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Captntipper



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PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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Most of the recent PvP discussion has been about arranged winners, but I'd like to look at another (in my opinion) flawed aspect of PvP encounters.

Arranged or not, when two well-staffed ships fight each other, the resulting sea battle tends to drag out for a very long time before someone finally gets sunk or disengages. Even after taking damage, in most situations it's very common for ships to miss shots for a couple turns, damage gets repaired, and everything is back to the beginning.

Often times, one bnavver will pull out a nice move, outsmarting the other and placing a few shots. Pirates on board the ship will often cheer, but after 2-3 turns of defensive play this ends up meaning nothing. A bunch of small mistakes are simply not punished if they aren't often enough, while the battle will often end after one single big mistake.

In order to try and limit the time PvP battles take while trying to reward every smart move made by bnavvers, my suggestion is to add a new component to damage taken that would be permanent.

During sinking PvP encounters (and I would like to exclude other scenarios), whenever a ship takes damage, a small amount of that damage will be "permanent damage", that cannot be repaired. This could be shown in the damage meter by a darker shade of red, for example, so that regular damage can be repaired as usual but will never drop below the permanent component.

If we consider a sloop v sloop battle as an example, whenever a sloop gets hit by a small CB, it takes 10% damage. 1/5 of that amount (that is, 2% of its maximum health), will be permanent. Regardless of the amount of turns that go by without getting hit again, a sloop that was shot once will never drop under 2% damage, and of course bilge will be harder to hold the more damage that gets taken.

In my opinion, this rewards every small victory bnavvers get during the sea battle, while at the same time doesn't really affects scenarios where you receive a huge amount of damage in a short time, since carpenters will still have to go through all the "regular damage" before the permanent component begins to matter. Long, drawn out fights were shots are traded every now and then will result in two ships struggling to keep the bilge down, running out of moves, and either sinking each other more easily or just disengaging.

Of course, I'd like to read your thoughts on this matter, and if it were to be liked, a discussion on what fraction of damage taken should be permanent.

Thoughts to consider:

- The game has a way to tell which battles are sinking and which aren't, so I don't think implementing this in some cases and not others will be a problem (kind of how maneuvers show up in some boards but not others)

- I can see how adding a new "concept" to sea battles may not seem like the most elegant idea, but I feel that if it's integrated with the existing damage meter pirates will find it quite intuitive. Maybe the red alert that shows when entering a sinking PvP could add a short line about this.

- I'm aware there's other situations when two ships may engage in sinking PvP where this system wouldn't be in place, like an encounter in Atlantis. I don't think it would be a problem though since there's already other differences (like no grapple!)

- Another small detail to consider is other sources of damage other than cannon shots. I think bumps and rocks could both work the same way to avoid confusion without feeling out of place. I admit I don't know what to do about the small amount of damage ships constantly take just from sailing; adding permanent damage to that doesn't seem like an idea I'd like, but maybe setting it apart is difficult from a developer perspective? I have no idea.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Captntipper at Mar 5, 2018 6:52:19 PM]
[Mar 5, 2018 6:50:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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Interesting I kind of like it for all battles, carrying over, will get pillages to port sooner divi and let the ship reset, moving the jobbers around allowing other people to hire them.

Would be harsh on SMH's though...

I don't know if its not used in pvp it shouldn't be for pve just my opinion. People hit and heal in pve the same as pvp the only difference is the bots can't heal as quick as most current players.
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[Mar 5, 2018 7:07:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Captntipper



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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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SMH's would be undoable! And about PvE, its true people hit and run, but the purpose there is to gain an advantage during the fray, and damage that's repaired still counts as fray damage, so I don't think you're solving anything (if there was something to be solved there) by implementing this.
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Captnnemo - Obsidian
[Mar 5, 2018 7:14:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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SMH's would be undoable! And about PvE, its true people hit and run, but the purpose there is to gain an advantage during the fray, and damage that's repaired still counts as fray damage, so I don't think you're solving anything (if there was something to be solved there) by implementing this.

actual pvp is to gain consecutive damage and wear out the other side, your trying to shorten it. PvP's should be hard and you should have to corner someone and out nav them. or have better carps and faster guns so you can trade. I liked the way it is their is satisfaction in a 1 hour battle ending with the gunner having 3 rows of balls. Good times.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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[Mar 5, 2018 7:18:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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Hi Captnnemo. Interesting idea which prevents long drawn out battles. It might have an unintended side effect though: Accumulation of advantage.

