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jdaudey



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Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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Hi all, developers,

I've played YPP quite for a while, and man, those puzzles in this game were and are great! Easy to learn, hard to master. After not playing for a while, I've come back, just for the puzzles.

The last few times I did that, it went like this: I played a few puzzlers, walked a bit around, got addicted again, set myself some goals (like: buying one of those new sloops!). To finance the costs (doubloon server), I started pillaging. This made me some new friends, all fun and all good. Until I realised: I need more money, or it will take forever!

"How should i make money?" I asked. Play poker, they said. And so I did. And there the frustration begins.

In my opinion, poker does not have a place in this game. Why not? Because:

  • It crashed the economy. Earning 20k, and try to maximize your incomes with that cash is far less time consuming than pillaging.
  • This drives new/returning players away. Players who don't like poker or simply are bad in it, cannot compete with others to receive enough income. "Is there a competition then for earning PoE?" Yep, there is, because of the doubloon markets. Remember the times when doubs were 400 poe each?
  • The flow in the money are driving the blockading stakes high up. That's a problem, because jobbing in a blockade is so much profitable, that it makes no sense to log-in during the week. Why should you, when it makes so much profit with jobbing alone?
  • It lessens the population in other puzzles dramatically. It's popular, yes, but I don't know that's because of the fun factor or because of the earning potential.
  • Losing isn't fun. What happens with your mood if you lose with a pillage? Well, no problem, we can do another battle! What happens when you do a poor with sailing? Well, let's try it again! But when you lose in poker, you lose a substantial amount of money. And that's really a problem, because most players are playing a game for the fun it gives.
  • To make it worse: usually there are more losers than winners with a poker game.
  • The final points: it's not an unique puzzle for YPP. If I want to play poker, there are plenty websites offering me this. But what if I want to do a drinking game? Or what if I want to do some swordfighting? I can only go to Puzzle Pirates to get that unique feeling.


When browsing the web, these problems with Poker have been pointed out by many ex-players. But it still remained in the game, completely ignored by the developers. And that makes me sad. Very sad, because it's very likely to throw me off, out of this gem of a game. Again.

I would strongly suggest to remove poker completely OR remove all the 200+ bet structures. If people play poker for the fun, they will absolutely play it also on a 200-2k table instead. That might be a risky move for YPP, as it was part of the economy for so long. However, IMO it's a move that should be taken. Maybe it's an idea to start a very tiny new ocean, and send new players to that ocean directly, just to look how things work out?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by jdaudey at Apr 20, 2016 10:06:58 AM]
[Apr 20, 2016 10:05:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LeRoy82

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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Not sure if I agree fully, but restricting it quite a bit, might help things.

  • Just a thought, that might help if not just removing it.
    Dropping the buy in, and setting a max take, force cash outs...
    Maybe even a max buy in of 200 poe, and a cap of 10k before the force cash out.

  • What can I say, I really love poker, but refuse to play it in-game, for the very reason jdaudey has pointed out, I don't love YPP because I can play cards.
    I love it, because I can be a pirate at sea.
    The idea of having 12, 15, 18+ active crew members aboard one of our ships, making loads of poe, in some massive pillage, SMH, or blockading some island.

  • Not standing in the INN, hoping to win at poker, or hope somebody will buy a map, I can't seem to use.
    Sadly enough, no body wants to buy the maps, because they are playing some card game...

  • jdaudey is right about the blockades too, who hasn't noticed that the flags, and crews controlling these islands, have 1-5 active members.
    Why, because they can pay 8k to jobbers, and never really even play the game.

  • Islands should be controlled by active crews, that blockade with their own Flags, not hanging out in the INNs or waiting till the weekend to job some high paying solo flag/crew.


Just my thoughts, glad ye read them.
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[May 1, 2016 8:57:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    LeRoy16_69 [Link]  Go to top 
Cutingchris

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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Problem is, if you take poker away you'll lose most of the elite players or the people who like to blockade. I don't know many flags who are funded purely from puzzling. You might get the odd couple of people who hammer swordfighting/do tournaments but the majority will just poker to manage to deal with the current inflated blockading area of the game.

