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Karnisov

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question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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So how exactly will the duty nav tweak effect trading voyages? Or will it only effect pillys?
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Karnisov
flinging poo on the forums because its more fun than playing your broken game
[Mar 18, 2009 11:58:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cephalopod
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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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So how exactly will the duty nav tweak effect trading voyages? Or will it only effect pillys?

As always, dnav on trading voyages will reduce brigand spawns. It's just that the math backing it has changed some.
[Mar 18, 2009 12:17:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kotetsu534



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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Does it only work if you are performing well at DNav, or does it have some effect even at Fine/Good?
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Nomura, SO of Innocent, Member of Crimson Tide, Midnight.
[Mar 18, 2009 12:19:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Karnisov

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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So how exactly will the duty nav tweak effect trading voyages? Or will it only effect pillys?

As always, dnav on trading voyages will reduce brigand spawns. It's just that the math backing it has changed some.


could we get more details on how much its changed. like does performance have more or less influence on outcome now?
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Karnisov
flinging poo on the forums because its more fun than playing your broken game
[Mar 18, 2009 12:25:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Does it only work if you are performing well at DNav, or does it have some effect even at Fine/Good?


This is the million poe question.
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Cephalopod
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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Does it only work if you are performing well at DNav, or does it have some effect even at Fine/Good?

It has a greater effect the better your performance is. And it's now a more generous curve for that than it used to be.
[Mar 18, 2009 1:49:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Squashbuckle

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Does it only work if you are performing well at DNav, or does it have some effect even at Fine/Good?

It has a greater effect the better your performance is. And it's now a more generous curve for that than it used to be.


I look forward to having my dnav matter on my next trade run. Thanks for fixing this!
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Polly
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[Mar 18, 2009 1:55:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
KingOfZeal

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Indeed. I'll be sailing a galleon this evening full of passion fruit (2 updates in one)... I'm always looking for help. I'll post what I think when I'm done with it.

As a control, on a normal 11-14 league run, I'd get engaged 2-3 times; I've had one run we weren't engaged at all, and normally I pull good/excellents.
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Yamorg, Captain and Navigator
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[Mar 18, 2009 2:09:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    KingOfZeal [Link]  Go to top 
Karnisov

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Does it only work if you are performing well at DNav, or does it have some effect even at Fine/Good?

It has a greater effect the better your performance is. And it's now a more generous curve for that than it used to be.


I look forward to having my dnav matter on my next trade run. Thanks for fixing this!


/agree. thx devs.
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Karnisov
flinging poo on the forums because its more fun than playing your broken game
[Mar 18, 2009 2:34:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
vnork



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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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It has a greater effect the better your performance is. And it's now a more generous curve for that than it used to be.


I look forward to having my dnav matter on my next trade run. Thanks for fixing this!

A "more generous curve" doesn't really imply that spawns will be reduced after the update for the high end dnavver.

-Vnork
[Mar 18, 2009 8:11:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
KingOfZeal

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Ug. I just got done with the trade run I was supposed to do last night. 20 league sail, with 10 on board (dwindled to 8 by the time we hit land). I was getting engaged 1-3 times every league, landing excellents and increds (I think I might have has 2 goods the entire trip).

My opinion: it was rough. Rougher than it was before the update. I can't say how the dnav curve was changed, but it seems almost inverse. Landing an incred I still was engaged 1 time, landing a good it was about 3 times. As I said earlier, normally on a run with the same DR I would get 3 engages on a trip. This last trip I count 11 sets of turn abouts -- either with an engagement or before they could. In all cases, it was a green galleon that we turned for.

I also noticed on soloing a sloop (gem running, set to trade), I was getting about a ship a league that would turn to engage me, as opposed to one every 3-4 leagues pre-update. For my sloops, I only dnav the first league to get up to speed. So, I suppose the spawning system took me as pillying and gave me the ships for that end.


