... I've kinda given up on GD. =(
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by bien at Oct 18, 2006 1:41:22 PM]
[Oct 18, 2006 1:40:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
McGarvery

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Re: Maybe the New Puzzle Fairy will bless our efforts by letting us write a forage puzzle. In a year. Maybe. Reply to this Post
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Jigsaw puzzles don't work on the PC.

Jigsaw-derived puzzles do, but those are Puzzle Games and not Puzzles. There's a sort of a difference there. I wrote about it somewhere around here.


You have a point... but many people think jigsaws are entertaining. Foraging never had any depth of competition.

The lack of competitive depth to the puzzle hasn't kept jigsaw puzzles from being 'played' for years upon years. They are fun and people enjoy them.

People play games, and jigsaw is one of them.

In case anyone should ask, there's no way to puzzle-forage gold when there are no gold spawns and you get the spawn's item 100%. Conventional ship-forage would continue to be the source of gold.

This would be more of an addition than a change. =)
[Oct 18, 2006 8:29:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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The whole idea of real media paper gets me all ...happy. Reply to this Post
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You misunderstand. Jigsaw puzzles don't work on the pc.

They do not work.

Work. Not. They.

People may like'em; hell, I enjoy the occasional puzzle (usually puzz-3d), but this here, the PC, this is not a medium in which they work.

On the PC jigsaw puzzles aren't fun or challenging basically at all. Most of that has to do with certain limitations to the genre which YPP is not in a position to overcome. Not only that, PC puzzles have the distinct lack of tactile feedback that's essential to the puzzle mindset. There's something about that satisfying *click* or *snap* or *clunk* or any other myriad other onomatopoeia that a mouse and keyboard and speakers cannot replicate, even if you have that awesome force-feedback mouse someone made a few years back.

Personally I think jigsaw puzzles will make a sort of comeback in the relatively near future, just as soon as OLEDs get real cheap. Puzzle pieces are more than large enough to hold a small RF transciever and chip and power source, and/or maybe the box could hold a sort of server and bank of images/movies--then you can physically build a moving puzzle. Neat! The technology basically exists already, so honestly it's just a matter of time.
----------------------------------------
Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Oct 18, 2006 9:08:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
McGarvery

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Re: The whole idea of real media paper gets me all ...happy. Reply to this Post
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You misunderstand. Jigsaw puzzles don't work on the pc.

They do not work.

Work. Not. They.

People may like'em; hell, I enjoy the occasional puzzle (usually puzz-3d), but this here, the PC, this is not a medium in which they work.

On the PC jigsaw puzzles aren't fun or challenging basically at all. Most of that has to do with certain limitations to the genre which YPP is not in a position to overcome. Not only that, PC puzzles have the distinct lack of tactile feedback that's essential to the puzzle mindset. There's something about that satisfying *click* or *snap* or *clunk* or any other myriad other onomatopoeia that a mouse and keyboard and speakers cannot replicate, even if you have that awesome force-feedback mouse someone made a few years back.

Personally I think jigsaw puzzles will make a sort of comeback in the relatively near future, just as soon as OLEDs get real cheap. Puzzle pieces are more than large enough to hold a small RF transciever and chip and power source, and/or maybe the box could hold a sort of server and bank of images/movies--then you can physically build a moving puzzle. Neat! The technology basically exists already, so honestly it's just a matter of time.


Why look! It's people having FUN! With a jigsaw!
(Gaiaonline, Jigsaw game)

This needs some improvement. In particular, if too many pieces are overlapping, the connection of pieces needs to be prevented. This prevents piece piling for easy hookups.

But it's an easy and fast example of how the challenge of assembly for wealth and goodies, DOES work and IS fun.

Just imagine if players could COOPERATE on this little diversion.
And OOO has the infrastructure for that.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by McGarvery at Oct 27, 2006 8:05:41 PM]
[Oct 27, 2006 7:19:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sari



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Re: The whole idea of real media paper gets me all ...happy. Reply to this Post
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You misunderstand. Jigsaw puzzles don't work on the pc.

On the PC jigsaw puzzles aren't fun or challenging basically at all. Most of that has to do with certain limitations to the genre which YPP is not in a position to overcome.