Obviously it's driving away newer players and making some areas of the game redundant but there isn't many people who devote their whole gaming lives on poker. Also I know a few people who will still puzzle if they feel in the mood.

Poker isn't terrible either and it does fit. Obviously it has it's faults and has ruined certain aspects of the game (For example, 3.5k dub prices? Pillaging ruined? Seriously?) but it also has it's benefits. It would be too drastic a change to get rid of a now important part of Puzzle Pirates.

Elitism probably killed the game more than poker did as at least with poker you can "get lucky" or pick up easier than say learning how to bilge just so you can meet that minimum requirement to job on a citadel run in Atlantis. Never-mind getting the swordfighting stat to match. I for one think Puzzle Pirates isn't that friendly to new players and relies heavily on the current population to help newbies as if they're school prefects. At least with poker you have a shot at making the basic commodity in this game

 
Maybe it's an idea to start a very tiny new ocean, and send new players to that ocean directly, just to look how things work out?


It's a decent idea but it's been tried before (Malachite). It would cost too much money for the devs and as it stands there isn't a player base big enough to warrant any new islands opening, never-mind a whole new ocean; no matter the size. of it. Also starting a whole new pirate on a whole new ocean would be hard for some people. Also funnelling all the new players on a new ocean would kill off Meridian and Emerald from getting the already dwindling numbers of newbies.

 
jdaudey is right about the blockades too, who hasn't noticed that the flags, and crews controlling these islands, have 1-5 active members. Why, because they can pay 8k to jobbers, and never really even play the game. Islands should be controlled by active crews, that blockade with their own Flags, not hanging out in the INNs or waiting till the weekend to job some high paying solo flag/crew.


There's nothing wrong with flags who have 5 members owning islands if they just stand in the inn. For one thing you need reputation to own an island and poker doesn't add much (if any?) to that rep. You have to puzzle to an extent in order to blockade. Blockades also help with puzzlers. I love puzzling a lot but very rarely go and puzzle if it's under 3k per seg (which it usually is these days). Inflation was always going to happen in this game and obviously poker hasn't helped but in a way it made it more enjoyable to do a major part of this game so efficiently rather than spend about 20 hours a week earning 20k per voyage to make the minimum amount to blockade.
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[May 3, 2016 4:45:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
EmpressTamar

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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I don't know many flags who are funded purely from puzzling.

I don't know many flags who are funded purely through legitimate poker funds.
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[May 3, 2016 6:21:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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Problem is, if you take poker away you'll lose most of the elite players or the people who like to blockade.
<snip>
Obviously it's driving away newer players and making some areas of the game redundant

The second part outweighs the first part. The game survived quite well without 10k blockades for most of its existence. Blockades will happen whether they're funded by poker or not. And for everyone who says that expensive blockades are the only way to pay for doubloons, well, the price of doubloons is run by supply and demand, and they so high because of the two activities that dump large amounts of money into player's pockets-- blockades being one of them.

Threads about kraken runs paying too much can be found elsewhere.
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[May 4, 2016 4:06:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ryanford350

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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And THEN we dig the game even deeper into the abyss by driving more gameplay away from core mechanics with the addition of Texas No Hold Em?

Everyone's entitled to their opinion on what aspects they prefer over others. So I'll share mine

HUGE FAIL. Bad move

Forever giving the devs the benefit of the doubt (check all my posts as testament), for the first time I honestly get the distinct impression they're 'giving up' on reviving what made YPP great... And cashing out on the way out the door

/e keeps an eye out for the proverbial fat lady about to sing
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[May 4, 2016 6:38:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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To each their own, but they're still settling in from the transition.

Programmers take their direction from someone (unless they are dual-hatted). So you aren't really giving up on them, you're giving up on the decision makers for Y!PP.

I imagine that Grey Havens has to sit down and figure out their "what's next plan". Once they have that, they still have to figure out what it will take to support and execute the plan, secure all funding/resources necessary to support/execute, and then finally execute the plan.

