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Forums » List all forums » Forum: Piratical Parley and Politics » Thread: A question of diplomacy. |
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Thread Status: Normal Total posts in this thread: 57
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Tee_Beard
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Had a nice /tell conversation between me and a monarch of a flag that'll, for now, remain nameless. A bit of history for you lot: For the past couple of days, I've had some trouble with someone we shall call, for now, Offending Pirate. I've heard bad things from one of the people I usually hang around with, but other than that, I decided to reserve my judgement until I met the guy. Nonetheless, things didn't go too well, as you can see from the conversation below, as I referred to what he did (roughly). As a result, I /muted the fellow, and decided to bring my issue to the monarch of his flag, who was also his captain. The following conversation was taken from my logs, and has been edited to remove sensitive and inappropriate information. As a result, it is no longer a literal record of events that have happened. Treat it as such.
Now. Just want a few opinions from the diplomacy-masters of this board: Did I do the right thing? Were my responses fair, and was my complaint reasonable? Have I, in bringing this to a public forum, booched something in the social puzzle? How would you deal with such a situation, were it to come to pass and you were monarch of yer own flag? Does the "we're pirates" argument hold, and if not, why not? ---------------------------------------- Thesis Its kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon. |
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garf
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the "we're pirates" argument never holds. if you want "realistic" piratical behaviour to be justified, i want "realistic" methods to deal with it and be able to finally terminate annoying pirate existances by cutting their playmobile head off, so they can never bother me again. edit: as for real life threats, thats a very clear violation of the TOS and in my eyes pretty banworthy. /complain him, should he ever do it again. ---------------------------------------- - Randal [size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others |
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Squidbeard
Joined: Jul 2, 2003 Posts: 1107 Status: Offline |
Do ye think she means you and me, Hom? Regardless -- I have an opinion, and the invite is vague enough that I'll wade in. Ye did what ye're supposed to do: talk to the offender, and then to his higher-ups. Since it seems like that bunch has decided to be that kind of flag, there's little more to do except write down their names and make sure they're first to the bottom of the harbor when the cannonballs start flying. And I'm with Garf: out-of-character threats are a big, big no-no. Next time he does it, /crucify him. I'm looking forward to a new "my little brother did it" episode for the New Year. ---------------------------------------- Squid High Priest, Cult of the Red Mantis |
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Drabillord
Joined: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 1019 Status: Offline |
i think that would be an excellent feature- after a player has been /complained or blackspotted..instead of banning them right off, we can sick Garf on them first and after he wins the swordfight they get banned. I think you should just dig up the chatlogs of what that player said and get him in trouble right now(especially if its ban worthy) instead of waiting for the next time before that player causes more grief for other players. And that monarch is dissapointing. |
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Tee_Beard
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On defense of the Offending Pirate, his hostile reaction was not unexpected -- it was almost certain that he entered a rather hostile enviroment to begin with. Despite my decision to not judge the guy based on what I've heard of him, I admit I felt some hostility towards him. Whether his reaction to my perceived hostility is warranted, I leave to the other members of the circle who were with me to decide. And Squid, I didn't talk to him about his behaviour as such -- I did, however, mute him, because I felt that he was getting belligerent. I've had a member of another flag swear that if the two of them stumbled upon each other again, blackspots were going to be applied. And yes, the monarch reaction was disappointing, even factoring my bias against the offender. I'm no monarch, but someone like the offending pirate wouldn't be considered an asset at all to a flag. On the contrary; my opinion would be that anyone with "zeal" like that is a liability. ---------------------------------------- Thesis Its kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon. |
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Smurrf
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I would be severely disappointed if I found out that my monarch or captain took this kind of attitude towards ANY pirate who had a complaint against any of our people. Especially if you could provide chat logs of what was said...I can almost understand if there's a problem with two pirates being equally hostile to each other, but...this goes beyond the pale in my eyes. At the very least, said monarch should have promised to look into the matter. That just goes with the territory. The pirate's action was bad enough. For his monarch AND captain to simply brush aside your concerns over his pirate...he's not worthy of the title if that be the case. (And by the way...who here hasn't heard of you? :) ---------------------------------------- Hermit Smurrf |
