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Luxory

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I think skilled swabbies should be a thing, but I don't think you should ever have more swabbies on the ship that players. If you're going to have skilled swabbies in such a high paying adventure, my personal opinion is at least 50% should be players.
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Luxory on Obsidian.
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[Dec 5, 2020 3:10:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottays

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Like you could get away with it in HS since the boarders are easy. But regarding Atlantis would be a much higher chance in sinking if you don't have a group of skilled SFers but the swabbies should be able to fray at least. But I 100% agree it needs to be a thing and something that needs LOTS of testing before being released on major oceans to explore every single avenue on to make it balanced and fair for everything. It can also be a potential poe sink if you want it to or decrease pay by lots. I also think by talking to lots of people that this would highly benefit the less active oceans rather than benefiting Emerald as its the only Ocean that can load these voyages on a daily basis (except Friglantis). So swabbie caps I believe now should be low for now and if people are making loads of profit then decrease the pay again and again until it is balanced where its still worth doing it again.
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Trophy Hunter - Scottys on Meridian.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Scottays at Dec 5, 2020 4:19:22 PM]
[Dec 5, 2020 4:16:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ashboyd



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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Or make only so many skilled swabbies available to each ocean. I'm not great with numbers, but base it on how many players are online. More real players, less swabbies available. 7 players online, abundance of swabbies. That way you cut out the cheating with the war brigs full of swabbies coming into maps and griefing.

I disagree with earlier points (didn't read all of the first 4 pages though) about replacing skilled swabbies with unskilled should someone leave a ship while inside of a map. There are flags that would have their crews get on a SMH, enter into the map, then bail out, leaving the ship with few real players and a bunch of useless bots.

I definitely think they should get some of the profits, maybe not 50%, but base it on how many bots are onboard at the end. Also, making it so that they can rejob during breaks would benefit against the possibility of being abandoned, not having enough backup swabbies, and encourage people to jump on ships already in the map. Like a pilly, you make less if you're on for less time, same split mechanics at the end.

I would definitely like to see them available for pillies, it would greatly benefit learning how to bnav while not losing everything you have in the process. They should definitely be able to group fight (I agree not in 1v1) a little better than they are now, especially when it comes to teaming and jumping all over. But again, if you limit the number of swabbies available to the ocean, perhaps make them only available to smaller ship pillies, to conserve some of them for the SMH. They don't have to haul LLs, either, leave the greedy bashing to real players, thus incentivizing jobbing for them as well.

You don't have to play alone, but if I sit on a ship for 3 hours and never get to go in, it definitely would discourage me if I was a newer player.
[Dec 5, 2020 6:29:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scribone



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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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In my opinion this idea beats the whole purpose of puzzle pirates and playing together with friends. I don't wanna be in a HS on a xebec with friends and have to deal with 3-4 Xebecs entering and screwing my run. I don't think that would be fun for anyone and a waste of time for the real jobbers.

If you are having issues loading a SMH and really want to Bnav one... What could be done is a new option in the mission section where u can go shoot some monsters for fun ( And this will have to be a totally random generated map where only you can enter it )

Friglantises can be loaded this days, but with the lockdowns slowly getting lifted everywhere, The game is probably gonna go back to its usual 200-300 Pirates at peak time where it would be impossible to load WFs again.

An idea that i have to fix the issue i mentioned above is that the amount of pirates needed to man a ship could be decreased by a certain percentage, For example we could change a WF so that it would hold 45 instead of 75... a Xebec from 45 to 30 maybe..? Wbs to 18 etc... I really think that would work out well... We would have less waiting time on loading and we can have multiple ships in SMHs and even if the population decreases over time we can still have some nice SMHs going on :)

I have seen some dual SMHs and flotillas lately, which i think we will see more often if this happens since it would take less people to fill a ship... Which to me sounds like alot of fun and i am sure it can get some old players interested again in the game and the new bnavers would have a chance to get into the SMH scene.

