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Silverstar

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[Request] Improved messages Reply to this Post
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[Edit: Many of these are not log specific, but overall changes to the messages displayed - even in the normal chat window while playing the game - only a few are inappropriate in the chat window (just to be clear;-)]

I did a search, but only found this topic mentioned off-handedly in unrelated threads, so I decided to post a new thread to give it more visibility.

Post-processing the chat logs is a great way of gathering statistics, but it is a difficult and incomplete process, due to the messages logged. I realize changing the messages isn't a high priority, but it should be relatively simple (hopefully) I put the example additions in bold and deletions in italics.

Specific messages and example rewrites:
Fictitious Pirate issued an order to put into port [at island].
Fictitious Pirate issued an order to deport [from island].
(and, when setting sail without deporting first)
Fictitious Pirate issued an order to [deport from island and] set the vessel to sail.

Even better would be to add the vessel name, ie:
Fictitious Pirate issued an order [for the Fictitious Example to put into port at island]

Best yet would be to automatically follow the above messages with a short listing of the ships' manifest: (atleast, for officers and above)
Manifest for the Fictitious Example; Booty Chest: 1,198 PoE, 2 Fine Rum, 3 Small Canonballs, 29 Stone, 1 Kraken's Blood; Hold: 0 PoE, 15 Fine Rum, 10 Small Canonballs, 50 Stone; Navigation Table: Gaea to Epsilon, Orca to Delphi, Tinga to Gamma; Pirates: Silverstar [Officer], Fictitious Pirate [Jobbing Pirate], Dashing Amy [Cabin Boy]; Crew: Land Lubbers; Flag: Land Sharks

(Note: Booty Chest/Hold data is 'important', Pirate listing is 'useful', Rank, Crew, Flag and Navigation Table are merely 'nice')

On end of combat, a listing of the goods won/lost would be useful:
The victors plundered 566 pieces of eight and 3 units of goods, 1 Small Canonball, 1 Stone and 1 Fine Rum from the defeated vessel.

A comma seperated list like this works well and is easy to read (and parse). I don't know about others, but in my case, I treat PoE as just another unit of goods, and the above formatting kinda plays to that. In the case of no PoE, just drop that display [or display no pieces of eight, like it does now, if that's easier], and no goods would simply not list any goods. In the case of a totally worthless plunder, the message could be:

'The victors plundered no pieces of eight and no goods nothing from the defeated vessel'

List the name of the winning ship when battle is over, too:
Game over. Winners: Silverstar, Humble Erek, Dashing Rob, Fictitious Speciman, Brave Gayle, Foolhardy Grey, Glum William of the Good-Ship Lollipop.

(Finding out what crew goes with what ship is difficult - as the two are never listed together - currently, I determine which ship I'm on by assuming it is the ship that collided that was not listed in the prior intercepted log message, and I determine which ship won, and thus which ship the winners were on, by looking for a specific name in the list of winners - although I'm rewriting this to check if the othership was entirely NPPs, and if not, to use a set of hint names from messages related to crewmembers on my ship)

Listing the defeated players would be nice, too (but is less important, as this data is relatively easilly deducable already):
Game over. Winners: Silverstar, Humble Erek of the Good-Ship Lollipop defeated Dashing Rob, Fictitious Pirate of the Love Boat

When boarding/leaving a vessel, use a standardized message, and again log the ship name:
IE: If boarding a ship of your crew:
Going aboard the Fictitious Example...

When leaving a ship, nothing at all is logged, unless you whisk off to home. How about logging this event (no matter how you leave)
Leaving the Fictitious Example...

When accepting a job offer, no boarding message is logged, either.
You accepted the offer to job with 'Land Lubbers'.
Going aboard the Fictitious Example...
Your money was deposited at a bank on Noman Island.

(If they are in battle, though, you don't actually board, so no boarding message should be displayed)

Finally... when in the chat screen, or in the chat log, there is no way to determine crew and jcrew messages from speak, emote and vessel. How about prepending these with [crew] and [jcrew] (or [jobbing]) when viewing the chat window, and when logging. (Do vessel and speak work different on ships? If so, then also [vessel])

Anyways, as I said, I know this will probably be a low priority, but it is probably also low-hanging fruit and can be done pretty easilly, unless some of this data simply isn't available at the places in the code where the messages are logged.
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Silvermoon, First Mate, Silver Dragon Trading Company
Silverstar, Instructor, Puzzle Pirates Academy (retired)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Silverstar at Nov 6, 2003 6:59:37 AM]
[Nov 6, 2003 6:59:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/chirik    Chirik    yppSilvermoon [Link]  Go to top 
Telastyn



Joined: Jul 30, 2003
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Re: [Request] Improved messages Reply to this Post
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I'm also interested in this a bit, though devs have already mentioned that a ship log is in the works/List. Perhaps a better request would be to make the ship log exportable with pirate came aboard/left info and combat results ["$pirate was eliminated!"]