As an avid jigsaw puzzler, I'm very confused by this statement. The only problems I've seen in computer-based jigsaw puzzles is that few of them have enough pieces to provide a challenge to experienced puzzlers and that many rely purely on image-connection rather than piece-shape, which rules out any images with large expanses of one color. The lack of rotation in common programs is also annoying.

However, there are programs out there that have overcome all of these issues. I have one of them on my desktop that allows me to import any image I like, set piece count, shape of pieces, randomness of cut pattern, and turn rotation on or off as I like. I find it just as satisfying as a physical jigsaw, except for, as you mentioned, the lack of physical feedback.

What limitations are you thinking of?
[Oct 27, 2006 10:45:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
McGarvery

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Re: Puzzle Jigsaw idea Reply to this Post
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Here's a sample listing of how long it might take to finish up a puzzle in a game like this.


Stone - Difficulty 1 (3 mins), x10 pull
Sugar Cane - Difficulty 1 (3 mins), 5x Pull
Hemp - Difficulty 1 (3 mins), 5x Pull
Wood - Difficulty 1 (3 mins)
Iron - Difficulty 1 (3 mins)
Lily of the Valley - Difficulty 1 (3 mins)
Tellerium - Difficulty 1 (3 mins)
Iris - Difficulty 2 (6 mins)
Cubanite - Difficulty 2 (6 mins)
Weld - Difficulty 3 (9 mins)
Sincosite - Difficulty 4 (12 mins)
Nettle - Difficulty 4 (12 mins)
Elderberries - Difficulty 6 (18 mins)
Serandite - Difficulty 10 (30 mins)
Madder - Difficulty 10 (30 mins)
Butterfly Weed - Difficulty 20 (1 hour)
Thorianite - Difficulty 20 (1 hour)
Lobelia - Difficulty 30 (1.5 hours)
Chalcocite - Difficulty 30 (1.5 hours)
Papagoite - Difficulty 40 (2 hours)
Pokeweed - Difficulty 40 (2 hours)
Broom Flower - Difficulty 50 (2.5 hours)
Masuyite - Difficulty 60 (3 hours)
Indigo - Difficulty 70 (3.5 hours)
Leushite - Difficulty 80 (4 hours)
Lorandite - Difficulty 100 (5 hours)
Yarrow - Difficulty 100 (5 hours)
Sassafras - Difficulty 140 (7 hours)

Hour listings are for a fairly competent player who is puzzling alone. If you and 9 shipmates puzzle together on Sassafras, estimated time to complete is 7/10ths an hour.

I am erring towards the side of excess length, giving an hour's puzzling+ Labor Hour about 500 PoE in weight.
If you think an hour of puzzle time + 1 hour labor is worth 1k, then halve all values (double pull sizes for difficulty 1 puzzles)

Other notable guidelines used:
1 Labor hour for 1 unit of wood, no way to get more than 1 unit of wood per labor hour. If this is not the issue I THINK it is, it can be changed. Wood is still QUICKLY gatherable because of low puzzle difficulty.

Less valuable goods can be gained for the same effort as wood at a multiplied rate to wood (more than 1 per completion)

Another possible scale: Consider difficulty x2 as # of minutes to clear the puzzle. This put the value of Puzzle+Labor around 750.
It means a Sassafras would only take 4.6 hours to harvest ... a marathon for a loner, but for a harvest team of 12, about 35-40 minutes work. Perfect. A harvester can work off 24 hours of his labor badge collecting up Sugar Cane or Hemp and get 120 units in about an hour overall. Maybe not immediately skimmable, but certainly able to be independent.
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[Edit 9 times, last edit by McGarvery at Oct 28, 2006 10:56:00 AM]
[Oct 28, 2006 12:58:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
McGarvery

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Ship loading would work pretty much like Store transfer, except it would send the 1 unit of whatever-you-earned to your ship.


* Mcgarvery loaded 1 unit of Chalcocite onto the vessel.

The pictures available would be based on the number of products produced by that item.
A lot of the super common commods (Stone, etc.) would have a big assortment of pictures. That would be good for folks who have to harvest many bushels.

