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d4rk0n3

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[Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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There is currently a mercenary crew on cobalt that has established
itself upon the waters of Cobalt.

This does add a new facet to the game, which I believe to be a good
thing, but in terms of playing devil's advocate...Doesn't this bend the
rules of the ToS as far as the games stance on spying and/or
gaining flag information to use for/against sympathetic or enemy
flags and crews?

I bring this up because it has come to my attention that a MONARCH
of a flag has placed an alt within the mercenary crew...How can this
be deemed legal?

Say the mercenary crew accepted a job against their flag, would they
be excluded from crew chat? That would be far fetched.

Knowledge gained of not only the mercenary's crew but of that
monarch's alt gaining knowledge of both their flag (the flag that
was hired to be attacked) and the flag that hired them as well.


Example:
My flag chooses to attack this flag.
I hire the mercenary crew.
That flag's monarch is in the mercenary crew as an alt.
That alt now has gained knowledge it should not be entitled to.

This is definitely spying and should be seen as a violation of the ToS.
[Oct 1, 2005 11:45:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DragonRage

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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If you don't want to be spied on, don't hire the mercenary crew.

It wouldn't even have to be anyone's alt. The mercenaries could just sell information on the combat readiness of their former employers.

It's the risk you run with hired guns.

Phade,
Deal with it.
----------------------------------------
Like, up in Canada, it's cold as a bastard! Out in Seattle, it rains like bastard! Down in Texas, it's muggy as a bastard!
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Talisker

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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The mercenary crew here is a confounding variable. Many people already have alts on various sides of conflicts. If they are not doing it to spy, then it's acceptable. Saying that a monarch, or royalty of any flag can never have an alt outside of that flag is ridiculous.
----------------------------------------
Leif
The Forums
Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

Av by Ecastasy
[Oct 1, 2005 12:07:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
d4rk0n3

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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I agree wholeheartedly, it's a major risk.

Just wanted documentation of stances from a ringers point of view
prior to any future "Spirit of the Game" bannings occurring for
practices or bending of the will of the game as RD was accused of for blockading expertise.
[Oct 1, 2005 12:08:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Crotty

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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It wouldn't even have to be anyone's alt. The mercenaries could just sell information on the combat readiness of their former employers.


Nah, nobody that hires us has to tell us anything about their combat readiness.

As far as alts & spying, come on, they will always be everywhere. In no way does our work facilitate easier spying.

Watch out for these nasty spies:
Crottytwo
Crottythree
Crottyfour
[Oct 1, 2005 12:12:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chainmaille

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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I think most alts that take up permanent residence in other crews do so because the player wants to play in both crews, not because the player wants to spy. While spying could occur "accidentally", I don't think it's nearly as bad a problem as intentional spying.
----------------------------------------
Derakon - Black Plague on Viridian and Sage
[Oct 1, 2005 12:14:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DragonRage

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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RD was banned for more than being a mercenary, and it took them over a year to finally do it.

I'm sure he had PLENTY of warnings before it happened.

That said, I had/have no beef with RD, and wasn't on the "ban RD" bandwagon.

Phade,
Often whoring himself out for blockade nav, which would just as easily allow him to spy if he wanted. =P
----------------------------------------
Like, up in Canada, it's cold as a bastard! Out in Seattle, it rains like bastard! Down in Texas, it's muggy as a bastard!
[Oct 1, 2005 12:14:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Preacher+of+Pie [Link]  Go to top 
d4rk0n3

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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As far as alts & spying, come on, they will always be everywhere. In no way does our work facilitate easier spying.



Scenario:

Flag A hires u to attack Flag B.
Your sailing and engaging on Flag B.

Onboard is an alt for Flag A.
====================================
That alt tells their Flag A where Flag B is at.
Flag A alt disengages the battle as Flag A gets nearby.

Onboard is an alt for Flag B
=====================================
That alt tells Flag B that they are about to be engaged.
Vessel for Flag B has members leave the vessel to lower might.

Both cases show that circumstances gave the alt knowledge
they would not of previously has prithy to.

If your a monarch of a flag, would you sink your own frigs/brigs
because you were hired to?

Of course not, or say in the course of the arrangement Flag A
loans the mercenary crew the deed. Flag B alt causes it to be sunk because there main flag could possibly lose a vessel. So, theoretically
that alt accepted a job it had no intention of completing favorably.