Plus then all the statistics can be kept better than just when the chat logger happens to be playing.
[Nov 6, 2003 7:17:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fabozz



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Yes, have some. Reply to this Post
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I too would put this to very good use, and I support nearly everything Silverstar suggested--whatever we can get would be great!

The one thing I would not support is the manifest report showing current contents. Putting the bling-bling into the chat log I'm 110% in favor of. However, the separation between Ye Hold and Ye Wheel actually plays a role in the game--when I'm helming a sloop I can run forward to check the rum tanks, but driving the war brig I have to ask someone to do this for me. Getting this report delivered by machine is just one less thing I have to get humans to do for me on the ship, which is contrary to the spirit of this highly-social game.
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Prodigal Son of Orange Revolution
[Nov 6, 2003 7:51:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Silverstar

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Re: Yes, have some. Reply to this Post
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Fabozz wrote: 
The one thing I would not support is the manifest report showing current contents. Putting the bling-bling into the chat log I'm 110% in favor of.


I don't actually care if the data appears on the screen, so much as in the logs - I'm not looking at a way of 'how can I see this without looking at the hold' as a way of 'how can I get a log of the voyage' - a complete log should include the exact state of the ship at start, any changes (Oh, log trades, too!) and the log at the end.

Looking at the hold at the very beginning/very end isn't too difficult (and, I already do this anyways, but I have to write it down by hand), but to be more accurate, it would be nice to log the data in a specific, parsable format. I absolutely want the bling.bling data logged, though - if I sit there and write it down, people start asking 'why are we sitting here'? and I don't get to be on nav while doing it, either.

My interest here is post-processing.
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Silvermoon, First Mate, Silver Dragon Trading Company
Silverstar, Instructor, Puzzle Pirates Academy (retired)
[Nov 6, 2003 8:12:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/chirik    Chirik    yppSilvermoon [Link]  Go to top 
Tee_Beard



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Re: [Request] Improved messages Reply to this Post
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I can see where you're going. Plug the logs into a perl or python script, and Bob's you're uncle...

Yeah. I like it. Especially if it appears only on the log and not on the screen. Hmm.
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Thesis
It’s kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon.
[Nov 6, 2003 9:47:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Silverstar

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Re: [Request] Improved messages Reply to this Post
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Tee_Beard wrote: 
Plug the logs into a perl or python script, and Bob's you're uncle...


Which is exactly what I am doing - I have a perl script which puts scans half a dozen different log lines, cross-references data from them, and eventually can make a pretty good overview of battles.

At this point, I've rewriting it using perl modules and objects. I've actually have the basic structure of the modules done, and most of the objects I need to define so far.

My basic premise is to group stats by voyage, and is event based, so I have a Voyage object which has a ship name and list of event objects. Each event object contains a timestamp, event type, and (optionally) data - in the case of some events, that's a name (for things like boarding a vessel) for others, that is itself the reference to another object (Battle, to group all the statistics related to a Battle, and Port, to group all statistics related to being in Port)

I'm pretty new with writing perl modules and objects, but this seems sensible.

I have the following modules written already, (each representing one object type)

YPP::Util
(non-object utility subroutines used inside the rest)

YPP::Voyage
YPP::Voyage::Event
Track a voyage of a ship - minimally, hop from one island to another, but I intend to have it merge multiple voyages of the same ship if they occur within the same time. Events are start (pseudo event), board (pirate boarded the vessel, contains name), port (put into port, ref port object), battle (sea battle, ref seabattle object), leave (pirate leaves vessel, contains name) and helm (pirate takes helm, contains name)

YPP::Voyage::Battle
YPP::Voyage::Battle::Event
Track a specific battle - has two ship objects, each containing ship name [if available] and crewmembers [if available], battle event log (every step of the battle), etc.

YPP::Voyage::Ship
Ship object. This is simply the name of the ship (if known) and the crew members of the ship (if known) - it's meant to contain battle-related ship data, but could be expanded to also be more general, and allow setting of ship state - crew name, flag, hold, booty, maps, etc, although none of this is needed for battle data.