And who knows maybe that would get some people to stop whining about overjobbing? :P

I know this idea is not an easy one to implement and get into that game, but i truly believe if this can actually be focused on by the new developer it can really help the game.

In my opinion it is a reasonable fix because of how the population decreased over the years, ships were designed for a larger population and with the population going down these days i think its only fair to decrease the number of pirates required for each ship... Just an idea.

If there is enough interest on this, please let me know and i could make a thread on the idea :) if not...well then thanks for taking the time to read what i just wrote :D

Really glad to see people are still willing to improve the game, and with the new developer here... who knows.. maybe some hope for the game?
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Scrib on Emerald ocean
[Dec 5, 2020 7:51:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottays

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Or make only so many skilled swabbies available to each ocean. I'm not great with numbers, but base it on how many players are online. More real players, less swabbies available. 7 players online, abundance of swabbies. That way you cut out the cheating with the war brigs full of swabbies coming into maps and griefing.


I think less populated oceans should have the same cap to Emerald regarding Skilled swabbies. Plus even if you did have it strictly under amount of actual players then this update would be pointless so should be accessable for all oceans not just Emerald even though Emerald really needs a cap of skilled swabbies.

 
I definitely think they should get some of the profits, maybe not 50%, but base it on how many bots are onboard at the end. Also, making it so that they can rejob during breaks would benefit against the possibility of being abandoned, not having enough backup swabbies, and encourage people to jump on ships already in the map. Like a pilly, you make less if you're on for less time, same split mechanics at the end.


Yeah I've stated that it should be the higher percentage of swabbies you have the less percentage the actual pirates get, vice versa.

 
I would definitely like to see them available for pillies, it would greatly benefit learning how to bnav while not losing everything you have in the process. They should definitely be able to group fight (I agree not in 1v1) a little better than they are now, especially when it comes to teaming and jumping all over. But again, if you limit the number of swabbies available to the ocean, perhaps make them only available to smaller ship pillies, to conserve some of them for the SMH. They don't have to haul LLs, either, leave the greedy bashing to real players, thus incentivizing jobbing for them as well.


This I disagree as there already is a battle with brigands mission and you have the ability to pillage any ship you want so I don't see them needing to be upgraded except for SMHs, flotillas.

 
Scrib ------> In my opinion this idea beats the whole purpose of puzzle pirates and playing together with friends. I don't wanna be in a HS on a xebec with friends and have to deal with 3-4 Xebecs entering and screwing my run. I don't think that would be fun for anyone and a waste of time for the real jobbers.

If you are having issues loading a SMH and really want to Bnav one... What could be done is a new option in the mission section where u can go shoot some monsters for fun ( And this will have to be a totally random generated map where only you can enter it )


Thats why a cap is being discussed on how many you should have inside each SMH thinking around 75-100 for HS or less. But I 100% like the idea of a mission to sink monsters for fun as long as trophies are activated but should be a thing anyway. Big point I want to add (edit) is if you have actual players aboard your ship you should have #1 priority over a skilled swabbies ship where if you have someone entering with a full ship then a ship with skilled swabbies has a reboot timer to exit or they lose all their loot.

 
Friglantises can be loaded this days, but with the lockdowns slowly getting lifted everywhere, The game is probably gonna go back to its usual 200-300 Pirates at peak time where it would be impossible to load WFs again.

An idea that i have to fix the issue i mentioned above is that the amount of pirates needed to man a ship could be decreased by a certain percentage, For example we could change a WF so that it would hold 45 instead of 75... a Xebec from 45 to 30 maybe..? Wbs to 18 etc... I really think that would work out well... We would have less waiting time on loading and we can have multiple ships in SMHs and even if the population decreases over time we can still have some nice SMHs going on :)


I really like this idea, this would definitely help loading times especially after lockdowns I don't see the population going any higher.

 
I have seen some dual SMHs and flotillas lately, which i think we will see more often if this happens since it would take less people to fill a ship... Which to me sounds like alot of fun and i am sure it can get some old players interested again in the game and the new bnavers would have a chance to get into the SMH scene.

