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Waugaman

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Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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The player base seems to be dropping daily at the moment and I have been hearing of an increasing number of high profile players being banned for numerous reasons, be it botting, RMT or ban evading. I won't name anybody without permission. The RMT factor could be that people are low on cash IRL due to the virus or they are simply trying to cash in before it is too late, who knows.

While I do not agree with botting or RMT, there has to be a better way to handle this situation without outright banning such a large proportion of the player base.

Let's be frank here. Who doesn't know at least one ban evader who is currently playing. We all probably know a lot or may even be ones ourselves (I was banned in 2005 for something my brother did and I never got that account unbanned so technically I am ban evading on nancyboy, but I have never done anything wrong in those 14+ years). Whatever is used to prevent new account creation clearly does not work as people return very fast.

The high number of bans tell me one thing, GH can clearly detect and catch this behavior so here is my solution.

1. Stop banning for ban evasion and allow people to remake a new account after lets say 1 week. You may return to the game on a new account 1 week after your ban. Make it clear you can detect botting, RMT and cheating will not be allowed on any level.

2. When an account is banned, lock all items and POE to that account to stop it being recovered.

3. The punishment should be account loss, including all POE and items. However allowing this person to start again fresh could help the player base. If somebody wants to bot and help load a ship, only to get banned a week later, I do not see how that has a negative impact on anybody. Over time I am sure they will give up and play legitimately like the 5% of the current player base does. I still find it very very strange how people who have admitted to botting are then allowed back into the game on their old pirates, which contain botted stats. Where is the logic in that one?

4. It should also be an offense to claim to be a previously banned player to avoid people regaining their old reputation. Example: Hera gets banned, makes a new account and loads an Atlantis with a note "Hera is back".

I am sure this is not a perfect solution and there may be flaws so feel free to pick it apart and offer other solutions. With the current state of the game though, whatever strategy is in place at the moment is not working and they seem to be dropping like flies.

One more thing to note. Please remove the curve... how are we going to attract anyone new when the skill requirement is this high.
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Nancyboy on Hunter
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[Dec 8, 2020 12:17:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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Short answer: no.
Long answer: noooooooooooooooooooo!
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[Dec 8, 2020 12:36:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
RonenOsden

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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Without knowing anything about OP.

This reads like a ban-plea trying not to be a ban-plea.

Also, no? I recieved a ban many many years ago, served my time and came back. I have zero sympathy for people who cannot do the same by evading.

I will admit that with the stories I have heard of players being un-justly banned, there should be some kind of over-sight or something involved. As for stories I have heard of ban-pleas resulting in a simple copy-pasted response, as if the plea wasnt even read. (Yes there are so few devs/OMs left, how about we introduce some kind of community group that assists with bans/ban-pleas?)
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[Dec 8, 2020 12:57:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.twitch.tv/RonenOsden [Link]  Go to top 
Waugaman

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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I am nancyboy on emerald. I am not banned so this is not a ban plea as you say. This is nothing to do with me. I am just putting my views out on what I think should be implemented as we move forward.

I just think the game is dying too fast and this would be a positive move in my eyes. Sure there are negatives but I think if you understood what was happening behind the scenes you would understand that the negatives are very active already and arguably the negatives would be reduced as it may push some illegitimate players to play legitimately. It is all speculation of course.

Also if you are going to comment, at least put forward a suggestion like ^. Saying no does not help anyone.

The main problem is that this game is a very social game and when somebody gets banned they may feel like they have lost a lot more than just their pirate. It is worth more to them to just ban evade and take the risks to hold onto their friendship group. I see it happen first hand all the time. You only have to be in a few flags discords to understand what really goes on.
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Nancyboy on Hunter
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Waugaman at Dec 8, 2020 4:38:51 PM]
[Dec 8, 2020 1:07:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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Also if you are going to comment, at least put forward a suggestion like ^. Saying no does not help anyone.

It's been brought up so many times that the topic has been exhausted. They've already become WAY more lenient since the Obsidian release.
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[Dec 8, 2020 3:29:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Waugaman

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I just do not get that view point. Why would you even think about removing a ban for someone who has cheated the game. The policy should be, you can come back as much as you want on a new account but we will always remove you if you cheat and you will lose everything (forever).

The fact that people can bot and then come back after x amount of years is still wrong. They should be allowed back but only on a new account. The current system is also very uneven and probably ends in people being treated differently to others as ultimately there is a human making the decision.

I know people who break this game. They write bots, they use mods and they manipulate the client. They would return and play clean but until they get the go ahead that they can do that, they will continue to cause disruption. This does not benefit the game. Look at what happened the other month... I doubt that would have happened had the OM's not made certain people so angry and determined to get pay back.

Ban evasion does not stop people playing this game. We should be looking to find out why people cheat so much in the game and fix the issues at the source rather than having a block all bad people attitude. The % of players banned in this game has to be higher than any other game out there.

