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dime



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Messy Logs Reply to this Post
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I was wondering if in the full screen chat history, and also the actual logs, if we could use the term "crews", "chats" or something similar instead of "says" from the crew chat.

I hate not being able to tell where things are coming from while in full screen mode for meetings or when reading logs.

edit: snipped out the gibberish..
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by dime at Dec 22, 2003 11:27:14 AM]
[Dec 22, 2003 11:27:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tee_Beard



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Work and Y!PP don't mix, David =)
----------------------------------------
Thesis
It’s kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon.
[Dec 22, 2003 11:56:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ekerin

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More of a technical question, but you have a crosslinked sectors, run scandisk, or whatever disk scan your OS may have. That should clear it up, sometimes....
----------------------------------------
Hack - I don't even play poker now...
Bootseg.com
[Dec 22, 2003 12:36:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.bootseg.com [Link]  Go to top 
Sugarpie



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my problem is that all my clients log to the same chat log, same with each character on each account. When I have 2+ running at once, I get 2+ crew chat logs, lol, its funny to see stuff in triplicate :)
----------------------------------------
Sugarpie
The Violet (er... Violent?) Pirate
Member of Black Death
Former Governor of Orca
Piggy Josiah R.I.P.

[Dec 22, 2003 1:08:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dime



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Yeah.. Perhaps another nice logging feature might be to seperate logs with character names as well..

Instead of just one large 20 meg ypp.log file, I could have ypp-David.log, ypp-SecretAlt.log and ypp-Cleaver.log.


As for the gibberish, I suspect that it probably has something to do with the file being open for logging when my computer crashes and a bunch of stuff just gets dumped in. Although even if this were the cause, running scans on the harddrive after the reboot doesn't fix it because I do that already.
[Dec 22, 2003 1:30:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kendaer



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dime wrote: 
Yeah.. Perhaps another nice logging feature might be to seperate logs with character names as well..


Actually what I'd love to see is 'replaceable tokens' in the chat log name.
%n for pirate name, %y for year, %d for day, %m for month, maybe a couple of others.
That way I could organize my logs effiecient without having to go in and manually change it constantly. I'd set the string with expansions once and it'd always be right.
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Moonchilde
Ex-Captain of Innocent, Buckler of Swashes and all around Gentleman Pirate
[Dec 23, 2003 4:32:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.allbutmalice.org    jttraub@yahoo.com    Kendaer [Link]  Go to top 
Silverstar

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dime wrote: 
As for the gibberish, I suspect that it probably has something to do with the file being open for logging when my computer crashes and a bunch of stuff just gets dumped in.


It's more a case of the file is open, and the system has marked it as using certain locations on the disk, but the data hasn't actually been written yet, so you're seeing whatever was there before.
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Silvermoon, First Mate, Silver Dragon Trading Company
Silverstar, Instructor, Puzzle Pirates Academy (retired)
[Dec 23, 2003 4:54:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/chirik    Chirik    yppSilvermoon [Link]  Go to top 
Vexorg

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Of course, if we wanted to really get fancy with the chatlogs, just do XML, and have all the flexibility you'd ever need. I imagine that in Java, that would be far easier said than done

-Vexorg (.NET addict)
----------------------------------------
Vexorg: Apparently still in some crew somewhere, Midnight
(May actually exist)
Yee: No, it's not a breakfast cereal.
AtteSmythe wrote: 
Mmm, community-built hype. Better than the real thing, with less work!

[Dec 23, 2003 5:09:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tee_Beard



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Vexorg wrote: 
Of course, if we wanted to really get fancy with the chatlogs, just do XML, and have all the flexibility you'd ever need. I imagine that in Java, that would be far easier said than done


Really?

Daniel James (Cleaver) wrote: 
Being believers in the power of open source and code reuse, we're making use of a variety of open source libraries for doing things like parsing XML and mapping Java objects to and from relational database tables...


Funny, that.

Edited: Added Vexorg's statement.
----------------------------------------
Thesis
It’s kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon.
[Dec 23, 2003 5:16:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Vexorg

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Curses, booched again.

I guess I'm not too familiar with some of the open-source stuff available. Like I said, I've been brainwashed by MS...

