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patgangster

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Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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With the recent patch ("The maximum number of Greedies that spawn has been adjusted so that it will not exceed the number of human players on board the vessel."), the concept of "greedy bashes" has been completely destroyed. While everyone will agree that the payout of these low-person grand frigate trips was way out of line compared to anything else in the game, it was an activity many pirates enjoyed.

I believe it can be balanced, with a partial revert and perhaps other changes. Here are my suggestions:

  • Partially revert the fix to greedy brigands, and make it a maximum of 3, 4 or 5 per pirate. From my estimations in profit, at 3 a succesful bash will be "worth doing", while 5 will keep good profit without being insanely unbalanced.
  • Adjust the way greedy trinkets are distributed slightly, to prevent the now-common scenario where the players on the boat all run out of "pillage points" which resulted in a very even division of trinkets even for those who only stayed for one battle, to allow players to join/leave throughout the run without worrying about this unintended side effect of the mechanic.

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[Dec 1, 2020 9:32:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pegesian



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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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Everyone agrees that greedy bashing was way too lucrative as it was, however as Pat's post states - the recent change completely destroyed the concept of it.

I know a lot of pirates actually enjoyed bashing, and didn't just do it for the PoE.

Both of the changes suggested by Pat would help make it a viable method to both enjoy the game and make decent PoE.

Another change that might help is:
Currently when you click on View Vessel-owner's Treasure - Lavish lockers come up as an option - but it's impossible to actually get them. There's a few people that do public Greedy runs on grand frigates, even paying bonuses, so if VO's were implemented, said runs could be actually viable for making Poe and not only for having fun.
[Dec 1, 2020 10:18:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ypppedro

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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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+1 to everything mentioned above
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[Dec 1, 2020 10:35:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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No, you're just going to get people bring two to three alts onboard to up the count back to normal numbers. This could be avoided by restricting ships in a similar fashion to tournaments, but noone wants this.

ETA: If you restricted greedy spawns per computer, rather than pirate, so that it had no effect on other activities in game, I'd be behind raising it to 3, probably no higher though. Cheaters could still use virtual machines to get around it, but that's likely going to be so few that I don't think it's a major worry.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Jcmorgan6 at Dec 2, 2020 8:44:56 AM]
[Dec 1, 2020 10:58:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottays

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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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I agree with JC because if you made limit if 5. People will do WHATEVER it takes to get around it and just use alts to spawn loads. I'd only vote for a max of 2 or 3 nothing higher.
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[Dec 1, 2020 12:17:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Croceye

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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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I liked to go out bashing now and then, yes you could say I was one to abuse it? doing it Solo, however I did like to just host a normal pilly for crewbies to hop on and sometimes job the people I knew to go out and have some fun.

Now to what I read in there patch notes, I didn't really look to host a whole lot already but now its just the thought of, im not even going to do anything other than poker to earn actual poe, maybe blockading too.

I had thought it was a guarantee that per pirate on your ship, equals to 1 greedy but still chance based lol?
I don't get a lot of pirates on my ships when I pilly in the first place cause I don't like jobbing those who stay for one battle then jump off for even greedy share, but as an example I have 3-4 on board and I could still only spawn 2 greedies? Quite poor numbers wouldn't you think?

In my opinion if you want to keep this change the way its now set, might as well just take it away all together, its pointless. Did you ramp up the chances of getting more poe in purses you turn in? doubt it. probably pilly my butt off for one purse then once opened get 6k...

Agreeing with those who said about ramping it up to 2-3 greedy chances per pirate seems fair to me, sure you could bring alts on board to abuse it again, but that's just what happens in Puzzle pirates, people look for ways to earn decent amounts of poe for there time spent on the game, sure its supposed to be a grind but I just find it being far too much of one now.
[Dec 1, 2020 4:41:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
vocatus



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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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I see people still using alts to bring up the numbers of the greedies today, I think the proposed changes are fine and won't make so much of a difference.

+1 from me
[Dec 1, 2020 9:36:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mari_

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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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What seems to have been forgotten is greedies along with additional swabbies were added to the game to get people off the docks (like me), off poker tables and back to do something the games was intended for - on a ship.

The re-balance of 1:1 ratio has nerfed it too much, although I understand it needed to be tweaked much more could be done like Pat says above to make it both fairer and still enjoyable for the vast number of people in this game that actually do this.

You added extra greedies for use of green names to encourage newer players to go along and not need stats on runs (lets forget about your ongoing issues with botters right now) This alone has now also lost that incentive for people running ships to have these aboard (less likely to get greedy strikes if they're genuinely new and don't understand game mechanics yet.