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Tee_Beard
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Heh. That's kind of funny. But take a look at my /who page. It's not remarkable, in any sense -- I'm an officer (albeit in the position of Ambassador) in a small flag. Anyone who doesn't visit the forums won't know who I am. ---------------------------------------- Thesis Its kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon. |
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Demeter
OceanMaster Joined: Sep 6, 2003 Posts: 3660 Status: Offline |
In matters like real-life threats, please submit a complaint immediately. Any actions should be done as soon as possible as only a few minutes' worth of chat is sent to us - delay and we will just receive a blank report, or one full of discussion about how naughty Badpiratename was and how someone should complain... We cannot act upon chatlogs - the only way we can apply any form of disciplinary actions is if you use /complain or /blackspot to submit an offense at the time it happens. ---------------------------------------- "Demeter is sneeeaky." Trickykid Avatar by Greylady |
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Dylan
Joined: Jul 21, 2003 Posts: 10005 Status: Offline |
/blackspot doesn't seem to work - not that I have tried it VERY recently, but it gave a message about the crew not being able to do so yet. Dylan |
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Tee_Beard
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Got to remember that. Hmm. Addendum: And I wanted to add something: the Offending Pirate didn't directly threaten anyone as much as creep everyone out with his... well, with his 'boasting'. What would the devs consider a good guideline for /blackspot and /complain, by the way? ---------------------------------------- Thesis Its kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon. |
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atteSmythe
Joined: Jul 28, 2003 Posts: 8052 Status: Offline |
IANAD, but my personal criteria goes something like this: Is this person clearly violating the TOS? Do I wish to take an action that might result in this person no longer being able to play? In short, is this the type of person that I do not want to be playing the same game as me? /complain Is this person ruining a good time through deeds or misdeeds, ignoring /tells to please stop? Has the person swindled, lied, or cheated, but not in any game-breaking or TOS-breaking sense? /blackspot atteSmythe, who's yet to deal the dread spot, but only because, unlike /complain, /blackspot must be done to someone in the same locale ----------------------------------------
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BonnyRambler
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Ahoy Mates! Not wanting to have my Flag and Crew besmirched by crusty innuendos by dock tarts, I'd like to step forward and own up to the title of disappointing monarch. Although I am honored to be the subject of this all-star forum, please allow me to address your concerns regarding my SO and prince as openly as I am able. The offending pirate is Midnight. In real life, he's a Maori warrior. He stands 7'3" tall. He's tattooed, with scars and wounds and a whole lot of exciting stories. He's violent and aggressive and a bad guy all around. Is any of that true? Who cares! It's a game, and it makes good game chat. If it offends you, don't listen. This is not a threat to an individual - it's the pirate he has built. I do not think he "threatened" Thesis out of game. I think he talks the same game talk he's done since Azure, and Thesis was looking for something to blow out of proportion. She was predisposed to do so by her own admission. Nonetheless, I warned him to stop threatening the town women. I will not drum members of my Flag out on the word of an officer in a "small" crew who threatens me with how "a large flag" will react to my people. Who are you, little lass, to tell me how to run my business or to suggest how others might react to us? You do not know who our friends are, nor do I need to hint at allegiances to give strength to my words. I was polite - don't take that as an admission of guilt. Bring your chat records to me next time and I'll act as if you had a complaint. What you said means nothing other than I should investigate a little further. I did. And to all who feel that piratey behavior is not a good way to play Puzzle "Pirates" - what can I say? I don't know what you are doing here! Maybe you should join Puzzle Country Club? [size=18]BonnyRambler Captain of The Legends Queen of the Flag of Midnight [size=18]sometimes captain - sometimes queen - always pirate [size=18][size=18] |
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homullus
Joined: Dec 10, 2002 Posts: 8824 Status: Offline |