Of course, if that's the case, it shouldn't be too difficult to output the chatlog in XML.
----------------------------------------
Vexorg: Apparently still in some crew somewhere, Midnight
(May actually exist)
Yee: No, it's not a breakfast cereal.
AtteSmythe wrote: 
Mmm, community-built hype. Better than the real thing, with less work!

[Dec 23, 2003 7:01:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
popiel



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Vexorg wrote: 
Of course, if we wanted to really get fancy with the chatlogs, just do XML, and have all the flexibility you'd ever need.


How does putting it in XML help? We'd still need some way to distinguish the different types of chats. Just changing stuff from

Talek says "Oops, no help here...<^_^>"

to

<say pirate="Talek">Oops, no help here... &lt;^_^&gt;</say>

doesn't do a darn thing other than make it 25% larger on disk and harder for a human to read.
----------------------------------------
Talek
Owner of Occam's Razors on Epsilon
Officer in the Roundhouse Rum Runners
[Dec 24, 2003 5:47:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Vexorg

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The suggestion about XML was in response to someone looking for functionality for sorting and organizing logs better. In XML it would be relatively easy to format them for the web (via a Stylesheet), and would have all the sorting and organizing functionality you'd ever need. I imagine were that to be implemented, it would be optional, of course.
----------------------------------------
Vexorg: Apparently still in some crew somewhere, Midnight
(May actually exist)
Yee: No, it's not a breakfast cereal.
AtteSmythe wrote: 
Mmm, community-built hype. Better than the real thing, with less work!

[Dec 24, 2003 6:00:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
54x

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You could also have:

<say method="flagofficer" source="diamondblade">'Hoy you lot!</say>
----------------------------------------
Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
[Dec 24, 2003 6:29:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.mjwhitehead.com/    raasike54    secondlight5454    32987700 [Link]  Go to top 
Tee_Beard



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Vexorg wrote: 
Curses, booched again.

I guess I'm not too familiar with some of the open-source stuff available. Like I said, I've been brainwashed by MS...


Meh. Doesn't matter if you said it or not. I don't care what you use. Do get your sources right, thoughn -- XML is an open standard, which means that generally everyone uses it. Which does mean that platforms Microsoft rarely touch, like Unix and Java and the like have their own libraries.

/e shrugs.
----------------------------------------
Thesis
It’s kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon.
[Dec 24, 2003 8:47:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tee_Beard



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popiel wrote: 
How does putting it in XML help? We'd still need some way to distinguish the different types of chats. Just changing stuff from

Talek says "Oops, no help here...<^_^>"

to

<say pirate="Talek">Oops, no help here... &lt;^_^&gt;</say>

doesn't do a darn thing other than make it 25% larger on disk and harder for a human to read.


There are three ways of storing chatlog information: full-text, full binary (database-style), or some intermediatary level like XML. We've already noted the disadvantages of text based storage, but we don't want our database stored in some proprietary, impossible-to read format. XML offers the advantages of a simple database system (or even a more complex one, but we won't need it in this case), with the robustness of text. Now anyone can write their own tools to collate and rearrange chatlog information so that it looks nice.
----------------------------------------
Thesis
It’s kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon.
[Dec 24, 2003 8:56:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
popiel



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Tee_Beard wrote: 
XML offers the advantages of a simple database system (or even a more complex one, but we won't need it in this case), with the robustness of text.


Actually, XML doesn't offer the main advantage of a database system: random access to arbitrary records without reading (on average) half of the whole thing. But that's irrelevant...

Tee_Beard wrote: 
Now anyone can write their own tools to collate and rearrange chatlog information so that it looks nice.


They could do that already. The chat log is very easily parsed with newline separated records of one of two flavors: a datestamp, or an output line with a prefix timestamp. Very simple to parse with just a couple regular expressions, scanf patterns, or even fixed-width fields + overflow.

The issue is that we're missing data in the log. This could be rectified with a 'method' attribute in XML as Diamondblade suggests, or it could be rectified as easily (and much more concisely without reducing human readability) by sticking in [flagofficer]/[crew]/[broadcast]/[whatever] right after the timestamp, to make it look like this:

[09:18:01] [crew] Talek says, "This is getting silly."

Yes, you can't just use a stylesheet to format this prettily for your web browser... my gosh, we're up to a perl 1-liner. If you want to sort, collate, spindle, or mutilate the log, you can't use just a stylesheet anyway... and we're still at only a few lines of perl.

