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tcarr

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Nibbler wiki article

It's likely too late to get in on this round of puzzles, but I have been trying to think of a way to turn Parfait into a puzzle for YPP for about six months now, and this morning I finally got a great idea.

Most of the difficult code for Nibbler is already written (Parfait, Feasting). I'll cobble up some images as soon as I can, using the existing graphics for Feasting.

For those not familiar with Parfait, it's a logic puzzle.

Feedback please (or nominations? I have it set in my head at any rate, but might have missed something on the wiki.)
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Dec 23, 2006 7:00:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
skmsnail

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You MIGHT want to be careful with the name of this game, given there was a DOS based game called Nibbles and I don't want you to get caught up with infringments, but I still look forward to tring out this puzzle...the other ones load a little slow for me on high speed but it's possible my PC sucks...LoL
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Supersnailie on Midnight and Sage...and slowly Viridian
Montage says, "each time someone solos...an angel loses its wings"
Chumbucket says, "You are a snail, how fast can you run away?
Merrysplicer says, "i started to laugh but
[Dec 24, 2006 2:15:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I picked Nibbler out of the list of fishnames. The name of the game on Game Gardens would be "GCPP Nibbler". We can easily change the name if there happens to be a problem, but Nibbler != Nibbles.

About speed.... have you tried playing the GameGardens games using the "Play" link instead of the "Play in applet" one? After you download the game gardens client jar file once, then you don't have to do that again and it's a very easy fast download for the jar file for a given game. there are bugs in the "play in applet" mode of most of the games.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Dec 24, 2006 3:12:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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It occurs to me that Nibbler might make a good candidate for a puzzle with a "cooperative play" setting. If multiple players are at the table, each gets his/her own set of hints. They take turns placing items on the board (or asking for hints), and split the total points evenly. The total number of board resets allowed would be increased so that the total points for each player for that game would the same as if a single player had played the game.

Players would be expected to discuss strategy in the chat window. Are they trying to make a multiple row/col/diagonal combo? etc.

Obviously, cooperative play only happens with multiple players at the table. I would have to think about how hard it would be to code the game to *also* allow a competitive mode - but competitive mode would not be for GCPP (even if it turns out to be fun).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Dec 25, 2006 6:24:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jdnx429

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Well, personally I really like Parfait so I would certainly like to see something like this in the main game.
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Josephdaniel on Midnight.
[Dec 28, 2006 11:16:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CraftingProj

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If you are officially nominating a proposal, then you must say so specifically.

If you think the proposal is ready for coding, then nominate it. If you don't think it is ready, then *please* give some kind of suggestion for what needs to be done next.
[Dec 30, 2006 8:39:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I think instead of feeding a cracker to the parrot, and the parrot then picking a random spot, the player should place a cracker on the board (where the *player* wants information). The parrot then swoops down, snags the cracker, and leaves the fruit behind. This would encourage high level players to examine the board to see which location would give them the most information.

We may need to have the board reset less often than every 3 correct placements. Hmmm.... 6? just every time a row/col/diagonal is removed? no... I think that last would make it too easy for people to plan doubles and triples. Definitely every time a player booches.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Dec 30, 2006 8:20:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I've been thinking about the cooperative multi-player version. I think that the easiest (and possibly most fun) would be the following.

Each player works separate boards. If one player finishes a row/column/diagonal, and the next move that the other player makes is also finishing a row/column/diagonal, then both players get a bonus. (a third player then finishing with the very next move would give all three of them a bonus, so that all three have the same amount of total bonus, etc). If the two boards finished the exact same row/column/diagonal, there's a larger bonus than if they finished different ones. Players would need to discuss strategy in the chat window, to decide when to harvest a row/column/diagonal.

The other ways I had been considering would mean playing the game would take longer for multi-player mode, and all players would be on the same board. I think giving them separate boards is likely the way to do it, although it does mean that one player can't give advice to the other one or share the crackers.

Multi-layer puzzles would either have to be non-rated, or be very very careful that somebody double-clienting doesn't have a distinct edge. I *think* that the above proposal would mean doing the puzzle twice, solo, would be about as much work as doing it once, double-clienting (and double-clienting would be more confusing).

