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ZeroZiat

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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Devonin wrote: 

I'm having trouble understanding why a number of people seem to take "I want to play on obsidian, but without mandatory pvp" as a personal attack on their playstyle or person. Not that I'm saying you guys are, but it's a sentiment I've seen and heard expressed a few times.

What exactly do you lose, obsidian pvp'ers, if a way were actually devised to allow some subset of the game to opt out of mandatory pvp in a way that didn't bork the economy, didn't bork the blockade game, didn't open itself to a bunch of exploitation, and didn't focribly separate the players from ever interacting?
Personally, when this ocean's concept was published it kind of primarily raised the point of being riskier, I download it from Steam, launch it, I see the main menu interface is darker, the music has changed to a more defiant tone, it gave me a vibe I've never seen in PP. I saw risk, and I see risk as actual fun. An added twist of risk to this really old game I liked, but always lacked something!

Having people just opt-out seems kind of like missing the whole point, honestly. This time, the rules are different, and they should deliver on it.

Also, all of those conditions you mentioned probably aren't easy to fulfill...

Testimonial to PvP engagements: I've played since last month and all of the PvP engagements I've been in never even ended in sinking. /shrug

Don't get me wrong, I understand you want to be part of the game... But you have to play ball. At least in this server.

Honestly if I wanted to escape an engagement unsinked I'd ransom my ship through /tells and pay for it in halves. That's it really. You have to use your head more than your muscles sometimes.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged except Obsidian.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by ZeroZiat at Oct 11, 2017 6:14:40 PM]
[Oct 11, 2017 6:11:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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If they'd just had GH issue two new fresh oceans, one this way and one not, none of this would be a problem, but I bet both oceans would be struggling to have enough population to really get traction.

People who don't want pvp are putting up with it because they want to play on a server where stuff actually happens. But some of them won't, and people who might join won't.

The fact that they've kept all the old servers around is actually making the problem worse, because enough people refuse to abandon their stuff that they can't easily close those servers down without a bunch of angry bad press to deal with, but new players take a look at 8 pirates online, no activities on the board, and when they actually see somebody, they have incredibly intimidating looking stats and just don't stick.

GH should have issued a new game with two servers, one mandatory pvp and one not, and ThreeRings should have just said "Sorry guys, we got shut down" but that didn't happen, so we have to sort of deal with what we've got.
[Oct 11, 2017 6:18:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ZeroZiat

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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I agree the "painful inheritance" situation stinks for GH. I think they're even less staffed than Three Rings so they're really in a bad spot.

Also made me dream of a server migration mechanic so they could abandon those servers, sadly it's been said it'd ruin the economy. And they're right. Not even at worse case scenarios of migration it'd already blast a new server's economy out of the water. I can't speak more on it since I think that's on the Anti-List anyways...
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged except Obsidian.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by ZeroZiat at Oct 11, 2017 6:25:21 PM]
[Oct 11, 2017 6:20:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tierios



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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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As the Navver of the other ship, I can tell you that I do reward the jobbers on my ship, although the majority are hearties or crewbies, I put a large amount money in the divide if we win to pay the jobbers, and normally if they all leave straight away I pay the jobbers if i lose too. I can say from the PVP perspective that the majority of my battles go to sinks, whether it be me sinking or my opponent. I can understand the grind however, PVP battles are normally some of the longest battles in the game. They do however give a unique watch, there's not many occasions that you get to see player on player as its quite rare people go out looking for them. I certainly would advise the other navigator to be kinder to his jobbers, they're trying their best, with a ship as full as his too, he could've rotated some of the stations and gave some of the stationers a brief respite by swapping them with his lazers. This ocean was built with an emphasis on PVP and although not everyone agrees with it, it makes it so that if you go for the riskier waters for the rewards, you also have the added risk that you can get PVP'd. There's certainly grudge matches between navvers and flags attacking flags but it does make the game more exciting and adds an element of unpredictability which frankly I think is needed as otherwise without the release of kades, we would all be sitting on our hands. Special thank you to everyone that was on my ship, apologies it took so long! I hope you'll all job with me again <3
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Scar On Obsidian Ocean
[Oct 11, 2017 8:32:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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Devonin wrote: 
People who don't want pvp are putting up with it because they want to play on a server where stuff actually happens. But some of them won't, and people who might join won't.

Can we quit saying that PvP is the issue, because it isn't. The concern revolves around sinking. The ability to "opt-out" of PvP itself is the same in YPP as it is in PP:DS.

