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Onelegstan



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Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Just a few suggestions from me:

1. This style of PvP game along with the new change meaning no furniture etc can be won from SMH means that there is going to be a way higher dub sink compared to normal. At this rate dub prices will rise and eventually max out.
My suggestion to counter this is to reduce the cost of delivering items such as ships, furniture etc. (Maybe a Poe sink tax on these items as to make up for park of the delivery reduction cost)

2. When you sink an enemy ship in PvP, the owner of the winning ship should receive a token that allows them 50% or 75% reduction on dub delivery cost of the exact same ship. (e.g. A sloop sinks a cutter in PvP, vessel owner gets a token which allows 75% less dub delivery cost on the same boat).
This would mean that people actually want to go out and PvP, rather than there being little to no reward anyway; and as the token has to be used to build the same type of ship that was sunk, it would have been paid for in full dub cost the first time it was delivered anyway.
AS WELL AS PROMOTING PVP ON THE 'PVP OCEAN'

3. When an enemy ship is sunk in PvP, a poe based reward is added to the booty of the winning ship. Several factors would determine how much is rewarded:
- The number of players on the ship that was sunk.
- The amount of the colonised islands owned by the faction of the ship that was sunk. (E.g if the sunk ship was part of the faction that had 70% of the ocean then the reward is considerably higher than if it was part of the faction that owed 30%)
- The PvP 'skill' of the opposing crew. If the crew had a perfect PvP record and then they lost, the winning ship gets a higher payout than if the crew loses all their PvP battles.

By implementing this, it would try and balance out any disadvantage of being part of a smaller crew on the smaller faction that has the least control of the ocean.
AS WELL AS PROMOTING PVP ON THE 'PVP OCEAN'

4. No gold boxes or any of the doubloon box promotions should contain any ships larger than a WB until such time that these same ships can be built by shop owners on the game. Otherwise it really is just pay to win.

5. I like the idea of island owners being able to close down shops, but I think the fact that a new owner could take over and in 1 go close down all the shops a bit crazy.
A better alternative would be the island owner being able to start closing 2 shops within a 7 day period, none of which can be the same type of shop.
This will balance out the new rules a bit more, meaning there is slightly more of a chance of you keeping your shop than all being closed at once.
I think 2 a week is a good number, because that is the amount of shops that a governor is allowed to build in any given week (well it was on the other oceans)

These are just a few of my thoughts!
Marty
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[Jul 16, 2017 3:23:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Anemois



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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Hey,

I wanted to elaborate on your third point, as I find it very important to keep the fun up for every party in PvP Sinking.

As the system stands right now only the few elite snobs of the ocean go to hunt for others because of personal grudges. But the normal player actually has no reason to put his ship on the line for...hurting someone else and nothing beyond that? There's no real value to be found except taking the ship of another which promotes pretty toxic gameplay in my opinion. It more or less just scares the weaker players away from what you actually want to promote if there's no real incentive to sink others.

Ensuring that the winning vessel can for example haul the sunk ship booty (or maybe a bounty of amount XXXXX paid by the faction depending on how big the ship was?) would help a great deal to promote PvP's between everyone. That way people would see engaging other ships for sinking as high risk/high reward instead of high risk/ no real reward beyond damaging others.

~Anemoi~
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Anemoi on Meridian
Aither on Opal
[Jul 16, 2017 11:46:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shademan987

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Ensuring that the winning vessel can for example haul the sunk ship booty (or maybe a bounty of amount XXXXX paid by the faction depending on how big the ship was?) would help a great deal to promote PvP's between everyone. That way people would see engaging other ships for sinking as high risk/high reward instead of high risk/ no real reward beyond damaging others.


I love the idea of sunken ships becoming treasure haul nodes. Like you guys have said already, there's no incentive to engage in PvP right now aside from pure malice. Players are rarely hauling any booty worth taking, so fighting other pirates is just a big waste of time for everyone involved. But this would give you a bigger motivation to attack other players and makes getting sunk feel like less of a personal attack. Highly in favor of this idea. I can't think of any reason not to make this change.
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-- William Faulkner


Dashy | Suspicious Activity | Obsidian Ocean
[Jul 16, 2017 12:40:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Snuby

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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I disagree.