I'm seeing this as a foraging puzzle, hopefully getting crews to forage as a party type activity instead of solo. It could easily be adapted to any industry however, by just changing the graphics and the names of the items on the board (and in the clues).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Dec 31, 2006 8:08:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CraftingProj

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The GCPP committee has decided to streamline the process for nomination. If a coder (such as Tcarr) wants to start work on a proposal, all that is needed is that coder saying so and a three day waiting period for objections. So basically whenever you think it's ripe enough Tcarr - assuming you want to code it yourself.
[Jan 2, 2007 5:12:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Cool! I'm sure that more great ideas will be suggested, but I would like to start coding soon please - at least the basic game, and then we can tweak it.

So this starts the 3 day waiting period, right? Any objections? Or better yet, suggestions for improvement?
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 2, 2007 6:24:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CraftingProj

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Added to status board, marked as:
Waiting for objections (Friday evening)
Designer: tcarr
Arrtist: ??????
Programmer: tcarr
[Jan 2, 2007 8:17:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CraftingProj

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The three day waiting period having passed with no objections, this one is GO to code.

(assuming Tcarr didn't already start coding a week ago o course ;-) )
[Jan 6, 2007 5:49:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Ooooh I am really looking forward to this one :)
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 6, 2007 6:27:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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The three day waiting period having passed with no objections, this one is GO to code.

(assuming Tcarr didn't already start coding a week ago o course ;-) )


Ye know me so well!!! ;-)

actually, I've been busy with rewriting Parfait and Mummichog, and the Mummichog tutorial... until yesterday. Yesterday I couldn't stand any more waiting, and started on Nibbler. It still has a long way to go though, because I'm having to redo the data structures quite a bit to handle the cooperative version (and I didn't want to mess with parallel arrays). This one is going to have more java classes that ye can shake a stick at...... but it should be cleaner code than even the rewritten Parfait code. I hope.

one more week and i'm back to working full time again, so i'll see how much I can get done afore then.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 6, 2007 7:12:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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*idea*

The first version or several of Nibbler will use fruits, because I already have fruit graphics and the textual clues for fruits. Nibbler could be redone for any industry, as I noted in the original proposal for it.

But it occurs to me that it would be very well suited for Tailoring. Lots of items of clothing have parts that you need two of, or come in pairs. Boots come in pairs, so we would just need three things that you put together to make one boot (sole would be one). Shirts have two sleeves, a right and left side, and I'm sure we could think of something else they need two of. When a Nibbler player finishes a row or column, it will have all the parts needed for one piece of clothing, so that item of clothing appears with the score animation.

does anybody else see this?
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 6, 2007 7:34:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Question: I played parfait and had a perfect score, I don't remember the final length of the chain but it was over vegas^20, and as much as I would love to finally be ultimate in a puzzle... what happens if someone doesn't booch?

Are the clues such that, if you apply enough logic, you can deduce 3 items every time before the board resets, or will there be times when you would be forced to guess? I know in the storyboard example the player didn't see any possibilities and took a hint instead, but that doesn't mean that they are not there, not everyone knows how to make the logic connections needed to figure some things out.

I have seen some logic puzzles where you do have to make an educated guess but that is usually done in conjunction with the rest of the clues and given information. I suppose adding a time constraint would limit this some, but I hope that won't be the case - that is alchemistry's biggest plus - because it is the only game where time is not a factor.

If a person guesses wrong is it a true booch where the board completely resets (including all previously placed items) or just a break in the bonus chain and new clues appear?)

Will there be a way to eliminate possibilities from a location? The majority of logic puzzles are solved by figuring out where things can NOT be rather than where they are, but this isn't shown in your example graphic.

I suggest that the clues actually be shown with graphics rather than a lot of text, given the multiple languages present. When I played parfait I actually set it to standard english as opposed to the pirate talk, I prefer to figure out the puzzle rather than the clues.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 6, 2007 11:51:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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If you look at the images I have for the storyboard for Nibbler, the graphical clues are above the columns and to the left of the rows. On the easiest level there will be a clue for each row and each column, and it's possible that the clues will determine a full solution from that. The rest of the levels will get 6-8 clues total, and you will not be able to solve the full board (sometimes a few locations but sometimes none - the key there is determining the key position on the board where one hint will give you the most information). Try playing Feasting to get an idea of the types of visual clues I'll be using.

