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Forums » List all forums » Forum: Obsidian Parley » Thread: Democracy and Stagnation, or how to give Power to the Greenie |
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Thread Status: Normal Total posts in this thread: 22 |
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Liberta7
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Many people argue and theorise over what exactly is causing the decline of Puzzle Pirates. I am here to express the reason why and how we can remedy it, with the reason being, stagnation. The current political scene, at least on Emerald (and soon to be Obsidian, which I will soon get to) is dominated by numerous small circles of wealthy elites. This is by no means a conspiracy, each flag is generally ruled by a group of experienced players with large sums of wealth and skill. This is hostile to new players for two reasons; one, the insular nature of these cliques means penetrating them and becoming one of them is difficult, and two, these elites have stored vast sums of wealth and power over many years that the new player simply cannot attain. Of course, a fresh slate like Obsidian would seem like it would alleviate this. With a lack of doubloon exchange that can interact with the other oceans, it seems like it would be an even playing field. Except, it isn't. While it's obvious that these old players would be more skilled from the start, some people seem to have overlooked the fact that these old players can get organised much, much quicker, especially since we have not hit official release yet. The most famous flag on Obsidian currently is populated by a crew that existed on Emerald and holds huge amounts of power on Emerald. Already, the elites are acting and seizing power as quickly as possible. However, I am not here to advocate an ocean wipe for official release. Instead, I'm here to address the systematic problems of crew structures to point out why the system stagnates and bloats with elitist cliques. First of all, we must look at what a crew is. By the way crews are treated by their captains and by people as a whole, one could almost think of it in a similar manner to their sword, pet or clothing. For some reason, a crew is viewed as property first, community second. It is for this reason that almost all crews are Autocratic, a captain is worried about potentially losing 'their property' to the members of the crew. Not only does this heavily reflect this concept of crew as property, but also shows the deep mistrust between the captain and his pirates. This attitude, is in my opinion, the rotten core of what causes elites to easily dominate everything. The very nature of viewing a crew as property means one aims to protect property from theft, meaning they shut off it's access from as many as they possibly can. It's similar to how one views their house, they only allow certain roommates and those they trust heavily. Except while that is apt for a personal living space, it is not apt for a crew. You see, a crew is not property. Captain is a position, not a mark of ownership. One should not be the 'master' of a crew. A crew should be a community, a collection of individuals working towards a common goal. The pirates should be active members of a crew, not tools to increase fame and to advertise pillages to. So what am I advocating? That we switch over to Democracy or Oligarchy? Well, not really. Before I delve into my solution, I must first make a distinction, which I call 'Mechanical Politcs' and 'Social Politics'. To me, Mechanical Politics are those that are coded into the game, with the three types being Democratic, Oligarchic and Autocratic. Social Politics on the other hand, are softer, simply being social rules we form among ourselves. To take an example, something like 'Don't call all hands.' would be a very crude sort part of social politics. I think the terms 'Hard Politcs' and 'Soft Politcs' would just as apt to refer to these systems. In terms of Mechanical Politcs, I see nothing wrong with something like Autocracy inherently. To me, these are tools to be used in relation with Social Politics. So instead, what I'm advocating is a radical switch in Social Politics. The aim of these radical changes is to involve the greenies, the outcasts and the unconnected with the politcal scene, causing the elites to be dependent on them and their interests. But what would this radical switch entail? The best course of action would be revolution. Revolution seems like an absurd concept, there is no 'Viva La Revolution!' button after all, but it is feasible. Currently as it stands, most low-ranking players are disorganised, but if they banded together, they could use their feet as a bargaining chip. If all the pirates and lower officers in a crew threaten to leave if the Captain does not relent to demands, then the elites will either have to relent, or they will be without manpower. This freshly organised group of pirates who have just left the crew could then go onto form their own crew, which would be under more democratic lines and thus inviting more people into them. But what do I mean by more democratic lines? What demands should they make? Well, I mean democratic in the sense of social politcs, not mechanical politcs. Everyone knows that direct democracy does not work for a crew due to lack of engaged interest, however, I believe a form of representative democracy would not only encourage pirates to engage in politcs, but also allow them to easily act within it without having to vote on issue after issue. Instead, they vote for who they want to be Captain. I could write on the ideal system of Representative Democracy and how to run a revolution, and I do intend to at some point, but this post has gone on for more than long enough. The details are not too important at this stage, but I am merely trying to open up the idea and spread the word. The vast majority of pirates, myself included, are not in the position of the elites. They are the ones who should fear us, they should be working within our demands, they should be empowered only by the will of the pirates in their crews. This is not communistic lunacy, nor am I raving anarchist spouting utopian nonsense. I am merely passionate about this game and passionate about those who play it, and I know that engaging others in the process of politics is the way forward. I'll finish this post by a quote from the King of Notorious Fandango, a revolutionary flag that was before my time. The final sentence I am most interested in, bolded here:
-S ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Liberta7 at Jul 16, 2017 3:37:49 PM] |
