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funnybones

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Re: Ship discussion Reply to this Post
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BehindCurtai wrote: 
It would be explicitly for duty bakeoff contests.


Why not make it a big floating house instead? It'd have a sloop little image, but onboard it'd be a house scene with fancy stuff and whatnot.
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[Aug 3, 2005 2:46:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
panther0187



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ok first of all i soo wish that the CO could lock the games on cutters and hire or that once deported they were in accessable (perhaps a message like "arr ye be here to pillage and plunder, not be a drunk ye lubber ... get to work!) ...

now i also saw that this is a place to discuss ship design idears here's one that sound fun.


ship design.. ok how about a dreadnaught battle ship (bigger thatn a GF)

estimated build=
3500 wood
2000 iron
1500 sail cloth

labor estimate (really just a guess)
2500 hrs basic
1250 hrs skilled
1000 hrs expert

estimated cost (to build) give or take 200k
estimated cost (to sell) give or take 450k

could proly hold - 400 pirates (perfect for blockade afterparty)

station ideas ( this may require the first quradifloored ship=) )

sails 48
carp 30
blige 18
guns 10 (to be fired for the first time in sets of 3 =)
crows nests 3

storage capasity - lets conservitivley say 1.5 million kilograms

damage and sinking resistance (sf/sink)
small cb-50/100
med cb-34.5/80
large cb-20/32

could this be done? would the OM's allow it? maybe if we all petition simulataneously =)

sorry if this is not properly placed, i am still a little forum illiterate...

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[Sep 24, 2005 4:31:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DubRub



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You still need to find a use for the ship. It is hard enough to pack a GF full of pirates for a pillage and its use in blockades have been debated which generally ends in favour of multiple warfrigates. Other than acting as a vanity item, it's hard to see why a new ship class needs to be created, especially one larger than a GF.

If people start using GFs more regularly and actually have a need for ships of a bigger class to allow more people in one ship, then your idea might have some merit.
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[Sep 24, 2005 7:36:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ianargent

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Back to cutters - my biggest problem with cutters is that they have a hard time dealing with a vessel 1 "class" above them, while a vessel 2 "classes" above them absolutely kicks the tar out of them.

I've taken out a sloop and faced cutters (fairly easy) and Merch Brigs (rough but doable). In a cutter, you face Merch Brigs and War Brigs.

Sloops and cutters are fairly evenly matched - the cutter's higher damage absorption and larger token capacity is matched by the sloop requiring less sailing effort generate tokens and generally faster damage control. The Mrch Brig has a larger cannon and much more damage absorption, but 1 less move and much less damage control - so it's not that hard to avoid for a couple of tunrs, dart in and land one or two shots, and so on.

When you apply this to a cutter though, I find that while the Merch Brig can be dealt with, it's a LOT harder to get rid of damage on the cutter than on a sloop. And it's slightly harder to generate tokens. In short, I find a cutter vs Merch Brig to be somewhat harder than an sllop vs cutter. And then we come to the Cutter vs War Brig. No contest. The double shot capabilites of the war brig beat the TAR out of the cutter - and the extra move you have over it isn't enough.

Please note also that the cutter is the only vessel whose +1 class vessel uses larger shot AND has as many shots as it does (everyone else's +1 class has either the same number of shots or the same size cannonball) and also the only class whose +2 class vessel has BOTH advantages. (OK - barring the War Frigate, a vessel rarely seen outside a blockade). While it has a move advantage over the higher class vessels, it's not enough as the fight goes on, as you will rarely have both the tokens and the opportunity to use all 4 moves.

I'm not entirely sure what the solution could be - giving the cutter doubleshot more or less obsoletes the sloop as a pillage platform, as the cutter can max a sloop in less than a single broadside, while other changes would be too subtle. Perhaps give the cutter doubleshot and make pillaging in a sloop more likely to draw sloops with a few cutters rather than mostly cutters with a few sloops and a sprinkling of MBs? Or bump the # of shots to max a sloop - but that would draw out even longer the sloop on sloop battles.