And who knows maybe that would get some people to stop whining about overjobbing? :P


Hope so its already enough of a struggle it is trying to load them I couldn't get past 10 when I tried lmao. But reputation always helps and the size of your crew. But very good ideas mr Scrib.

(Edit Just to clear things up for the thread)

Skilled Swabbies on how they should be introduced and balanced for others that want to load a full ship with actual pirates so theres no ruining other runs.

So Scrib/JC have made some excellent points that are the following:

People can just enter 20 alt ships and take advantage of current spawns in those voyages?
Downsizing ships?
What if I have gathered my loot and on my way back to safe zone someone PvPs me inside and sinks me?
Won't this damage the Economy more and potentially ruin people who actually can or load these runs?

So my answer to all those questions are, there should be a new badge for this (same will apply on subscription oceans). This Badge you can call the ''Swabbie Pirate badge'' For example. So by getting this badge you will have the right to use Skilled Swabbies as long as you have this badge. This badge will cost you 500k for the right to use this badge and that option, if you do not have this badge on you then you can't use them. This will prevent people to abuse multiple ships to just enter the SMH/Flotilla with numerous amount of alt ships because if you are aboard the ship anytime and the person with the badge that owns the ship leaves the ship, all skilled swabbies will leave the vessel.

So then ships that have a full ship of pirates for example 45/45 pirates on a HS backwall will have priority over skilled swabbies based ships. The ship with just skilled swabbies and a few pirates cannot enter to prevent the PvP and skilled swabbies can only be jobbed as soon as you enter the SMH but they cannot be used outside of a SMH to prevent people just sitting on LPs to get easy loot. So for example if you have a Skilled Swabbies ship entered on the board then an actual crew has a full ship of pirates and wants to enter then that skilled swabbies ship has to leave the board in 5 minutes (HS, Flotilla), 10 minutes for Atlantis. If they fail to Comply then they will risk loosing their loot just like a Black ship attacks you and leaves you with 5-10 rum.

With the badge costing 500k as well its a potential poe sink and an opportunity to make very little poe back, like you will mostly make a slight profit by the time you've backwalled 30 days potentially. So how profits will work is all the chest divvy will go to the swabbies first then the pirates so the swabbies are paid for their work regarding what I have stated earlier the more players you job the more poe you can potentially earn. The more swabbies you job the less poe you can earn.

Many Pros come out of this. It prevents PvP hassling. Player runs not being stuffed with skilled swabby ships. Poe sink regarding a Pirate Swabbies Badge. Less incentive for people mass alting ships. Atlantis cap of swabbies on a board is 250, HS 150, Flotilla 200 (May alter if ships downsize or its an overkill of ships on the board). I don't really see any negatives out of a Pirate Swabbies Badge 500k.
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Trophy Hunter - Scottys on Meridian.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Scottays at Dec 7, 2020 10:11:10 PM]
[Dec 5, 2020 8:16:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pipandpop5

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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The KISS solution for me is a flat fee per skilled swabbie. Make them a buyable commodity. I would suggest making the price high too. The main thing we're trying to achieve is to enable all aspects of the game to continue to be accessible even as the player base continues to decline, but not at the expense of the multiplayer aspects of the game.

Charging per swabbie discourages alt abuse and individual gains, but will enable the hardcore trophy hunters like Scottys to continue to play all aspects of the game. It will also drastically cut loading times - a bnavver on say, 40/45 on their Xebec can decide to pay for 5 swabbies and enter immediately rather than waiting that extremely frustrating 15 more minutes just to get 5 more pirates on the board.
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[Dec 8, 2020 1:44:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ChMarkov



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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I have just returned after 8 year and it was very noticeable that it took much longer to load a ship than it used to. I like some of the suggestions here and also the suggestions for reducing the ship sizes.