Dont want to risk grapple because you also got damaged? Sink them. (low risk, no reward)

Want a good chunk of their booty that they worked hard to get? Grapple and do your best during the SF (high risk, high reward)

If something needs to be changed in PVP it is definitely not the ability to TH. Might aswell throw the grapple ability away then. GH certainly doesnt see PVP as griefing, so they wont take measures to make people feel better about being constantly attacked, besides the greywaters "safezone".

People that dont want to get PVPed just need to dnav. People that want to PVP already have a ton of incentive.
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[Jul 17, 2017 1:00:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Onelegstan



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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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I disagree.

Dont want to risk grapple because you also got damaged? Sink them. (low risk, no reward)

Want a good chunk of their booty that they worked hard to get? Grapple and do your best during the SF (high risk, high reward)

If something needs to be changed in PVP it is definitely not the ability to TH. Might aswell throw the grapple ability away then. GH certainly doesnt see PVP as griefing, so they wont take measures to make people feel better about being constantly attacked, besides the greywaters "safezone".

People that dont want to get PVPed just need to dnav. People that want to PVP already have a ton of incentive.


Yes there has always been a slight incentive to PvP, but I don't see how the incentive is any higher at all on this ocean (which is meant to be the PvP ocean) than any other ocean before hand? Yes you can sink ships but so what? Why waste 30minutes sinking a ship for absolutely no gain?

There needs to be an incentive for people to run PvPs (hence point 2), and there needs to be an incentive for people to job for people running PvPs (hence point 3).
I there is no incentive to risk your ship in a PvP then people will just avoid them. Point 2 goes hand in hand with the first point and would make players that want to build a fleet actually go out and PvP so that they can build ships for cheaper, while giving jobbers satisfaction for the time they have spent!
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[Jul 17, 2017 4:51:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Snuby

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Yes there has always been a slight incentive to PvP, but I don't see how the incentive is any higher at all on this ocean (which is meant to be the PvP ocean) than any other ocean before hand?


Besides the usual reasons (steal the booty and improve crew rank), since alot more engagements are sinking you can:
- threaten to sink them if they dont pay a ransom
- sink them and brag about it on global chat (probably the main reason people PVP)

Regarding jobbing, any offensive PVPer will use flaggies/faction(ers?)/hearties and very rarely resort to notice board.
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[Jul 17, 2017 5:14:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Onelegstan



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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Yes there has always been a slight incentive to PvP, but I don't see how the incentive is any higher at all on this ocean (which is meant to be the PvP ocean) than any other ocean before hand?


Besides the usual reasons (steal the booty and improve crew rank), since alot more engagements are sinking you can:
- threaten to sink them if they dont pay a ransom
- sink them and brag about it on global chat (probably the main reason people PVP)

Regarding jobbing, any offensive PVPer will use flaggies/faction(ers?)/hearties and very rarely resort to notice board.


You may get the joy out of sinking someone, or bragging about it. But I'm a capitalist economy, members of the economy want material gain. A pirate of a crew does not actually give a damn how high the PvP ranking for the crew is. Nor does a captain that has an unlimited wallet, for them it's just about ships and blockades. Leaving it the way it is and assuming pirates get 'fun' out of sinking PvP leaves the game as a play to win in terms of blockades, flags and islands.

This ocean is meant to be different, changes need to be implemented to make it an actual PvP ocean that people want to compete in without spending too much $$$.
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[Jul 17, 2017 5:44:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Snuby

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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You may get the joy out of sinking someone, or bragging about it.


I've never PVPed anyone on the new ocean. I'm talking about what most PVPers I know train of thought is and the usual salt spam on global chat.

 
But I'm a capitalist economy, members of the economy want material gain. A pirate of a crew does not actually give a damn how high the PvP ranking for the crew is. Nor does a captain that has an unlimited wallet, for them it's just about ships and blockades. Leaving it the way it is and assuming pirates get 'fun' out of sinking PvP leaves the game as a play to win in terms of blockades, flags and islands.


Ignoring the obvious "a game is something you are suposed to have fun with", there are better ways to make poe in the game. If you boost one too much, people will only do that and ignore rest (see poker/kh).
Profitable PVP is about hitting one very specific target at a specific time; intercepting trade runs or someone just leaving a kh with 100 eggs aboard for example. Any kind of automatic reward system as the one you are proposing can and will be abused by players (just have friends on the majority faction let you sink them since you can make cheaper sloops for them anyway and everyone reaps the rewards).
And the endgame is, and will always be, blockades.

