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Soar

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Ramming Damage Reply to this Post
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Ahoy Mates!

This weekend some very intensive testing of ramming damage was carried out in order to have the numbers correct for the coming QuarterMaster 1.7A update, which includes a sea battle damage simulator.

I was allowed to join the crew Moonlit Wake on Midnight and with the assistance of Feylind we tested and recorded ramming damage in over 30 staged battles and hundreds of collisions involving ships of all sizes.

We used a vessel hit point system as our base. The system used double the numbers recorded on most wiki pages as this allowed us to do away with most on all fractions.

The results are as follows:

[SHIP HIT POINTS (SF/SINK)]
Slp = 12 / 20
Ctr = 14.4 / 24
MB = 24 / 40
WB = 30 / 50
MG = 36 / 60
WF = 60 / 100
GF = 72 / 120

[CANNONBALL DMG] (from Wiki, not tested by us)
Sml = 2
Med = 3
Lrg = 4

[RAMMING DAMGE]
Slp Ram = 1
Ctr Ram = 1
MB Ram = 2
WB Ram = 4
MG Ram = 5
WF Ram = 6
GF Ram = 8

[NOTES]
* Rock damage = 5% of ships HP, or 3 blocks regardless of vessel size.
* We tested many ramming patterns with various ship sizes, including turning, turning into each other, head to head, T-junction, and head to head with both ships moving forward and found no effect on damage in all circumstances.
* Size difference between opponents also made no difference. Although the number of blocks is relative to the ships hit points.
* The PP client uses correct fractions when calculating the number of blocks required. For example 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 (not 0.9999999).
* When recording the number of rams you need to be very carefull about double rams caused by wind moving the vessels after they have already moved. The collision sound usually will not play for these rams, but the damage will be applied.

A few surprises there. Especially with regards to cutters. When we found they shared the same ram damage as sloops I thought we had made a mistake, but we double checked with further tests and were able to confirm it. Also with regards to their hit points, the data in tests all points to maxing at 14.4 damage and sinking at 24, but this is practically an irrelevant difference to the old data. GF kick butt in rams though.

Thank you to Feylind, Blackfeltch and Moonlit Wake, who all collaborated in finding this data.

EDIT: Has someone already collected the data concerning shunting rules (big ships pushing little ships when ramming)? Due to the number and variety of tests we did, we were pretty much able to learn how this system works, so if it hasn't been recorded yet we definitly can contribute some important aspects.

Arbedar!
Tailspin
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Soar at Jul 22, 2006 11:56:29 PM]
[Jul 22, 2006 11:35:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TheBeaver

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Re: Ramming Damage Reply to this Post
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We love you.
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[Jul 23, 2006 6:47:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Barrister

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Re: Ramming Damage Reply to this Post
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Has someone already collected the data concerning shunting rules (big ships pushing little ships when ramming)? Due to the number and variety of tests we did, we were pretty much able to learn how this system works, so if it hasn't been recorded yet we definitly can contribute some important aspects.


I know that some shunting research was done and the results posted on the forums. However, a comprehensive description would be great, if you have the time and energy.
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Barrister
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[Jul 23, 2006 3:52:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Soar

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Re: Ramming Damage Reply to this Post
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Has someone already collected the data concerning shunting rules (big ships pushing little ships when ramming)? Due to the number and variety of tests we did, we were pretty much able to learn how this system works, so if it hasn't been recorded yet we definitly can contribute some important aspects.


I know that some shunting research was done and the results posted on the forums. However, a comprehensive description would be great, if you have the time and energy.


Shunting looks to be pretty definable using some basic principles. Although I'm not certain what the results of each collision pattern would be, I can list what the basic principles I witnessed were. Hopefully someone else will be able to use these to launch a dedicated round of tests.

- The ship size matters. Big ships movement tokens are more powerful than smaller ships.
- The forward movement token is more powerful than the two turning tokens. Same size ships can shunt each other using forward movement tokens, but not turning tokens. The pushing ship will be deflected back to its original square though.
- Larger ships using forward tokens will shunt the smaller vessel and will not be deflected back. They will travel forward to where the smaller ship used to be. I am not sure but I think that turning tokens will cause the larger ship to be deflected.
- I noticed three vessel sizes, which correspond to the CB sizes used by the ships. I did not see enough info on the GF to know if it is a 4th size or not. It could be. Cutter and sloop are definitely ranked as the same size.
- It is very likely that the orientation of the ship getting hit will effect if it gets shunted or not. For example a sloop may be able to resist a WB forward ram if it has its bow facing the on coming WB. I am sure I saw examples of this but did not stop to record it in detail.