Sugar Cane - 4+? (Swill, Grog, Rum, Barrel o' Cane, maybe all Mugs)
Broom Flower - 7 potential pictures (Paint:Pink, Potions, Chalice, Horn, Pitcher, Laurel, Crates of Herbs and spices)
Butterfly Weed - 4 (Paint:Orange, Enamel, Hair Dye, Herbs and spices)
Chalcocite - 7 ( Armor, Urn, Short sword, Saber, Skull Dagger, Leather Gloves, Cloth: Gray )
Cowslip - 4 (Paint:Aqua, Potions, Tall Fetish, Creat of Herbs and Spices)
Cubanite - 8 (Whisking potion, Blotter, Wall Lamp, Candles, Ship Plans, Tap, Treasure Drop Table, Falchion)
Elderberries - 8 (Enamel, paint:Blue, Hair Dye, Alchemicals, Urn, Fetish, Herbs and Spices, Laurel)
Hemp - 20 pics (Hemp Oil, Cloth, Painting, Blotter, Books, Broken Wheel, Bulletin Board, Crate o' Hemp!, Tapestry, Book Desk, Mannequin, Notebooks, Paper and quill, Posters, Rumble Pit, Ship Plans, Spinning Wheel, Tournament Board, Gauntlets, Rope Coils)

Indigo - 4 (Paint: Navy, Potions, Chalice, Crate of Spices)
Iris Root - 8 (Paint: Tan, Paint: Grey, Potion, Flagon, Goblet, Horn, Tankard, Crate o Herbs!)

Leushite - 6 (Rapier, Poniard, Cloth: Maroon, Belaying Pin, Blackjack, Hammer)
Lily o the Valley - 9 (Paint:Lime, Potions, Goblet, Pitcher, Stein, Scroll, Crate o Herbs!, Potted Palm, Vase with Plant)
Lobelia - 9 (Lacquer, Paint: Violet, Potions, Flagon, Skull(Mug), Stein, Tankard, Skull, Crate o Herbs)
Lorandite - 7 (Cleaver, Longsword, Scimitar, Cane, Chain, Gauntlets, Cloth: Purple)
Madder - 12 (Paint: Maroon, Dye, Enamel, Potions, Alchemicals, Jars, Mixing Skull, Mortar and Pestle, Paper and Quill, Powder Bag, Ship Plans, Crate of Spices!)

Masuyite - 6 (Cutlass, Falchion, Scimitar, Brass Knuckles, Hammer, Skull Rings)
Nettle - 6 (Paint: Green, Potions, Alchemicals, Blotter, Potted Plant, Crate of Herbs!)

Old Man's Beard - 7(Paint:Brown, Paint:Maroon, Brush, Paint: Tan, Potions, Brown Cloth, Crate o Spices!)

Papagoite 3 - (Skull Dagger, Gauntlets, Navy Cloth)
Pokeweed Berries- 4 (Enamel, Paint:Purple, Potions, Crate o Spices!)
Sassafras- 6 (Black Enamel, potions, Skull mug, Alchemicals, Skull, crate o spices!)
Serandite - 8 (Paint:Pink, Saber, Stiletto, Cane, Chain, Gauntlets, Skull Rings, Pink Cloth)
Sincosite - 5 (Still, Dirk, Longsword, Cane, Aqua Cloth)
Tellurium - 16 (Aqua paint, Grey Paint, White Paint, Urn, Candles, Claw Foot Tub, Globe, Marble Table, Scales, Vase with plant, Poniard, Saber, Skull Rings, Grey cloth, Lime cloth, white cloth)
Thorianite - 3 (Armor, Cleaver, Falchion)
Weld - (Potions, Yellow paint, enamel, mortar and pestle, Powder bag, urn, crate o spices!)
Yarrow - (Potions, White Enamel, Crate o Herbs, Laurel)

Pictures needed would include:
Crates o' Herbs and Spices!
Enamel bottle and assortment of blades (palette swap)
Potions and Alchemy curiosities
People drinking swill
People drinking grog
People drinking rum
Pictures of mugs (1 each)
Pictures of swords (1 each)
Pictures of bludgeons (1 each)
Paint (Palette swap)
Dye (Palette swap)
Suit of Armor
Urn
Tall Fetish
Blotter
Lamp
Candles
Ship's Plans
Broken Wheel
Tap
Treasure Drop table
Bulletin Board
Tapestry
Painting
Desk
Mannequin
Notebooks, papers, scrolls and quill
Posters
Rumble Pit
Spinning Wheel
Potted plant
Vase with plant
Alchemicals set
Jars
A mixing skull
Powder Bag
Cannonballs
Globe
Marble Table
Mortar and Pestle
Claw Foot Tub