 
A pirate of a crew does not actually give a damn how high the PvP ranking for the crew is.


A political problem being discussed in another thread that has no relevance within the PVP issue.


 
This ocean is meant to be different, changes need to be implemented to make it an actual PvP ocean that people want to compete in without spending too much $$$.


In my opinion GH does not intend for the majority of playerbase to be PVPing. The new system they implemented exists to
- appease old elite players
- create a new doubloon sink mechanic
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Snuby.
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[Jul 17, 2017 6:05:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Onelegstan



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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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You may get the joy out of sinking someone, or bragging about it.


I've never PVPed anyone on the new ocean. I'm talking about what most PVPers I know train of thought is and the usual salt spam on global chat.

 
But I'm a capitalist economy, members of the economy want material gain. A pirate of a crew does not actually give a damn how high the PvP ranking for the crew is. Nor does a captain that has an unlimited wallet, for them it's just about ships and blockades. Leaving it the way it is and assuming pirates get 'fun' out of sinking PvP leaves the game as a play to win in terms of blockades, flags and islands.


Ignoring the obvious "a game is something you are suposed to have fun with", there are better ways to make poe in the game. If you boost one too much, people will only do that and ignore rest (see poker/kh).
Profitable PVP is about hitting one very specific target at a specific time; intercepting trade runs or someone just leaving a kh with 100 eggs aboard for example. Any kind of automatic reward system as the one you are proposing can and will be abused by players (just have friends on the majority faction let you sink them since you can make cheaper sloops for them anyway and everyone reaps the rewards).
And the endgame is, and will always be, blockades.

 
A pirate of a crew does not actually give a damn how high the PvP ranking for the crew is.


A political problem being discussed in another thread that has no relevance within the PVP issue.


 
This ocean is meant to be different, changes need to be implemented to make it an actual PvP ocean that people want to compete in without spending too much $$$.


'Most PvPers you know' I dont even know what to make of this comment. Firstly it is completely different or a skills dPvPer than anyone else, if a skilled PvPer is what you are referring too. And secondly this new ocean is not just meant to be for the elite, it is meant to be created to bring new people in.

In my opinion GH does not intend for the majority of playerbase to be PVPing. The new system they implemented exists to
- appease old elite players
- create a new doubloon sink mechanic


You have taken what I said way to far. I have never suggested the reward for sinking someone be higher than the risk of being sunk. If a sloop is sunk and the owner gets a voucher for 8 dubs off a sloop and the booty gets 5k, then the OMs still have their pie/dub sink. Right now the risk of a sinking PvP is way to high compared to the reward, something hasn't to be done to bring these closer together.

I only said about a pirate not caring because you said that is one of the rewards of winning a PvP...

Well if this game is to continue in the long run then your last point HAS to be wrong. Otherwise within a year the game will be done. For it to continue new players have to be bought in and old players have to be kept interested, rather than it being pay to win.
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[Jul 17, 2017 6:21:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Snuby

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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You have taken what I said way to far. I have never suggested the reward for sinking someone be higher than the risk of being sunk. If a sloop is sunk and the owner gets a voucher for 8 dubs off a sloop and the booty gets 5k, then the OMs still have their pie/dub sink.


5k in battle would be shared through all jobbers then? I dont see how that would incentivize people to job for PVP. I dont want to go back to the days of too many bnavers and not enough jobbers. In the end this argument would be settled by fine tuning the reward amount, but I disagree with the mechanic on a base level though.

 
Right now the risk of a sinking PvP is way to high compared to the reward, something hasn't to be done to bring these closer together.

Make sloops cost 10 dubs. Then people wont cry about losing one sloop (roughly 25k/35k).

 
I only said about a pirate not caring because you said that is one of the rewards of winning a PvP...


I also listed 3 other reasons/rewards. But point taken.

 
Well if this game is to continue in the long run then your last point HAS to be wrong. Otherwise within a year the game will be done. For it to continue new players have to be bought in and old players have to be kept interested, rather than it being pay to win.


And in my opinion, more PVP will only scare the majority of new players away. Unless you make it really cheap to be sunk, instead of making it profitable to sink.