But I still find it an odd inversion that the "merchant" class vessel of the lower two ships is the larger of the two. It bugs me that the cutter is such an ineffective pillaging platform. It's nice for running bulky commods (as long as you can rope a mate into it) because of the extra hold space and the fact that you get 4 bots with 2 players on board, but it gets badly hurt on any route above green, and takes forever to get the caarp and bilge under control once you do
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[Sep 24, 2005 8:25:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AquaDrake

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The only advantage that I know of on the cutter is the ease of loading guns.

Sloop: 4 small
Cutter: 4 small
MB: 4 medium
WB: 8 medium
MG: 4 large
WF: 8 large

Just looking at that chart of firepower, it sure looks like a cutter could use 8 small offensive firepower. Is that overpowering against a sloop?

FYI, I've managed to max-0 a WF in a navy sloop. Sloops are not underpowered with a good crew. Having recently had problems carping a cutter with multiple excellents/incredibles each league point on a cutter, the same does not apply.

Ted, you improved the carping of merchant ships, and made them usable. You know the internal numbers. Is the cutter's carp ability out of line given the MB revamp?

If 8 shots on a cutter is "too much", how about 6 -- you cannot fire double two moves in a row. After all, graphically the cutter has 6 guns on it, right?
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[Sep 24, 2005 9:37:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
skanzaki



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The forward mounted single heavy cannon dates from the earliest age of gunpowder weapons. This is not the chase armament of the classic age of sail, but a big (32+ pounder, I'd imagine) single cannon used before flintlocks.
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[Nov 16, 2005 1:42:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
skanzaki



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In point of fact, the most common man-of-war in the classical battle of the age, Trafalgar (as well as the Nile) was based on the French designed 74 (named for its 74 guns). We often associate men of war with the British only because they eventually gained naval supremacy and therefore had the vast majority of the men-of-war in the world.

For various reasons, the US did not build as many men-of-war, preferring the 'super-frigates' typified by the USS Constitution.
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[Nov 16, 2005 1:46:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
skanzaki



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I thought it might be time for me to throw my hat into the ring, so to speak, with regards to ship design.

Cat Boat
Sailing stations: 2
Carp stations: 1
Bilge stations: 1
Nav stations: 1
Bots: 2 (maybe even less!)
Guns: here I'd say it's open to debate. I'd like to say 2 or even 1, but I'm not sure how much reprogramming that would entail in the gunning station. In which case, there are equally strong arguments for zero and 4.

Typical Cargo: smaller than a sloop, perhaps 1/2 as much in the extreme
Cost: 3/4 of a sloop or less
Special: Maximum sailing speed over the ocean should be reduced, but the effort required to accelerate and keep this boat at that slower speed should be lower. Token production should be made a bit harder than on a sloop, which, I know, means that it probably will not be pulling even 3 tokens a turn.

The Cat Boat is designed for a number of purposes - it is a cheap ship designed to be easy to sail when undermanned as well as a cargo boat. I suppose it would be possible to scale up the Cat Boat, but the main feature of this ship is the reduced maximum over-ocean speed in return for the easier time handling the sails. The Cat Boat is clearly designed for trade rather than combat, and trade on a budget at that. I know that no one should seriously have trouble keeping a sloop at maximum speed and accelerating it there, but I imagine the catboat as an investment for players who are just starting to sail. Another use might be an easy ship to sail to uninhabited islands/islands without good supply sources and use as a resupply point.
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[Nov 25, 2005 10:23:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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Smaller ships are Anti-listed mainly because they reduce the amount of socialization.

Faulkston,
Anti-listy linky
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[Nov 25, 2005 10:36:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Mlik

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I think such a ship has been anti-listed. If you're just starting to sail, you shouldn't be trading alone. Instead, you get 4-5 buddies to protect your cargo and split the profits. You could also share the costs so everyone makes money. :)

Since payouts seem to benefit sloop and war brig pillages, if you want a new ship, make fully loaded large ship pillages more profitable, thus making them more fun and then you might see a market for an even bigger ship that can hold more people.