And possibly some of the more complicated things produced with each resource:

- Pictures of shops and storefronts
- Pictures of boats
- Pictures of finished clothing

This is all just idea-generating. There's obviously lots of pictures that could be used.
[Oct 28, 2006 10:21:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
McGarvery

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Re: Puzzle Jigsaw idea Reply to this Post
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Some other things I think are important...

Whether or not you get more than 1 unit per harvest... I don't claim to have good/bad evidence on that.

Doing away with original foraging... Well, you might get awarded Gold for solving a jigsaw, or get the "Gold" puzzle instead (And have to yell for your shipmates to help you =D)

This would add a great piratey feel.

Mcgarvery crew chats : "MATEYS! I just struck gold down at Penobscot! But this puzzle is NUTS! D= Come help me haul it in!! =D =D"

And if you don't solve it right away, puzzle-save would let you go back and finish the puzzle later, mining at your 'secret gold site' until you obtain the one precious Gold Ore, and then resuming normal foraging again. Starting and finishing a different puzzle shouldn't influence this... but choosing to SAVE a different puzzle should have a major effect. And to prevent Labor scumming, your labor hour is burned when you START the puzzle, so check/quit just costs you resources as you scrounge for gold. (Though quick-harvest activities like Wood gathering would find more gold due to more often checks)

But a newbie might get bombed with this puzzle while Harvesting wood X__X
So it should be possible to use another spawn to continue collecting whatever resource you wanted.


Also I don't know if there are fruit spawns around each island.
But I DO know that anyone who puts the effort into finishing a jigsaw is going to WANT his RESOURCE D:

If he gets a banana, it will not be fun.

So iunno. Maybe scrap gold-by-puzzle and instead just have forage from boat for fruit/gold, forage from spawn for resource. Maybe call puzzle-foraging, "HARVESTING" and have it be a totally different animal.

Maybe not :3
Maybe get rid of old Forage system altogether and ADD fruit spawns or something.
Or maybe give fruit as a consolation prize for quitting the puzzle. So fruit harvesting would be puzzle->Quit, puzzle-> Quit... where fruit type you get depends on how long you puzzled. That's un-elegant though.
An alternative is to REMOVE the platypus that is fruit, just forage for resources that HELP the economy.

*shrug* They're ideas.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by McGarvery at Oct 28, 2006 10:39:01 AM]
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BehindCurtai

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The number of items per pull is already determined by the game. For low end items, it's about 60 poe worth per pull.

10 hemp, 2 wood, 4 iron are the numbers I remember. You can check these out by doing a copy/paste of an item row from the trading screen.

The numbers at the beginning identify commodity ID, weight and volume, and number per pull.
----------------------------------------
"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
Why buy sham poo when real poo is so readily available

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DreadedChris



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I immensely dislike the notion of being able to pick the resource to puzzle for with scaled difficulty puzzles and such.

Not that what I like matters: it won't happen. It completely eliminates the existing ability to scale resources by demand and keep things in balance. The self-balancing market spawn may be good or bad, but I believe the ringers are deaf to criticism of it, and any change to commodity spawn needs to account for that.

Puzzling for one puzzle and being rewarded with some number of items based on your puzzle score, allows for spawn to be adjusted. The chance of harvesting 'real' commodities can go up and down with tax price. If you miss your chance at the island's 'real' commodity spawn, you get randomly cheap fruit / expensive fruit / gold in its current ratios. Reward for better puzzling is scaled so that a better score harvests more items (each running through its random chances individually.)

And I like computer jigsaws just fine. Ones with rotation are better than ones without, of course. The small number of pieces in most implementations does make them a game measured in minutes rather than hours, but I'm not sure how terrible that really is, as long as you have the right expectation.
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~< The Dread Pirate Chris >~
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