As a side note, make PVP boards smaller, that will help with the frustration PVP sharks have to deal with.
Make it impossible to reengage.
And please dont add PVP trophies.
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[Jul 17, 2017 6:51:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shademan987

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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In my opinion GH does not intend for the majority of playerbase to be PVPing. The new system they implemented exists to
- appease old elite players
- create a new doubloon sink mechanic


I think you're fundamentally wrong there. These might be effects of the changes, but these aren't the intentions GH expressed in the Dark Seas announcement. In this thread Forculus literally states, "The goal for Dark Seas is to introduce an entirely new ocean where the rules are a bit different. This shadowy new ocean is a volatile place full of more danger and unexplored frontiers." He says nothing about creating this ocean to appease old elites or simply add doubloon sinks to the game. These are merely effects brought on by their real goal, which is invigorating the game. They clearly express their plans to do this by making the Dark Seas a more "volatile" and "dangerous" place. How will they bring danger and volatility? By encouraging players to engage in PvP. That's the whole point of the factions and sinking mechanics, but more needs to be done for Obsidian to feel truly volatile and dangerous. Right now it's as static and safe as any other ocean because there's little-to-no reason to justify the risk of PvP. If they truly want this ocean to be different, like they say they do, there needs to be some kind of incentive or reason to engage other players, period. Being an ass and improving crew fame is not enough reason. Not even close. Those are the same forces that drive PvP on any other ocean and we see how that's turned out.

As far as I'm concerned, GH has clearly expressed that Dark Seas is a game based on dynamism through PvP conflict and player interaction, and anyone who doesn't support major changes that reflect those design goals should simply stay on Emerald in my opinion. If PvP ends up scaring away new players then so be it. At least they tried something different and new to revive the game. The current systems clearly aren't drawing many new players to begin with, so what is there honestly to lose by testing a new way to play on a totally separate beta server? If the new approach fails then we'll just go back to Emerald and resume waiting for YPP's death. But until then, I strongly believe in the mantra of my signature.
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You cannot swim for new horizons until you have courage to lose sight of the shore.
-- William Faulkner


Dashy | Suspicious Activity | Obsidian Ocean
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by shademan987 at Jul 17, 2017 10:07:09 AM]
[Jul 17, 2017 9:29:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Snuby

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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He says nothing about creating this ocean to appease old elites or simply add doubloon sinks to the game.

It's pirate talk. Roleplaying if you will. Of course their intention is to make PVP a highlight, but dont take the words literally. If anything
Forculus wrote: 
The new release exposure on Steam will give us the opportunity to bring back former players who may have retired, but would be excited to try something new and different in the world of Puzzle Pirates
These are the old elite players I mentioned.
 
By encouraging players to engage in PvP. That's the whole point of the factions and sinking mechanics, but more needs to be done for Obsidian to feel truly volatile and dangerous.

Agreed, and factions also exist to make for better events, more involved comunity and lower the importance of flags a bit.
 
Being an ass and improving crew fame is not enough reason. Not even close. Those are the same forces that drive PvP on any other ocean and we see how that's turned out.

The fact that it is ridiculous easy to run away during a PVP is one of the main forces that makes PVP unpractical. No matter how much you pay as a reward for sinking a ship, noone will risk their random pillage/SMH booty with their random jobbers aboard against a ship with 20 rum and 100 cannonballs and a PVP ready crew that just attacked them. Even pillaging mechanics punish this, engaging in a PVP ruins your booty ramp.
 
If PvP ends up scaring away new players then so be it.

I think you're fundamentally wrong there.
 
At least they tried something different and new to revive the game.

I am against change for the sake of change. I am in favour of trying new stuff, like reducing dub cost of sloop, making PVP boards smaller or some kind of bounty board. Like I said before, I am against this specific proposition for I do not believe it to solve the current issue with PVP.
 
The current systems clearly aren't drawing many new players to begin with, so what is there honestly to lose by testing a new way to play on a totally separate beta server?

The thing we might lose is the oportunity generated by a STEAM release and all the new players that show up (as stated by Forculus).
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[Jul 17, 2017 10:29:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Forculus
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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Just wanted to say that I really appreciate the discussion here, and I've been watching this thread. There are several things we're discussing and planning to add further incentive to PvP on this ocean, it's just that there are other aspects of Dark Seas that had to be sorted out first. None of the PvP plans are set in stone yet, so we're definitely interested in incorporating suggestions from here in the forums. Please keep discussing (and stay tuned)!
[Jul 17, 2017 11:38:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Discflicker

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From my experience on Viridian/Meridian, it's super hard to do sloop vs sloop PVP once you have somewhere around 4+ Renowned+ players - even if you manage to land a couple shots, they'll be able to disengage if they want to.