That is defrauding a player.
That is violating the ToS.
That does invoke the trite deemed against the "Spirit of the Game".
[Oct 1, 2005 12:53:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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That alt now has gained knowledge it should not be entitled to.

This is definitely spying and should be seen as a violation of the ToS.


As a member of that crew, he's entitled to whatever knowledge the crew has. In any case, what knowledge can a person gain from jobbing that is considered "spying"?
[Oct 1, 2005 1:21:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mayanjewel

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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I would also love to have the issue clarified, because obviously there is every mechanism in the game to allow spying.

Even if you tried to discourage spying, any time you have jobbers, you should know that your crew chat is not secure communications. In a blockade especially, because random jobbers who get planked or leave can be expected to try jobbing on the other side for a while.

I think it isn't a violation to use another pirate to hear things on crew chat, or board ships and count supplies. Repeating word for word strategies or tells with the moves placed seems a bit wrong. Tough call.
----------------------------------------
Mayanjewel

So all were lost, which in the ship were found,
They in the sea being burnt, they in the burnt ship drown'd.
[Oct 1, 2005 1:49:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Crotty

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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I'd like to inquire of the Ringers about the status of Muffbeard's OM application. Because it appears he has decided to start his OM work early.

And to any of my crew mates who are receiving tells from Muffbeard telling them they are in violation of the TOS by being in our crew, just use mute as I have with him.
[Oct 1, 2005 1:50:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prosperity

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o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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This Spirit of the game nonsense is really starting to get on my nerves. RD, Jtb, SS, and SF were all screwed by the OMs twisting the ToS because they didn't like RD. How about every stops using the "spirit of the game" against anything they don't like. This mercenary crew is a great idea and if you have a problem with it don't hire them. If you aren't even planning on hiring them then just don't even bother worrying about it let alone telling the world that they are evil and should all be banned because it's against the non-existant "spirit of the game."

D4rk0n3, first I encourage you to change your forum name because just by looking at that people think you're a joke and a greenie. Secondly, you should read the ToS and find out what they really are instead of listening to the people who don't like RD whine. Thirdly, stay out of people's business unless it regards you.

Prosperity
----------------------------------------
Obsidian: Inglorious Basterds, Guerrilla Warfare
CFO, Nonsensical Nudity Inc.
[Oct 1, 2005 1:58:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thunderbird

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Re: [Cobalt] Legality of Mercenary Crews Reply to this Post
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Crotty wrote: 
I'd like to inquire of the Ringers about the status of Muffbeard's OM application. Because it appears he has decided to start his OM work early.

And to any of my crew mates who are receiving tells from Muffbeard telling them they are in violation of the TOS by being in our crew, just use mute as I have with him.


Last I looked, the Ringers aren't even hiring OMs at this point.

There is nothing wrong with mercenary crews, RD's transgressions that got him banned had nothing to do with the fact that he headed a mercenary crew. We've got entire mercenary flags on Viridian that have been around for many months at this point.
----------------------------------------
Pirate tells you, "my, that's one BIG wad o' chewing gum ye have mounted on yer bonce! oO'"
Sungod officer chats, "I wonder if anyone's sailing the harpsichord"
Pirate tells you, "ZOMG CANDYFLOSS!!! *munches*"
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Thunderbird at Oct 1, 2005 2:03:21 PM]
[Oct 1, 2005 2:03:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prosperity

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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Crotty was being sarcastic I believe.
----------------------------------------
Obsidian: Inglorious Basterds, Guerrilla Warfare
CFO, Nonsensical Nudity Inc.
[Oct 1, 2005 2:04:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
yorkyblue

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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Just to calirfy. I have logs from an OM when I first started this Crew and Flag letting me know it's ok to carry on. Apparantly that's not enough anymore according to Muffbeard as everything changes when you get a new crew member.

What I don't get is why *we* could be in trouble when from everything I can understand that he has wrote, or sent to me in a /tell, would be happening against us. We would be the ones getting hurt from the so called spys.

He seems to think we pick and choose our crew and we won't take alts from anywhere. Just to calrify once again. Everyone can come and join us. Just don't expect to be promoted if we don't know you and trust you.

EDIT: Having no political ties you would think that you could be away from this crap wouldn't you?
----------------------------------------
a Song for the Deaf.

Rissymay wrote: 
I was taking a state capital quiz, and I got my own state wrong.