I'm not sure about the board resetting after every 3 placements.... I think for version 1 I won't have it reset at all for just counting placements. We can restrict resetting the board to after each booch and each clearing of a row or column for version 1. (I'm having second thoughts about diagonals) Booching will definitely reset the board, and on the higher levels add a "booched" tile to the board that can never be changed.

About people who don't every booch (for some reason). The points for consecutive correct placements are going to be minor compared to filling a row/col, and filling a row and a column with one placement will be even better. The problem with filling both a row and col with one placement is that you either have to use more hints, get lucky, or risk booching - and when the board resets there will be far fewer tiles already on it than if you had only taken one row/col. Strategy there - filling as many spots as possible on the board before harvesting a row/col (or double).

The cooperative level of play will provide opportunities for even higher points. I don't think that we will have problems with players who score max possible points each time they play, even if they have to double client to do so. I'm not positive how this will work yet, because it's getting complicated... need version 1 up so we can test it and see just how lucky you have to be to get fantastic scores (I'm very good at logic puzzles myself, so if I make a level that forces me to use hints or start guessing, then it should be hard enough).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 7, 2007 4:01:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Progress report:
My desktop Nibbler now generates the initial puzzle for several different difficulty levels, and displays the sprites correctly. I'm using ugly "programmer art", so if an arrrrtist would like to join the team, I'd be grateful.

There doesn't appear to be room on the board for both a text version of all the clues and small snapshots of other player's boards for cooperative mode. I think what I'll need to do is leave room for a single text clue, and have it update when a player clicks one of the pictorial clues (so that players who do not understand the pictures get some assistance - and some people *like* reading the Pirate clues).

I'm not doing very much toward the cooperative mode *yet*. I figure we need to get the one-player game working decently first.

For version one, the three difficulty levels are:
1: Twelve clues (one for each row, each column) and twelve hint tokens (crackers).

2: Twelve clues, six crackers.

3: 5-6 clues, six crackers.

From my experience with Parfait and Feasting, *sometimes* 12 clues will be enough to completely determine a puzzle. 12 clues and six hints (if used judiciously) are always ample. Level 3 might be too hard, if we expect 6 boards total. Level 1 might be too hard for complete beginners - if that turns out to be the case, I can add an even easier level that has some starting fruits already placed.

We do not need (or even want) starting boards where the puzzle can be completely determined. Players should use strategy with the hint tokens, aiming for having a few fruits on the board in addition to a full row/column. When the row/column is completed, it is cleared and a new board generated (I haven't coded that part yet), but any other remaining fruits will still be on the board somewhere, which will make the next puzzle easier even if there are fewer hints left.

The idea with version 1 is to just get a prototype up and running, so that we have a basis for discussions here. I'm hoping to have it up by this weekend. (back to full time work on Monday)

Screenie of what I have so far:

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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 9, 2007 2:41:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Idea:
instead of a fixed number of boards (and having to squeeze more images on the screen, so players know when they are almost done), you lose one cracker each time the board resets (whether due to booching or to filling a row/col). We give the players more crackers than 12/6. Players who are stumped use crackers for hints or gamble on booching (either way losing one cracker). When a player runs out of crackers, he continues to play (with no hints available) until he booches or fills a row/col. Expert players will be able to play a lot longer, racking up a lot more points. Clueless beginners will just use the hints to fill a few rows/cols without really understanding the clues yet, and finish fairly quickly, before getting too frustrated (I hope).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 9, 2007 7:06:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Wiki proposal has been updated with my current plans for Nibbler, but barely touching on the cooperative puzzle aspect. I'm still thinking about the cooperative aspect. I need to make a QuickStart graphic.

I *think* after I get it working, even solo play would be cooperative. If there are fewer than three players at the table, a bot is generated for each missing place. The bot plays rather badly, but does finish a row or column every once in a while, which will give the solo player a chance for a cooperation bonus.