We all know why people bot. The problem was never dealt with and now it is normal for an Atlantis run to last 3, even 4 hours. Nobody should be expected to play the same puzzling for the game. Bots have normalised game play that is not healthy for anybody.

If you just outright say no this is a bad idea you are blind to the problem. You have to understand what goes on in this game to know the action that needs to be taken. These people who want to play clean are playing dirty because they can't play clean. Of course there are people who will always cheat and they will continue to get banned.
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Nancyboy on Hunter
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[Dec 8, 2020 4:37:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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Nancyboy wrote: 
These people who want to play clean are playing dirty because they can't play clean.
What.
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Ryuken on Emerald.
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[Dec 8, 2020 5:41:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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People always come up with this idea of amnesty and they always fail to address the elephant in the room. The fact that if you invite banned players to come back on, they will cause more havoc in the vein of things they were banned for, which always affects other players: scamming, spamming, harrassment, RMTs, generalized barrelstopperism. This will cause a tsunami of GOOD PLAYERS to leave the game.

We who are good players stayed on the game for a good long time because we could trust the OMs to handle disciplinary issues. If we were forced to play with barrelstoppers and the barrelstoppers weren't shown the door, we would go find something else to do instead.

So yes, if you really want to accelerate the mass exodus from this game, please do invite banned players back to play again. Because the trickling creek will become a whitewater rapid flood.
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[Dec 8, 2020 7:00:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
Quitex

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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I just think the game is dying too fast and this would be a positive move in my eyes.


You need a new prescription.
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[Dec 8, 2020 9:08:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
b0nde00

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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I think I understand the point OP is trying to make.

Take a step back and look at how the human mind works. Lets take drugs for example. Drugs are addictive and so are games. You cannot just remove a drug addict from drugs and expect them to be ok with that and that is not how this situation is dealt with in most countries. People are slowly taken off the drugs and given help as the other option is to essentially watch turn them into monsters who will go to any length to get their fix. In the long run this is more resource intensive and that is very well understood. This is essentially what ban evasion promotes but in a virtual environment.

Let's just imagine we are did something bad like used crystal bilge and got banned for botting and our ban plea was denied. Due to our addiction we have to come back at any cost. We find out it is easy to untaint our PC and start playing again, this time without any bots as we don't want to get banned again. A few years later we get banned for ban evasion and that is 2 years work down the drain. This happens a few times and eventually it is going to take a toll on that person, they will start to hate the people who are blocking them and will go to any lengths to get pay back.

The game is full of cheaters, be it botters, ban evaders, hackers or people just trolling 24/7 (pugwash). The untainting system does not stop a single one of these players from returning back into the game, however the continuous bans most likely promote the reckless behaviour we are all seeing as they have nothing to lose. I would rather these people were playing on an account the OM's know about rather than them hiding and causing all sorts of damage.

There are always going to be people who will use bots, cheat and cause problems no matter what you do and no action is going to stop that. Forgiving the past and allowing people a second chance might, just might cause a few of those rouge people to put down the bots and take up that chance to play legitimately.

It is very easy as a legitimate player like myself to turn around and say no, no way would I let anybody back and they are probably the same people who would lock everyone in prison for life for committing a crime. Blocking a problem out does not solve it.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by b0nde00 at Dec 10, 2020 8:32:26 AM]
[Dec 10, 2020 8:29:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nate3990

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I feel like the game should ban PIRATES/ACCOUNTS, not people - like most other games. "Ban Evading" doesn't make much sense, especially when I hear of stories about people who got banned nearly a decade ago and still aren't able to play.

It would probably be a good idea to allow banned players to make a new account to start fresh - if they break the rules, they can get banned again. The new players would undoubtedly contribute at least some profit to GH from doubloon sales, etc.

I feel it's a deterrent enough to lose your main pirate and all the stats/reputation/items to discourage further rule breaking once caught.
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Spinnakerr on Emerald | Natetegreat on Cerulean
Originally started on Cobalt, now playing Emerald! Returned to the game October 2020.
[Dec 10, 2020 9:16:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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y u wanna waste OM's time with double- and triple-bannination when they're already busy banning ban evaders? There is a banpleading process and players have successfully been unbanned, and they do it by convincing the OMs that they won't have to ban the dude yet again because he's not going to cause the same trouble as before.

I don't know about many other games, but banning the player, not merely the account, is the only logical way to do it. If your policy is to ban accounts, and players may create fresh accounts with impunity after being banned, then why ban at all, really?

And yeah, what the above posts amount to is: why ban at all, really? If banned players can just come back, then why should an OM ban in the first place? Just let them run amok? Who cares, anyway?
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[Dec 12, 2020 6:36:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
nate3990

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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OMs wouldn't be busy trying to play Sherlock Holmes and sleuth around to find sneaky ban evaders if they chose to ban accounts instead of people. It wouldn't be double the work - in fact, they might actually do a better job of banning botters and whatever other offenses are the most common if they focused less on trying to ban people with new accounts who haven't broken the rules but were banned once upon a time years ago.
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Spinnakerr on Emerald | Natetegreat on Cerulean
Originally started on Cobalt, now playing Emerald! Returned to the game October 2020.
[Dec 12, 2020 11:59:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
thegoodstuff



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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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And yeah, what the above posts amount to is: why ban at all, really? If banned players can just come back, then why should an OM ban in the first place? Just let them run amok? Who cares, anyway?