----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by yorkyblue at Oct 1, 2005 2:14:08 PM]
[Oct 1, 2005 2:11:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
d4rk0n3

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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I think player policing is going to have to be the way to go. As Homullus said, the benefits of low-level spying would take tremendous planning and would really not be worth the effort (are the gains really that much greater than just plundering any old crew you come across?).
As Hethor touched upon, spying could become rather interesting as a viable activity. Certainly anyone spying in the upper echelons of a Flag (which was, I believe, Silverbeard's original concern) would have had to go to great effort to be in the upper echelons of the Flag. Then, he would have to walk a delicate line with any information he leaked to his superiors so as to make sure the duped Flag didn't suspect anything. Certainly he could try to orchestrate some fantastic coup that would likely blow his cover but have commensurate rewards. But I think that'd be pretty darn cool and I'd be happy if someone pulled that off. It'd be like his different characters were actually disguises (which, really they all are, in a way) and he was a double-agent. Who knows, he may become more comfortable in his new role than his old one and switch sides mid-mission. The spy-genre possibilities are manifold.
It all becomes a matter of doing it in the spirit of the game.
It seems akin to Spleen's rule-breaking during the Crew Races at the Tournament. He was in second place on the home stretch and wasn't likely to catch up. But (following their prearranged plan) Ely came out of nowhere in an unregistered ship and attacked the leader, allowing Spleen to coast in first. This would have been really obnoxious had there been another contender for the win, or had Spleen not immediately admitted his plan and said it was all in the piratey spirit. But, he graciously accepted his disqualification, saying Homullus's crew was the clear winner and we all laughed at the piratey joke. (Even though there was a moment of frustration before the revelation of the joke... as is usually the case in practical jokes.)
So, certainly we have to watch for truly exploitable problems involving multiple characters, but in this case, I think the only things that could truly be gained from spying are some good role-playing fun and a bit of intrigue.
qu
-Nemo




As far as the OM retort...

I didn't know getting rules clarified and establishing ethical standards
and guidelines were frowned upon.

Next blockade I am gonna make 2 alts...talk my way into war crews
and then remove all the supplies for each....cuz come on...I was
in the crews and rightfully gained knowledge as to where the supplies
were right?
[Oct 1, 2005 2:13:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
yorkyblue

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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Next blockade I am gonna make 2 alts...talk my way into war crews
and then remove all the supplies for each....cuz come on...I was
in the crews and rightfully gained knowledge as to where the supplies
were right?


That would be stealing.
----------------------------------------
a Song for the Deaf.

Rissymay wrote: 
I was taking a state capital quiz, and I got my own state wrong.

[Oct 1, 2005 2:15:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
d4rk0n3

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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That would be stealing.


There is a destroy that isn't stealing and how can I steal from own
crew that I was given implied permission to access.
[Oct 1, 2005 2:18:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prosperity

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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Hah. You're funny. If you needed clarification you could easily petition an OM. No, you're attacking the mercenary crew. Secondly, removing supplies like that will get you banned. I hope you do that so we don't have to put up with you anymore.
----------------------------------------
Obsidian: Inglorious Basterds, Guerrilla Warfare
CFO, Nonsensical Nudity Inc.
[Oct 1, 2005 2:19:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gloraelin

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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As far as the OM retort...

I didn't know getting rules clarified and establishing ethical standards
and guidelines were frowned upon.

It is when you take it upon yourself to be the one to make sure everyone's following them.

You, sir, are rapidly gaining my ire. And that's not a Good Thing(TM), trust me.
----------------------------------------
Jen wrote: 
yes glor.. your boobs are vuluptously awesome.
 
Ye have received a trade request from Thunderbird.
Those two offers are identical, what's the point?

[Oct 1, 2005 2:19:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gloraelin/    gloraelin    gloraelin [Link]  Go to top 
yorkyblue

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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That would be stealing.


There is a destroy that isn't stealing and how can I steal from own
crew that I was given implied permission to access.


Stop getting so petty. Go read the threads all over these forums about how a crew mate stole from them. That will answer your question.
----------------------------------------
a Song for the Deaf.

Rissymay wrote: 
I was taking a state capital quiz, and I got my own state wrong.

[Oct 1, 2005 2:20:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prosperity

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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That would be stealing.


There is a destroy that isn't stealing and how can I steal from own
crew that I was given implied permission to access.