The other use for ships is in blockades. If you could come up with a design that would have a new, interesting, or unique role, that would be more useful.
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PsychoDan



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In addition to smaller ships being antilisted, catboats are decidedly out of period.

 
It is generally accepted that the origin of the catboat type was in New York around 1840 and from there spread east and south as the virtues of the type - simplicity, ease of handling, shallow draft, large capacity - were discovered.

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[Nov 25, 2005 10:52:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
IcabobFreely

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Personally I'd like to see a ship (haven't thought about a name) that has double copper plating in the bottom and sides. It would only have one carp and one bilge station, and be about the size of a cutter or MB. It would have a few more sailing stations. It would be about as hard as a MB to get to full speed because of the extra "armor" but that armor is only for carp and bilge purposes. Perhaps 12 guns, and about 1/8 less cargo capacity as the MB, or mabey as much as the WB. It's not quite as versitile as the WB, but could be an improvement on the merchant class vessles. Because of the armor on the bottom and sides, carp would take half as long to repair even with only one station.

Just a thought.
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[Nov 25, 2005 12:31:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    IcaTheBadOne [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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An ironcopperclad? Copper's not particularly strong.

Faulkston,
;-)
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[Nov 25, 2005 12:34:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
skanzaki



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Copper was traditionally used on the hulls of ships of the period to make them faster. Not on the sides so much.

If we had copper as a commod, I suppose making a more 'coppered' ship might be interesting, and the decay of the copper sheath would also be something interesting to talk about ...
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[Nov 25, 2005 1:18:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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*Bump*

I was realizing after an earlier post that the cutter really fails as a mid-level small ship design.

For merchanting, a sloop is a one person, 1 hold base ship. (1 per player)

A MB is a three person, 6.67 hold ship. (2.225 per player)

A cutter is either a 1 person, 2 hold, or 2 person, 2 hold ship, depending on quality of players. (Either a 2 per, or 1 per, depending on player quality)

For merchanting, we need a ship that is harder to sail than a cutter (so that it takes two people), yet holds more than 1 per person. Something like 3 hold capacity, yet harder to sail than a cutter.

For warfare, a cutter's offense is the same as a sloop; it's ability to stay in combat is only slightly better (2 full loads of cannons, easier to reload 4 per turn, 25% more damage absorbing), but it has significantly harder carp and sail generation limits.

So, how about two new ships, one a mid-low merchanting ship, and one a mid-low combat ship, to replace the cutter.

Some initial thoughts:

1. Small warship: More than 7, less than (25-30): 16 people. Double small shots (offensive/war capacity). Same hold size (2 hold) as a cutter.

Hit points: Sloops take 10 small. Cutters take 12.5 small. WB's take 25. For a 16 person ship, I'm asking for 18 smalls damage capacity.

Guns: Either 8 or 12. Not sure which. Probably 12.

Speed: Debatable. Should this be a brig-class speed (3 in battle, 75% outside of battle) or a sloop class (4 in battle, 100% outside)? Not sure.

Stations: 6/4/3 (13), 3 guns (16 total). Hey, that fits nicely.

Carp/Bilge characteristics of a WB.

2. Small merchant ship: 9 people max. Single small shot. 3 hold.

Hit points: 12.5 to 13 smalls.
Guns: 8 smalls. Single shot.
Speed: 4 per turn in battle. Full speed.

Stations: 4/6/4. 2 guns. 16 total stations -- ok, you can't fully man this one either. But hey -- 6 of your nine can clear up the carp damage quickly.

Carp/Bilge characteristics of the revised MB.
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Foilistc

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I would like to see two new ships.

Man-O-War: Cutter with medium guns

Fifth Rate: Bigger than a Grand Frig. (1.5 times larger) with Huge guns which would fire Huge cballs that do 2x the damage of large balls.... massive.
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Rumsfeld



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Man-O-War: Cutter with medium guns
Merch Brig actually works really well for pillaging with 7-15 mates.

