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SecretRex



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Battle Navigation Logs Reply to this Post
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After recently creating a battlenav tool, (RexNav), one of the users suggested having it automatically update the score, through a recent chat with PP head OMs they have ruled out using a scanning tool to look for cball hits and rock rams (as this could be deemed as a bot), so therefore the only way of achieving this would be to have PP update either the yohoho.log or the chat log with something along the likes of:

Chat Log - You intercepted Big Carp
yohoho Log - Condemned Tuna shot Big Carp
yohoho Log - Big Carp Hits Rock
yohoho Log - Condemned Tuna Rams Big Carp
Chat Log - Condemned Tuna has grappled Big Carp (could also add the score in this part so all jobbers see it)

The chat Log part already exists, there must be some way of updating it so that PP outputs Rams and cball hits as it has to keep score somehow
[Dec 19, 2013 3:36:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
1nkd

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What about detecting the sounds used?
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[Dec 19, 2013 4:54:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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For reference, here is the YPPedia article on third-party software policy; what it can and cannot do.
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Retired as of August 2015.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
[Dec 19, 2013 5:07:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
Shinito

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There is only one sound for a cannon ball hit and only one for a collision (they're all under rsrc/bundles/media/yohoho-sea/media/yohoho/sea/skirmish/sounds) so there is no way to distinguish who was hit and what kind of a collision occurred.
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Thorkill on Malachite 2.0 Obsidian
[Dec 19, 2013 5:11:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SecretRex



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yes there is only one sound however, the third party program rules do say that i can parse the log files, PP MUST have a battle score otherwise how would it know how much damage each vessel took?
therefore if the developers were to include this in the yohoho log files, third party programs such as mine would be able to parse that information.

Ergo what im asking for is the logs being updated not the sounds and through parsing the relevant information i would in no way be breeching the third part rules
[Dec 19, 2013 5:18:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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PP MUST have a battle score otherwise how would it know how much damage each vessel took?

That information is stored on the server and only the relevant information is sent to the client. The client doesn't keep score.

 
Ergo what im asking for is the logs being updated not the sounds and through parsing the relevant information i would in no way be breeching the third part rules

The OMs don't always have a clear understanding of programming issues, and since Liz has left OOO, there hasn't been much developer input. The impression I get is that battle damage counters are OK because Liz said they are OK, but going further scares the OMs since you are in a puzzle and part of the "puzzle" of bnavving is knowing how to recognize/count cannon ball hits and rams. Remember, after Liz left, the OMs determined that a program reading the chat log while playing poker was against the ToS. But, using sticky notes to help you with blacksmithing is OK.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Dec 19, 2013 5:42:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shinito

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yes there is only one sound however, the third party program rules do say that i can parse the log files, PP MUST have a battle score otherwise how would it know how much damage each vessel took?
therefore if the developers were to include this in the yohoho log files, third party programs such as mine would be able to parse that information.

Ergo what im asking for is the logs being updated not the sounds and through parsing the relevant information i would in no way be breeching the third part rules


Considering that OOO never really expressed much support for third-party tool I wouldn't get my hopes up. You could try running the client though a debugger an see if that produces anything noteworthy (it probably wont).
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Thorkill on Malachite 2.0 Obsidian
[Dec 19, 2013 5:48:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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yes there is only one sound however, the third party program rules do say that i can parse the log files, PP MUST have a battle score otherwise how would it know how much damage each vessel took?
therefore if the developers were to include this in the yohoho log files, third party programs such as mine would be able to parse that information.

Ergo what im asking for is the logs being updated not the sounds and through parsing the relevant information i would in no way be breeching the third part rules


Considering that OOO never really expressed much support for third-party tool I wouldn't get my hopes up. You could try running the client though a debugger an see if that produces anything noteworthy (it probably wont).


Running the client through a debugger is an expressly prohibited activity.

 
  • The software may not attempt to disassemble or reverse engineer parts of Puzzle Pirates executable code
  • The software may not directly or indirectly interact with a running Puzzle Pirates client

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Retired as of August 2015.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by LJAmethyst at Dec 19, 2013 6:12:09 PM]
[Dec 19, 2013 6:10:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
hammer1

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An old battle nav tool called Quarter Master ??? Used to keep count. So there is a way :D
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Blackhammer.
[Dec 19, 2013 11:19:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SecretRex



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QM kept the score via user input not automatically
[Dec 20, 2013 1:20:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thunar_Midi

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An old battle nav tool called Quarter Master ??? Used to keep count. So there is a way :D


Aye, QM damage counter input is manual.
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Thunar

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King of the flag Cross No More Rivers
Cerulean Ocean
[Dec 20, 2013 8:33:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
crazy2155

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Remember, after Liz left, the OMs determined that a program reading the chat log while playing poker was against the ToS. But, using sticky notes to help you with blacksmithing is OK.