It's not an overnight thing, and if the decision makers all have other jobs, then the timeline for all of that is pushed further out.
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[May 4, 2016 10:06:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Cutingchris

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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I don't know many flags who are funded purely from puzzling.

I don't know many flags who are funded purely through legitimate poker funds.


Giving the benefit of the doubt. The vast majority will use poker.

 
The second part outweighs the first part.


If more elites leave the game then the game wouldn't ever progress. Most of the time newbies need to ask an elite about a puzzle/naving or getting a chance at learning what you need to know about blockading. So taking out poker wholesale would be a terrible move. Obviously restrictions are needed but going that extreme is a little too courageous

 
And for everyone who says that expensive blockades are the only way to pay for doubloons, well, the price of doubloons is run by supply and demand, and they so high because of the two activities that dump large amounts of money into player's pockets-- blockades being one of them. Threads about kraken runs paying too much can be found elsewhere.


Blockades tend to keep a certain amount of poe in circulation. For example: if the blockaders give away 20m in one weekend to about 500 people; going through poker or the shoppes/economics part of the caders will probably get most of that money back. In theory the dub prices have probably risen for more reasons than purely because of 10k cades. SMH, Pillage, Flotillas and at times island governorship put more poe into the game. You could argue SMH drove up the dub prices more than blockades ever did.

Alas Blockades put in more money to players' pockets, but if you include gold boxes, badges for pillaging (if you were to run one/want to gun in your crew). badges for labour and parlour activities and SMHs. Aside from maybe a pirate badge if you wanted to gun, blockades aren't a huge incentive to drive up dub prices (except if you move poe over oceans of course.)

Dub prices also go up depending on how many are in circulation. For example in the Mala days dubs were at times 3x higher than on Viridian because there just wasn't enough to supply.
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[May 4, 2016 1:00:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mackmorrison

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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You could argue SMH drove up the dub prices more than blockades ever did.


I would argue SMH (especially Krakening) drove up blockade pay. Which both resulted in the raising of dub prices, it reduced the probability a legit greenies would get a chance to afford badges which in turn plummeted the new player retention... which reduced the number of people with motive to buy dubs with RL money which then again caused an increase to dub prices.

& blockading pay had to raise to try to get people to help them sail boats instead of clicking arrows for 30 minutes loops with barely more than pee breaks in between. Don't blame this on blockade pay.. Serve blame where it's due.. cade pay wouldn't be were it is now without the displeased kraken that spews Poe out like candy.
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[May 4, 2016 9:32:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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Mrm, the issues you're referring to existed before Kraken encounters were released into Ice. So if you want to say that Atlantis drove up blockade pay, then so be it, but it wasn't the Kraken portion of SMH runs that did it.

If you want to say that Kraken encounters help sustain the high levels of blockade pay, okay. Can't argue that.
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[May 5, 2016 9:57:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Cutingchris

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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You could argue SMH drove up the dub prices more than blockades ever did.


I would argue SMH (especially Krakening) drove up blockade pay. Which both resulted in the raising of dub prices, it reduced the probability a legit greenies would get a chance to afford badges which in turn plummeted the new player retention... which reduced the number of people with motive to buy dubs with RL money which then again caused an increase to dub prices.

& blockading pay had to raise to try to get people to help them sail boats instead of clicking arrows for 30 minutes loops with barely more than pee breaks in between. Don't blame this on blockade pay.. Serve blame where it's due.. cade pay wouldn't be were it is now without the displeased kraken that spews Poe out like candy.