I personally I think the ratio should have a ramp, but should have a maximum it can hit. I also 100% agree with what people have said from day 1 - sort the division out so it splits based on time aboard and battles, not an even division across everyone.

With all the troubles the game has been through over the last few months, here's to hoping you do listen to your long-term player base here and what we are asking/telling you about your latest tweak to gameplay.
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[Dec 2, 2020 2:12:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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Devil's advocate post incoming.

Bashing was far too lucrative and we know it. And yes the playerbase is intelligent/cunning enough that there's no middleground. Either allow it to be abused to riches, or nerfed to dust. I think they picked the better option.

Imbalanced PoE fountain just translates to inflation. You can only blockade that much 2 days a week, and even then you can't sink as many ships compared to how much you can generate from bashing everyday. SMHs sinks don't come close to be worth considering.

It's probably better for new players this way (if they still exist) since starting a fresh pirate and requiring 100k for a badge sounds horrible. Especially since bashes are commonly restricted among inner cliques, or public ones which ask for Black Diamond Rumbler / Dnav, it's a matter of time before inflation brings us there. Meridian dub prices anyone?

Perhaps treat it like the dynamic spawn concept. There's too much PoE and it's time to tone it down. One day it may return. At the end fo the day, it was meant to add colour (heh) to regular pillages, not become a thing of its own.
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Ryuken on Emerald.
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[Dec 2, 2020 8:10:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Vanleigh



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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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Agreed, completely.

Bashes were absolutely broken, but the ability to bash should be treated as any other in-game skill. There should be a reward to being able to do it properly, and the reward should be balanced enough to justify the rewards of every other activity. As they were, if you were good enough at bashing the only reason left to do anything else in the game was for fun, which is... really not fair to the very skilled people trying to organize larger runs.

As for myself, I love bashing. It's a relaxing thing to do with a couple friends, without stressing over sink risks, map scouting, securing jobbers, overcrowding boards, or honestly, the embarrassment of making bad mistakes in public. And frankly I'm not that good at it, my average battle when soloing yields 3-5 LLs, and at the rate I get battles (and speed at which i go through them) that's about 100-200k for anywhere from two to four hours.

That's probably too much for my skill level, which implies that more competent people would get a lot more. But as things stand after this last patch I have no reason to take a frigate out when I'd likely be bleeding money on stock if I'm not even guaranteed that single greedy per person on a solo ship.

So in conclusion I agree that reverting to more greedies per person while still retaining a cap is probably a better solution.
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[Dec 2, 2020 9:04:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pegesian



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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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Devil's advocate post incoming.
You can only blockade that much 2 days a week, and even then you can't sink as many ships compared to how much you can generate from bashing everyday. SMHs sinks don't come close to be worth considering.


I think you're forgetting that the poe you spend on ships comes nowhere close to jobber pay. 1 round with 2 frigates costs a flag 4m in just jobber pay, unless you buy dubs or acquire your poes other ways, theres no way any flag can sustain that. Of course since buying dubs is a part of the game, theres no way you could contest Admiral without it, but right now I feel like you can't even contest the small islands without buying dubs.
[Dec 2, 2020 9:13:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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Pegesian wrote: 
I think you're forgetting that the poe you spend on ships comes nowhere close to jobber pay. 1 round with 2 frigates costs a flag 4m in just jobber pay, unless you buy dubs or acquire your poes other ways, theres no way any flag can sustain that. Of course since buying dubs is a part of the game, theres no way you could contest Admiral without it, but right now I feel like you can't even contest the small islands without buying dubs.


Irrelevant. Jobber pay is PoE distribution, not a PoE sink. Next.
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[Dec 2, 2020 9:31:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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Ships sinking and having to be rebuilt is also only a very minor PoE sink (of the sales tax, which is like 10% of the cost of the stuff). It's a much larger doubloon sink.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by patgangster at Dec 2, 2020 10:10:07 AM]
[Dec 2, 2020 10:09:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pegesian



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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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Pegesian wrote: 
I think you're forgetting that the poe you spend on ships comes nowhere close to jobber pay. 1 round with 2 frigates costs a flag 4m in just jobber pay, unless you buy dubs or acquire your poes other ways, theres no way any flag can sustain that. Of course since buying dubs is a part of the game, theres no way you could contest Admiral without it, but right now I feel like you can't even contest the small islands without buying dubs.


