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GreatBob

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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majestrate wrote: 
 
I think you're framing the situation incorrectly. The ship with 200,000 poe would be risking a lot if they came into the situation on the same terms as the pvper, but they aren't. They only risk their poe if a pvper happens to come along, which is very rare, at least at the moment. The pvper is always risking their time.

So, you spend 2+ hours leading a KH run. I spend 20 minutes randomly checking to see if you've set sail back to port. Once I see that you have headed back in, I PvP you, manage to grapple you, and win the melee. You and I are in different factions, so we're automatically at war. Now I take everything in your booty and your hold except some rum.

You're trying to tell me that your 2+ hours of game time is worth nothing but my 30-40 minutes of time invested in a PvP is worth something?

That makes no sense. If time investment is a measurable value to be considered for risk assessment for one player, then it is a measurable value for all players involved in the overall risk vs reward scenario.

 
There is basically no risk in KH. The only risk is a pvper coming to steal their booty. Some runs are better than others, but they're almost certainly going to make money every time, and over 2 hours it'll average out well enough. With pillies and CI there's more variance, but you'll also make money the vast majority of the time.

But let's just stick with the KH example. The KH makes 50k per half hour, and has a more or less negligible risk of someone coming to steal it.

A pvper can steal half of that, if they win a battle. So if they want to break even with a KH output, they need to intercept, battle, and win half the time in the course of 30 minutes. 100k half the time and 0k half the time averages out to 50k.

Now if you want to be able to do that in 30 minutes, you need to do 2 major things. First, you need enough people to help you on short notice so that you can engage the KH ship and win a SF (so at least 3 other people, preferably more). Second, you need to have a target ready. This is rather difficult, as KH ships are completely safe unless they're heading to or from port. You also probably don't know when they're heading back to port unless you're familiar with their schedule or have a spy.

Some of this can be avoided by doing something yourself while waiting for a target, such as pillying nearby or even running your own KH, but that does reduce your odds of being able to intercept them, since you'll be busy a lot of the time and not necessarily ready when the opportunity strikes.

Even not taking all that into account, I don't think most people can win a pvp 50% of the time if the other ship is trying to get away.

Basically I don't think it's worth anybody's time to purposely go out and pvp. Maybe give it a shot if you happen to stroll by someone on the way out of a KH, but otherwise it's too much of a time waster.

You're completely out of touch with what's happening on Obsidian right now. And you're completely missing my point.

My desire is making PvP enticing enough to a defender to keep them from running from a battle. I don't know of any player who is heading to port from a voyage that is going to say "oh, the people attacking me may have invested a lot of time in their endeavor to PvP me, I think I'll risk everything in my booty/hold on a PvP that is unlikely to pay me anything tangible".


How about:

1. Lower the max damage level OR have damage be the result of the score difference, not total score. A 4-3 battle would give the ship hit 4 times one line (assuming sloop v sloop).

2. The better the defender does in the melee, the less booty is taken. This simulates knocked out attackers not being able to grab booty.

3. If the defenders win, they keep the attacking ship. Does not work in reverse.

4. If the defender is sunk, an expedition is generated for them (on a new ship) to go and retrieve their booty. This one might be difficult to implement, but gives another chance to get their booty home.

An alternate solution to number 2 could be to use the greedy mechanic for plundering the booty, with after-battle winnings only coming from the hold.
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[Jul 17, 2017 11:33:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gorillabuddy

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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You and I are in different factions, so we're automatically at war. Now I take everything in your booty and your hold except some rum.


I didn't realize warring factions took everything. That does change things, but not enough imo. You still need at least a 25% success rate in your half hour of work to equal 2 hours of KH. Maybe the best pvpers could do that but with the other ship trying to escape, I don't think you're likely to reach that success rate.

 
You're trying to tell me that your 2+ hours of game time is worth nothing but my 30-40 minutes of time invested in a PvP is worth something? That makes no sense. If time investment is a measurable value to be considered for risk assessment for one player, then it is a measurable value for all players involved in the overall risk vs reward scenario.