Maybe something like a carp or bilge nerf within PVP battles would be in order? Another idea would be to say that maybe a little of your hold/booty is lost upon disengage.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Discflicker at Jul 17, 2017 12:23:29 PM]
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majestrate

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Want a good chunk of their booty that they worked hard to get? Grapple and do your best during the SF (high risk, high reward)

"High risk" does not exist in PvP. Unless you consider a ship to be "high risk" (meaning you risk losing your ship if they sink you before you can grapple and melee to try and win their booty/hold items).

This is actually something that should be addressed on all oceans. You should not be able to engage another player unless your booty contains a sizable amount. Maybe 5,000 or 10,000 eights per pirate on the targeted ship? So, you want to PvP 7v7, then you must have 35,000 or 70,000 total eights in your booty before you can engage.

Ideally it would be based off of the value of the targeted ship's booty, but you can't know that and I believe that knowing who to attack and who not to attack removes part of the "high risk" factor (though, not knowing the booty value kills the "high reward" factor; but meh, it's gambling, if you don't like it, don't PvP).
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by majestrate at Jul 17, 2017 1:08:39 PM]
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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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"High risk" does not exist in PvP. Unless you consider a ship to be "high risk" (meaning you risk losing your ship if they sink you before you can grapple and melee to try and win their booty/hold items).


I agree with what you're saying in the rest of your post, but I would like to say that pvp is actually not low risk at all.

At a high level, pvp is probably the highest risk thing there is, in terms of the likelihood of it failing anyway. There is the risk that you can't intercept your enemy, the risk that they escape during the battle, the risk that they end up maxing you/sinking you, the risk that you end up losing the SF, and finally the risk that they aren't carrying anything valuable, or at least not enough to make it worth it to go to all the trouble of hunting them down.

I feel like it's so high risk that the reward has to be almost an order of magnitude higher than other activities to make it worth it, because that's how much harder it is to succeed at it. Either that or it needs to be made easier somehow. And there are a variety of ways that could be done.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Gorillabuddy at Jul 17, 2017 1:34:00 PM]
[Jul 17, 2017 1:29:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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I agree with what you're saying in the rest of your post, but I would like to say that pvp is actually not low risk at all.

At a high level, pvp is probably the highest risk thing there is, in terms of the likelihood of it failing anyway. There is the risk that you can't intercept your enemy, the risk that they escape during the battle, the risk that they end up maxing you/sinking you, the risk that you end up losing the SF, and finally the risk that they aren't carrying anything valuable, or at least not enough to make it worth it to go to all the trouble of hunting them down.

I feel like it's so high risk that the reward has to be almost an order of magnitude higher than other activities to make it worth it, because that's how much harder it is to succeed at it. Either that or it needs to be made easier somehow. And there are a variety of ways that could be done.

If I load 30-50 shot and 15-25 rum and then go PvP someone who has just spent 2+ hours on a Kraken Hunt, where is the high risk that is equitable to what the targeted player is risking?

I get that people can run or dnav to prevent being engaged, but the point of this thread is to encourage PvP and you don't do that by letting one side skate on risk that impacts payout to the targeted side if the targeted players were to win a melee.

It's no different than back in the day when you had to put up something in order to get into the skellie frays. People started getting old bandanas or those worthless 1 eights bid tickets and using those as their item. How fair was that to those who would go and buy a new bandana or put up a sword (not a foil) that was still in "good" condition?

To encourage PvP, both sides need to have a reason to do it. Risking 10,000 eights worth of stock to win 200,000 eights worth of booty is great for the one risking 10,000 eights worth of stock. It's pointless for the one risking 200,000 eights worth of booty.

Edit: Oh, and all those "high risk" things you listed are not actually high risk when compared to what the targeted ship is risking. They're really nothing more than excuses for players to not put anything of value at risk when they PvP others
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by majestrate at Jul 17, 2017 1:45:44 PM]
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Gorillabuddy

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The risk is that you're wasting your time. Time is money, in puzzle pirates especially. If you try to pvp someone and fail, it's like throwing money away because you could have spent that time pillying or something else that earns money.
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Pliskin of Cerulean

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[Jul 17, 2017 2:22:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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The risk is that you're wasting your time. Time is money, in puzzle pirates especially. If you try to pvp someone and fail, it's like throwing money away because you could have spent that time pillying or something else that earns money.