Irrelevant. Jobber pay is PoE distribution, not a PoE sink. Next.


I was talking about a person being able to cade, not about the game economic, theres familiars literally worth 250m poe, even with bashing thats 2500 hours of gameplay.

The thread is about greedy mechanics, not poe sinks.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Pegesian at Dec 2, 2020 10:37:34 AM]
[Dec 2, 2020 10:36:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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Pegesian wrote: 
I was talking about a person being able to cade, not about the game economic, theres familiars literally worth 250m poe, even with bashing thats 2500 hours of gameplay.

The thread is about greedy mechanics, not poe sinks.
I mentioned cade ship sinking as a PoE sink effect to contrast greedybashing's ridiculous PoE fountain effect. If you're talking about a person being able to cade then that's a different point from what I was getting at. Irrelevant to quote me on, and even more detached from the topic of greedy mechanics.

patgangster wrote: 
Ships sinking and having to be rebuilt is also only a very minor PoE sink (of the sales tax, which is like 10% of the cost of the stuff). It's a much larger doubloon sink.
If it's a small PoE sink then that's even worse hmm. That just makes the previous greedybashing far more imbalanced.
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Ryuken on Emerald.
I made a Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.

Offering docktart-citadel front row seats since Aug2020 :D
[Dec 2, 2020 5:17:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sharon7

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Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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  • Partially revert the fix to greedy brigands, and make it a maximum of 3, 4 or 5 per pirate. From my estimations in profit, at 3 a successful bash will be "worth doing", while 5 will keep good profit without being insanely unbalanced.


  • As a regular basher, I agree with Pat's suggestions.
    I personally feel 3 greedies per pirate is a good number, we just got to stay out @ sea longer.
    My goal of bashing is a little different from others though ie. lobby collection > p0e
    But it's nice to make a small profit after restocking, so 3 per pirate after 10 battles will reach that goal.
    To overcome the recent nerf, one will have to multi client to increase the LLs.
    It's not difficult, just need to make sure the clients don't idle out before the fray starts.
    You can probably solo 8 to 10 clients with max damage and still win the frays.
    The question is: How many multi clients can you open until the OMs start sending you random tells to log them off?

    Edit:
    Bashing also helped the IMs and Distilleries to make p0e.
    So if bashing is now dead, their businesses will too :(
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    [Edit 1 times, last edit by sharon7 at Dec 2, 2020 7:28:24 PM]
    [Dec 2, 2020 7:23:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Markus1

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    Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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    So nice of them to sneak this in Thankgiving week....

    This totally kills pillaging for me. Yeah I took a Grand Frig out, but I'd job anyone and I wouldn't care if they got six lockers, or just one. What mattered was having fun, and bashing greedies is a LOT of fun.

    So people have taken it extremes (as they're apt to do) . I didn't. On an average night (maybe 5-6 battles tops) jobbers would get 5-6 trinkets each (again, some were really good at it, some not so much because I'll job anyone). On a good night where I stayed out longer they might get around 10 trinkets each. Heck after restock I'd often lose PoE (not counting trinket turn-ins) -- all of which probably sounds pitiful to the "elite greedie bashers", but you know what, I don't care -- I was having fun, the people i was with were having fun, and that's what matters. Getting people out and about and doing things is what keeps this game alive, this kills that.

    There needs to be some sort of compromise because at one greedy per pirate per battle, the margin of error drops to zero. In the past I'd be "ok", if not happy with an average of just one locker per pirate per battle (again -- I job anyone), which theoretically is no different than what we get now with the update, but with a hard cap of one you MUST get them all -- just to match my own (again probably pitiful in comparison to some) low average. Whereas before I'd see 20-25 greedies for 8-9 pirates (on Cerullian too i might add) and we might get 12-16 lockers per battle.

    Even a hard cap of two greedies per pirate, would be preferable to one. With a cap of two you have a margin of error that insures that most average players can still maintain an average of one trinket per pirate per battle. With a hard cap of one you are virtually guaranteeing that anyone other than an "elite" crew will get less than that (likely far less). Personally i think a hard cap of three might be best. Acceptable margin of error for sub-elite crews while still giving a target that makes it worthwhile for elites.

    Lastly let's not forget why greedies were implemented in the first place -- to get people pillaging again, and jobbing people (not just greenies), because pillaging, as the primary free-to-play activity is the life-blood of this game. Nerfing greedies this harshly tips pillaging back into the "more work than fun" that it was before greedies were put into the game. Before greedies i was down to pillaging a couple times a year(unless the monthly seal required it), lately it's been a couple times a week.