Any update that reduced loading times and increases activity is a positive for me.
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Markov on Emerald
[Dec 8, 2020 5:20:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Perhaps we could just get the basic swabbies not leaving upon entry first. Maybe that will give the ability to front-wall with a few friends on board. You barely get any SCs in zone one so wouldn't have to worry about artificially limiting the ability to get ghostlings / pets, and there probably wouldn't be very much profit to it. You wouldn't interfere with people running legitimate runs as they would be in the top zone.
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Jjc & Jice on Emerald
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[Dec 9, 2020 8:51:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottays

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I would like any update towards making this possible at this point. Even though the basic swabbies will just get blown away by HS/Atlantis boarders unfortunately. But yeah frontwalling as an option is a good start too but I would like them swabbies to be alot stronger in SF where you can 2v1, 4v2, 5v3, 6v4 8v5 and still win with just swabbies. Not just do 10v1 and lose or you'd be only able to frontwall for a very short period of time without being overrun.
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Trophy Hunter - Scottys on Meridian.
[Dec 10, 2020 12:12:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Scottays wrote: 
the swabbies should be able to fray at least
There's no end to this, it'll just get more yucky. Next you'd have a group of 3 friends bringing their skilled-swabbies xebec to a cit and whining that the swabbies can't win, then you'd want elite swabbies. Then we start to autopilot cits because they'd station for us while we laze, and pick up the slack while we straightline.

Scottays wrote: 
The ship with just skilled swabbies and a few pirates cannot enter to prevent the PvP [...] if you have a Skilled Swabbies ship entered on the board then an actual crew has a full ship of pirates and wants to enter then that skilled swabbies ship has to leave the board in 5 minutes (HS, Flotilla), 10 minutes for Atlantis.
This kind of rule-based exclusion to game activity sounds bad overall. If I just wanna snipe some Z1 Scout Trikes for trophies or the fun of it, I shouldn't be kicked out just because someone wants to Z5 backwall. Plus the rule definition would get annoying, does a 44/45 count as a fullship or must you be 45 to eject the other swabbie ships inside? A 44/45 xebec is pretty full too, or should it not enjoy this privilege?

FWIW, if there has to be a change to make lantis/HS more accessible, it's probably far easier to just alter the SMH maps to mimic the IO/VRs. Tweak some config numbers to produce Small, Med, Large, Huge settings. Small Atlantis which only permits small ships, so go bring your Fanchuan and kill trikes with 3 shots and an arch with 10, or whatever the downsized figure will be. Rather than all this convoluted barnacle like a "Swabbie Pirate Badge", full ship eject mechanic, arbitrary "Atlantis cap of swabbies on a board is 250, HS 150, Flotilla 200", and whatever band-aid solution that's yet to come.
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Ryuken on Emerald.
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[Dec 10, 2020 4:31:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottays

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I stated that you could win 8v5 frays for example not win 30v30 with 29 swabbies would be ludicrious if you win then I 100% agree, even though if it happens citadels should be harder to win.

This was mostly brainstorming some ideas on how they can be implemented. Yes you are right 44/45 is a pretty full ship and I know some people enter between 40-44 on a xebec and was stating most people enter the SMh with 45.
I really like the idea that they mimic the IOs/VRs, but with that as well will they have boarders? This seems much more simple thing to do and I like it with trophies activated.

Edited twice due to quotes not doing what I want :(
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Trophy Hunter - Scottys on Meridian.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Scottays at Dec 12, 2020 1:13:11 AM]
[Dec 12, 2020 1:11:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nate3990

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I don't think swabbies should be allowed to fray at all at a skill level greater than the standard swabbie. It would be a nightmare to balance - should the swabbie be as skilled as a Bellator?

I haven't read enough of the suggestions to determine whether or not I support skilled swabbies, but my suggestion IF this were to become a thing is:

For citadels, the number of enemies in the fray should spawn to be the same number as real pirates on board. In other words, a xebec with 5 players and 40 swabbies would spawn a 5 person fray and if won, the loot would be the same loot received if the same 5 players had won the citadel on a sloop.
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Spinnakerr on Emerald | Natetegreat on Cerulean
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[Dec 15, 2020 10:32:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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