I'm saying that the risk in a KH is far lower than the risk for the pvper. When a KHer sets sail, they have, let's say, a 1% risk of losing their 2 hours of work to a pvper, which is pretty much negligible in the grand scheme of things. Most of the time a pvper is not going to attack them, and even when they do, they have a good chance of escaping.

When a pvper sets out to attack a KHer, they have a large risk of wasting their time. I don't know what the statistics are, but I would think they're well over 50%, perhaps even 75%+.

 
You're completely out of touch with what's happening on Obsidian right now.


Please show me how. Is there some scourge of pvpers I don't know about?

 
My desire is making PvP enticing enough to a defender to keep them from running from a battle. I don't know of any player who is heading to port from a voyage that is going to say "oh, the people attacking me may have invested a lot of time in their endeavor to PvP me, I think I'll risk everything in my booty/hold on a PvP that is unlikely to pay me anything tangible".


I agree. However I don't think your proposed solution would do anything about that. If I'm a KHer and you pvp me,

1. I have more to lose

2. I'm probably at a disadvantage since you probably have a crew that you expect to win a battle with, whereas I have people good at KHing and not necessarily good at pvping.

Therefore, I'm obviously going to run. The only way I wouldn't run is if the first or second point changed. The 2nd obviously isn't going to, so I'd only stay if I actually had more to gain than lose. But it wouldn't make any sense for the pvper to risk that much.

So unless someone has a creative work around to this, we should just operate around the idea that defenders will always try to escape, at least in these types of situations.

We basically have 2 completely different pvp situations that we need to consider separately. One where the defender is trying to escape, and one where both sides are trying to win the fight. I don't think it's wise to view them the same way.
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[Jul 18, 2017 8:06:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Maybe if winning a PvP battle grapple actually increased a pillages booty ramp


Very easily abused using alts.


Abuse of this could be stopped quite easily if it was done correctly.

1. The amount of booty ramp be dependent on the amount of pirates on the opposing ship in comparison to your own.

2. The amount of booty ramp changes depending on the skill/experience of opposing crew.

If these were implenented and it was made so that if a small sloop beat another small sloop that had no experience then the booty ramp would be way less than heating a bot. But if you were on a sloop of 6 and you sunk a sloop of 7 with highly experienced pirates with high levels of skill then the booty ramp could be say 5x that of a bot.

In the latter case it would be very hard for it to be cheated; firstly you'd need a lot of good alts, and secondly if someone would need to have filled there own ship with amazing alts and be willing to have it sunk.

Of course if the number of pirates/skill/experience had no bearing on the booty ramp it would be abused.


It's incredibly easy to hyper-rank puzzles, so skill isn't really a problem to get. Focusing on experience would just mean people using friends to boost ramps. Although I'll admit using alts won't be so much of a problem once Dark Seas goes steam exclusive.

For this to work it would need to also have a cool-down, similar to Swordfighting and Rumble wherein following battles against any of the same pirates a change in booty ramp wouldn't occur. Even then it's easily manipulated to get a second battle once you know that ranked limits reset around the hour.
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[Jul 18, 2017 8:16:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Discflicker

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Total aside (just don't feel like this is worth it's own thread) the only way to get rumble in PVP right now is to have both ships set to hunt Barbs. I recommend switching this to "if one ship is out-dnavving the other and has barbs set, then rumble". It's too hard to get PVP rumble otherwise, which kind of defeats the purpose of rumble as an alternative to swordfighting (within the context of PVP).
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[Jul 18, 2017 10:28:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shinito

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Total aside (just don't feel like this is worth it's own thread) the only way to get rumble in PVP right now is to have both ships set to hunt Barbs. I recommend switching this to "if one ship is out-dnavving the other and has barbs set, then rumble". It's too hard to get PVP rumble otherwise, which kind of defeats the purpose of rumble as an alternative to swordfighting (within the context of PVP).

actually rumble is bad so not having to play it is good
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[Jul 18, 2017 10:34:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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You and I are in different factions, so we're automatically at war. Now I take everything in your booty and your hold except some rum.