I'm not sure if my tiredness is interpreting this wrong, but if you're wondering why the OMs determined a program reading the chat log whilst playing poker was against the ToS, it's pretty obvious. In the chatlog, it logs all the cards that are on the table. A person with some sort of competency in programming could easily make a program to read those cards and determine what the best hand is, and what the possibility of having that hand is. Thus; providing an unfair advantage.

Sticky notes would be allowed due to the fact that everyone can use them; (Even if you're on XP you can use notepad) and it provides no advantage that puts one player over another as it's still yourself solving the puzzle.
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Wat
[Dec 21, 2013 2:19:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Remember, after Liz left, the OMs determined that a program reading the chat log while playing poker was against the ToS. But, using sticky notes to help you with blacksmithing is OK.


I'm not sure if my tiredness is interpreting this wrong, but if you're wondering why the OMs determined a program reading the chat log whilst playing poker was against the ToS, it's pretty obvious. In the chatlog, it logs all the cards that are on the table. A person with some sort of competency in programming could easily make a program to read those cards and determine what the best hand is, and what the possibility of having that hand is. Thus; providing an unfair advantage.

You greatly overestimate how much of an advantage a program that calculates poker odds can give. It isn't like on TV where they show the audience the exact odds because on TV, they can see everyone's hands. The advantage of a poker program give about as much of an advantage as damage counters in bnav give. The poker program that OOO banned gave more bad advice than good.

 
Sticky notes would be allowed due to the fact that everyone can use them; (Even if you're on XP you can use notepad) and it provides no advantage that puts one player over another as it's still yourself solving the puzzle.

Part of the "skill" of bnav is being able to memorize the number of shots needed to max ships. Part of the "skill" of poker is being able to memorize the odds of getting hands. Part of the "skill" of blacksmithing is being able to memorize the different paths. OOO allows external tools to help people in some cases, but not others. And no, it is not practical for everyone to use sticky notes.


You are falling into the same trap that OMs do. You think that a "computer program" is magical and can do impossible things, but tools that you can touch are OK. TV shows are incredibly bad at this too. (e.g. GUI interface using visual basic to track the killers IP address)
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Dec 21, 2013 4:14:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hammer1

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It all depends on what the programs main use is and what you set its use for. A program to help pirates out , or a program to cheat ?

That being said if you create a program for the alchemist puzzle to give you over 5 colours being filled and all the bottles. That would be impressive ?

When developing third party programs there will always be a fine line between cheating and helping. Don't set out to make a program to cheat. But don't let that stop you from developing your ideas, for fear of breaking the rules. If your intentions are good in the first place you just have to accept the fact they see it as an unfair program.

Sometimes natural talent for computer programming is a scary thing, used correctly its Awesome !
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Blackhammer.
[Dec 21, 2013 4:46:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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When developing third party programs there will always be a fine line between cheating and helping.

The problem is that people have wildly different definitions of "cheating" and "helping". Is a poker program designed to help teach players the odds of various hands "cheating"? Is a program like QM that tries to help the bnavver to remember which jobbers are good or horrible (gold/black lists) "cheating"? There are people who think that grind is good and object to any help in things like shopkeeping.

Personally, my programs stay far away from doing anything in puzzles. The closest I get is having a program beep when I get engaged by a brigand or it beeps when it is time to vote is skellies.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Dec 21, 2013 5:07:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
crazy2155

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Remember, after Liz left, the OMs determined that a program reading the chat log while playing poker was against the ToS. But, using sticky notes to help you with blacksmithing is OK.


I'm not sure if my tiredness is interpreting this wrong, but if you're wondering why the OMs determined a program reading the chat log whilst playing poker was against the ToS, it's pretty obvious. In the chatlog, it logs all the cards that are on the table. A person with some sort of competency in programming could easily make a program to read those cards and determine what the best hand is, and what the possibility of having that hand is. Thus; providing an unfair advantage.

You greatly overestimate how much of an advantage a program that calculates poker odds can give. It isn't like on TV where they show the audience the exact odds because on TV, they can see everyone's hands. The advantage of a poker program give about as much of an advantage as damage counters in bnav give. The poker program that OOO banned gave more bad advice than good.