Due to layout size, I don't think that showing small boards for each player is going to work. Players will just have to announce over chat which row or column they think they can complete soon. The bot won't give any warning. (It's a lot easier on the server if the bot doesn't really play the game, just at random times decides that he finished a row/col and that row/col is then highlighted on each player's board.)
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 10, 2007 6:32:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I have Nibbler working on first board only (no resetting yet), and have been keeping track while play testing it. Using the twelve random clues, the number of tiles I could determine without guessing or using a hint were:
36, 18, 14, zero, 18, 4, 1, 14, 10, 7, 7, 7

In all cases if I could determine six, I had a full row or full column. I think I'm going to have to put back the "new board after so many correct placements" trigger. Otherwise an ult type player who gets a great board (18+) could do a checkerboard pattern as much as possible, then fill in one row and one column with the shared tile last. This would still leave a lot of placed tiles on the next board, making it likely that he could repeat the feat.

Reset on 12 feels reasonable. A player whose initial board is completely solvable would have to choose between getting the row + column combo and having no placed fruits for second board, or taking only a row or column and leaving 6 placed fruits for the second board.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 10, 2007 6:37:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Wiki has been updated, adding the max of 12 placements before a board resets as well as the following QuickStart guide:


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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 10, 2007 8:07:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Cooperation:
I am not entirely certain how the cooperation aspect works in a crafting puzzle. How would it work to start at the same time? When someone clicks on 'Do yer job" do they have to wait until a few others do so also (like the parlor games?) Is it global, where the players do not need to be in the same shoppe, island, or even arch? Or would there be a station in a shoppe that requires several people to click on it to begin working together? Personally, I think one of the plusses of a crafting puzzle is the ability to do them whenever, without having to wait for others who feel like playing (like you do for the parlor games.)

I can see the cooperation if this were to be a foraging puzzle though, because that is pretty easy to start all at once. I definitely think foraging needs something to at least make it interesting. Of course, most people won't puzzle if they don't get paid so that would need to be taken into account somehow. As it stands it is not very profitable to use one labor hour to get one unit of fruit (often limes which are rarely worth more than one poe and the forager doesn't usually get anyway.) So maybe have it do something like, "for every x number of fruit total on the completed boards, a unit of that fruit is foraged." Possibly only collect the fruit that had the most? Would the gems on the board maybe go for valuable items like gold ore? Still keeping the gold ore random, but having gems increases the possibility, maybe. How about a final clue that shows up when the puzzle is complete along the lines of, "start at the limes go three paces north, two west and dig under the pomegrantes for treasure" (which, using my final board shown below should end up in only one spot) and scoring a bonus. Again keeping it random whether it is actually gold or something else, so that gold doesn't become too common. Fairness would also dictate that this would have to show up regardless of whether a person was able to successfully place everything or not, so the final board would have to change to a correctly completed one, otherwise only legs and ults would ever get the chance to find gold.

Would everyone be working from the same set of clues? I am assuming not, since the potential for cheating would be very high then. (A and B don't know how to play but C does and he just tells them the answers, thereby earning them all the cooperation bonus and raising their stats.) Although it could also introduce a very high end level of cooperation, if they had the same board with different clues (A says, "ok I have figured out that bananas cannot be in the two leftmost boxes in row D" and then B says,"my clues say they aren't in the rightmost boxes either." So together they would be able to deduce that the bananas are in the middle.) However, I am not sure what that would entail, how hard it would be to program, nor how easy it would still be to cheat.

Also, I would assume some sort of timer would be required to keep the players at about the same place. I would much rather see this game without a timer, the clues, especially on the harder levels take some time to figure out what they are actually saying, sometimes I need to read it five times before I know what it means.

Clues:
Saying something is immediately above is quite different than saying somewhere above. Do the graphical clues reflect that?

Is there anyway to delete clues once they are completely solved? I usually like to remove them so I don't look at them repeatedly once solved, but maybe in this game where they are frequently reset it wouldn't matter anyway.

Looking at the clues depicted on the sample board, people might think that meant they were consecutively in that order. Using the column clue, MMPP, shown; people might wrongly deduce that it had to be either LLMMPP or MMPPLL instead of possibilities like MLMPPL or LMMPLP or LMMLPP and so forth. People who already play logic puzzles wouldn't have a problem with that but does that fall under the 'external knowledge' category or is that 'in-game learnable?' I certainly wouldn't want the clues to spell everything out, that doesn't make much of a logic puzzle, so there would have to be a balance of clues that mean exactly what they say and ones that could be open to interpretation.