I didn't realize warring factions took everything. That does change things, but not enough imo. You still need at least a 25% success rate in your half hour of work to equal 2 hours of KH. Maybe the best pvpers could do that but with the other ship trying to escape, I don't think you're likely to reach that success rate.

 
You're trying to tell me that your 2+ hours of game time is worth nothing but my 30-40 minutes of time invested in a PvP is worth something? That makes no sense. If time investment is a measurable value to be considered for risk assessment for one player, then it is a measurable value for all players involved in the overall risk vs reward scenario.


I'm saying that the risk in a KH is far lower than the risk for the pvper. When a KHer sets sail, they have, let's say, a 1% risk of losing their 2 hours of work to a pvper, which is pretty much negligible in the grand scheme of things. Most of the time a pvper is not going to attack them, and even when they do, they have a good chance of escaping.

When a pvper sets out to attack a KHer, they have a large risk of wasting their time. I don't know what the statistics are, but I would think they're well over 50%, perhaps even 75%+.

 
You're completely out of touch with what's happening on Obsidian right now.


Please show me how. Is there some scourge of pvpers I don't know about?

 
My desire is making PvP enticing enough to a defender to keep them from running from a battle. I don't know of any player who is heading to port from a voyage that is going to say "oh, the people attacking me may have invested a lot of time in their endeavor to PvP me, I think I'll risk everything in my booty/hold on a PvP that is unlikely to pay me anything tangible".


I agree. However I don't think your proposed solution would do anything about that. If I'm a KHer and you pvp me,

1. I have more to lose

2. I'm probably at a disadvantage since you probably have a crew that you expect to win a battle with, whereas I have people good at KHing and not necessarily good at pvping.

Therefore, I'm obviously going to run. The only way I wouldn't run is if the first or second point changed. The 2nd obviously isn't going to, so I'd only stay if I actually had more to gain than lose. But it wouldn't make any sense for the pvper to risk that much.

So unless someone has a creative work around to this, we should just operate around the idea that defenders will always try to escape, at least in these types of situations.

We basically have 2 completely different pvp situations that we need to consider separately. One where the defender is trying to escape, and one where both sides are trying to win the fight. I don't think it's wise to view them the same way.

First, what if we're talking about an Atlantis, Haunted Seas, or CI SMH? There is definitely risk in those voyages.

Second, you need to disassociate KH risk and PvP risk. KH is its own thing (I've stated before that KH needs risk added to it, at least in the form of eights/doubloon sinks) and PvP is its own thing.

Regardless of how my voyage amassed a decent sized booty, the point is that in terms of tangible items of value (eights/chests/lockers/eggs/whatever) the attacker can risk some cannonballs and rum while the defender risks their hold and booty. The attacker can win <stuffs> with which to pay their jobbers for the battle. The defender gets very little with which to pay their jobbers for the added battle. It's like going on a pillage, getting attacked by NPPs, winning the melee, and getting some shot and rum, but knowing that if you lose, you are going to have a sizable amount of your booty/hold items removed.

If I were coming out of a KH and I had a decent haul after 4 or 5 dips (60+ eggs), I wouldn't have a problem fighting in a PvP as long as I knew that the attacking ship had something in the booty/hold worth risking my treasures for. If it were a pillage that I got PvP on, I'd risk it no matter what (as long as we don't have any lavish lockers in the booty), because I can replace any eights that I might lose. I can't do that with non-eights winnings.

I disagree with your threes statements. PvP is already incentivized for the attacker, now it needs to be incentivized for the defender. If one side has to risk something tangible (please do not go down the "time is money" path again) in a PvP encounter, then the other side should have to do the same.

If you do not agree with that, then let's play some hands of poker where you always have to go all-in while I only have to match 1% of your all-ins in order for it to be a "call". Once I've drained your eights from you, then you can tell me how fair it is for one side to risk very little while the other side risks a heck of a lot.

In the end, all I'm saying is that if one side has to risk 100k, then the other side should have to risk at least 60-70k (more would be better).

 
 
You're completely out of touch with what's happening on Obsidian right now.


Please show me how. Is there some scourge of pvpers I don't know about?

