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Forums » List all forums » Forum: Piratical Parley and Politics » Thread: Riddle me this. |
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Thread Status: Normal Total posts in this thread: 267
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Dylan
Joined: Jul 21, 2003 Posts: 10005 Status: Offline |
I didn't say he had replied to your objections, I simply said that he understood them. |
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Markus1
Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 367 Status: Offline |
The more I think about it the more I agree with this and the more I think the settings were right. Right now people's standings and duty reports can vary widely. (I still maintain that awarding it for the best "fine" can take more skill and mastery of the puzzle and less luck than awarding it for the best incredible -- with the best "fine" your looking for a very precise and exact score, while with the best "incred" your looking for who gets lucky enough to pull the most perfects in a row) ---------------------------------------- Zingman Siochan Leat -- Carpe Noctem -- forever Midnight |
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Sagacious
Joined: Mar 6, 2006 Posts: 4798 Status: Offline |
This. ---------------------------------------- Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister Emerald & Obsidian - incognito! #TeamPurple |
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Perlandria
Joined: Jul 29, 2005 Posts: 1590 Status: Offline |
In spades. More than once I've seen someone I know is an active Ult get the Fine when they wanted that prize. There are players that nuanced and sophisticated in play - and willing to risk their rank to hit Fine as many times as it takes. It always gives me a double take to see Ult Pirate Name down in the Fines, and I compliment them in a congratulations tell with my awe at their finesse. ---------------------------------------- Furnishing Puzzle Project: Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545 Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead |
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mads0001
Joined: Jul 22, 2006 Posts: 6594 Status: Offline |
Only if you're easily capable of scoring above fine. ----------------------------------------
Avatar by Funny. |
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Jolyma
Joined: Sep 17, 2005 Posts: 8698 Status: Offline |
I realize mine will be an unpopular opinion, but... Familiars, especially tans, stopped being the equivalent of Olympic medals when they started being traded daily in the bazaars. I cherish my one and only familiar to this point. It probably could be said I lucked into getting the colored, because the first place race winner accidentally used their sloop in a sinker and lost before their results were verified. You couldn't give me enough poe to make me even consider selling it. Many familiar winners feel the same, especially colored familiars. But I see so many familiar brokers who buy and sell constantly...while I consider my parrot to be priceless, it is these people who have lessened the accomplishment that is a familiar, and not an act of silly spontaneity celebrating a long shot horse winning in the most spectacular race I have ever seen. ---------------------------------------- Jolyma Avatar by Sundancer |
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basso
Joined: Mar 19, 2006 Posts: 3156 Status: Offline |
All I said was that based on your post, I don't think you understand the principle involved. Your post talked about people being sore losers, which is not an issue here at all. Once again, I could care less who won, or what their stats are. I personally care about the fact that they won something valuable (the most valuable prize in the comp) yet did not perform the best. You then discussed ultimate players wanting time to "warm up" to beat lesser players. That is utter garbage of course. You ended with a barb about people not understanding defeat, which again misses the point. It is not about any person winning or losing. Dylan responded by saying you do in fact understand these points, which I disagree with. I don't know you or what you are thinking, and based on your post it didn't seem like you understood the issue at all. To everyone else, yes it takes a certain "skill" (I use that loosely) to manipulate the puzzle to get the top fine. Since none of us know the numerical score we are getting, or where the cutoff is, I hardly think it is an intended skill in the game. The purpose of the puzzles is to perform well, to help the ship move. Intentionally playing in such a way as to lower your score hardly fits with the spirit of the game. That is an additional reason I disliked what happened, because it gave people incentive to intentionally give worse performance. I would welcome a thought out response to the points others and myself have raised. If you'd like to flame me, that is perfectly fine too. ---------------------------------------- Montage of Sage
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Sagacious
Joined: Mar 6, 2006 Posts: 4798 Status: Offline |
Before you jump on me for saying the familiar was clearly the best prize out there and I'm a moron for thinking otherwise - please note the colour of the familiar. Of all colours, Tan has been well established as the least valuable colour in which to have a familiar. Even if I was desperate to obtain a familiar - the colour of familiar I win is still important. The colour says a lot about how you might have obtained the familiar. ---------------------------------------- Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister Emerald & Obsidian - incognito! #TeamPurple ---------------------------------------- [Edit 2 times, last edit by Sagacious at May 3, 2009 9:18:43 PM] |
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Tryalis
 Joined: Mar 7, 2009 Posts: 155 Status: Offline |
Even if you want a familiar that shows you as an "elite" pirate, winning a tan familiar is by far the best source of income to help obtain that goal of winning a Familiar auction for a colored familiar or whatever else. On hunter alone tans sell for 1.8-3m easily. Sell two and you have one of the coveted colored familiars that you think are so much better apparently. Using your own argument... you are stating that tan familiars don't compare to colored, yet you are comparing a sleeping turtle to a tan familiar? If any, very few entered the competition aimed solely at winning a turtle, and if they did, it was because they knew they had no chance at winning for best fine. Now as far as skill being needed to win best fine, that's very likely. However the winner of this competition on Hunter is distinguished in Rigging and clearly didn't manipulate the puzzle to win. He played as well as he could and got a very high fine, bordering good. Either way I don't really stand on either side of the opinion pool, I just don't think your arguments hold much weight. You can't argue that turtles are just as good a prize as tan familiars and then argue that tan familiars are worthless compared to colored familiars. And one more thing...