 
Sticky notes would be allowed due to the fact that everyone can use them; (Even if you're on XP you can use notepad) and it provides no advantage that puts one player over another as it's still yourself solving the puzzle.

Part of the "skill" of bnav is being able to memorize the number of shots needed to max ships. Part of the "skill" of poker is being able to memorize the odds of getting hands. Part of the "skill" of blacksmithing is being able to memorize the different paths. OOO allows external tools to help people in some cases, but not others. And no, it is not practical for everyone to use sticky notes.


You are falling into the same trap that OMs do. You think that a "computer program" is magical and can do impossible things, but tools that you can touch are OK. TV shows are incredibly bad at this too. (e.g. GUI interface using visual basic to track the killers IP address)


I don't overestimate it, Personally I think they are useless. But the reasoning behind log reading while playing poker is banned is due to the fact it can potentially give one player an unfair advantage over another, whether you personally find it useful or not.

If you can honestly calculate the odds of your poker hand winning against other poker hands and the odds of your opponents having those cards in the 30 seconds you get to decide your move, I'd be majorly impressed.

I'm sorry, my computer programs are magical.


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Wat
[Dec 21, 2013 2:19:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shinito

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I don't overestimate it, Personally I think they are useless. But the reasoning behind log reading while playing poker is banned is due to the fact it can potentially give one player an unfair advantage over another, whether you personally find it useful or not.

If you can honestly calculate the odds of your poker hand winning against other poker hands and the odds of your opponents having those cards in the 30 seconds you get to decide your move, I'd be majorly impressed.

I'm sorry, my computer programs are magical.



How would running a log based odds calculator be different from simply using a manual odds calculator, it would actually be even weaker since it couldn't account for player numbers and folds. And besides all that poker isn't even a game about odds (unless your one of the brain dead monkeys playing AoF) but rather about understanding other players motives.

Also, Delphi.
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Thorkill on Malachite 2.0 Obsidian
[Dec 21, 2013 3:15:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
crazy2155

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I don't overestimate it, Personally I think they are useless. But the reasoning behind log reading while playing poker is banned is due to the fact it can potentially give one player an unfair advantage over another, whether you personally find it useful or not.

If you can honestly calculate the odds of your poker hand winning against other poker hands and the odds of your opponents having those cards in the 30 seconds you get to decide your move, I'd be majorly impressed.

I'm sorry, my computer programs are magical.



How would running a log based odds calculator be different from simply using a manual odds calculator, it would actually be even weaker since it couldn't account for player numbers and folds. And besides all that poker isn't even a game about odds (unless your one of the brain dead monkeys playing AoF) but rather about understanding other players motives.

Also, Delphi.


I doubt a manual odds calculator would be allowed by Three Rings anyway. The odds do come into account when you're playing, I mean you're more likely to raise preflop if your hand has good odds. e.g. K,A compared to 7, 3. If you say poker has nothing to do with odds you're playing poker wrong.

Correct.
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Wat
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by crazy2155 at Dec 21, 2013 3:41:00 PM]
[Dec 21, 2013 3:28:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shinito

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I doubt a manual odds calculator would be allowed by Three Rings anyway. The odds do come into account when you're playing, I mean you're more likely to raise preflop if your hand has good odds. e.g. K,A compared to 7, 3. If you say poker has nothing to do with odds you're playing poker wrong.

Correct.


Things like K,A > 7,3 are common sense. What you will rarely need is to know the precise percentages of how likely it is that your hand will win and ofter following a purely statistical approach to poker will lead to many pitfalls.
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Thorkill on Malachite 2.0 Obsidian
[Dec 21, 2013 4:38:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
crazy2155

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I doubt a manual odds calculator would be allowed by Three Rings anyway. The odds do come into account when you're playing, I mean you're more likely to raise preflop if your hand has good odds. e.g. K,A compared to 7, 3. If you say poker has nothing to do with odds you're playing poker wrong.

Correct.


Things like K,A > 7,3 are common sense. What you will rarely need is to know the precise percentages of how likely it is that your hand will win and ofter following a purely statistical approach to poker will lead to many pitfalls.


Some people don't understand what good cards are in poker though, hence why calculators come in handy. It's still giving an unfair advantage to a person and using an external program to help "solve" poker. I mean closer percentages like this; Pre-Flop Hand Comparisons come in handy if you're not willing to memorize it - I know I'm definitely not.
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Wat
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