I agree with most of this argument. Though replace Kraken with Atlantis.
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[May 5, 2016 11:58:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Seawytch

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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I am sure that many of you know that Indifference has been in the blockade scene often, and heavy at times. Having created a legitimate flag from the ground up is very tough work. You rely on many things to sustain your causes. You rely on your flagmates (and yes some of them did poker but not crazy 200k big poe poker, just here and there got lucky poker lol)
Mostly our flag raised funds through flipping merchandise, foraging, shoppes, events, and just bare bones hard work and determination.
Yes, it is depressing to see someone earn what I made in a week in one hand of poker, but it's gambling, if you are in you win, you lose. If you work for it, you can't lose.
I am a strong believer that the KH release was a huge impact on the entire ocean. Everyone was constantly running KH, then elite KH which no new players were being jobbed. I am guilty as well. There were many, many weeks where there was hardly a pillage on the board.
When I started playing PP on Malachite, I basically made a living running gems. I bought a sloop at I think 6k - stocked it up for hardly nothing and crossed two interarchs to sell gems at 1k each. Pretty decent income. Today? You buy a sloop for 70k, stock it for about 6k, sail across 4 interarchs and sell them, for 1k each.... Not likely. I think that as with the real world, our resources for income should be logical as well as increase or decrease with supply and demand. Who wants to spend 3 hours running gems when they could KH an entry and make just as much?
Since there were no pillage and KH requires just mainly lifeboats and rum, a lot of shoppes have suffered. There are no porting vessels selling commodities dock side- Furthermore, labor..... I had 8 shoppes at one time, and had to remind and beg for employees, and I was paying very competitively. Like I read in this post earlier, the KH hardly stop long enough to let everyone pee lol.
Now that everyone has a krakling or 4, and a decent amount of inky everything - and the sale amount of kraklings has dropped significantly- I have noticed more activity on the ocean, thankfully.
I would like to see gems being bought for more, especially if the distance is great.. after all they are only created and spawned for the sole purpose of trading and serve no other purpose.
And as far as poker goes, this i am an neutral on- I have seen many good hearties practically quit the game when they lost their poe in an unlucky game. I also have had hearties that have had nothing have a great game and be thrilled they finally have poe. Me? Idc either way, but I think it might be a bit better if the stakes were lower. It would still be fun, you would still have potential to make a great profit, but not so much that you can control an entire weekend. When pirates aren't filthy rich, there might not be blockades every weekend, BUT this would also give island owners a bit of security so they could give their land some attention and not worry their hard work would be snatched away in a few days.

These are just my ramblings :) I am game for anything- after all this is an amazing game with amazing people and we are in control of the fun we put in or get out of it ourselves.

Happy Puzzling :)


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[May 5, 2016 8:48:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SirCarl67

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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I see high stakes poker as one one of the causes for high pay on blockades. Doub exchange prices are based on the balance between the supply / demand for poe and the supply / demand for doubs. Poker and Blockades do not effect either on an ocean wide level they just redistribute poe between players.

Those good enough to become very wealthy by consistently winning at poker move poe from the moderately wealthy who have an occasional (usually unsuccessful) gamble on the 200k table. If they use it to fund a blockade the poe goes back to the masses who job for 10k a seg.

The doub price has risen significantly for two reasons an increase in the supply of poe (KH as people have mentioned) and an increase for demand of doubs.

OOO (and now Grey Havens) only source of RL money is though the sale of doubs which is pretty much linked to the amount of doubs spent. As the population has declined changes to the game have often targeted getting more doubs bought per player. Examples of these are gold boxes and Limited edition ships. (Poe sinks on ships are limited to the commodity price where raw materials spawn (or sold by bots) + tax, a quick calculation on a torrid class sloop revealed it sunk 27.5 more doubs than a standard sloop (including paint) but only about 14k more poe.

For a new player this can work either way. If they are unable / unwilling to spend money on the game it makes it much harder to get the poe for badges / ships etc. However if a pirate is willing to spend (lets say the subscription rate of $10 per month) they can use that to get a set of badges for 17 doubs (O, bravery and parlour as a labour badge should cover the cost itself) maybe spend 15 doubs a month on clothes weapons and ships (the first two augmented by what is found on SMH) and they then have 35k extra poe if obtained from the exchange (compared to 10k when doubs were at 1k each)

Having said that I would like to see the balanced redressed somewhat. A rake on high stakes poker tables and possible blockade pay and less poe in KH (and to a certain extent other SMHs so people go on SMH for the unique items and pillage for the poe))
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by SirCarl67 at May 8, 2016 4:20:31 PM]
[May 8, 2016 6:30:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LeRoy82

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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You could argue SMH drove up the dub prices more than blockades ever did.