Do you actual read what people say or just write some trolling response with no evidence to back it up? Everything you have said shows just how out of touch you are with the current state of the game.

The point is, that banning the account, including all pirates and freezing all their possessions is enough to stop the majority of people from cheating again, especially with regards to botting. Nobody has ever said you should not ban for cheating. In fact the current policy of bot till you get caught and then say sorry enough times and you can have all your botted stats back is a joke. There should be no return for a pirate that obtained POE or states in an unfair way.

The problem with ban evasion is that people lose that love feeling for their pirate and their stats because they know its just a matter of time. A change in policy would probably change a few peoples minds and cause them to put down the bots, knowing they can play without fear and their efforts won't be wasted.

There are also plenty of instances were one member of a household has been banned and that has caused the entire family to get banned. You cannot prove who is behind which account which is why the current policy is not fair and will have 100% wrongly banned people in the past.

At the moment we have a situation were the OM's spend most of their time trying to trace cheaters because the cheaters have had to put so much effort into hiding. The battle has been going on for 10+ years and it is very clear who is winning.
[Dec 13, 2020 4:24:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nate3990

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The point is, that banning the account, including all pirates and freezing all their possessions is enough to stop the majority of people from cheating again, especially with regards to botting. Nobody has ever said you should not ban for cheating. In fact the current policy of bot till you get caught and then say sorry enough times and you can have all your botted stats back is a joke. There should be no return for a pirate that obtained POE or states in an unfair way.


100% this. I actually didn't know people could just apologize and get reinstated with all their stats and poe after getting banned if their appeal is accepted.

People who get banned for botting should have their botted stats reset to novice/able or even better yet, current experience/able if they are allowed to play on the same pirate again.

If someone breaks the rules, that pirate should be gone forever including all the items/poe and what not. HOWEVER I feel that they should be given the opportunity to start fresh with a second chance. Losing everything they've worked for while cheating is enough of a deterrent for further cheating in my opinion.

If they still cheat with the second chance, then MAYBE they could be permanently banned (the person/IP/whatever).
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Spinnakerr on Emerald | Natetegreat on Cerulean
Originally started on Cobalt, now playing Emerald! Returned to the game October 2020.
[Dec 13, 2020 1:39:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Forgive and forget? Is it time to change? Reply to this Post
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thegoodstuff wrote: 
Everything you have said shows just how out of touch you are with the current state of the game.

The point is, that banning the account, including all pirates and freezing all their possessions is enough to stop the majority of people from cheating again, especially with regards to botting.
What. That's kinda hypocritical, saying he's out of touch then making a silly comment like this.

Greenie pirates are created every week, raised to double Narrow, bot-cading for Poe and RMT-ed away. Not to mention the hundreds of bilge-rig leet alts you see on SMH runs.

In view of that, banning people was probably the best solution they could come up with. Needless to say it hasn't been good enough, but going more lenient sounds wrong.
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[Dec 13, 2020 5:19:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nate3990

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What. That's kinda hypocritical, saying he's out of touch then making a silly comment like this.

Greenie pirates are created every week, raised to double Narrow, bot-cading for Poe and RMT-ed away. Not to mention the hundreds of bilge-rig leet alts you see on SMH runs.

In view of that, banning people was probably the best solution they could come up with. Needless to say it hasn't been good enough, but going more lenient sounds wrong.


This is a good point; I guess I was mostly thinking of an established pirates losing their main account after botting and being allowed to restart a new account.

The whole greenie alt blockade botting and SMH botting is definitely a huge problem but it doesn't appear that GH has the resources or expertise to deal with the problem at this time. Those people should 100% be banned from all future accounts as well.
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Spinnakerr on Emerald | Natetegreat on Cerulean
Originally started on Cobalt, now playing Emerald! Returned to the game October 2020.
[Dec 13, 2020 9:24:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fransil

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Everything so far but the title of this post seems to be a futile discussion, that too in the wrong direction.
 
Forgive and forget? Is it time to change?

Forgive and forget the game itself. That will solve the problem, the final problem.
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[Dec 14, 2020 1:21:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Captpogchamp



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The game is full of cheaters, be it botters, ban evaders, hackers or people just trolling 24/7 (pugwash).



[Dec 18, 2020 4:09:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottays

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Very difficult to change the game at this stage due to no communication from dev(s). But Emerald is rapidly declining as I have no incentive of moving there. But the botting/RMT/scammers etc on Emerald will never go away and if they did then the ocean would die even faster.
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[Dec 18, 2020 2:42:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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