I still plan (but haven't written)
YPP::Voyage::Port
YPP::Voyage::Port::Event
Port object - in reality, all I can put here right now is ported, deported and foraged - nothing else relevant is logged that I've noticed yet (but I do occasionally find new ways to get data, and may come up with something else - it was only earlier this week it occured to me I could find the crew roster of the losing ship in battle by looking at the 'Eliminated' messages and subtracting winners from the full list.

Anyways, that's about the state of the rewrite, and it may not be as well designed as it could be (I'm not that familiar with object programming, but it seems to make sense here) I haven't rewritten the core code to use this yet, so it is entirely untested, but if people are curious and know perl, I can make it available.

Actually, with the current log data, I can get a pretty complete picture of a voyage - what I can't get is: island names, items traded and state of goods on the vessel. Other data I can get, but need to do some grunt work. (IE: if you're on a ship, and I've already been able to determine the name of it, I can put a name with a battle where one ship disengaged, even though your ship name is only displayed at one point - when the swordfight starts (the X and Y collided and a meelee breaks out) but once you put in at an island, or someone leaves the vessel, I don't know anymore what the name of your ship is. Likewise, I don't know crew until after a swordfight is over, and I guess at which side goes with which ship based on whether one side was entirely NPPs, or if it was PvP, by looking for certain names in the crew lists) It actually works amazingly, given all that.
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Silvermoon, First Mate, Silver Dragon Trading Company
Silverstar, Instructor, Puzzle Pirates Academy (retired)
[Nov 6, 2003 10:26:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/chirik    Chirik    yppSilvermoon [Link]  Go to top 
ekerin

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Re: [Request] Improved messages Reply to this Post
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I can imagine it now, the Great Puzzle Pirates Data Warehouse. Now you can tell if your Alt is conspiring against you, or if your are conspiring against yourself. All Joking aside, I think most of this is a cool idea, Especially the Perl Modules!

The one I really agree with is: Logging what channel that a message came through on. I thought about it last week, and ment to post it, but alas, forgot. Basically I was in a meeting, and we wanted to post the minutes of the metting to our forums, and I had chat log on to capture everything. But looking at my log later I would have had to manually filter out countless tells (which aren't hard, since it goes "Soandso tells you,"), and a huge ammout of crew chat, which I would have had to do by hand, since there's no way to programatically tell if they are related.

I was thinking something along the lines of [TIME] <CHANNEL> MESSAGE.

That way, a simple Perl script, or even importing it into a spreadsheet you could quickly filter the other channels out of the log, and make it ready for posting.
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Hack - I don't even play poker now...
Bootseg.com
[Nov 7, 2003 1:44:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.bootseg.com [Link]  Go to top 
Peghead
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chat logs Reply to this Post
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Cool ideas.

But it's not going to happen. The chat log is currently a hack that just outputs the text from the full-screen history. Having it do any more is not going to make the game more fun for 99.9% of the people who play.

Some of what you want will come in the form of ship logs.
[Nov 7, 2003 3:14:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sugarpie



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Peghead wrote: 
Some of what you want will come in the form of ship logs.


oooooh.

aaaaah.
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Sugarpie
The Violet (er... Violent?) Pirate
Member of Black Death
Former Governor of Orca
Piggy Josiah R.I.P.

[Nov 7, 2003 3:17:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Genavee



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Re: [Request] Improved messages Reply to this Post
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And manually sorting is exactly what I did when posting those minutes, Hack.

The time stamp is a god-send though, because I knew the time that the meeting started, and ended. So... I quickly shortened my editing task to only 24 pages of log, instead of 124 pages. (As an aside, how many days worth of information is kept within a log, and how often is the log purged?)

After that, I filtered out crew chatter (a <CREW> tag would be perfect for this. Great idea!) and other misc. comments and such. Tells are very easy to get rid of, just by searching for that string "*** tells you,". Then, I attemped to string together the comments that were related to one another (because 5 people chatting all at the same time can lead to some odd reading, and a big ole "HUH").

My final log was pretty concise (I thought), and covered off the basic points of the meeting, along with the feedback of the attendees.

But I also had to take well over 30 minutes to edit out the irrelivant junk. A tool or 3, to help me filter out some of the noise are most welcome!
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Genavee

Senior Officer of The Sea Dogs
[Nov 7, 2003 3:33:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fabozz



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Re: [Request] Improved messages Reply to this Post
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As an aside, how many days worth of information is kept within a log, and how often is the log purged?