 
The fact that they've kept all the old servers around is actually making the problem worse, because enough people refuse to abandon their stuff that they can't easily close those servers down without a bunch of angry bad press to deal with, but new players take a look at 8 pirates online, no activities on the board, and when they actually see somebody, they have incredibly intimidating looking stats and just don't stick.

People see stats as intimidating? I've always looked at them as a challenge. No different than trying to get top score on the DR in whatever puzzle you're on.

Devonin wrote: 
I'll rephrase. Without having to continually spend premium currency to salvage the ship repeatedly.

Ah, okay. So, I think there's some serious over-reaction to how vulnerable a solo mem'er is in PP:DS. You and Theorize appear to be taking the stance that because sinking is a possibility, you're at a much higher risk of losing your ship (as in "it's sinking PvP, now I'm going to be attacked 10 times more than if I were playing YPP instead of PP:DS"). I've not heard of solo mem'ers having to put up with PvP by the opposing faction, unless it was a targeted attack (as in, hey, someone from crew/flag 123 in the other faction is out sailing alone, we should try to PvP and sink them).

However, I wouldn't be opposed to PvP being altered slightly, to account for anyone trying to circumvent the might rings. I think in a another thread (in GD), someone suggested making it a requirement that the attacking ship can only have the same (or less) number of pirates on it as the defending ship.

So, if I were a fresh officer, fairly weak stats, and I was mem'ing, and I only had one other pirate aboard my ship, then any attacking vessel would have to match the number (2 or less) as well as the might ring. That way you don't have players using 1 main (them) and 4 alts (other players) to attack a 1 or 2 pirate ship.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by majestrate at Oct 12, 2017 11:54:59 AM]
[Oct 12, 2017 11:43:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Cutingchris

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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I'll reiterate what I say to people:

There is no incentive at the current moment to actually PVP apart from building egos/laughing at new players trying to get started who have no experience PVP naving

What I want is an actual reason to PVP. Nothing wrong with actual PvP (though the board could be smaller and maybe should be breaks), I just have no reason to PVP hunt. Maybe if you received chests from your faction for winning then we can start talking but for now absolutely non.

Before people pipe up to me, I repeat. 0 incentive bar ego building.
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[Oct 13, 2017 8:55:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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I'll reiterate what I say to people:

There is no incentive at the current moment to actually PVP apart from building egos/laughing at new players trying to get started who have no experience PVP naving

What I want is an actual reason to PVP. Nothing wrong with actual PvP (though the board could be smaller and maybe should be breaks), I just have no reason to PVP hunt. Maybe if you received chests from your faction for winning then we can start talking but for now absolutely non.

Before people pipe up to me, I repeat. 0 incentive bar ego building.
100% of their booty is plenty of reason to attack. Imaging catching a SMH heading to port your 20-30 min battle collects there 3 hours of work. There is NO reason for the defender to do anything but run.

If one wanted to hit a merchant (I feel this to be wicked) one could steal their entire load. If someone is moving 500 rum from PV to one of the strong holds the motivation is 500 rum at 100poe ea only a 50k poe battle.

Or they were setting up their CIT run so its 1000 rum and 500 Med balls and now your at 150k payday, that is pretty nice pay for an hour's battle.

The issue is that its to lopsided if the ship attacking you is holding no valuable goods the risk doesn't meet the reward so anyone with out self worth issues will run.
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[Oct 13, 2017 12:11:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ZeroZiat

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Cutingchris wrote: 
What I want is an actual reason to PVP. Nothing wrong with actual PvP (though the board could be smaller and maybe should be breaks), I just have no reason to PVP hunt. Maybe if you received chests from your faction for winning then we can start talking but for now absolutely non.
PvP Bnav is also a two-player game. You could also want to see how you stack up competitively against someone else on the high seas. With the added incentive of a juicy prize. What you're expressing is rather a perspective issue. You're saying you see no incentive to ever do that, while someone else would, though. Personally I'm not good at bnav and I wouldn't really engage someone yet until I get good at it but I protect everybody else's right to do so.
Cutingchris wrote: 
There is no incentive at the current moment to actually PVP apart from building egos/laughing at new players trying to get started who have no experience PVP naving
Before people pipe up to me, I repeat. 0 incentive bar ego building.
...Who hurt you?
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged except Obsidian.
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[Edit 7 times, last edit by ZeroZiat at Oct 13, 2017 12:30:13 PM]
[Oct 13, 2017 12:18:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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I'll reiterate what I say to people:

There is no incentive at the current moment to actually PVP apart from building egos/laughing at new players trying to get started who have no experience PVP naving

Yeah you wrong tho. It's not done for ego building, it's done because we were told that PvP was half the point of the game. So that's what we're doing - playing it as it's meant to be played. Could there be more incentives? I guess - but it's wrong to say that all PvP is done for e-peen measuring and ruining the experience of voyages for new players.