Also, sometimes there is more than one set of clues for a row or column. How is that shown, and does it make it too easy to realize that using the clues together is a good idea? (Sometimes when they are written and a distance away from each other it is not immediately apparent to use them together.) Actually, I think I remember reading somewhere that there was a maximum of one clue per row / column at any given time, am I correct in that?

I played parfait on the rough level using the pirate english clues.
I had a hard time deciphering some of them and since this game would be using similar phrases, I will give my thoughts.
These were some of the clues I recieved:
 
A pirate couldna' keep his enemies closer than the limes in row A!
Upon first reading, I was thinking that it meant the limes were as far away as possible from each other. Then I remembered the saying, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" and realized that meant they were to be touching. I am not sure how many people would figure that out.
 
The pomegranates in row B have the limes blockaded!
Not too bad, this means that the limes are somewhere between the two pomegrantes. Although there will be people that won't figure this out, most will.
 
By the Powers! Row C be a complete fruit salad.
By the Powers! Row F be three sheets into the wind.
I thought these clues both might mean that no two same fruits were touching each other, turned out I was right, but I was not confident until I solved enough other clues to have some in the rows.
 
Brawwwk! All yer pomegranates in row D be found somewhere east of all yer limes, ye lily-livered landlubber!
Not a bad clue, I would suggest putting a compass rose on the board somewhere, though, I know there are a lot of people who confuse east and west (sad as that is.)
 
By Blackbeard's ghost! The mangos in column 3 be grappled, ye lily-livered landlubber!
At first I thought this was a mistake because I was thinking, "grappled to / by what?" Then I realized it meant they were grappled to each other.
 
What in the Seven Seas?! Each pomegranate in column 5 be grappled on the south side of a lime.
This clue could mean the complete opposite just by substituting 'of' with 'by' how well will this translate for those for whom english is not a first language?
 
Bah! Ye won't be finding any lime in column 6 that isn't cuddled up right above a mango, ye son of a biscuit eater!
Gadzooks! The mangos in row A be back to back again' all attackers, ye lily-livered landlubber!
Had to read these a few times to be sure I was right.
 
ye lily-livered landlubber! What in the Seven Seas?! ye son of a biscuit eater! ye scurvy dog! ye scoundrel! ye scallywag!
These were just plain annoying, actually, very annoying.

I did booch once, simply because it didn't "take" when I clicked on limes and I didn't notice it was still on mangoes when I tried to place the limes. Most logic puzzles I have played, it is right click to eliminate and left click to place, so my initial tendancy is to left click on the initial to place it in the block. However, after the first few booches (due to not reading instructions) I was able to adapt to this method so these controls could be added into Nibbler without too much difficulty. From the description I read it sounds like you will be able to cycle through options, this should be helpful as well.
My final board:


Some clues on suicidal:
 
By Blackbeard's ghost! Row E is the same fore to aft as aft to fore.
The seas must be calm, the fruits in row C can see their reflection!
Scuttle that! Ye won't be finding any ____ in row D that isn't cuddled up to the right of a pomegranate!
These actually were pretty good clues, having to work through other clues to be solved, yet pretty clear what they meant. (Aft to fore might be tricky but a pirate working at this level should know that.)

Now, I am not saying these types of clues shouldn't be used, every game has its own language to learn, just that they might need to be looked at to see how much external knowledge would be needed (how universal is it to know what 'three sheets to the wind' would mean and then be able to apply that to the game?)

I also realize that the easier levels have easier clues. The state the obvious "limes are in square D2" should be reserved to only the easiest levels and the frequency of them should be kept at a minimum, I checked out the learning level and most of the clues were like this. Then changing into elimination clues such as, "the mangoes are NOT in square F4" would be appropriate for the next level to help people learn that eliminating possibilities is pretty useful, especially when using sets of clues together.

I didn't see any "either / or" clues or "if / then" clues in any level, they are a nice variety and I would like to see them added to Nibbler, maybe at higher levels, if possible.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 11, 2007 11:13:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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Cooperation:
I am not entirely certain how the cooperation aspect works in a crafting puzzle.


We would have to discuss this if Nibbler were added to YPP. For GameGardens, the players would need to join the table in the lobby. I should be able to have (stupid) bots for those wanting to try cooperative mode but not having enough humans around.