I wouldn't call any of them scourge. There is nothing that requires players to risk anything in order to attack other players returning from a pillage or SMH.

I certainly don't think less of anyone in my flag for not putting their eights/additional stock at risk. Nor do I think less of anyone in the SF faction for doing the same thing.

I simply believe that the game should be altered so that attackers have to put something of value at risk as a reward (carrot?) to the ships they are attacking.

Maybe crews should have a PvP fund. Something that they cannot withdraw from, but they can add to if they want. Maybe allow a certain percentage of crew cut to go to the PvP fund (0-xx%?). Then, when crews PvP each other, a win pulls a much smaller percentage of the hold/booty (10-15%?) but it pulls 50-75% of the PvP fund?
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[Jul 18, 2017 12:40:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Total aside (just don't feel like this is worth it's own thread) the only way to get rumble in PVP right now is to have both ships set to hunt Barbs. I recommend switching this to "if one ship is out-dnavving the other and has barbs set, then rumble". It's too hard to get PVP rumble otherwise, which kind of defeats the purpose of rumble as an alternative to swordfighting (within the context of PVP).

actually rumble is bad so not having to play it is good

#ForumMute #RumbleRocks #SwordfightsAreForLameTeamPurplers
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[Jul 18, 2017 12:42:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Gorillabuddy

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Maybe crews should have a PvP fund. Something that they cannot withdraw from, but they can add to if they want. Maybe allow a certain percentage of crew cut to go to the PvP fund (0-xx%?). Then, when crews PvP each other, a win pulls a much smaller percentage of the hold/booty (10-15%?) but it pulls 50-75% of the PvP fund?


I'm just going to focus on this since I don't think the rest of our conversation is going anywhere.

I think you have a good idea with the pvp fund, but I'd like to offer a tweak.

Have some percentage of faction revenue go towards a bounty fund. Doesn't have to be much, maybe 1 or 2 %. Then offer a portion of this to pvp members of the other faction. If they're a crew with a low pvp rating, then the bounty will be decent but nothing spectacular, maybe like 20k (or some percentage of the bounty fund). If it's a crew that's been pvping the crap out of your faction, then they can develop a big bounty, maybe even in the 100s of thousands of poe. People would then hunt them down, and if they engaged you, you'd have a big incentive to fight back, even though it'd be risky.
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[Jul 18, 2017 1:08:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
gish19



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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Hello! Long time lurker, first time poster.

I think if the new ocean is stressing PvP, it doesn't have to have symmetrical benefits for both the attackers and defenders.

The point of PvP is to create a larger sense of danger in the ocean; just because a defender might have more to lose, doesn't mean PvP shouldn't exist, or shouldn't be profitable. If the risk of the KH goes up too much because of the risk returning to port, then increase the reward of the KH.

Mechanically, this cat and mouse chase could be amped up in a few ways though.

I think there should be added difficulty in tracking down ships, although that may be a difficult mechanic to implement. You could also have more ways to allow defenders to avoid PvP, such as having multiple paths to the same islands.

Alternatively, there could be better ways to have back up defenders, but this mercenary defence would have to have a way to split the defenders' booty at the end of the voyage.

All in all, I don't think PvP should be an activity in the way a SMH is; it should be a fear, and when you succeed, a reward.
[Jul 18, 2017 9:47:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Hello! Long time lurker, first time poster.

I think if the new ocean is stressing PvP, it doesn't have to have symmetrical benefits for both the attackers and defenders.

The point of PvP is to create a larger sense of danger in the ocean; just because a defender might have more to lose, doesn't mean PvP shouldn't exist, or shouldn't be profitable. If the risk of the KH goes up too much because of the risk returning to port, then increase the reward of the KH.

What about other SMHs? We focused on KH because that has been the active one. But with Atlantis now being active, the same can happen there too. What about if the attackers are simply hunting pillagers that have been out for more than an hour or two?

IMO, increasing payouts is not a solution that promotes defenders to do anything in a PvP except run.

 
All in all, I don't think PvP should be an activity in the way a SMH is; it should be a fear, and when you succeed, a reward.