What you probably mean is "I am not motivated enough to actively go out and hunt for PvP enounters". And that's fine. There will be players who actively PvP, and players who passively PvP. If everyone was out hunting all the time, that wouldn't exactly be an ideal situation either...

Plus even it was all about egos and e-peen, isn't that half of the game anyway? Stat whoring has been around since alpha.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Sagacious at Oct 13, 2017 3:32:29 PM]
[Oct 13, 2017 3:28:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cutingchris

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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Cutingchris wrote: 
What I want is an actual reason to PVP. Nothing wrong with actual PvP (though the board could be smaller and maybe should be breaks), I just have no reason to PVP hunt. Maybe if you received chests from your faction for winning then we can start talking but for now absolutely non.
PvP Bnav is also a two-player game. You could also want to see how you stack up competitively against someone else on the high seas. With the added incentive of a juicy prize. What you're expressing is rather a perspective issue. You're saying you see no incentive to ever do that, while someone else would, though. Personally I'm not good at bnav and I wouldn't really engage someone yet until I get good at it but I protect everybody else's right to do so.
Cutingchris wrote: 
There is no incentive at the current moment to actually PVP apart from building egos/laughing at new players trying to get started who have no experience PVP naving
Before people pipe up to me, I repeat. 0 incentive bar ego building.
...Who hurt you?


No-one hurt me, my PVP record on Obsidian right now is 100% win rate so
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[Oct 13, 2017 5:36:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ZeroZiat

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Yeah, I wasn't talking about the game. Your attitude in that post set a foot down on PvP being some terrible nefarious mechanic used to terrorize other players and make them feel bad about themselves. It's a PvP server. The OMs want us to make the best of it.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged except Obsidian.
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Tierios



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There is a reason to PVP - For every ship you sink, that's one less you'll have to face in kades, or one more they have to rebuild which takes away from their war chest. Its also because PVP provides some of the most adrenaline fuelling experiences, that risk of sinking makes it so much more intense.
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Scar On Obsidian Ocean
[Oct 15, 2017 6:33:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Factor93

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There is a reason to PVP - For every ship you sink, that's one less you'll have to face in kades, or one more they have to rebuild which takes away from their war chest. Its also because PVP provides some of the most adrenaline fuelling experiences, that risk of sinking makes it so much more intense.


I'm sure the opposing faction will be quaking in their boots when you sink one of their sloops and they can no longer blockade an island because their fleet of sloops is sunk. /s
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[Oct 15, 2017 7:03:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SeaGi

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Put a hard cap on the amount of damage a ship can take before sinking. Puzzling in battle should keep damage down on a ship or maybe from degrading further, but if a ships takes too many hits, its gonna sink. Maybe make it twice the max damage, but consider it cumulative.

For example, sloop max damage with small cb's is 6 to max, make it 12 to sink. If your nav'ing that sloop and you've been 11 times, you better either be throwing the hook before the next shot hits you, or thinking of an exit strategy.

A few automated warnings could be generated as the count remaining gets short.

That could shorten things considerably. Meh.
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"pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall" -Prov 16:18

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[Oct 16, 2017 11:12:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

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Put a hard cap on the amount of damage a ship can take before sinking. Puzzling in battle should keep damage down on a ship or maybe from degrading further, but if a ships takes too many hits, its gonna sink. Maybe make it twice the max damage, but consider it cumulative.

For example, sloop max damage with small cb's is 6 to max, make it 12 to sink. If your nav'ing that sloop and you've been 11 times, you better either be throwing the hook before the next shot hits you, or thinking of an exit strategy.

A few automated warnings could be generated as the count remaining gets short.

That could shorten things considerably. Meh.

The idea of ramping up the likelihood that ships sink (and the losses associated therein) is not going to come across as a good idea for people who are less enthusiastic about PvP.

This is fundamentally a terrible idea, because it simplifies it down to nothing more than BNav vs. BNav. It doesn't matter if my side has an outstanding Carpenter keeping the damage down - in your system, I still sink if the other side can deal more damage, and can prevent me from disengaging.