Flimsy at best. Again, comparatively speaking, that is not "high risk" vs a targeted ship that just finished a 2+ hour Kraken Hunt and has 200,000 eights worth of booty.

If you're going to quantify a player's time as part of their "high risk", then you do the same for the targeted players except add to it, because not only are they risking the time of the PvP itself, they are risking their time in the KH (or whatever) as well as what is in the booty.

So, we'll play it your way. Now it's "high risk vs higher risk" and it will always be that way, unless GH finds a solution that forces attackers to risk something of tangible value to the general ocean population.
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[Jul 17, 2017 2:51:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Onelegstan



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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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To encourage PvP, both sides need to have a reason to do it. Risking 10,000 eights worth of stock to win 200,000 eights worth of booty is great for the one risking 10,000 eights worth of stock. It's pointless for the one risking 200,000 eights worth of booty.


I think this is a very good point. Maybe a rule needs to be implemented that you can't engage in a PvP unless your total (hold+booty) is at least a third of your opponents. This way if someone has a 300k booty, the attacker must have at least 100k in the hold+booty to be able to attack. This would only have to work one way, if the stacked had a booty 10x the defender then it's at the attackers risk for engaging.

This could be seen by putting a coloured ring around an opponents PvP ship similar to when attacking a bot, say:
1. Less than a tenth of your booty
2. Less than a fifth of your booty
3. Less than a third of your booty
4. Less than half
5. Within 50% either side
6. More than double
7. More than treble
8. More than five times
9. More than ten times

This way the attacker would have a visible way of knowing how much needs to be added to the hold before they can engage.
Two other things would then have to be implemented to allow this.
1. As soon as a PvP battle is started, the hold is locked. Meaning neither captain can remove any of the poe from the vessel.
2. Somewhere on the ship there would need to be a calculation showing total value of booty and hold
3. Maybe a warning message telling you that the ship you are trying to engage has more than 5x the booty so you need to add x amount of poe to the hold.


Using a method like this would mean that there is never a huge disparity for the defender. Yet as it's a third, there is still the reward in place for an attacker to feel worth their time.


Maybe if this was to come in place then the TH of a PvP sink would need to be implemented, otherwise sinking becomes pretty useless.
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[Jul 17, 2017 6:37:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gorillabuddy

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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If you're going to quantify a player's time as part of their "high risk", then you do the same for the targeted players except add to it, because not only are they risking the time of the PvP itself, they are risking their time in the KH (or whatever) as well as what is in the booty.


I think you're framing the situation incorrectly. The ship with 200,000 poe would be risking a lot if they came into the situation on the same terms as the pvper, but they aren't. They only risk their poe if a pvper happens to come along, which is very rare, at least at the moment. The pvper is always risking their time.

There is basically no risk in KH. The only risk is a pvper coming to steal their booty. Some runs are better than others, but they're almost certainly going to make money every time, and over 2 hours it'll average out well enough. With pillies and CI there's more variance, but you'll also make money the vast majority of the time.

But let's just stick with the KH example. The KH makes 50k per half hour, and has a more or less negligible risk of someone coming to steal it.

A pvper can steal half of that, if they win a battle. So if they want to break even with a KH output, they need to intercept, battle, and win half the time in the course of 30 minutes. 100k half the time and 0k half the time averages out to 50k.

Now if you want to be able to do that in 30 minutes, you need to do 2 major things. First, you need enough people to help you on short notice so that you can engage the KH ship and win a SF (so at least 3 other people, preferably more). Second, you need to have a target ready. This is rather difficult, as KH ships are completely safe unless they're heading to or from port. You also probably don't know when they're heading back to port unless you're familiar with their schedule or have a spy.

Some of this can be avoided by doing something yourself while waiting for a target, such as pillying nearby or even running your own KH, but that does reduce your odds of being able to intercept them, since you'll be busy a lot of the time and not necessarily ready when the opportunity strikes.

Even not taking all that into account, I don't think most people can win a pvp 50% of the time if the other ship is trying to get away.