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superstarsam
Joined: Dec 9, 2005 Posts: 975 Status: Offline |
10/10 ---------------------------------------- Geologist - now exclusively |
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Spazspazspaz
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The political unit is the flag, not the crew. Change has come around through innovations in how flags have approached the game (Notorious Fandango being a good example), not crews. There has always been a broad spectrum of crew type and function so this is not exactly novel (or impactful). As far as any sweeping changes to the order of things, it will all always settle along similar lines following an upheaval - that's just the way it is. ---------------------------------------- Spacemonkey |
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Liberta7
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A crew is a politcal unit in the sense that it is a hierarchical structure. Although many crews are simply bands of friends acting together, many are not, and many are mixture with the ruling band of officers being a tightnit group of friends and the lesser ranked pirates being disconnected from this inner circle. I have been through a fair number of crews in my time and all pretty much follow a very similar system of an autocratic captain and his/her most trusted senior officers, with a very small minority being Oligarchic. Furthermore, meaningful impact in a crew is neccessary for meaningful impact in a flag. One attains status in a flag only after they've attained status in a crew, to disconnect the flag from the crew is disingenuous. -S ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Liberta7 at Jul 16, 2017 5:07:21 PM] |
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Hangmann
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Doesn't every pirate inherently vote on who they want to be captain by joining the crew of the captain they want to have including themselves as captain of their own crew? Virtually anyone can start a crew. ---------------------------------------- ~Thorek Senior Officer of the Serial Pillagers (Cobalt) |
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Gorillabuddy
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 Posts: 321 Status: Offline |
I think you have correctly diagnosed the problem, or at least one of the problems, but I don't really see your solution having much of an effect. There are 2 issues. First, the underlings don't care enough about what's going on in the upper echelons to revolt. Second, the underlings are easily replaceable, so the elites aren't going to care very much even if they do revolt. A couple possible mechanics that could fix this: 1. Distribute some amount of flag revenue to all members of the flag, or perhaps all crews of the flag, who in turn divvy it how they wish. This would give underlings a desire for a bigger cut, 1 more reason to revolt. 2. Only allow members of the flag or members of directly allied flags to participate in blockades. This would create lots of pressure on the elites to keep as many active, skilled, and interested players in their flags as possible, if they want to be part of the kade game. Alternatively, allow jobbing in kades, but have a big efficiency penalty for hiring jobbers not connected to the flag (mercenaries). That is, if you want to pay them 2k per seg, you pay 4k and 2k goes to them and 2k gets sunk, or something like that. This would have a similar but less extreme effect. ---------------------------------------- Pliskin of Cerulean Avatar by Cattrin |
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Sovereignty
 Joined: Jul 16, 2005 Posts: 83 Status: Offline |
I'm with Gorillabuddy on this issue. At this point in the games lifespan a "social policy" change isn't gonna fix it. There needs to be a change to how the upper level of the game is played and a mechanical solution is going to actually yield results. Especially considering a bunch of the OP's social change suggestions really heavily rely on the lesser parts of a crew (and by extension flag) all rallying together. Sounds like it'd be something that would almost never happen, and even if it did would be done more-so to troll than anything. |
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Liberta7
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That's denying the actual circumstances though, new players, those with few hearties and many others are simply too disconnected to organise on a meaningful level. I do advocate voting with your feet; as in leaving dictatorial crews en masse, but lone pirates dropping of to try and fail to make their own crews won't solve anything.
They only don't care because they lack the knowledge and agitation to care. Many would probably love to be properly involved with a crew once they found out how fun it can be to interact with crew/flag politics. That's where I come in here, I'm trying to raise the issue so the underlings do begin to care more, they'll care more through awareness. As for them being easily replaceable, that would be apt if this was a small scale thing I'm advocating. Instead, I'm talking about mass exodus and revolution. Keep in mind too that I'm not simply saying for all the low-ranking pirates to just ditch the crew, I'm advocating that they then organise into their own more democratic crews that would have the manpower to challenge the status quo. It's not just about depriving the elites of their manpower, it's about organising their former manpower into a sledgehammer to smash the elites powerbase.
I am sympathetic to the idea of mechanical changes, I just don't think we can hinge our hope on them too much as the developers often seem to be wary of radical changes (though Obsidian is supposed to be the more radical Ocean, so who knows). I think the latter option, forcing flags to only use flag members might be the ideal choice, as it allows them to be flexible with what incentive they choose. Though it would fall prey to people having blockade alts that temporarily join crews. Another mechanical change that could be interesting is diversifying the range of mechanical politics available to crews, rather than just sticking to Democratic, Oligarchic and Autocratic. Perhaps allow certain issues to be voted on while others are controlled autocratically (so there might be a check box for each type of issue, in which you can apply either Democratic, Oligarchic or Autocratic control to), and perhaps we could have a voting system where votes on issues end after a certain time and don't need a full crew majority to be passed.