2 things in defense of cutters:
They work well for pillaging for less experienced mates, or experienced mates on light blue routes, where you do not draw Brigs. They fail horribly when the brigs come out.
Imps in cutters is far easier for BNav then Imps in sloops because they go dead in the water more easily.
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TuucciZ

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But what will happen to the cutters? Reply to this Post
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About the Fifth Rate-vessel-idea...
I like the idea, but how are ye gonna get enough jobbers on that size vessel? Y'know, a GF can have 159 jobbers aboard (I guess). Then a Fifth Rate would need about 20 people to sail (depend on skills of players) and it would be able to hold at least 200 people.
And would it move two times in sea battle turn and shoot with trhee guns per one movement? I think we'll never get a vessel bigger than GF.
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Alec1000



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And maybe have Turkish Brigands on galleys,too
[Jun 10, 2006 2:28:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Alec1000



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I think galleys would be un-efficient because they don't have many cannons and the cannons they had were tiny,one shot wouldn't do it.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Alec1000 at Jun 10, 2006 2:32:29 PM]
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Faulkston

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Eastern Mediterranean probably works too. But yeah, that weakness of galleys was pointed out.

/em points to the Edit post link button.

Faulkston,
:-)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Faulkston at Jun 10, 2006 2:33:57 PM]
[Jun 10, 2006 2:32:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Alec1000



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Have ye ever notticed there's only one type of galleon? I play Sid Meir's Pirates! and the Spanish sometimes sail in these war ships called 'War Galleons',i'd like to sail in one these 'War Galleons' on Y!PP.
[Jun 10, 2006 2:38:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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How about a war or grand frigate? Grand frigates may be a better match in size for a galleon, although perhaps a little more difficult to sail.

Faulkston,
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[Jun 10, 2006 2:41:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Alec1000



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I remember on the game that War Galleons were heavily armed with several gun holes and the rudder between 2more gunholes.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Alec1000 at Jun 17, 2006 12:19:52 AM]
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Faulkston

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I'd say that both war and grand frigates are heavily armed with several gun holes. I'm not sure what a rutter exactly is but I think you mean rudder. Chase guns weren't as effective as broadsides given the relative lack of accuracy of naval cannons in historical times.

Faulkston,
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[Jun 10, 2006 2:54:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Alec1000



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Junks shouldn't be used because junks were sailed in the Yellow sea and other parts of the eastern Pacific ocean snd this is basicly based in the Carribean. Just like galleys,they don't belong here!
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Alec1000 at Jun 10, 2006 2:55:40 PM]
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BehindCurtai

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Idea: Submersable ship.

Size: 7 pirates. Same stations and performance as a sloop. Max sails in combat is down to 3 per turn instead of 4 per turn.

New characteristics: While on the surface, it gets three moves per turn (one dead space). While submerged, it gets two moves per turn (Two dead spaces).

Going down or going up takes two spaces on the turn; these may be dead spaces. It is possible to go down and move two on the same turn.

To fire, it must be fully surfaced.

Characteristics of all submerged items (ships and serpents):
1. Only visable (dotted) to other friendly ships. They have no (blockade board) influence while submerged.

2. Shots that are fired and hit a submerged item will hit and do damage. Yes, your auto-aiming shots are now auto-depth charges as well.

3. Spotting: Enemy ships have a chance to spot sunken ships.

Spotting is automatic at range 1.
Spotting is higher for bigger ships (You can look over a larger range of ocean), and higher for larger submersables (example: A large underwater sea serpent is more visable than a small serpent or submersable ship).
Spotting is higher for closer range.

Frigs have a max spot range of 4. Brigs have a max spot range of 3. Sloops have a max spot range of 2.

Underwater items spot each other normally. (Hey, they have no air-water interface to make it hard to see, right?).