XML ain't no magic bullet.
----------------------------------------
Talek
Owner of Occam's Razors on Epsilon
Officer in the Roundhouse Rum Runners
[Dec 25, 2003 6:51:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tee_Beard



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Whoever said it was?

I'll let go of the argument, really, because you make pretty much good sense. Besides, we've deviated from the topic so much.

How would you handle, though, multiple clients writing to a single logfile[size=9]*? I think it was made mention earlier in this thread.

[size=9]* [size=9]I know, unlikely. But humor me a little.
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Thesis
It’s kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon.
[Dec 25, 2003 9:20:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
popiel



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Tee_Beard wrote: 
Whoever said it was?

Vexorg wrote: 
just do XML, and have all the flexibility you'd ever need.


Sounds pretty magical to me.

Tee_Beard wrote: 
How would you handle, though, multiple clients writing to a single logfile?


I'd add an option to add another prefix, possibly with different delimiters for easy identification:

[20:03:01] <Talek> [crew] Talek says, "Just another circumlocution."

I wouldn't have it on by default, just because most people wouldn't need it / wouldn't care. (And yes, I know at least two people who often run two clients simultaneously.)
----------------------------------------
Talek
Owner of Occam's Razors on Epsilon
Officer in the Roundhouse Rum Runners
[Dec 25, 2003 12:07:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tee_Beard



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popiel wrote: 
Tee_Beard wrote: 
Whoever said it was?

Vexorg wrote: 
just do XML, and have all the flexibility you'd ever need.


Sounds pretty magical to me.


Yeesh. That's him. Besides, aren't we allowed to change our minds? =)
----------------------------------------
Thesis
It’s kind of funny/sad how I still can find the thing that made me part of Y!PP canon.
[Aug 9, 2005 4:00:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Vexorg

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You're correct that you would most likely have to parse most, if not all of the log to get the data you're looking for, but I'd picture that a logreader program would probably just load the whole thing in up front and go from there. Even if you spend nine hours a day standing on the docks at Alpha and logging all of it, I doubt you're going to have overwhelming amounts of data to deal with. The spiffy searching, filtering and what not would all be handled on a spiffy front end of some sort...

You see, this is how a bunch of programmers tend to come up with a fiendishly complicated solution to a simple problem that may not even need to have been fixed at all. I am reminded of the old quote, "If builders built buildings the way programmers write programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization."
----------------------------------------
Vexorg: Apparently still in some crew somewhere, Midnight
(May actually exist)
Yee: No, it's not a breakfast cereal.
AtteSmythe wrote: 
Mmm, community-built hype. Better than the real thing, with less work!

[Dec 25, 2003 5:26:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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Maybe a better way would be to allow the user to construct his/her own stamping method? Do something similar to mIRC and use a lot of % variables to represent things, then allow the user to construct the stamp in a simple text box.

For example, you could have a list such as:
%d : day (Monday, Tuesday, etc..)
%D : day (01, 02, 15, etc...)
%M : month (January, February, etc..)
%h : hour
%m : minute
%s : second
%a : am/pm
%p : pirate
%c : channel ( crew chat, speak, shout, tell, flag officer chat, etc..)
%t : the text (if used, text is not appended to the end of the stamp)
%% : % (the symbol)

Now everyone can construct whatever method they like best for storing the data. For example, you can make popiel's example [20:03:01] <Talek> [crew] Talek says, "Just another circumlocution." by using the stamp [%h:%m:%s]<%p>[%c], and you can create fancy xml tags like 54x's example <say method="flagofficer" source="diamondblade">'Hoy you lot!</say> by using the stamp <say method="%c" source="%p">%t</say>.

Of course that list is really short, and there can be a LOT of different variables, thus everyone could print their logs in any possible (plain-text) way they could think of.
----------------------------------------
Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Dec 25, 2003 11:32:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
popiel



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Kraken wrote: 
Maybe a better way would be to allow the user to construct his/her own stamping method? Do something similar to mIRC and use a lot of % variables to represent things, then allow the user to construct the stamp in a simple text box.


Echoes of Kendaer...

Kraken wrote: 
...and you can create fancy xml tags like 54x's example <say method="flagofficer" source="diamondblade">'Hoy you lot!</say> by using the stamp <say method="%c" source="%p">%t</say>.