How do you figure? Sea horses are given out randomly as were serpents from my understanding... both attempts to give the average player a shot at getting a familiar... putting a tan as the best fine prize isn't stating that scoring Fine is performing the best, it is just another way to get tans out into the general population instead of the closet of a collector that wins them all the time. ---------------------------------------- Joe, From Hunter |
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Markus1
Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 367 Status: Offline |
Which is why if a competition like this was the norm, I'd be pissed -- but I'm not. It's been run ONCE, out of the hundreds of competitions that have been run. Running a competition like this once in a great awhile, is not a bad thing imho, and provides a great challenge to elite players (because they need to finesse their score to win) but also give a lottery chance (although unlikely) to the "Average Joe". If this competition had run for a couple of hours, I'd be willing to bet that most of the people in the top 10 of the fine category would have have natural standings of legendary or better. Elite players will look at the competition settings, say this is what they need to do to "win" -- and do that. ---------------------------------------- Zingman Siochan Leat -- Carpe Noctem -- forever Midnight ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Markus1 at May 3, 2009 9:33:17 PM] |
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basso
Joined: Mar 19, 2006 Posts: 3156 Status: Offline |
You are correct that some people might value a turtle over a tan/something parrot. Based on my knowledge of the game, turtles tend to be worth between 100-300k, while tan/something parrots are worth around 1.5m-2m. These are rough figures of course, based on transactions in the Sage Bazaar. So on Sage at least, the people have spoken, and overall tan parrots are much more valuable. For any given person, this might not be true though.
Haha, I give up. This quote makes me wonder why I even bother. Edit: Zingman, you make some really good points. My concern would be the precedent that this sets, and the overall tarnishing of what a "medal" used to be. Edit #3 I'm stupid :( ---------------------------------------- Montage of Sage
---------------------------------------- [Edit 3 times, last edit by basso at May 3, 2009 9:44:59 PM] |
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StuManchu
Joined: Jun 22, 2004 Posts: 7707 Status: Offline |
Gonna weigh in here as APPARENTLY a lot of this went down on a bote that I would've been on had I not been out of town. I agree that it may take a certain "skill" to target a score range on a puzzle. But I also agree with Montag, the act of sabotaging your own puzzle score subverts the ostensible purpose and spirit of the game. For the record I don't agree with the "best SCORE" format of awards to begin with: the Top Fine is still .00002 points below a really shitty Good, and in the Game Idea this hurts the pursuit of poes. Sure I agree with having awards in tournaments be more available to a broad base of the playing public, but damn. It's a familiar, it's still (despite the relative jadedness of Midnight's population) the pinnacle of achievement, symbolizing that you won something ridiculous, outperformed the vast, vast majority of your peers, or are a Really Cool Dude at Something. It's not 'oh I slapped my mouse with muh balls for 15 minutes and hurfadurf look at that a really crappy score' kind of prize. A familiar is symbolic. Who cares if they're being sold in the bazaar. There still aren't very many of them, anywhere. This instance kind of crystallizes how the game has continuously pandered more and more to the Young and Dumb. Nowadays competitions are kind of what's left of end-game stuff, and this has essentially deleted one of the few Really High End Goals that's still out there and being chased (extremely lazily, in some cases) by people who have been to the pinnacle of achievement in the majority of the other arenas the game encompasses. Let's just put familiars in the palace shoppe, turn Houses into Islands, remove sinking from the game, and not even bother with PvP. Now, the snippiness at and around my home-dog what put the tournament in play shall not be tolerated. ---------------------------------------- Was once Stuyvesant Redistribute your wealth, or we'll redistribute your blood. ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by StuManchu at May 3, 2009 9:38:26 PM] |
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tanonev
Joined: Nov 18, 2006 Posts: 2361 Status: Offline |
Outside of the "everyone" category, there is inevitably an arbitrary element to any contest designed to reward the "best" in a subset of participants. There are plenty of athletes who are significantly better than some Olympic participants but who don't get to go at all simply because they happen to represent an excessively large developed country. In an extreme case, even silver and bronze wouldn't necessarily mean that the recipients are second and third best in the world. Is this really any less arbitrary or unfair than the "top fine"? In a "top fine" competition, at least everyone gets to enter as they are. If I wanted a good shot at winning an ACM ICPC superregion, I'd have been better off moving to Egypt. To be clear, though, I don't begrudge those players their successes; what they've achieved, they did so fair and square, and it's great to be able to encourage competition at multiple levels, not just at the top. Yes, "top fine" is arbitrary. But so is every other system besides "who is the best of the best?", and if that's the only thing we have, then a lot of people are going to be frustrated. ---------------------------------------- Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian. Puppetar by Tilinka |