That's all I'm really confident to post from memory without getting into too much guesswork. It's not a complete set of rules but I think it would be a good starting base for someone to lay down a testing plan with.

Arbedar!
Tailspin
[Jul 25, 2006 10:53:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
IantheKorean

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Re: Ramming Damage Reply to this Post
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I am not sure but I think that turning tokens will cause the larger ship to be deflected.


Aye, Ptolemy and myself tried this with a sloop and a grand frig at the winter solstice blockade. Sloop moving forward shunted the grand frig making a turn. Kind of ridiculous, but it worked.
[Jul 26, 2006 12:23:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Blackfletch

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Re: Ramming Damage Reply to this Post
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I know that SBL (Sailerboylee) did a lot of testing on how shunting and collisions work. I'm guessing he can help with that.

Tailspin and I did a little more testing, and found a couple more pieces of info last night.

First, despite my being convinced that cutters have 15/25 "hit points" for max SF / sinking as we've always thought (if you consider small shot to deal 2 dmg), I've now been convinced that it's 14.4 / 24. This means it takes 7.2 small shot to max a cutter, not 7.5 as we've always thought. There's little practical difference, but it does affect the math for programs like QM.

Second, we believe the devs took a shortcut on programming moves which results in the rare case of extra ram damage happening. That shortcut is that ships of the largest size class move before ships of the next largest, which move before the smallest size class ships. Within a size class, all ships move simultaneously. So, if two cutters are facing each other, with one empty square between them, they'll move forward simultaneously, bounce, and both stay where they were. But if a brig and a sloop do that, the brig moves first, taking the empty square, then the sloop bounces off the brig. If there isn't an empty square, though, and both place a forward token, the brig will ram the sloop, then the sloop will ram the brig, dealing 2 collisions worth of damage to each ship, whereas if the ships were the same size, it would be a single collision. Thus, in this case, a war brig will deal more damage to a war frigate than a second war frigate would. Of course, said war brig would also be in a heck of a lot of pain.... =)

We still have a couple of "outlying" data points which don't fit with the model Tailspin posted up above, and are trying to work out why they don't fit, so don't be too surprised if further changes come along, but the basic system appears to be solid.
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Blackfletch

How many small shot does it take to sink a Grand Frigate? One.
[Jul 26, 2006 11:47:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.seraphsnightmare.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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Re: Ramming Damage Reply to this Post
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If you're in to testing this stuff out, read this thread:

http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=33554&offset=30

...and find some other excuse for the behaviour they found other than ship age, which still doesn't seem "right" to me.
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I did it.
clarify
It was me.

[Jul 27, 2006 7:07:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Blackfletch

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Re: Ramming Damage Reply to this Post
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Read it back then, re-read it just now.

Age makes as much sense as anything else I can come up with. I'd say it's more an effect of "ship # in database" rather than consciously making a decision to decide something based on when the ship was created, but, meh.

/me contemplates hax0ring in to OOO to look at the actual collision source code, thinks about it a bit longer, huggles Liz, and goes back to reverse-engineering. =)

As of yesterday, I'm now completely convinced that the system Tailspin posted in the OP is correct, and will be making some edits to the Wiki later today (assuming the boss doesn't insist I do "real" work). We have a few test cases that still don't work, but I'm now convinced that they're the result of rounding error, as the final "key" in the puzzle was realizing that different ship classes can double-bump, while same-class ships single-bump (and thanks for the linky to that thread, as it means I don't have to go test whether a GF is its' own class or lumped in with frigates, 'cause I trust JtB).

If anyone wants to look at our raw test data, I'll be more than happy to send it out, and/or try to explain anyone else's test data.
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Blackfletch

How many small shot does it take to sink a Grand Frigate? One.
[Jul 27, 2006 11:44:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.seraphsnightmare.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
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