I can answer that: It's never purged. I've never turned chat logging off, and my chat log stretches all the way back to the very first day they were available in Azure, some 2 megabytes ago...
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Prodigal Son of Orange Revolution
[Nov 7, 2003 4:27:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fabozz



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Re: [Request] Improved messages Reply to this Post
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Having it do any more is not going to make the game more fun for 99.9% of the people who play. Some of what you want will come in the form of ship logs.

On the other hand, expose more data in the chat log and people like Silverstar and myself will write the ship log feature for you, in the form of third-party utilities. Then the game gets more fun for a lot of people, and you don't have to get bogged down in designing and implementing all the UI code ships logs will require.
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Prodigal Son of Orange Revolution
[Nov 7, 2003 4:33:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ekerin

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Re: [Request] Improved messages Reply to this Post
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Fabozz wrote: 
 
Having it do any more is not going to make the game more fun for 99.9% of the people who play. Some of what you want will come in the form of ship logs.

On the other hand, expose more data in the chat log and people like Silverstar and myself will write the ship log feature for you, in the form of third-party utilities. Then the game gets more fun for a lot of people, and you don't have to get bogged down in designing and implementing all the UI code ships logs will require.


Except that the Ship's log is (suppost to) includes things anybody bought/sold/deposited/withdrawled on the ship, while the chat log would just include things you yourself did.
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Hack - I don't even play poker now...
Bootseg.com
[Nov 7, 2003 4:57:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.bootseg.com [Link]  Go to top 
jewles



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Peghead wrote: 
Cool ideas.

But it's not going to happen. The chat log is currently a hack that just outputs the text from the full-screen history. Having it do any more is not going to make the game more fun for 99.9% of the people who play.

Some of what you want will come in the form of ship logs.

The problem is the full screen text doesn't show the difference between crew messages and regular speech. Things that appear different when displayed at the bottom of the screen should still be distinguishable in the full screen (with color or tags, although color is lost when written to the chat log so maybe tags are better)
[Nov 7, 2003 5:20:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Stinktoe



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See the thing with scripting the chat logs is that it's then dependent on you to share that with your crewmates. If you wanted to sell all the comms and steal all the poe and maps off a ship, there's still no log to tell on you.

Ships logs are still going to be a necessity.
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Don Quevegas
Officer of the Yo-Ho Yo-Yos
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[Nov 7, 2003 7:23:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Silverstar

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Peghead wrote: 
Cool ideas.

But it's not going to happen. The chat log is currently a hack that just outputs the text from the full-screen history.


It occurs to me, I may have phrased some things badly - most of these changes can be made to the message display on the screen AND logged - only one or two would really be less appropriate to display.

IE - Adding the ship and/or island name to the messages already displayed shouldn't have any negative effects except making the output a little longer. Those can be safely display to the normal screen, the full screen chat window, and logged to the logs.

Some - like the manifest - would not make sense to display on screen (way too spammy, and maybe inappropriate as you wouldn't need to go check the hold anymore)

 
Some of what you want will come in the form of ship logs.


Ship logs might answer a lot of this - especially if they can be downloaded, or are displayed via the chat window (and thus logged) I'll hold my judgement on that until we actually have them available, but they may be everything we want.

Of course, I like that by parsing the logs, I can generate data of all battles I was involved in, no matter who was CO at the time.
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Silvermoon, First Mate, Silver Dragon Trading Company
Silverstar, Instructor, Puzzle Pirates Academy (retired)
[Nov 7, 2003 8:30:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/chirik    Chirik    yppSilvermoon [Link]  Go to top 
ctate



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Peghead wrote: 
Cool ideas.

But it's not going to happen. The chat log is currently a hack that just outputs the text from the full-screen history. Having it do any more is not going to make the game more fun for 99.9% of the people who play.

Some of what you want will come in the form of ship logs.


I'm really sorry to hear this, Peghead. I frequently wish that the chat log -- even inside the game, never mind the log on disk -- somehow distinguished between /say, /tell, /crew, and /jcrew comments. Being able to go back over a conversation and know who said what to whom is important.
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Pelikan, Gunner of the Adventurer's League
Flying the colours of the Plundered Hearts
[Nov 10, 2003 8:00:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lethal01

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Re: [Request] Improved messages Reply to this Post
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Id' like to add the output of the [insert name for page that tells how good everyone is working on a ship] every leaguepoint to the logfile. That would make for some more cool stats.. I am crazy about stats :)
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Gnarr
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