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Sagacious
Joined: Mar 6, 2006 Posts: 4798 Status: Offline |
---------------------------------------- Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister Emerald & Obsidian - incognito! #TeamPurple ---------------------------------------- [Edit 2 times, last edit by Sagacious at May 3, 2009 10:23:23 PM] |
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basso
Joined: Mar 19, 2006 Posts: 3156 Status: Offline |
Fair enough mate. For the sake of the discussion I am rather curious as to what it is based on. I naturally talk in terms of poe or doubloons, because frankly, people spend big time money on this game for those very things. Virtually every game activity is done to increase the poe/dubs a pirate has. Which is why I naturally think in those terms. Opportunity cost and all that jazz :) ---------------------------------------- Montage of Sage
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Jolyma
Joined: Sep 17, 2005 Posts: 8698 Status: Offline |
People who really cherish hard won items don't think of them in terms of poe or dubs though. I would be more offended that the pirate who won the tan immediately sold it than the fact they won it. I can see why people are upset, because Fine isn't creme de la creme. Or, they're upset because it was the first-ever Rigging one. To me though, putting a monetary value on something that used to be priceless is what devalues it. At that point, you can no longer compare them to Olympic Medals, which the winners cherish and do not sell. ---------------------------------------- Jolyma Avatar by Sundancer |
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Kaitysue
Joined: Sep 16, 2006 Posts: 509 Status: Offline |
If I was a pirate just starting out, I would rather work towards my dream familiar than just keeping a familiar simply because I won it. Yes the dream familiar may not have the, "I won it in a ___ tournament" story but it will have a story of what you did to achieve it, even if that involves winning a few tan familiars and selling them, then purchasing your dream familiar. ---------------------------------------- Kait on Emerald Queen of Rebound Senior Officer of Dynamite Residue |
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Parrrdner
Joined: Jun 7, 2007 Posts: 1371 Status: Offline |
I hope Apollo announces in round 5 of OCL Sea Battle that the team closest to 8 points at the end will win two tan familiars each. That would also be fun, and it would stop the same people from winning OCL Sea Battle all the time. If you don't understand why the above would be a problem, then I don't understand why you are playing a game that advertises success based on skill development rather than grind. ---------------------------------------- Pardner; Riot Forever [but not around :/ these days ] |
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vnork
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I hope Cleaver announces that the OM with an average petition rating closest to "2 out of 5" over the next week gets a bonus of 12,000 dollars. This would just purely be for fun and a break from the boredom of trying to actually give good customer service. To those who claim that it encourages subpar performance, the additional OMs that go on duty will help reduce the petition response time. -Vnork |
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Gillie017
Joined: Aug 3, 2006 Posts: 1043 Status: Offline |
We all know who will win that one, there is no competition. ---------------------------------------- If a bird looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a Huntard . ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Gillie017 at May 3, 2009 11:44:26 PM] |
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Parrrdner
Joined: Jun 7, 2007 Posts: 1371 Status: Offline |
Ooh I like Vnork's better. ---------------------------------------- Pardner; Riot Forever [but not around :/ these days ] |
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OdorOfFrodo
Joined: Jan 6, 2007 Posts: 4426 Status: Offline |
I'm sigging this. ---------------------------------------- Ecavatar by Ecastasy!
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bronzebeard
Joined: May 5, 2004 Posts: 2373 Status: Offline |
I'm not suprised by this latest game of everybody-wins! I would have come to this thread sooner, but I thought I'd let me creative juices be imbued with rage first. Let's look at all the things that devalued familiars:
Really, the only thing I can think of to fix all of this is to introduce a new unique familiar that can only be won rarely with top notch puzzling skill and to make them untradeable. Perhaps something that is like a pet but can follow ye around outside too. And something piratey too (not a rabbit). Having said that, don't introduce them by giving away 20 in a single weekend. Have to agree wholeheartedly with Stu's comment:
Familiars are already effectively in the palace shoppe since anyone with enough money can go and buy one. They really should be the ultimate prize fer everyone. Sure the best in each puzzle can have their #1 trophies but even they ye can also get trophies fer the mighty task of reaching broad (I can't even call this longevity) or randomly getting some gold. To the people that are seriously arguing that this is a good idea and that more people should get familiars because not everyone is skilled... what more do ye want? Everyone on a pillage tends to earn the same (I remember when people used to villainise those who used the harsher pay schemes), some chests from other voyage types are given fer unremarkable feats, there are already random familiars and pets fer the lesser people.