I think Monarch's responsibility would have been more limited had Monarch also not been Captain. Is it actually the Monarch's (or even Captain's) job to police the behavior of those "under" them? In real life, yes of course, but here, where due to time zones it might actually be impossible to ever arrange a real-life (or at least real-time) conversation with the principals in the dispute? I think that's up to the flag. The more you care about your image, the more you'll dictate acceptable and unacceptable behavior . . . keep in mind this could (and probably does) go unpleasantly too far in the other direction, where a crew or flag places extreme restrictions on behavior in-game (no Out-Of-Character speech, etc.). I would never use the "we're pirates" line, or any other role-playing "defense." It's one thing to have a game persona -- however villainous -- and then be willing to drop it at a moment's notice to make it clear that's what it is, and that you can be reasonable, and that it is meant to be fun for ALL involved; it's another thing to actually BE a real-life ass in the comfort of anonymity and then CLAIM you're playing a role. So, the excuse was no good . .. . [size=24]BUT (I like big "buts") I don't know that I would expect the monarch to march off and execute the offender in a righteous fury either, even on the say-so of Thesis, who would actually have some credibility to lose by lying. So, while I didn't agree with the excuse, my own reaction in a similar (hypothetical) case may well be almost as unsatisfactory: I'd do more than "note" the concern, but I wouldn't promise icy death from bloody stumps (or anything close) until I had a chance to hear the other side of the story. As far as the way to approach it, that was the way I'd expect it and WANT it to go -- but only because Monarch was also Captain, and captain is the person who can kick somebody out of the crew. Nothing screams "I have a poorly-hidden agenda" like going straight to the top, and in this case, monarchs have little authority over their captains anyway, so the captain would have the final say in any case (if you don't believe me, think about it . . . crews are in much higher demand, and one that leaves over a disagreement will have no shortage of offers from other flags, so the monarch has very little leverage). In a game where all we have is words, respectful dissent is always the best starting point. |
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atteSmythe
Joined: Jul 28, 2003 Posts: 8052 Status: Offline |
What Hom said. I've been trying to figure out how to say exactly that all morning. And for the response - I believe you're trying to stay in character here, when someone's made it clear that they were made to feal uneasy in a real-life way. The mask has to drop sometime. I'll also note that the only insults (unless you count a single use of the word 'disappointing') appeared in your reply, Bonnyrambler. Diplomacy, indeed. atteSmythe, who's been in Bonnyrambler's position, but substitute 'royalty' for 'monarch' ----------------------------------------
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Matthias
Joined: Jul 27, 2003 Posts: 3303 Status: Offline |
Well, if we're going to start pulling names out, I have to say that Offending Pirate was really a bit dodgy, but not exactly /complain worthy. I've been far worse, but only within me crew where they have prior warning. Was I there for that, Thesis? Can't quite remember. Matt ---------------------------------------- I took my own advice. |
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Jothmar
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Having been in the possition of the Monarch I have to say that I reacted very differently to a complaint against a member of my flag. I took the complaint very seriously and would have asked for chat log or tryed to confirm that my flag member acted as accused. I do -not- want people who offend or scare (IRL) other players in the game. In my circumstance it was use of racial slurs and continued insults against a woman who said she was asian. As it turned out the offender wasn't in my flag so in the end I didn't have to do anything about it. . . but until I figured that out I took the complaint very seriously. Heck even after I figured it out I took the complaint seriously as far as the person complaining to me was concerned. In diplomacy even if you don't care you should act like you do. . . it makes them happy and the more people like you the less likely you are to go to war. I would suggest for the future, even if you don't really care at least -act- like you do. ---------------------------------------- Kelyon Hawk of Fidelis Bellum |
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Drabillord
Joined: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 1019 Status: Offline |
And I think its more dissapointing to see how you lashed out at Thesis, Bonny. In my view...leaders should be more considerate of words they use and how others think of them. I understand it can be fustrating; i've had issues with two pirates i had to deal with last week. But I would not dismiss the complainer up front, even though I already had an inkling of what was going on and it was only one pirates fault. By Saying "we're pirates, its what we do" its almost like saying "i dont really care what your saying, i'll just ignore you". Even if you dont mean that, that is what it may come accross as. Oh, Calling Thesis a Dock Tart in your post, in my opinion, is completely out of line and you should be more considerate in the future. But thats just me and I am excessively nice sometimes. EDIT: Dang ye keylon!!! 1 minute!! |
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jhenigin