Destroying someone else's property IS against the rules. No one would give you permission to do so in their right mind.
----------------------------------------
Obsidian: Inglorious Basterds, Guerrilla Warfare
CFO, Nonsensical Nudity Inc.
[Oct 1, 2005 2:21:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
d4rk0n3

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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Petitioning doesn't make a mandate.
Most petitions are causal and not policy...what is allowed today
may not be allowed tomorrow?

It's obvious you missed that year in government and setting regulations
and standards.

So how is your alt in your enemies flag doing these days Prosp?
[Oct 1, 2005 2:21:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prosperity

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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So how is your alt in your enemies flag doing these days Prosp?


1.) I love you Glor.
2.) You are contradicting yourself saying that you just want an answer from an OM. Petitions are for that reason.
3.) First I'm not involced in politics anymore. Second I don't agree with spying and I'm not partaking in this offense. Unless you have proof you shouldn't point fingers it might be against the "spirit of the game" :p On a serious note, posting a lie such as this is just plain rude. People might believe I'm doing something wrong. Just because I disagree with you does not mean you have to make up drrrty rumors about me. =)
----------------------------------------
Obsidian: Inglorious Basterds, Guerrilla Warfare
CFO, Nonsensical Nudity Inc.
[Oct 1, 2005 2:24:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gloraelin

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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Petitioning doesn't make a mandate.
Most petitions are causal and not policy...what is allowed today
may not be allowed tomorrow?

It's obvious you missed that year in government and setting regulations
and standards.

So how is your alt in your enemies flag doing these days Prosp?

Ok, mate. One last time before I see if I can get some people to drop a lovely little /wardec on you...

1) Stop with the personal attacks. They're not needed (yes, I know it's Parley. It doesn't need to be taken this far, though), and make you look rather silly when people respond with logical arguments to your 'points'.

2) Last I knew, a petition can certainly set policy. And if you have a problem with that, take it to the Ringers in an email.

3) Naming names is Not Nice(TM) and is also frowned upon. I seem to recall you having a fit when someone did that to you. Either shut up or stop being hypocritical.

Thank you. You may now go back to your regularly scheduled tarting.
----------------------------------------
Jen wrote: 
yes glor.. your boobs are vuluptously awesome.
 
Ye have received a trade request from Thunderbird.
Those two offers are identical, what's the point?

[Oct 1, 2005 2:26:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gloraelin/    gloraelin    gloraelin [Link]  Go to top 
Prosperity

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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I love you even more now Glor.
----------------------------------------
Obsidian: Inglorious Basterds, Guerrilla Warfare
CFO, Nonsensical Nudity Inc.
[Oct 1, 2005 2:29:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
yorkyblue

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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Ok, mate. One last time before I see if I can get some people to drop a lovely little /wardec on you...


Unfortunatly he has no flag. It looks like he just disbanded his crew too.

I was looking forward to the day he joined a flag aswel *cry
----------------------------------------
a Song for the Deaf.

Rissymay wrote: 
I was taking a state capital quiz, and I got my own state wrong.

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Gloraelin

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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I love you even more now Glor.

>.>
<.<

=D
----------------------------------------
Jen wrote: 
yes glor.. your boobs are vuluptously awesome.
 
Ye have received a trade request from Thunderbird.
Those two offers are identical, what's the point?

[Oct 1, 2005 2:30:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gloraelin/    gloraelin    gloraelin [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Re: o noes not teh spirt or teh game!1!11!!!eleven! Reply to this Post
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Petitioning doesn't make a mandate.
Most petitions are causal and not policy...what is allowed today may not be allowed tomorrow?


*thwaps you on the head*

In this game the developer's action or inaction is how policy is decided. Above, Nemo clearly stated that OOO will not act unless there is a spying attempt that is effectual. The only one I can think of is the hacking of the Looterati forums, but that violates laws independant from the rules of the game. The only form of spying that is currently not kosher is the spying of move tokens on player ships. Even then, proving the perpetrators in this type of spying is next to impossible.

As far as mercenary crews go, this one is not the first mercenary crew in the ocean. The idea of mercenary crews has been supported by OOO as an interesting roleplaying addition to the game.

Oh yeah:

Spying and Mercenaries are not intertwined issues. Do not discuss them as if they go hand in hand.
[Oct 1, 2005 2:31:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prosperity

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I'm really tempted to post our current chat log. He's making all these flase assumptions. It's absolutely hillarious.
----------------------------------------
Obsidian: Inglorious Basterds, Guerrilla Warfare
CFO, Nonsensical Nudity Inc.
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