Personally, I would ***really*** like to see foraging turned into something that is a group activity rather than solo plus a lot of foraging alts. Right now, I'm not concerned about how doing the puzzle would effect getting foraged fruits etc. I'm focussed on making an interesting game.

Each player would get a different set of clues, and not see each other's boards. The players would not have to work at the same pace, or take turns (boring), however if one player finishes then nobody can get more cooperation points from that player's clears.

I'm thinking that all the players (minimum 3) at the table would be imagined as being in a circle. You can get cooperation points from the players to your immediate right and left, but not from those farther away. This would minimize people running six clients for awesome scores on *one* of them.

The cooperation comes in when a player gets a new board, and then announces that he knows he can fill row C or row D. One of the other players looks at his board and says "I can fill row D", those two players agree to work on row D, and time things so that they are both down to one placement at the same time. Then one finishes, which triggers that row being marked on the second's board. The second places the finishing fruit, and both players get the bonus.

 
Clues:
Saying something is immediately above is quite different than saying somewhere above. Do the graphical clues reflect that?


Aye, if you look at the clues, some of them have black squiggles between the fruits and some don't. No black squiggle means the fruits have to be immediately adjacent. A black squiggle means that something else may or may not be between.

 
Is there anyway to delete clues once they are completely solved?


I just added that a few hours ago actually. Right click on the clue, and it disappears. Right click again and it pops back.

 
Also, sometimes there is more than one set of clues for a row or column.


For Nibbler, we *want* players to be working with incomplete knowledge. There will never be more than one clue per row or column.

I can add a lobby parameter so that the text translation doesn't have to be Pirate, however I strongly suspect that after a player grasps what the pictures are supposed to mean, the text is only for the fun of seeing the Pirate translations.

The difficulty for Nibbler won't be based on how difficult the clues are. All the boards will get the same type of clues. We may decide to have very difficult levels with fewer than 12 clues.

 
I didn't see any "either / or" clues or "if / then" clues in any level, they are a nice variety and I would like to see them added to Nibbler, maybe at higher levels, if possible.


I can't imagine how to make a picture clue for an either/or or if/then type clue. If you give me samples, maybe I could work this in later.
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 11, 2007 12:14:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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I will start by saying I am not an artist, merely a compiler. This is a collection of game images and clipart that has been edited, cropped, faded, flipped, rotated, tiled, cut, pasted, and whatever else I needed to do to compose the picture. :)

I still need to resize and move things around to get clues to fit in, but the general idea I was going on was:

Each square starts out with all three fruit,
Right clicking on one removes it (right click again brings it back)
Left clicking places it in that location (changing to a larger image with a darker background)
The green square was a booched answer.

Like I said, I am still playing around with it to get things to fit, but I wanted to check to see if this idea was workable. Is it too cluttered and busy? Would it be hard to code? The picture is 450 x 600 (well the picture itself is, I think a column of white got added to one of the edges) which I believe is the size of the current crafting puzzle screens. I have a thought about making a box of column clues and one of row clues instead of shrinking the board. How many clues did you plan on having available? I am sure you have most of your coding done, so I am not sure how easily this could be adapted. (I completely understand if this doesn't work at all.)


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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 12, 2007 10:44:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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If an artist can design something (I can provide tile size specs, and which parts need to be transparent, which opaque) that will fit the board, I can code it. I'm juggling serious size issues, and trying to make the clue images easily readable as well as having the text translation make sense (so the rows and columns have to be marked too).

Anyway....... tada! Nibbler version 1.0 is now up on GameGardens . We will likely find some bugs, and I am positive that we will find things to tweak. This is a single player game - no cooperation. It's rather like alchemy in that you can take a LONG time to finish if you want to be careful. I really need feedback from players who aren't all that great at logic puzzles, about level 1. We can easily give the game harder levels for the experts (fewer clues is the easiest option).

There have been some changes since the wiki, but it's not too horribly far off.

Feedback would be appreciated.

The cooperative version of the game will take some serious thinking. I might be able to get a cooperative against bots version up this weekend - the problem is the detailed score panel, in a multiplayer game. There's a way to just display the scores for that player, but I haven't tackled that code yet (so all scores go into the same pot right now).
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 12, 2007 12:31:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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In my usual day late, dollar short fashion, I managed to come up with a layout and clue system that might work (of course it might not either.)
I figured it was easier for me to make a picture of my ideas instead of trying to explain them.