4. Any underwater item moving over shallows or sandbars automatically reveals its location, but does not get to fire as a surfaced ship.
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Ravendruid

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I actually like this idea a lot! Rather than shots, however, I'd prefer to see it more like the Nautilus, with ramming only. Perhapsbthe submarine counts as 2 size categories larger for relative damage when initiating rams, but takes normal damage when rammed from any direction other than head-on.
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GeckoBlade

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BUMP
 
I would really like to have a Clipper.

These were large ships, known for their speeds and cargo capacities. Some of the most beautiful ships ever built where clippers.

What purpose would it serve?
The clipper would sit just after the current merch brig as an option for merchants.

What is it for?
Crews or flags wanting to sail large amounts of commodities can do so in record times. Clippers had inumerous sails. We could replicate this with an assortment of sailing stations and/or an hard-coded faster ship with the same or higher cargo capacity than the merch brig. It would also serve as a very fun ship to use for races.

What is its weakness?
Clippers were not meant for battle. They were very hard to maneuver under battle situations since it would take about an hour to match sails (to raise or lower sails to get to the speed needed for a battle situations). They were also constructed with light materials making them quite vulnerable to cannon shots.

I would really like this ship to have an icon of its own. These were absolute beauties.

For some info on clippers (Just my first hit on google): http://www.eraoftheclipperships.com/

Well, I just spent the past few hours working on a possible design for a clipper. I put together a rough draft of the upper deck with minimal props. I'm guessing the final product will be somewhere between a cutter and a merchant brig in terms of size, cost, and capacity. It will have 4 moves per turn, be able to preload 16 small cannons, and fire 4 shots per turn. There will eventually be 6 sailing stations, 3 carpentry stations, and 3 bilging stations. As Nashua said, it would have very little damage resistance.
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BehindCurtai

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Opening post wrote: 
OK, this is a place to discuss ship designs.


What purpose does a proposed ship have?
What is it for?
What is its weakness?

Example:

Sloop: Designed for easy sailing by a solo person, or by a small crew getting ready to take out a larger vessel.
Weakness: Cannot carry much, cannot fight well.

Warbrig: Designed for a larger group, about to outgrow a cutter.
Can rip either sloops or cutters to shreds. Significant combat ability, and can play in blockades.
Weakness: Needs a lot of people to run well.

Etc.


 
put together a rough draft of the upper deck with minimal props. I'm guessing the final product will be somewhere between a cutter and a merchant brig in terms of size, cost, and capacity. It will have 4 moves per turn, be able to preload 16 small cannons, and fire 4 shots per turn. There will eventually be 6 sailing stations, 3 carpentry stations, and 3 bilging stations. As Nashua said, it would have very little damage resistance.


Image is the least important thing at this point.
Single shot, small balls, 4 gunning stations -- that is horrible overkill on the gunning.

6 Sailing, 3 carp, and 3 bilge -- it is slightly off on the sails/carp/bilge station ratio seen by warships.

What's the disadvantage of this ship?
You mentioned low damage resistence -- are we talking new MB level carp repairs? Old MB level carp repairs? :-)

What's the sailing drag like -- can one sailor reach and keep max speed? Does it only take a fine to keep max, or do you need at least a good? At least an excellent?

A ship that has between a cutter (2 sloop) and an MB (6.67 sloop) cargo -- sounds like 4 sloop hold space.

So, let me see. Comparing to WB:
4 sloop hold (same)
16 small balls (instead of 16 medium)
6/3/3 (instead of 9/6/4)
4 move (instead of 3 move)

So it's weaker in combat, but easier to sail, faster to sail. It can outrun/avoid WB's, carry as much as a warbrig, and the overkill guns are just not used.

It's looking like a major overkill shipping ship -- get someone to help you get up to speed, and then nothing can catch you; if they somehow do catch you, you can outspeed them on the battle board and they won't grapple you. It's underpowered in combat compared to anything it will fight, so the gun overkill is worthless.

Does that help with the ship design?
----------------------------------------
"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
Why buy sham poo when real poo is so readily available

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