Unfortunately, that doesn't handle the escaping needed for XML... which means that it would be XML up until the point someone said "Hello! </say> my name & lose!"

Ah, well. That's enough necrohippoflagellation for me.
----------------------------------------
Talek
Owner of Occam's Razors on Epsilon
Officer in the Roundhouse Rum Runners
[Dec 26, 2003 2:00:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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True, it wouldn't account for that. But if you're making the chat log in XML, you're probably smart enough to write your own parser to weed out that stuff, and as long as you use obscure tags (ie: not <say></say>) then you probably won't have to worry about much at all.
----------------------------------------
Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Dec 26, 2003 3:31:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ivazquez



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Bump.

My chat log is almost 10 MB in size and when searching for something it becomes horrid to try and find it so custom timestamping would be useful. Yes yes, I know I should rotate, but I don't. So sue me :P
----------------------------------------
Indeed wrote: 
You people are like hare krishnas. What do i have to do , beat you over the head?

[Jul 29, 2004 5:12:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ikajaste

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improving chat logs Reply to this Post
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These two threads are also relevant:

    Feature Request: Multiple chat log files.
    [Request] Improved messages[/list:u:57ad3c1eca]

    Quite frankly, I don't know why Ringers haven't already implemented a better log. Seems like quite a trivial thing to code, really.

    I believe the chat log processing software can and will be written by the community. It's just that currently the chat logs don't provide enough information. What pelople seem to be mostly after is a way of recognizing which character they are playing, and a way of knowing which channel a message was said on.

    I just don't see any trouble in adding that information to the log. If there is a problem, I hope someone will say what it is. Then we can discuss how to solve the problem, not just repeat to ourselves that "yes, we do want this". Or if the problem is beyond our help (a game code related thing), it would be nice to know it too.

    Yeah, it probably benefits only a small amount of people, but it just seems so trivial to implement.
    ----------------------------------------
    - Ilari (Artias of Revontuli, Mignight Ocean)
[Jul 29, 2004 2:54:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://iki.fi/ilari.kajaste [Link]  Go to top 
Schnieder



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ikajaste wrote: 

I believe the chat log processing software can and will be written by the community. It's just that currently the chat logs don't provide enough information.


I agree. I made a simple log parser for the Artemis trial in PERL, but still had to weed out all the jcrew chat on my own. It'd be nice to have a simple C:,J:, or F: preceding any crew, job crew, or flag officer chat messages. Other then that log parsing is simple :P.
[Jul 29, 2004 3:16:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ivazquez



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Schnieder wrote: 
Other then that log parsing is simple :P.

For a single character in a single day on a single ocean, yes. But as soon as you mix in multiple days, characters, or oceans it can all go to hell.
----------------------------------------
Indeed wrote: 
You people are like hare krishnas. What do i have to do , beat you over the head?

[Jul 29, 2004 3:42:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Schnieder



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You could parse through times, and that has been done with IRC. Just look at all the stat generators out there. They increment by day, week, month just by looking at the timestamp. If there are multiple logfiles then as I said, log parsing is simple.


But I agree that there should be a way to change the log file. Even a command would be great. /log filename would work fine a similarly hinted at before and before . and in this thread. It's good to keep bringing it up every so often though.

For the time being we just have to sort our logs ourselves into separate text files ourselves (and not forget to do it for 6 months).
[Jul 30, 2004 1:48:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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bump!

This subject came up again recently, so I guess I'll add some of my comments here too since they really weren't addressed in the thread.

First, regarding earlier comments, I'd rather not see XML formatting, it can be really hard to read. If you want something along those lines, I would rather see YAML or JSON. I think they make a better compromise between being easily readable by humans, parsable by simple tools and flexible enough to handle anything.

Some of the channels you can determine by parsing the record for things like "<name> flag officer chats, ", but others can not be distinguished. For example, typing "/me forced Cleaver to walk the plank." will show up in the log exactly as if I actually forced someone to walk the plank. This messes up my log parsing scripts, and I suspect things like Quartermaster.

An unambiguous way of determining multi-line chats would be nice too. The rants that the bots on the cursed isles messed up my scripts also. I've added some code that correctly determines which lines have an embedded newline that gets it right about 99% of the time, but it is a pain.

Putting the channel tag on the very end of the line instead of right after the timestamp might break fewer scripts, but either place would work for me.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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