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There has been alot of replys about what is an apropriate zing between pirates and what is harrasment. I dont think that discussion will go anywhere without details of the context. If possible can we see the log of the actual event in question? |
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HoneyHi
Joined: Sep 30, 2003 Posts: 13 Status: Offline |
I must say that Midnight is a rowdy pirate ? that is what I love most about him. He brings a degree of ?protector? to our crew. He is a sweetheart once you get past that hard outer shell?? I am concerned with the fact that not all of what appears to have happened is represented here. By her own admission Thesis states: On defense of the Offending Pirate, his hostile reaction was not unexpected -- it was almost certain that he entered a rather hostile enviroment to begin with. Despite my decision to not judge the guy based on what I've heard of him, I admit I felt some hostility towards him. Whether his reaction to my perceived hostility is warranted, I leave to the other members of the circle who were with me to decide. Thesis also states: Addendum: And I wanted to add something: the Offending Pirate didn't directly threaten anyone as much as creep everyone out with his... well, with his 'boasting'. For someone to react to hostility with hostility is quite common I believe??. I would be most interested in knowing what prompted him to react to you in this manner?.. The omission of the whole story makes me quite suspicious of your motives. Upon checking your stats Thesis, I have come to the conclusion that you spend far too much time chatting and not nearly enough on honing your pirate skills. To misquote a Tom Hanks character in a favorite movie of mine, all I have to say about this whole silly ordeal is: ?Are you crying ? Are you crying ? There?s no crying in Puzzle Pirates??.? |
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HoneyHi
Joined: Sep 30, 2003 Posts: 13 Status: Offline |
Ooops.... Previous reply posted by Luna Senior Officer The Legends Princess of the flag Of Midnight Purser/Money Wench |
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garf
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unless i get to, as demanded before, treat you like real pirates were treated, it's you who's in the wrong game. please go beam back to piratey age and see how real pirates take your .. attitude. im very sure that the ringers have a very clear opinion about whose side in this thread is in the right game and who is not. ---------------------------------------- - Randal [size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others |
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Drabillord
Joined: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 1019 Status: Offline |
some people play the game for the social aspect..this is what they enjoy, and when a player seems to do something seemingly out of line within chat, it brings up worries like this. I think if i were to go up to a group of poeple and say "I"m a scary person in real life" someone would be concerned. Midnight should not say those things to people he does not know. Insulting thesis over her stats is a pointless waste of typing. |
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Raerlynn
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And in defense of Thesis, I think she went to softly. My reply to that is immediat /complain, followed by a /tell to the monarch about what happened, and another /tell to my monarch that this person is marked for messy PVP death. That isn't funny or even acceptable in any sense of the term. The "We're pirates" line of logic doesn't hold up at all. As far as HoneyHi is concerned, who gives a barnacle out of next Wednesday about her pirate stats? Huh? Is the message your sending that its okay to disregard low stat players? That legendaries and Top 10 rankers can get away with murder? Not a chance mate. This is a serious matter, and Offending Pirate should count himself lucky for being able to continue his time here. Though with incidents like this, I've no doubt the mighty BanHammer of Flaming Doom will smite him soon enough. ---------------------------------------- My page about me. I suffer fools all day long as part of my job. I make fools suffer me as part of my fun. |
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atteSmythe
Joined: Jul 28, 2003 Posts: 8052 Status: Offline |
To make an attempt to take your flag out of the defensive... I don't think anyone here is making judgements. It's more of a "if things happened as you say they did, and if something like that had happened to me, this is what I would've done." Frankly, I've learned more from the replies than the initial post. Especially since the initial post didn't name any names, and was more of a 'what would you have done, given this situation.' Now, I don't know what it is. But I do know it's more interesting. Edit: Oh, hell, they're making judgements now. Post preserved for posterity. atteSmythe, sittin' back and watchin' the show ----------------------------------------
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lilangelli
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Having read the above comments from his crew members, how can this flag NOT be on the defensive? I'm assuming that they mean to swagger about offending people because they want to provoke hostility, as that is the only reasonable explanation for their behaviour. Why else would they move the situation out of the realm of the hypothetical?