That doesn't improve the situation - it makes it worse.
[Oct 16, 2017 12:12:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SeaGi

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Meh. This was put forth as an alternative to a 75 minute marathon of tears and attrition where a viable strategy appears to be bore the other guys jobbers off their ship. Just a idea to break a stalemate, if ships cant take unlimited amounts of damage, eventually you'll have to run or grapple.
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"pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall" -Prov 16:18

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[Oct 16, 2017 3:53:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tierios



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Which is why I normally go for WB PVP's as continuous sinking of WB's can get expensive. I do however think there should be PVP breaks, similar to those in Sea monster hunts. As this would provide a much needed break for those long battles.
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Scar On Obsidian Ocean
[Oct 16, 2017 8:11:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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I'd prefer one of the earlier suggested shrinking bnav boards (either though the board literally losing its edges or CI-like fog coming in) or one of the other solutions (like in-pvp damage becoming harder to repair, maybe a percentage for every shot you've taken or something) over a hard "if you get shot for the 15th time your ship sinks no matter what".
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I think a "battle weariness" mechanic, where duty puzzles would produce progressively less "juju" to help the ship (though duty reports would be unaffected; this is similar to CI fog, SMH boarder sabotage, or rum sickness) after some amount of time, maybe 25-30 turns and progressively increasing thereafter, and/or scaling based on damage already taken, would go a long way to rebalance well-crewed 1v1 sea battle to make it less of a grind-fest, while still giving plenty of time for disengages. Though this suggestion is mainly for PvP, I think it may also be useful for the rare PvE encounter I sometimes get where the bots seem to be able to repair damage very quickly and keep moving 2-3 moves a turn, making it hard to safely go for the grapple even when they are well above maxed. (This seems to be more likely if the ship that engages you is of a similar size to you and you're well-crewed, rather than being bigger than you)
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[Edit 10 times, last edit by Rhoaleper at Oct 18, 2017 2:09:48 AM]
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Berrybrow



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Stock wood for carpenters.
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Filthyjake

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So I have been thinking about the sea bullies picking on the weaker ships. Yes the Black Ship can appear and take their goods. However if they were going for a easy sink wouldn't it make sense that the Black ship send them to the depths of the dark seas too?

Edit: In sinky waters only of course.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Filthyjake at Oct 19, 2017 8:48:31 PM]
[Oct 19, 2017 8:43:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hardrockjoe

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Is this thread still going on ?
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[Oct 20, 2017 4:52:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sulevaie

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To win a sinking pvp you only need to hit the enemy ship once every 10 turns.

What you do for the 4:30 in between hits is currently up to you.

As people get better and more experienced with battle navigation, sinking battles will get longer and longer. But they aren't going to mess with hard-coded disengage mechanics, so instead we need a solution that controls what a person does in that window between engagements.

Add breaks to everything, even normal battles for those new officers that get stuck in a whirlie and end up with a 15 minute battle.

I also like the idea of shrinking the board every X turns.
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MrSquiddy

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The incentive to PvP should be that you get to PvP.
The incentive to earn eights should be that you can buy rum and shot so you can PvP.
The incentive buy doubloons should be that you can buy ships so you can PvP.

For this to work, PvP needs to actually be fun. And EVERYBODY on the team should get to play against EVERYBODY on the other team.


1. The board should be 10x10.

2. Ships should automatically grapple after 15 turns.

2.5. Maybe increase the bilge factor so that carpenters and bilgers still matter.

3. Just before the fray, we should get 30 seconds to look at a combined duty report where we can see which ship had the better puzzlers.

4. If the option to run away is really, really, really important to game play, then put 1 "exit hole" in each side of the board. You have 4 turns find an exit. On turn 5, they all close.

I expected that the point of Beta Testing a PvP ocean would be to let the game designers try some ideas and see which ones lead to the most fun PvP system. I didn't come here for the depressingly dark graphics. I came here because I like team games.

Also, sinking is stupid:
"Let's play volleyball!"
"Sure!"
"And if our team wins, we'll burn down your gym!"
"... ?"


Anyway, if I'm ever navving against you and you want a grapple, send me a tell.


-- Squiddy, just looking for someone to play volleyball with
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Filthyjake

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1. The board should be 10x10.