Keep in mind that my change only requires such mass organisation for a short period of time, after a revolution a pirate would only have to simply vote. They would not need to keep a keen and active interest in politics if they don't want to, but the option would be there unlike now. Even if they were rallied around trolling, it could still yield the result I am advocating. People don't need to be in constant mass movement for democracy to work, we just need it to overthrow the current powerbase. -S ---------------------------------------- [Edit 2 times, last edit by Liberta7 at Jul 17, 2017 4:21:02 AM] |
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Shinito
Joined: Jan 3, 2006 Posts: 588 Status: Offline |
I think part of the issue is that crews are pretty worthless as a a social structure. It offers nothing more than a chat channel and some ships (99% of which are locked in obsidian) and most players are simply forced into them for the privilege of sailing a ship. Notice board effectively blurs the line between jobber and a crew member when running pillages and FO rank removes a lot trust requirements when promoting people. My suggestion would be to add incentives to being in a good crew and to force crews into specialising. Tax notice board usage, add crew banks (along with crew taxes), add systems for crew shoppes and allow them to more easily move goods between them and so on... As long as crews remain amorphous blobs that exist to perpetuate themselves nothing will change. ---------------------------------------- Thorkill on |
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majestrate
Joined: Feb 18, 2005 Posts: 3958 Status: Offline |
Has anyone tested to see if an Officer (not FO/SO) can take a "Crew Use" ship into the dangerous waters? I mean, based on the ship alerts, I am assuming that they can, but better to verify, right? I say that to say this, if an Officer can take a "Crew Use" ship into a sinking environment (PvP can be sinking), then most of that FO trust now moves back down to Officer (they can't manipulate the hold, but they can still sink your ship if they wanted to and it was set to "Crew Use") ---------------------------------------- #TeamEvil
Avatar by the gracious and wonderful Phaerie <3 |
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Scarpath
Joined: Sep 7, 2014 Posts: 246 Status: Offline |
Well, I think it would take more than just the greenies to start something like this, if it were just done through social structure. I think if a few of the older players who were fed up with the system broke off and started a crew, getting it up to decent size, before making a flag, it might just work. However, just talking about this won't do a thing. If you truly want to inspire change, you must make it happen yourself, or work together with others to make it possible. If you truly want to put this forward, then I would be willing to make a crew. I can not be very active at this time, however, as I am in the process of moving. I would need a few people to help with the recruiting process. The crew, of course, would be democratic. If/when we get to making a flag, I would suggest that all crews in the flag be democratic or oligarchic. One thing I do find annoying is that flag politics can't be similar to crew politics. I'd love to have all SOs in the flag vote for a new royal. Either way, if you do actually want to start a democratic crew, a crew that listens to the little guy, post here. If enough of you speak up, I'll make the crew and get all of you in. Then we can vote up our officers and everything- I'm sure it would be a blast to have more large democratic crews out there. I wouldn't have to be captain, either, I'm just putting this forward so we can DO something with these ideas. If someone else want's to be captain, then by all means! I hate the price of the badge XD ---------------------------------------- Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian! Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core. Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent! |
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Liberta7
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I actually agree with this, greenies and newer players will just stand to benefit a lot from this, but older players would be needed to push it forward as they have an understanding of how it all works.