Before I'm done, might as well reply to the official response. Foremost, I'm surprised that ye don't even see why there's a problem here - that's worrying. I suppose it would have been less of a slap in the face if it was one of those random familiars as the prize (which should be given out far more often, because these ones should be devalued). It sounds like ye're implying that the best thing to do is to flood the game with loads more familiars to counter this mistake. Don't. ---------------------------------------- Peglegpaul Now on Obsidian! ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by bronzebeard at May 4, 2009 1:12:01 AM] |
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Sixsevenmark
Joined: Apr 21, 2007 Posts: 87 Status: Offline |
Top fine????? When they gonna give a fam away fer bottom booched, I might stand a chance then :-) No luck in being the worst Rigger on the oceans. It's all pure skill. You gotta move them peices around, so nothing breaks....ever, right? :s ---------------------------------------- Sixsevenmark ..............Truth & Justice..............Cerulean Doofuss........................Celestial Someones.....Cerulean Bradbury.......................Eye of the Needlefish...Cerulean Others on various oceans |
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TuucciZ
Joined: Nov 3, 2005 Posts: 2359 Status: Offline |
Top Incredible = Skill + Luck Top anything else = Luck ---------------------------------------- Tuuc on Sage. Yes, I'm back.
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Roleni
Joined: Aug 28, 2003 Posts: 4171 Status: Offline |
My personal recommendation? Everyone that has an issue with OOO pulling this kind of crap, send an email to support. Just because they're in San Francisco doesn't give them an excuse to be smoking whatever it was that they were today... ---------------------------------------- Thalatta & others Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!" Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!" |
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Grinfish
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 7984 Status: Offline |
Keep going folks, my "People in need of a rectal stick extraction kit" list is growing :D Sometimes, a sense of humour and occasion, as was the case here, far outweighs the ranting of those who claim divine right due to puzzle talent. Your time will come I'm sure, just stop being so impatient and full of ---------------------------------------- Whitewyvern. Distinctly Limey. Retired, No regrets. Unretired, still No regrets. Available in Cerulean and Obsidian flavours.
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vnork
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A sense of humor and occasion only works when the event reasonably mirrors the real life occurrence. When the winning horse at my local racetrack is randomly awarded the Triple Crown, I will gladly accept that a familiar should be awarded to the top fine in homage. -Vnork |
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Grinfish
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 7984 Status: Offline |
If only it had been a pedantry tournament, you might have won. The occasion was an unlikely winner. Having not seen the race itself, I can't presume as to whether it actually outraced the field, or whether other horses pulled up due to injury/fallers. If you drop the technicalities of the race (remember, a lot of pirates don't actually give a flying frig about the Kentucky Derby), the representation through the said rigging event was fair enough - an "unlikely winner". The same happened in the UK Grand National, with a 100/1 outsider winning from a field of 40 horses. Was it the best horse on the day, or was it part luck due to other horses slipping on loose turf, getting cut across by riderless mounts, jockeys having eaten too much the night before, etc. Familiars are not a marque of excellence. They can be bought and sold, just like the rest of the pixel trash. I just can't see why so many people are up on blocks over a bit of fun - unless of course, they only find enjoyment in getting what they want all the time, in which case feel free to continue the dummy-spitting and depramification of toys. ---------------------------------------- Whitewyvern. Distinctly Limey. Retired, No regrets. Unretired, still No regrets. Available in Cerulean and Obsidian flavours.
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Jolyma
Joined: Sep 17, 2005 Posts: 8698 Status: Offline |
The horse was a 50-1 longshot. It was a newbie trainer from New Mexico who bought the Thoroughbred for $9500 and trained him himself. You have to understand though, this horse was racing in a field of horses mostly bought for over $1 million with the top worth being $3.75 million. The horse was hit from the horses on both sides coming out of the gate. The jockey held him at 13th in a field of 19 until the backstretch, when he let him loose up the rail. The horse went from about 20 lengths back to win by 6-8 lengths. It was like he was racing alone. It was spectacular. Oh, and he almost didn't get to race because his trainer had shattered his ankle a few days before. The guy actually drove the 1500 miles from NM to Kentucky to make it though. I think it warranted exuberance on the part of horse racing fans. ---------------------------------------- Jolyma Avatar by Sundancer |
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