2. Ships should automatically grapple after 15 turns.

2.5. Maybe increase the bilge factor so that carpenters and bilgers still matter.

3. Just before the fray, we should get 30 seconds to look at a combined duty report where we can see which ship had the better puzzlers.

4. If the option to run away is really, really, really important to game play, then put 1 "exit hole" in each side of the board. You have 4 turns find an exit. On turn 5, they all close.


I like the idea in general but a 10x10 board is a bit small, the 15 turn grapple is going to prevent sinking and the factions are at war not playing volleyball. 15 30 sec turns is a 7 minute battle most battles go for average of 10 with a grapple ending them. So the 15 turns could be doubled to 30 turns and the other issue is ship sizes.

I absolutely love the idea of seeing the dual duty report. The exit/safe-zone escape would be relay easy and fast so I like that as well down side is running it all-ready easy if not to easy and more would run.

I the pvp part of the game is fun in most cases but there are times where its not fun such as stock moves. Yet that is the nature of the game.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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[Nov 5, 2017 9:53:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MrSquiddy

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the factions are at war not playing volleyball.


I'm not at war with anyone. I don't log in so I can force people with sunshine by their names to capitulate and discuss terms that are favorable to people with dark moons. I log in to play with people I like. Whether they are on my ship or the other ship, they are making the game possible, and I am grateful.

When you win a war, the other side gives up and doesn't fight anymore. I want the other side to keep playing. I want PvP to be so much fun that the jobbers thank the opposing navver for attacking. I want it to be so much fun that people attack their own crew mates, just to brighten up their day.

 
Yet that is the nature of the game.


There are a few simple changes that could be implemented to change the nature of the game and make PvP more fun for everyone. They have been discussed in game design for 10 years. It's time to try some of them and see which ones work.

But if the developers won't fix it, we can fix it ourselves. We just need to agree on a time limit (or a hit limit) and then grapple to let the crews fight it out.

-- Squiddy, declaring volleyball on the Ocean
[Nov 6, 2017 7:54:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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the factions are at war not playing volleyball.


I'm not at war with anyone. ....


Its a Game mechanic its not really an option, I wish they had a neutral option but they do not. War

 
On Dark Seas oceans, the two factions are automatically in a permanent state of war.

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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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[Nov 6, 2017 6:44:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mouse2cat

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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I recently had a brutal experience with PVP
I am alone on my sloop, I was soloing and set to evade. I had no cannonballs stocked because I was memming and foraging.

I was attacked by another solo player the other day. This is all within the rules of the game.

As he engages I send him tells over and over to disengage. He sinks me while the whole time I beg him to stop. If this convo was taken out of context it could describe an assault (with one person begging the other to stop and him saying sorry too bad I don't care). It was deeply troubling as a female player and also totally allowed.

I understand the devs want PVP to be a part of the game but setting my ship to evade needs to make it harder to be attacked by bots AND players. Attacking ships that only have one pirate on board needs to be discouraged. Being alone in a PVP you don't want will never be fun.
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Crabcake on Emerald and Obsidian
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[Dec 31, 2017 11:48:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.skoonberg.com [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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needs to make it harder to be attacked by bots AND players.

It does. Players can't attack you if your dnav score is higher than theirs.

Not sure if I'd agree with specific rules against attacking solo players - in that case you just get everyone moving their stock/stuff solo because it's safer, and being alone should not be safer than being with others.
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TriplePat, Emerald.
[Dec 31, 2017 1:48:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: PVP and the Spirit of the Game Reply to this Post
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I recently had a brutal experience with PVP
I am alone on my sloop, I was soloing and set to evade. I had no cannonballs stocked because I was memming and foraging.


Sorry you had a bad experience.

When I used to play, i did a *lot* of solo trade runs. I *ALWAYS* carried about a dozen cannonballs, and usually either loaded them myself, or had a bot do it. A few cbs doesn't take up much room and it is amazing how much more cautious the other player gets when you shoot off even a single cb.

You really shouldn't have too much problem disengaging, you will need to be able to do that against brigands anyway.

I never tried talking with the other player, I'm usually way too busy trying to get my sailing indicator up and bnavving. All talking does is encourage the other player. I don't respond when they talk to me in part because I'm busy and in part to bore/frustrate them.

As mentioned above, dnavving well will help, but I gave up doing that since brigands seem to always eventually engage anyway.

PvP has been a legal, if not outright encouraged, part of the game on all oceans since the beta testing days. I doubt that GH/OOO will change that now.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Dec 31, 2017 4:36:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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