One last thing: I don't need 20 bots on a galleon to transport it, especially when there's only 9 sails. 4 on carp, 3 on bilge will keep those empty, and leave me with 8/9 sails full. There's a bot that hops on after I get off that fills the 9th. With 20 bots, the last 4 are useless, since they'd only be able to go to carp or bilge which is already being taken care of. The extra 30 poe/league does not excite me in that regard. It may be helpful for grands and war frigs, but galleons it's overkill. I'm just glad sloops stayed the same.
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Yamorg, Captain and Navigator
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[14:37:38] Mystere says, "Those without a barnacle , please come aboard the Pretty Gar"

[Mar 19, 2009 8:25:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    KingOfZeal [Link]  Go to top 
calorifere

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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One last thing: I don't need 20 bots on a galleon to transport it, especially when there's only 9 sails. 4 on carp, 3 on bilge will keep those empty, and leave me with 8/9 sails full. There's a bot that hops on after I get off that fills the 9th. With 20 bots, the last 4 are useless, since they'd only be able to go to carp or bilge which is already being taken care of. The extra 30 poe/league does not excite me in that regard. It may be helpful for grands and war frigs, but galleons it's overkill. I'm just glad sloops stayed the same.

Join us on this thread.
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Hatchetback
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[Mar 19, 2009 10:08:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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So how exactly will the duty nav tweak effect trading voyages? Or will it only effect pillys?

As always, dnav on trading voyages will reduce brigand spawns. It's just that the math backing it has changed some.

"As Always"?

Do you mean that it was supposed to be reducing spawns before? Why them was everyone that posted in GD concluding that it had no effect, and even re-reading the original thread they commented that it was never actually mentioned as doing that -- people were saying that they had better luck using pillage, very easy, than trade.

In any event, I'm glad it's working that way now.
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vnork



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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Do you mean that it was supposed to be reducing spawns before? Why them was everyone that posted in GD concluding that it had no effect, and even re-reading the original thread they commented that it was never actually mentioned as doing that -- people were saying that they had better luck using pillage, very easy, than trade.

In any event, I'm glad it's working that way now.

I've said this a million times now in GD and elsewhere, but I've seen profound decreases in spawn while on trading mode. If you're expecting 90% reduction - then yeah, anecdotal evidence is going to make it seem like dnav isn't having a big effect. In doing slightly more rigorous tests, I fairly consistently saw 50-75% reduction while dnavving at a high excellent+ level. Somtimes there will be only a 10-25% reduction, which really is difficult to tell the difference with not dnavving unless you're really carefully counting. It's possible that the curve was too steep, as I don't have much experience with the effect of fine/good dnav.

-Vnork
[Mar 23, 2009 6:06:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dorby

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Do you mean that it was supposed to be reducing spawns before? Why them was everyone that posted in GD concluding that it had no effect, and even re-reading the original thread they commented that it was never actually mentioned as doing that -- people were saying that they had better luck using pillage, very easy, than trade.

.


I was thinking the same thing, I don't believe we've had Official Confirmation of this before, so it's good to know that Dnav DOES reduce Spawns, or at least, it is meant to, on Trading voyages.

;-)
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Coteaz - Everywhere!
[Mar 23, 2009 7:33:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ALF71BE

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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It has always worked.

The whiners obviously suck at it.
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"All that I have played seems like straw to me."

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kenjennings

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Pre-update, I would get engaged once in 5 leagues, at the least. Now? I have to agree with the above poster, the rate has skyrocketted, and that's with pulling excellents/increds. I don't know if the increased spawn rate has to do with the increased rates for pillaging, if it's a bug in this specific update, or it's intended to spawn spam dnavers, but it's a real pain in the butt now relative to before this update.

Whether it was going on or not, I felt like my dnav scoring repelled spawns prior to the update. It feels like a magnet more than anything at the moment.
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DreadedChris



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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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It has always worked.

The whiners obviously suck at it.


#1 in my arch, Legendary on Midnight, sparkly at half a league, usually sparkly for the remainder of the voyage, and I still found the 'spawn reduction' to be imperceptible.

A lot of that is probably other factors than actual spawn count - when I DO get spawn, I have a little tiny window in which to notice them which may not be big enough if they wait for me at a league point, and in some cases where I COULD have turned about, I'm puzzle-visioned and walk into them.

I also think that once you have ANY spawn you then often end up pacing it for several leagues, and may have to turnabout several times to avoid that same ship... whether I have one spawn in 5 leagues or 3 spawn in 5 leagues doesn't affect my perception of the difficulty of the voyage. Only the number of times I have to evade (or times I get intercepted) is apparent to me. Since duty navigation does not appear to affect being engaged once a spawn exists, passing your own spawn is chancy and inadvisable. I used to try it, but found that despite apparently being quiet, ie, no double-turn to match course, at least... not within site of the tiny window ... not yet attempting to engage... still, too often they'll engage while you're right on top of them before you can complete the pass. So you have to turn about basically for any ship that might be your spawn on that route, even if it isn't ACTUALLY your spawn. No way to know until you're on top of them and they suck you into sea battle.