I used graphics for the clues, using single fruit to represent 'each' and a group to represent 'both.' I also added an outline and shaded background for adjacent objects. I just used the word 'Mixed' for the clues that don't follow the other patterns (could use the fruit bowl graphic.) Here are some sample clues and the basic text translation:


I didn't add numbers to the rows and columns (I forgot) but if they were needed they could be added. The text box doesn't have to be permanently there. (Note: I created the clue sets and the board seperately so they don't actually correlate this is just for visual purposes.)



At any rate, there is my idea of how this could all work graphically, I haven't decided if I think it is too busy or not.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 12, 2007 4:24:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Ok, I have tried playing a few times, but so far I have booched everytime simply because of clicking the wrong button, and my tendancy is once I booch I don't play the rest of the board. I just don't like having a mistake that can't go away. How would allowing a cracker to be able to be used to reset a booched square affect the scoring and gameplay? So if you booch you could put a cracker on the square, you don't get a hint but the square becomes playable again, and of course the multiplier and the board have both been reset, so it couldn't be used to eliminate possibilities.

I do like having the ability to mark a "maybe' and a 'no' (if I can just keep myself from using the left button to do it.)

I've decided that the incomplete nature of the clues satisfies my cravings for the "if / then" and "either / or" clues because those thought processes are already coming in to play.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 12, 2007 6:31:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tcarr

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I'll think about the crackers to heal the holes. It might take two crackers though.

I deleted the old storyboard on the wiki. The new storyboard has no pictures, but does tell the story of one way we might have cooperative puzzling work for Nibbler. I also added a "Metaphor" section, explaining the metaphor for Nibbler with foraging (it's not just "well it uses fruits!"). I would appreciate comments on the storyboard; does it sound interesting/fun?

I'm not sure how many tweaks I'll add before uploading a new version, but one of the ones on my list is to set the "click on a clue to translate it to Pirate English" feature so that it cycles between Pirate English and Standard English. I could put spanish and norwegian in there too, but I doubt it would be appreciated. ;-)
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LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight
[Jan 12, 2007 7:18:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Patetch

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Hmmm...
I just achieved a perfect score, but I am not sure if it was a fluke or not. This was the first time through that I actually played properly (no booching the buttons, remembering that finishing a row / column resets the board, and realizing that it gets reset at 10 moves - I was thinking it was 12 at first.)

With 10 moves the max chain is Vegas^2 (55 points total) and finishing the board with a fill, {single (+10) first time , double (+30) the other three times} without using hints = 320.

I will have to play some more to see how easy that is to repeat, but I think the scoring might need some tweaking. Possibly some bonuses that make you choose which to go for (that is one of the things I am really liking about knightfish - there are so many different ways to get points it is not immediately apparent which is the best strategy.) How about a bonus if you get all of one fruit placed in one round? (I don't think you can do that and get a double fill, at least not easily.) Maybe have a random pattern to match with completed squares (have the pattern displayed somewhere, of course.)

I know the cooperative bonus would also come into play and that will change the dynamics some. I am curious, will it be set up so that the scoring potential is higher if played cooperatively rather than solo? Or will there be a way to balance it out? It would certainly encourage social play if that was the only way to get incredible but I can see that being frustrating too. It even opens the door up for sabotage if people purposely play and quit early to prevent you from being able to get the bonus.

I suppose the gems and the difficulty scaling will make a difference as well.

The metaphor makes sense and the storyboard explains how the cooperation might work, but I still am not convinced. I think time is a big factor here, I know I take a long time to play simply because I am being thourough but I can see that driving other people nuts while waiting, and I can't imagine playing with impatient people would be fun (think blockade - "when do I get paid?" that we used to be subject to.) It also seems like it would still be pretty easy to multi-client (well not easy on the brain maybe but still doable.) What happens when somone logs off? If there were 3 players that earned 30 points, and one logged off, would the remaining two get 10 points or 15?

I do want to see a cooperative game, I think that would be interesting and unique, but I think it might have to be one that takes less time to finish. I will keep an open mind, maybe I will be convinced as it develops further.
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Pletoo of Sage
[Jan 12, 2007 11:35:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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