I'd happily help you start up a democratic crew, though I think sticking it to oligarchic and voting for certain issues informally would be a better way to do it, as the mechanical democracy as it stands is simply too slow in many respects, as it requires an exact majority of pirates rather than a majority of voters after a period of time. I haven't thought too much about flag politics, but I think the crews would have to be democratic. Tyrannical bootlickers ain't welcome. ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Liberta7 at Jul 19, 2017 10:05:23 PM] |
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tkp42
Joined: Dec 7, 2003 Posts: 1191 Status: Offline |
tl;dr version: (1) no poker & (2) regular ocean wipes I remember politics before poker, and back then, the best way to earn money for blockading, etc., was to pillage and you know, do the damn puzzles. After poker, many of the "elites" quickly became expert poker players who earned more money just sitting there than they ever could have pillaging. For me, that's when the social divide widened into a Grand Canyon sized gap. Many of us have said this before, and I'll say it again: Get rid of poker. Increase the payouts or whatever carrots you can dangle to encourage more pillaging. Increase the rewards for PvPs. And just generally do what the hype for Obsidian claims, and make the ocean more temporary. Just look at the absolute mess Admiral has become. It was bad years ago, and now the island is so crammed you can't even find the bazaars amidst all the shoppes. Make this ocean a temporary, ever-changing place. Reset the world. Just ctrl+z the whole damn thing every so often, which would force people to restart and try new strategies for acquiring enough wealth to blockade. In fact, when a new flag takes an island, RAZE THE ISLAND. After all, that's the piratey thing to do. Burn the mother to the ground. And if a flag drops and then doesn't show up, penalize them. I'm sick of blockades ending early because the stupid challenger dropped out because they couldn't survive a single round. Oh, wait... that takes us back to the original problem, doesn't it? You can't improve your bnav if you earn cade money playing damn poker. Bad bnav = bad cades. Bad cades = boring ocean. Boring ocean = bye-bye player base. This is one of those circular problems, but I'm sure I'm not the only ancient player to long for the days before poker. Poker ruined the game. ---------------------------------------- Tonya+nator Claiming poker ruined the game since 2006 |
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GreatBob
Joined: Sep 3, 2005 Posts: 1465 Status: Offline |
Hey, we won. Poker get nerfed hard enough it might as well have been removed. Large islands are limited to 10 shoppes, which can be shut down by governors. Give us an AI that plays by the rules and pillaging will end up at it's rightful place, the top of activity choices. ---------------------------------------- Penguinpaste, SO of Polaris, Obsidian. Dark side. Avatar by Phaerie. |
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zanreth
 Joined: May 26, 2007 Posts: 236 Status: Offline |
The AI is not the problem. SMH hunts (with the exception of Haunted Seas, which appears to be truly awful to my limited experience) simply pay out disproportionately more than pillages. This might have made sense on other oceans where the risk of sinking justified a higher booty, but now the risk of sinking exists everywhere because of pvp. I don't think the problem is too bad. I do think that it is a rare pillage that can match a Citadel Run for booty. ---------------------------------------- Albert, Obsidian, Defiant Armada Calicojack, Emerald |
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agent_cain
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Kind of funny that Obsidian's most famous crew and flag are more or less filled with the Hunter elite. The Sage elite (I prefer to call them legends actually) retired ages ago. Pretty sad if you ask me. |
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tkp42
Joined: Dec 7, 2003 Posts: 1191 Status: Offline |
I plan on checking out Obsidian for real this afternoon since I'm able to leave work early today. :) My stats will be basic bitch level, so we'll see how I'm treated. ---------------------------------------- Tonya+nator Claiming poker ruined the game since 2006 |
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Zava
Joined: Feb 11, 2005 Posts: 795 Status: Offline |
Anybody you're missing in particular? Perhaps one of us old salts can ping them elsewhere. ---------------------------------------- Zava, Obsidian & Sage. Vodoodude tells ye, "wow yer a life saver" ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Zava at Jul 21, 2017 7:43:23 PM] |
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agent_cain
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Unfortunately I can't really remember any names now but 2008-2011 was definitely a time where people did Atlantis mainly to sink monsters (with the occasional citadel here and there). All in all, a lot of activity in a lot of things. Politics, while competitive, felt a lot more friendly and light-hearted than the flags we see now on Emerald. Who could forget the time where Subtle Tease did 100% taxes on Admiral and the time where some other flag that over built Admiral to mess it is now. I've been retired (more or less) for almost 2 years now so my memory is pretty hazy. What I can say is that 2008-2011 was a period where people cared more about your actual skill rather than how rich you were. Sadly, with a lot of old players retiring and everything just becoming so expensive money really does most of the talking nowadays. Obviously I'm stuck in the past but in all honestly those years were the years where you actually felt that your hard work meant something. Something that earned respect from the elite. Perhaps that's a quality that YPP has lost over the years, but again, I'm not sure. Just my thoughts |
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cmdrzoom
Joined: Jul 25, 2003 Posts: 7328 Status: Offline |
There's an old saying (Ranum's Law) regarding these matters: "You can't solve social problems with software." ---------------------------------------- Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt |
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tkp42
Joined: Dec 7, 2003 Posts: 1191 Status: Offline |
But you can try by piratifying the scuppering cursewords. ;) ---------------------------------------- Tonya+nator Claiming poker ruined the game since 2006 |
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Scarpath
Joined: Sep 7, 2014 Posts: 246 Status: Offline |
Speed isn't the issue here. The issue is that FOs and SOs are often picked by a captain who might not even be on very often. It might not be as fast to get the issues up, but as those higher in the ranks, we would need to trust the lower ranked pirates. Have a little more faith. And for gosh sakes, some of my best crewmates have never wanted to be above the pirate rank, and I would love a crew that lets them have a say in everything. ---------------------------------------- Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian! Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core. Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent! |
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