Mostly it irritates me because I thought the duty nav influences were supposed to replace silly turnabout-timing games in the crow's nest, but it really doesn't. It is much easier to avoid interception by getting into the crow's nest and turning about in a timely fashion than by duty navigating to 'reduce spawn'.

(I still duty navigate commod runs anyway most of the time, unless i get seriously ticked about the number of interceptions, because I happen to like the duty navigation puzzle a lot.)

I haven't done much in the way of runs since this latest update, however, so I cannot comment directly on the CURRENT effect of duty navigation and merchant settings.

I have, however, noticed on ci trips (which I don't dnav for) that spawn are extremely aggressive about engaging these days, turning about repeatedly until your speed is low enough that they can head-on engage.
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~< The Dread Pirate Chris >~
[Mar 23, 2009 8:37:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Squashbuckle

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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It has always worked.

The whiners obviously suck at it.


My main is top-5 and my primary alt has a #1 dnav trophy. I never had a measurable spawn reduction for my sparkly dnav efforts.

I haven't tried a trade run since this last update, so I can't comment on the current system, but under the old system, dnav had no noticeable effect (other than thwarting PvP) even at the top of the puzzling curve.
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Polly
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[Mar 23, 2009 8:40:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ALF71BE

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Then it must be the game that hates you, because I have always noticed an effect on it.

I would usually end up engaged in the first league, without dnaving, on any hard route, and any pillage setting would also generate me a first league spawn, regardless of difficulty, and afterwards every league or two. This is both before and after the new update, though the new update tends to give me more spawns when I start booching constellations (from nothing to one every two or one and a half leagues). Extended practice is needed, you can't really average with low experience on it. Have you guys actually tried a pillage setting, anyways?

And yes, I agree with Chris, you have to turn about at anything that may look like a spawn.
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"All that I have played seems like straw to me."

[Mar 23, 2009 9:08:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DreadedChris



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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Tried a pillage setting?

I use the trading voyage setting for commod runs. That's supposed to reduce spawn. A pillaging setting ought to increase spawn, which seems counterproductive. I haven't used the pillaging settings in a couple months. They do seem to attract spawn, but I don't like to duty nav on pillages, for a variety of reasons discussed in other threads.
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~< The Dread Pirate Chris >~
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ALF71BE

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Then with what are you comparing it? A trade run is suppossed to reduce the spawns from a normal setting, ie, a pillage setting.

Those who don't suck shouldn't get more than one spawn every five to seven leagues, which is quite low compared to the two or three a pillage without a dnaver sees.
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"All that I have played seems like straw to me."

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Squashbuckle

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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I used to regularly move MBs over a 7 league route. Whether I set pillage or trade, I spawned 2-3 ships over the course of that run, and typically had to turn about 5 times. At least on pillage settings the spawns were green instead of orange. Of course, pillage settings don't pay jobbers per league, so not everyone has the luxury of choosing.

I didn't do sloop runs as often, but with the handful I did (once a month, 40 leagues at a time), I never noticed a difference between settings. In fact, the last race I ran on trade setting I was as sparkly as ever and had at least a dozen spawns and three LP engagements. Whatever dnav used to do, it wasn't much.
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Polly
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[Mar 23, 2009 9:40:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cephalopod
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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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"As Always"?

Do you mean that it was supposed to be reducing spawns before? Why them was everyone that posted in GD concluding that it had no effect

And there you have it if you read down in this thread; some people swearing it does nothing, some people swearing it does. And I know what the numbers from the logs say, but of course rarely will people in GD believe me when I say things like that (I almost started detailing other cases, but don't want to derail into that)

It has always done this. There just used to be enough noise and wackiness in spawning that you could trivially come to any conclusion you wanted about it thanks to observation bias.
[Mar 23, 2009 10:12:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
emerson

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Hm. As I dnav a sloop with 3 bots aboard, I rarely get more than one spawn on a ~15 league run. The other night, I had zero spawns, as far as I know (unless someone intercepted mine, but I didn't see anyone engaged along the route). So I think it's always worked reasonably well for me (the only time it sucks is when they get you halfway to the first league point after deporting...guaranteed engage :p)

Emerson,
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Cleaver shouts, "I lub this island."
Personally I think that TITS are a technique if they are used less than once every three moves. Any more than that, and you're just waving your exploits in their faces. - Flamer
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DreadedChris



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I'm comparing it against trade run setting while not duty navigating at all, which should give neutral level ocean spawn. I don't think there's any question that duty navigating with a pillage setting gives increased spawns compared to not duty navigating. Duty navigating with the trading setting is SUPPOSED to give less spawn than ocean-neutral, not just less spawn than duty navigating while on a pillage setting.