If an attacker can engage you with nothing but 20 rum and 50 cbs, where's the reward for the defenders if they succeed in beating the attackers via melee instead of running?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by majestrate at Jul 18, 2017 9:59:33 PM]
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Onelegstan



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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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I see what you are saying with it being more dangerous, but this doesn't stop the defender from just running when they have nothing to gain.

The best few suggestions so far in my opinion are:

1. Make the attacker have to risk something (a proportion of the wealth on the defender)

2. Make the board smaller and the ships start closer.

3. Allow some sort of tracking to make it easier for attackers to engage

4. Make cannon hits 'knock off' booty from the other ship that is treasure hauled after the battle. A disengage means this all disappears.

5. Some sort of dub reduction for cost of ships that arising specifically from PvPs. This would mean that pay to win players that have no PvPers have a much higher cost for ships than active PvPers. If this game is to carry on it needs to move away from pay to win IMO.
You sink a ship in PvP? You can build that same ship for half the delivery cost of normal.

6. Allow treasure haul when a ship is sunk!!! Because right now there is no incentive to sink anyone with a lot of booty!

These suggestions imo would help make PvP seem more rewardable, while meaning running and disengaging as a defender isn't the best option!
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BobJanova

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Defenders with good booty will always try to run. Attackers get to choose the engagement they want to take so they will always take one that is unbalanced in their favour. That's true in Eve which is the template for the kind of ocean we're trying to create here, I think. Some of the ideas to increase the value to the defenders are interesting, but ultimately if you force attackers to put up enough so the fight is in the defenders' favour, no-one will ever attack and you kill PVP.

Defenders have a vast array of countermeasures to avoid PVP in the first place. Dnav well, have a scout ship in front of you, watch the radar, use quiet parts of the ocean. Getting caught is part of the risk of the unsafe waters, and once you have been caught, attackers should stand a reasonable chance of completing the engagement.

At the moment, trying to play as a PVPer is completely pointless. You get almost no engagements, and those that you do get will run and disengage. If you actually manage to grapple someone and win, most of the time you don't get anything worthwhile. It is incentives to attack, and making it harder to disengage, that we need.
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[Jul 19, 2017 4:48:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
GreatBob

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In addition to my previous suggestions, how about we break /vwho for ships in certain areas? Certainly in the wild areas, and maybe even in opposing faction areas.

One possible way of implementing this would be to only update the location information when ships pass inhabited islands.
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Jutecloth

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I'd like to sketch out something.

Attackers can buy a new magic item for their ship. In PvP sea battle, this item generates an effect like the fog in Cursed Isles around the edge of the board, a few tiles deep. So, something like: puzzling is less productive and carp and bilge trickle rates increase in the affected zone. The zone could be represented as choppy seas or an electrical storm or anything, really (preferably not a pestilential miasma) but the upshot is a smaller "normal" sea battle board for PvP, with a surrounding area in which neither ship can linger. There's lots of options and variables to fine-tune the idea (it could get more severe the further you stray from the center, for example) but that's the gist.

The downside of the attacker's item is that it is expensive and if the attacker loses the battle, the defender always loots the item. (Bots never take it.) The item could be an enchanted Jolly Roger or a weird idol, but again, the exact form isn't important for judging the general idea. (I mean, it could be an eldritch piggy bank full of PoE that bots are too frightened to smash.) Basically, if the defender wins, he gains.

So, it will be more challenging for a defender to simply run away without having to outmaneuver the attacker, and the state of the board will tell him that there is a prize if he wants to fight.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Jutecloth at Jul 20, 2017 4:23:56 PM]
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Gorillabuddy

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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In addition to my previous suggestions, how about we break /vwho for ships in certain areas? Certainly in the wild areas, and maybe even in opposing faction areas.

One possible way of implementing this would be to only update the location information when ships pass inhabited islands.


I kind of like this from a flavor perspective, but wouldn't this have the effect of reducing pvp?
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Pliskin of Cerulean

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Snuby

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Can we also take a look at the inn snitches?
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