Basically I don't think it's worth anybody's time to purposely go out and pvp. Maybe give it a shot if you happen to stroll by someone on the way out of a KH, but otherwise it's too much of a time waster.
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Pliskin of Cerulean

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[Jul 17, 2017 6:41:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Onelegstan



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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Basically I don't think it's worth anybody's time to purposely go out and pvp. Maybe give it a shot if you happen to stroll by someone on the way out of a KH, but otherwise it's too much of a time waster.


Maybe if winning a PvP battle grapple actually increased a pillages booty ramp, and sinking the opponent in a PvP battle increased the booty ramp by even more, then more people that are out pillying will actually want to PvP.

Making the PvP board smaller, and starting the ships closer to each other would also make it harder to run away, this could only be a good thing.
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[Jul 17, 2017 6:57:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gorillabuddy

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Basically I don't think it's worth anybody's time to purposely go out and pvp. Maybe give it a shot if you happen to stroll by someone on the way out of a KH, but otherwise it's too much of a time waster.


Maybe if winning a PvP battle grapple actually increased a pillages booty ramp, and sinking the opponent in a PvP battle increased the booty ramp by even more, then more people that are out pillying will actually want to PvP.

Making the PvP board smaller, and starting the ships closer to each other would also make it harder to run away, this could only be a good thing.


I like those suggestions.

I do think it's too easy for ships to run away.

A few more off the top of my head:

1. Have a full booty slow down the ship since it's so heavy.

2. Allow shots to knock booty off the ship. After the battle, it can be TH'd.

3. Allow multiple ships to intercept one ship.

4. Allow pvpers to stealth themselves, and give them some kind of sneak attack bonus if they can engage an enemy.

5. Give pvpers some kind of radar alerting them of good targets, or at least something better than paying the local drunk to tell you if they saw something.

6. Release new ships specifically designed for intercepting other ships. Maybe give them extra long grapples, a larger initial move pool, ability to lay traps, or something like that.
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Pliskin of Cerulean

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[Jul 17, 2017 7:33:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Maybe if winning a PvP battle grapple actually increased a pillages booty ramp


Very easily abused using alts.
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[Jul 17, 2017 7:34:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gorillabuddy

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This got me thinking. What if we could design our own ships? You could basically copy what they do in Endless Space. For reference:



You'd basically have slots that you could put things in, such as hull space, guns, grappling hooks, and maybe even special abilities. Maybe even some station customization if you wanted, like more sailing stations, although that could bring in balancing issues.

But the basic idea is, people who want to KH would maximize hull space and maybe lose a gun or 2. People who wanted to pvp could use a slot to add a tracking device, minimize hull space, add another grappling hook/gun, etc. You could also have faction-specific gear, or gear that you earn through certain activities.

It'd be a pretty large undertaking, but i think it'd add a lot of depth to the game, potentially.
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Pliskin of Cerulean

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Gorillabuddy at Jul 17, 2017 7:52:33 PM]
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Faulkston

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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GorillaBuddy wrote: 
You'd basically have slots that you could put things in, such as hull space, guns, grappling hooks, and maybe even special abilities.

Special abilities handled similarly to the tokens generated during duty puzzling?

GorillaBuddy wrote: 
Maybe even some station customization if you wanted, like more sailing stations, although that could bring in balancing issues.

Various discussions on duty puzzle station customization
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[Jul 17, 2017 8:06:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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I think you're framing the situation incorrectly. The ship with 200,000 poe would be risking a lot if they came into the situation on the same terms as the pvper, but they aren't. They only risk their poe if a pvper happens to come along, which is very rare, at least at the moment. The pvper is always risking their time.

So, you spend 2+ hours leading a KH run. I spend 20 minutes randomly checking to see if you've set sail back to port. Once I see that you have headed back in, I PvP you, manage to grapple you, and win the melee. You and I are in different factions, so we're automatically at war. Now I take everything in your booty and your hold except some rum.

You're trying to tell me that your 2+ hours of game time is worth nothing but my 30-40 minutes of time invested in a PvP is worth something?

That makes no sense. If time investment is a measurable value to be considered for risk assessment for one player, then it is a measurable value for all players involved in the overall risk vs reward scenario.

 
There is basically no risk in KH. The only risk is a pvper coming to steal their booty. Some runs are better than others, but they're almost certainly going to make money every time, and over 2 hours it'll average out well enough. With pillies and CI there's more variance, but you'll also make money the vast majority of the time.