Ship1 captures a good opportunity and lands some shots on Ship2. Assuming nothing happens in the next few turns and they recover, Ship1 is now in a better position to win the fight due to Ship2's perm-dmg. This compounds and the advantage only gets larger. Not sure if this was what you envisioned.

Also, I think there's a certain beauty in a team that's losing, but eventually manages to adapt and pull off a remarkable turnaround. I'm not sure how much of that would still remain if they were accumulating perm-dmg whilst studying their opponents.
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[Mar 5, 2018 11:14:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
GreatBob

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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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Hi Captnnemo. Interesting idea which prevents long drawn out battles. It might have an unintended side effect though: Accumulation of advantage.

Ship1 captures a good opportunity and lands some shots on Ship2. Assuming nothing happens in the next few turns and they recover, Ship1 is now in a better position to win the fight due to Ship2's perm-dmg. This compounds and the advantage only gets larger. Not sure if this was what you envisioned.

Also, I think there's a certain beauty in a team that's losing, but eventually manages to adapt and pull off a remarkable turnaround. I'm not sure how much of that would still remain if they were accumulating perm-dmg whilst studying their opponents.

That sounds exactly like what he meant, and if we're strictly talking about sinking pvp I think it's a great idea. The amount of permanent damage could be tweaked or have a maximum put in, maybe 30%. It is frustrating that you can pull away after a mistake, repair, and go back in fresh. This change won't make a difference if the skill gap between ships is huge, but rather make mistakes matter more in close fights.

I do not think this change would be good for other environments, especially anything PvE. It could have some interesting implications on blockades, but would only serve to make them more costly.
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[Mar 6, 2018 12:34:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jlh0605

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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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I also support this idea. It sound like it could help with the monotony of long battles where not much is happening.

Regarding how this could be visually conveyed, I think one simple way would to be to have a yellow line showing the limit of repairable damage (kind of like a speedometer needle). Anything red above this line can be repaired, while anything below it cannot (until the battle ends). Considering the quite small pixel size of the damage meter in some cases (such as standing on deck), I think two shades of red might not be visually distinct enough.

I think the ratio of damage that should be "permanent" would be somewhere in the 25% - 33% range (meaning it takes 3-4 shots to land 1 "permanent" shot). I also like the idea of a maximum permanent damage per battle, and I personally think somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 max damage is about right.

Regarding what counts towards permanent damage, I'd say anything that counts towards fray damage counts towards permanent damage. So this would mean that shots, bumps, and rams would count, but the slow trickle of normal damage taken would not.

I agree that this concept should be kept out of Sea Monster Hunts, flotillas, and blockades. But I think this concept can and should be applied to both PvP and PvE pillage battles. I am also open to this happening in Imperial Outpost expeditions.

The reason I believe this should apply to PvE battles is the same reason that it should apply to PvP battles: Battles tend to drag on forever if the opponents are reasonably equally matched. Yes, this does give a slight advantage to the first side to land shots, but honestly, that will only slightly change PvE battle nav (if at all). This could also be exceptionally helpful for Brigand King or Merchant ship fights: If you land a few shots, the ship's ability to run away is lessened (though not eliminated).

One possible compromise with those who think it shouldn't apply in PvE could be to have two distinct levels of this effect. The two levels would have different "percentage of damage that's permanent" and "maximum permanent damage percentage." For example, PvE (and non-sinking IO's) could have 20% damage permanent (takes five shots landed to make a permanent shot landed) and 33% max damage. On the flip side, PvP (and sinking IO's) could have as high as 40% damage (takes five shots to land two permanent) and up to 50% maximum damage. (It would also be possible to say only sinking PvP has the higher level, and non-sinking PvP has the lower level.)