    TL:DR version:

    It should be capped at two or three (preferably three) greedies per pirate per battle as that would maintain the fun of "greedy bashing" while keeping people from taking it to extremes.
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    [Dec 2, 2020 10:57:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Willepi

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    Re: Suggestion: Further changes to greedies Reply to this Post
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    Unpopular opinion inbound.

    Greedy bashes were designed, because there were hardly any pillages going on (especially at certain times of the day) and if there were, people would only job say respected+ stations.

    The idea of LL were to encourage a) more pillaging so greenies have some hope of you know doing something to not eternally be a poor statless greenie, and to offer the navver some incentive to offset the "less skilled jobbers".

    The idea wasn't the gamebreaking abuse of the combination of 100% station swabbies on massive ships and literally doing about jack all on the largest ship to get the best payout in the game - while essentially barely playing the game.

    I for one invite the nerf, sure maybe allow 2 greedies per pirate. INSTEAD please ramp up CI and HS payment to actually match lantis and (multiclient) KH and the insane inflation. Remember when you got a lot of PoE from a graveyard except now it's not a lot and stock is more expensive.

    OR as suggested in other threads, add some LL for TH in Flotillas, which are probably the most under represented voyage type atm. and very hard to load.

    Don't get me wrong. I bashed, I won 4 lonsters in November alone, but contrast that to the two gators and 4 karkinos I've won from all the other very numerous SMH runs I've both run as VO and jobber in the past 8 or so years. Broken mechanic.
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    [Edit 1 times, last edit by Willepi at Dec 4, 2020 4:23:50 AM]
    [Dec 4, 2020 4:19:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Rick9109

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    Note: moved this from another thread, seems more appropriate here.

    First off, I say this as someone who does not enjoy greedy hunting and only does it when I can't get enough people to do something more resembling classic pillaging.

    I ultimately don't think this change is compatible with the change that nerfed the ability to use smaller ships.

    Now that it is very difficult to use small ships, if there are only four people online who are interested in pillaging, you really can't take them all out in a sloop and win enough money to make it worth your time (not to mention it takes much more skill to win fights in a sloop against much bigger ships, especially with only four humans).

    Greedy hunting, while in my opinion, is way less fun, it at least was a way to get out to sea and make money with the people who were interested in going out there.

    Now you're in a situation where there still isn't much of a reason with few pirates to take out a small ship (unless you like to lose or are really good and don't care about making P.O.E.), and additionally there's no way to make a decent wage while going out on a large ship. This is a big blow to the sub ocean where it is already difficult to get people out, and the playtime of the people who do play is limited.

    I understand people abused this, but I think a change that curtails abuse but stops legitimate play is not good.

    Maybe instead track the average number of greedies faced a month. Once a person starts to pass that average, then limit their greedy spawn. Track it across account to limit alts, maybe throw limits on accounts that have never spent money on the game.
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    patgangster

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    This is definitely worth thinking about; not many people here consider the less active oceans (because we don't play on them). I've had some sub-playing friends talk to me about this too, how in their limited playerbase it was nice to have at least one reasonable way to make money, and now that's pretty much gone too.

     
    Track it across account to limit alts, maybe throw limits on accounts that have never spent money on the game.


    I was thinking about it recently, and maybe I'd even kick it up a notch even further to stop/slow down alting: maybe it's a good idea treat alts of a pirate as the same pirate. Log onto three pirates for the same greedy bash? Only get greedies for one, only get paid on one. Put two pirates on a HS because you're greedy? Nah, my guy, you're only gonna get paid once.

    Technology for this is already here, in being unable to play rated games, join tournaments or join poker tables with yourself.
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    Vanleigh



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    Track it across account to limit alts, maybe throw limits on accounts that have never spent money on the game.


    I was thinking about it recently, and maybe I'd even kick it up a notch even further to stop/slow down alting: maybe it's a good idea treat alts of a pirate as the same pirate. Log onto three pirates for the same greedy bash? Only get greedies for one, only get paid on one. Put two pirates on a HS because you're greedy? Nah, my guy, you're only gonna get paid once.


    Do we really need a technical solution to this? At some point, if someone is knowingly spamming alts to subvert a game mechanic, couldn't the definition of alt abuse be expanded to include this?

    I wonder how much of this problem (that is, people abusing greedy bashes) could have been effectively avoided by simply sending an OM warning asking for players not to have alts with them, without even needing to ban anybody or touch a line of code.
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