When not duty navigating, it helps to have someone sailing, although on a sloop it's possible to just let the bots do the work.

I just made a run, 3 leagues to pick up my cargo, trade setting, no duty navigation, no spawn.

Left port for the long leg of the journey, duty-navigating on trade setting, no spawn until about 4 leagues out by which time I was sparkling. Another spawn three leagues later, still sparkling, and the need to suddenly turnabout caused me to screw up the puzzle, at a very bad time (just before placing what should've been the last star in 3-star outer ring), so I was doing very badly with one more spawn a few leagues later, after which I ported at my destination.

You can say that is not a sufficient sample size (it's not, it's true) but it's typical of what I find, that is, that interception attempts are about the same average (once every 3-4 leagues - not always so evenly spread) whether I'm not duty navigating (which is how I move sloops for short hops), duty navigating badly (normally meaning first league, but also sometimes after the scramble to turn about as today), or sparkling.

I suppose I should try running the twelve leagues part while crow's nesting as a control sometime when I'm not hurried, but it's a boring way to sail.

The only thing atypical on this run was not meeting first-league spawn on either first league, but I only see first league spawn maybe a third of the time.
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~< The Dread Pirate Chris >~
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ALF71BE

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Ergo, the game hates you.
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"All that I have played seems like straw to me."

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kenjennings

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Ok, so I've been engaged at league points twice in the last 4 or 5 leagues now with full sparkly incredible dnaving on a trade run, where it is near impossible to turn about in time as you're already at full speed. I'll put this as politely as I can because this is incredibly frustrating, but your update isn't working as it is supposedly intended to so I suggest you stop being so stubborn in your claim that it is and look into it. I didn't get half as many engagements before this update as I am getting now.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by kenjennings at Mar 28, 2009 10:25:37 AM]
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Kraften

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Ok, so I've been engaged at league points twice in the last 4 or 5 leagues now with full sparkly incredible dnaving on a trade run, where it is near impossible to turn about in time as you're already at full speed. I'll put this as politely as I can because this is incredibly frustrating, but your update isn't working as it is supposedly intended to so I suggest you stop so stubborn in your claim that it is and look into it. I didn't get half as many engagements before this update as I am getting now.

I noticed the same. Trade run with sparkles or trade run picking my nose... I didn't see a difference. I'm not asking 0 spawn when I have sparkles, but the effect should be visible without drawing huge stats on thousands of league points. If it's so random I need to navigate 100 league points to see an effect, it's a failure for me, nothing has changed.
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Midnight Ocean - Kraften - The Aqua Rainbow.
[Mar 28, 2009 10:16:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Zzyzx7

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Re: question about release 3-18-2009 duty nav tweak Reply to this Post
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Just me 2 PoEs worth --

I run solo sloop trade runs, set on trade.

Pre-update I definitely saw a reduction of spawn when dnavving. I am roughly a master dnavver, so pull goods and excellents with plenty of noise. I don't love the puzzle so I often move to the crow's nest. When I'm not lazy and puzzling and scoring reasonably well, I definitely get fewer spawns. When I'm lazy and sitting in the crow's nest I get more spawn. I do both activities - puzzling and lazing, often switching halfway through a long run - so the difference in spawn rate is very noticable to me.

Post-update -- I have noticed very little change. I don't have enough data to say exactly how the update has effected my spawn rate when I'm doing well vs puzzling poorly or not at all. I can say that I have had plenty of runs where my spawn rate is low while doing well at the puzzle, including an 8-league run yesterday with zero turnarounds, scoring exc/inc. So I can say that those who are seeing tons and tons more spawn now are experiencing something very different from what I am experiencing.

So I don't know exactly what those who are complaining are experiencing, but it's certainly not universal. I wonder about some of the complaints, this guys said this...
 
Ug. I just got done with the trade run I was supposed to do last night. 20 league sail....I was getting engaged 1-3 times every league, landing excellents and increds...
.......
This last trip I count 11 sets of turn abouts...

Engaged 1-3 times per league for 20 leagues with a total of 11 turn abouts? I'm missing something, or you are exaggerating.

Maybe the update is broken in that different people are experiencing very different things. All I can say is that for this pirate it appears to be working just as advertised.
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