I also want to clarify one point: I am only for this idea on a per-battle basis. So after a battle, a ship can be repaired back to 0 damage. I also believe that in any case where a ship enters battle damaged (including disengage/re-engage), the damage they enter battle with doesn't count towards their permanent cap. (So perhaps it should be called battle-long damage instead of permanent damage?)
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[Mar 6, 2018 2:45:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link]  Go to top 
asts6

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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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I also want to clarify one point: I am only for this idea on a per-battle basis. So after a battle, a ship can be repaired back to 0 damage. I also believe that in any case where a ship enters battle damaged (including disengage/re-engage), the damage they enter battle with doesn't count towards their permanent cap. (So perhaps it should be called battle-long damage instead of permanent damage?)


+1

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Sagacious

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Maybe a ship that lands a shot on the enemy can relieve itself of some of the permanent damage (making it un-permanent) so that an advantage can be regained still if they out-maneuver their opponent while suffering from the effects of permanent damage. Something like for each shot landed, 50% of the damage caused would be taken off the permanent damage level of the ship firing.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sagacious at Mar 6, 2018 6:37:07 AM]
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Kingerr1



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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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This is a cool feature to be added maybe add it to IOs too so we bring back those expos too because no one plays them because they are annoying to deal with and pay less then greedies.
[Mar 6, 2018 7:34:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Captntipper



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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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So replying to a few points:

Ryuken: Accumulation of advantage is exactly what I'd like to achieve! Get in a few shots more than your opponent, and be rewarded for it, even if he pulls out to repair (or because of passive play no shots are landed for a few turns), he won't be able to fully repair. Avoid returning to the initial state of a fight; every shot makes progress.

Sagacious: Sounds interesting, but kind of defeats the purpose of the idea. If there's a way to remove permanent damage, then battles could potentially reset to it's initial state and thus last long. I know you proposed removing a bit less of the permanent damage that it's dealt, but I think tweaking the ratio of permanent to regular damage would have the same effect and be easier to understand.

Jamesh: I love the idea of a speed needle. Simpler and I agree easier to visualize in the small damage indicator. You're right too, on damage that counts towards frays. My main concern was whether it would be difficult to separate the sources of damage you enlist from the slow trickle, but since the game already does do for frays it might be doable. Finally yes, this damage would only be permanent WITHIN THAT BATTLE. We don't want ships to be permanently crippled!

To all who suggested: I hadn't considered a maximum amount of permanent damage. This is mainly because when you get permanent damage, you're also getting repairable damage over it. So if your permanent is near the maximum (say 50% if that was decided), you're probably dealing with a ton of total damage near the ships max, so the battle will likely be over regardless. In that sense, I'm not sure it will have any effect to top permanent damage, unless that maximum is low like 30%. That being said I'm not against the idea, but I don't want it to be too low as not to be impactful.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Captntipper at Mar 6, 2018 7:57:02 AM]
[Mar 6, 2018 7:55:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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This is a cool feature to be added maybe add it to IOs too so we bring back those expos too because no one plays them because they are annoying to deal with and pay less then greedies.


+1 if they go the route those IO's are pain....

What about Flotillas?
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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[Mar 6, 2018 8:54:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
GreatBob

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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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To all who suggested: I hadn't considered a maximum amount of permanent damage. This is mainly because when you get permanent damage, you're also getting repairable damage over it. So if your permanent is near the maximum (say 50% if that was decided), you're probably dealing with a ton of total damage near the ships max, so the battle will likely be over regardless. In that sense, I'm not sure it will have any effect to top permanent damage, unless that maximum is low like 30%. That being said I'm not against the idea, but I don't want it to be too low as not to be impactful.

The issue I see with there being no maximum is that both ships may simply become waterlogged, resulting in a battle where each ship is receiving one token every two turns and dragging things out. A value of around 1/3 health means you can still keep a ship dry, but those that aren't fully staffed will take on water much sooner.

I certainly agree that having a cap on this value may take away some of its weight, but I feel that it balances out the other aspects of the game. In PvP the number of people on each station is equally as important as the skill of the puzzlers, and having permanent damage be unlimited would devalue repair-heavy strategies.