But let's just stick with the KH example. The KH makes 50k per half hour, and has a more or less negligible risk of someone coming to steal it.

A pvper can steal half of that, if they win a battle. So if they want to break even with a KH output, they need to intercept, battle, and win half the time in the course of 30 minutes. 100k half the time and 0k half the time averages out to 50k.

Now if you want to be able to do that in 30 minutes, you need to do 2 major things. First, you need enough people to help you on short notice so that you can engage the KH ship and win a SF (so at least 3 other people, preferably more). Second, you need to have a target ready. This is rather difficult, as KH ships are completely safe unless they're heading to or from port. You also probably don't know when they're heading back to port unless you're familiar with their schedule or have a spy.

Some of this can be avoided by doing something yourself while waiting for a target, such as pillying nearby or even running your own KH, but that does reduce your odds of being able to intercept them, since you'll be busy a lot of the time and not necessarily ready when the opportunity strikes.

Even not taking all that into account, I don't think most people can win a pvp 50% of the time if the other ship is trying to get away.

Basically I don't think it's worth anybody's time to purposely go out and pvp. Maybe give it a shot if you happen to stroll by someone on the way out of a KH, but otherwise it's too much of a time waster.

You're completely out of touch with what's happening on Obsidian right now. And you're completely missing my point.

My desire is making PvP enticing enough to a defender to keep them from running from a battle. I don't know of any player who is heading to port from a voyage that is going to say "oh, the people attacking me may have invested a lot of time in their endeavor to PvP me, I think I'll risk everything in my booty/hold on a PvP that is unlikely to pay me anything tangible".
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[Jul 17, 2017 10:04:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
estonianguy

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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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obsidian pvp is balanced

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[Jul 17, 2017 10:56:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Onelegstan



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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Basically I don't think it's worth anybody's time to purposely go out and pvp. Maybe give it a shot if you happen to stroll by someone on the way out of a KH, but otherwise it's too much of a time waster.


Maybe if winning a PvP battle grapple actually increased a pillages booty ramp, and sinking the opponent in a PvP battle increased the booty ramp by even more, then more people that are out pillying will actually want to PvP.

Making the PvP board smaller, and starting the ships closer to each other would also make it harder to run away, this could only be a good thing.


I like those suggestions.

I do think it's too easy for ships to run away.

A few more off the top of my head:

1. Have a full booty slow down the ship since it's so heavy.

2. Allow shots to knock booty off the ship. After the battle, it can be TH'd.

3. Allow multiple ships to intercept one ship.

4. Allow pvpers to stealth themselves, and give them some kind of sneak attack bonus if they can engage an enemy.

5. Give pvpers some kind of radar alerting them of good targets, or at least something better than paying the local drunk to tell you if they saw something.

6. Release new ships specifically designed for intercepting other ships. Maybe give them extra long grapples, a larger initial move pool, ability to lay traps, or something like that.


In reply to these points:
1. Unfair if one person has been pillying for hours and they've been attacked by someone's with 100cbs and 20 rum.

2. This would be very useful for the disengage problem. If this was implemented and the winner could TH, but if the battle was disengaged then it all disappears.

3. Not sure how this would work fairly?

4. Could work but makes it even worse for defenders with big booty.

5. This would be useful, read my point I made earlier regarding rings on ships dependent on how much hold+booty is.

6. This could be very cool.
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[Jul 17, 2017 10:59:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Onelegstan



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Re: Changes to actually make people PvP (and a couple of others) Reply to this Post
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Maybe if winning a PvP battle grapple actually increased a pillages booty ramp


Very easily abused using alts.


Abuse of this could be stopped quite easily if it was done correctly.

1. The amount of booty ramp be dependent on the amount of pirates on the opposing ship in comparison to your own.

2. The amount of booty ramp changes depending on the skill/experience of opposing crew.

If these were implenented and it was made so that if a small sloop beat another small sloop that had no experience then the booty ramp would be way less than heating a bot. But if you were on a sloop of 6 and you sunk a sloop of 7 with highly experienced pirates with high levels of skill then the booty ramp could be say 5x that of a bot.

In the latter case it would be very hard for it to be cheated; firstly you'd need a lot of good alts, and secondly if someone would need to have filled there own ship with amazing alts and be willing to have it sunk.

Of course if the number of pirates/skill/experience had no bearing on the booty ramp it would be abused.
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