The odd thing here is, no one ever would have known who was being discussed... unless they had witnessed the same behaviour from the same individual. I think it's telling that his own monarch assumed everyone knew who he was. This is a sign that either: A) She has a very inflated opinion of his reputation (note the name of the flag and the name of the Offending Pirate) and/or B) She's had a lot of reports of him acting this way |
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BonnyRambler
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I believe that the greatest insult came at the speed in which the lass drug her complaint to the forum. How dare she make noise like I have a crew member that should be removed from the game due to his threatening conduct and then - when she hears the "hear! hear!" come from this fine forum - say it's probably not as bad as she was making it. No harm, dear Thesis, eh? Just doing yer job, eh? You're as innocent as the new driven snow - only concerned about how my crew will be perceived by other players. How kind of you! And what about Midnight? His crime was what? He talked to her on the dock and she had to mute him? Wow! A trouble maker or a guy that talks smacks on the dock - and we thing who should get the boot? Read the conversation we had. What would you have had me say? Was there smoke I should have been blowing that I missed? Obviously, the truth wasn't the answer. I said - and did - talk to him. No other action was warranted. The complaint was bogus. [size=18]BonnyRambler Captain of The Legends Queen of the Flag of Midnight [size=18]sometimes captain - sometimes queen - always pirate |
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Drabillord
Joined: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 1019 Status: Offline |
/me refers back to Atte's post... There was no reference to you at all at the beginning. She was merely asking was what she did right and people gave their input because she was unsure of it. She did not do it to attack your crew/flag at all..god knows i had no idea who it was talking about nor would anyone ever had except for maybe the people who were in that circle for that conversation. In fact...the only insult that came from all of this (to start with) was from me...and that was because of the "we're pirates" remark. And my answer wouldve been the same had it turned out to be Pennsuedo as the monarch in question. In fact...thesis made no noise about your crew, and most people here responded as thesis woudl have wished. Do I regret the comments I made about you/your flag/crewmates? No. I think your behavior here deserves it. /me thinks he has done enough damage to himself and will refrain from posting in this thread anymore after this point. |
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CustardBoy
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There are no ranks in diplomacy or the social aspect. There is no "Right" thing to do in this game. Everyone chooses to act how they like. To bring up this private matter- which the participants you so cleverly censored would immediately know who they are and would have to indirectly take this kind of guff, is completely outside the game and unneeded. There is no grading for how you deal with monarchs, there is no right way to proceed in negotiations. If you don't like the flag, beat 'em up when Flag Wars come. Until then, don't try to deface them as only they will understand the subtext. Actually, now that they've revealed themselves, I guess everyone knows. The only one allowed to defend himself is the offender in question. I shall disregard others speaking on behalf of these people. Let them fight their own battles, I say. On a lighter note, I agree that 'we are pirates' argument doesn't hold. People act like jackasses because they know there's no real way for others to hurt them in this game. In real life, if you piss someone off enough, they'll hit you. Here, they can challenge you to a swordfight. So no, this game is far from realism, so it's all about adapting into the given environment. If you can't adapt and still persist with the realist notion, then... well, you'll most likely have a little mute symbol on your face from all the people you talk to. ---------------------------------------- The Manipulator |
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Crystyn
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/me sits back and watches the show ---------------------------------------- Senior Officer of Easily Distracted and all around happy-go-lucky Wench :-) |
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Headstone
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Nice to know that Midnight is up to his usual form, and as usual, Bonny does nothing about it. "We're pirates. It's our job." What a crock. ---------------------------------------- Always remember this: It's just a GAME!!!!!!! |
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