In regards to pillaging, it would be nice for enemy ships to move less when they're maxed, such as the enemy Xebecs that continue moving at 3/turn after taking 20 mediums. This is definitely a no-go for SMH, but if it works for pillaging it should work for IO as well.
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[Mar 6, 2018 10:12:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prammy16

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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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I agree massively with most everything in this thread. It's quite aggravating PVPing for and hour and a half, and winning only because your ship was stocked with 800 CBs, and they used all 600 of theirs... It's even worse if you lose after all that.

A couple points:

I don't think the issue with making the first few shots getting a cumulative effect is a strong argument. Damage has no effect at all until your ship hits the "breaking point", and the damage overcomes your bilgers. Only at this point (which can be around 2/3 sinking damage with skilled bilgers) does the damage matter at all. Considering how much damage gets repaired over the coarse of a battle, what the permanent damage would do would make it be that much easier to get the opposing ship to that breaking point. It would still be an advantage, definitely, but not until a lot of permanent damage wracks up.

Along the same lines, having a max permanent damage would be good. If something like 50% is such a maximum, each ship at max permanent damage would still be very vulnerable, as only a couple cbs would put them over the breaking point, and swamp their bilge. However, if there is no max permanent damage, you run the risk of both ships passing the breaking point and being unable to bilge it, as the permanent damage itself could be more than the breaking point. This would lead to two ships with max bilge and literally impossible for either one to bilge it down because they are no longer able to carp the permanent damage.

Also, I think it could be good to consider the perm damage being removed instantly at the end of a battle, especially if perm damage is extended to PvE. Normally you are able to keep your damage to a minimum throughout the battle, and get back on the high seas with 0%-10% damage. If permanent damage weren't removed, though, it would be very common to have high damage after every single battle.

All in all, I'm definitely in favor of this idea, and great points have been made all around =)
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[Mar 6, 2018 10:29:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Captntipper



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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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Good points in favor of a maximum permanent damage. As Porglit said, the breaking point issue is important to consider. I agree then that it's not good for permanent damage to be over this value since some battles could end up with two water filled ships waiting to disengage. Still, I agree that the idea is to make ships vulnerable, a maxed out (on permanent damage) ship should suffer from making small mistakes. Maybe 50% is a good mark then?

I'm still not convinced this system should be applied on PvE scenarios. I'm against it on pillages, since what this aims to do is to reward any damage dealt and punish small mistakes, and in grapple situations that's already done with fray handicap. If brigands are repairing too easily after taking damage maybe thats something that needs ti be fixed separately?

IOs though may be more interesting (and less annoying) with it.
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[Mar 6, 2018 11:07:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prammy16

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Re: PvP Suggestion - Permanent damage Reply to this Post
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I'm still not convinced this system should be applied on PvE scenarios. I'm against it on pillages, since what this aims to do is to reward any damage dealt and punish small mistakes, and in grapple situations that's already done with fray handicap. If brigands are repairing too easily after taking damage maybe thats something that needs ti be fixed separately?

IOs though may be more interesting (and less annoying) with it.


I'd agree. PvE doesn't have the tendency to go on for literally an hour, unless you're doing something seriously wrong. The point of perm damage would be to counteract something that doesn't effect PvE.

It does, though, effect IOs. IOs have a particularly good set of carpenters, and can go on for a time similar in nature to PVPs (especially if it's sinky). Putting perm damage on IOs would likewise cause them to end sooner and reward favorable trades better.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Prammy16 at Mar 6, 2018 11:12:03 AM]
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joshuawhelan

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A couple of times now I've jobbed on a medium-sized ship pillage which somebody has attacked. As a jobber, a near-endless battle because that attacker keeps retreating at the first sign of damage is no fun.

Unless the bnavver is very generous, the only compensation you get for a PvP that half of those involved didn't really want to begin with is (was?) a trinket. It's much worse when you have to work for over half an hour just to get it.

Permanent damage would be a good step to reducing the time wasted for jobbers like me. Particularly now that the trinkets have lost any worth anyway.
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Tayes

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+1
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[Mar 7, 2018 3:25:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Goodwill100

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That sounds very good.

Hope to see this implemented in some way.
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