I would argue SMH (especially Krakening) drove up blockade pay. Which both resulted in the raising of dub prices, it reduced the probability a legit greenies would get a chance to afford badges which in turn plummeted the new player retention... which reduced the number of people with motive to buy dubs with RL money which then again caused an increase to dub prices.

& blockading pay had to raise to try to get people to help them sail boats instead of clicking arrows for 30 minutes loops with barely more than pee breaks in between. Don't blame this on blockade pay.. Serve blame where it's due.. cade pay wouldn't be were it is now without the displeased kraken that spews Poe out like candy.

Sometimes I wander, who really plays this game, because those that comment don't really seem to know what's going on in the game...

Prices go up, when less is put in.
Yes, when you find ways to get more poe(High Stakes Poker, SMH, etc...) you don't find the need to put real money in.

I LOVE KH, but these SMHs and then some don't even compare to the poe taken at the tables.

I agree, that if poker is taken out, it will cost a few pirates(they'll leave), but are they really playing the game, or just controlling the game?

If they have to pillage, they won't play anymore, or, they WILL log in and play the game, on more days then just Sat. & Sun.

Poker is suppose to be a mini game, not a primary game. All the Games are suppose to be mini games, that do not retain the Ocean type scene.

I say, put the mini games, back where they belong, mini, cap the gains, and limit the mini games, forcing the pirate back out to sea/ocean game play.

So you make loads in SMHs, at least they are playing the game, not sitting in the INN taking what little they can from those poor people just trying to buy a ship, or map, so they can play like pirates.

I say push back the mini games to the 5k max, and kick them off for the day.
Then they will have to find some other Piracy thing to do.

Shoppes let you puzzle till you hit your max, then its just practice, no more gains, till the next cycle, put all of the mini games on a cycle too.

Till next time, thanks for reading my thoughts, and please comment.
Love it when people hate on thread, they still are bumping it, ;)

P.S. Didn't feel like coloring it up, check in next time, maybe I will.
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[May 13, 2016 6:09:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    LeRoy16_69 [Link]  Go to top 
Doulber

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Re: Returing to YPP: poker is still there. :( Reply to this Post
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Poker funds blockades. Blockade pay make populace happy. Ensure poker stays.
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[May 13, 2016 9:55:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ponytailguy

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Poker funds blockades. Blockade pay make populace happy. Ensure poker stays.
Poker turns game from Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates! Into Yohoho! Blockade and Poker Pirates! (With Occasional Pillaging But Mostly By People Who Don't Know Better Or Don't Have Social Cachet).
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[May 14, 2016 9:53:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Altich

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I have said it many times, poker is definitely one major problem for puzzle pirates. Since PUZZLE pirates is a puzzle game, being good at puzzles should matter much more than being good at card games. But here only being good at poker is enough to become ridiculously rich.

"Poker helps funding Blockades". And what good does this make? The poes people lose at poker are just redistributed back to them.

Personally I would prefer less blockades, using poes earned by honest work and not poker. That would also make Blockades more interesting since captains will actually care about their fleet/poes because they (and the crew) worked for it.

I believe that it is very unlikely to see any major changes at puzzle pirates anymore. Let's face it, the game is dying, the original developers abandoned it, so something so drastic as removing poker is not likely to happen. I stopped puzzle pirates for this reason and because of poker. Now I just visit the site once in a while to see if there is any update or something new, but all I see is "golden boxes", "limited edition ships" and other useless stuff.

Our only chance is some cool developer to see the potential that this game has, join the team and create the much-awaited puzzle pirates 2. I believe that when (not if) this happens many old players will return. So, until then be patient! Hopefully when this happens they will know the mistakes of the past and won't include poker.
[May 14, 2016 11:09:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Leoniden

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I think you're missing out by not picking up a free pdf copy of Super System by Doyle Brunson and learning how to actually play poker. The skill level on YPP is so much worse than on a real 1-2 NL hold'em table you can find at a Casino and even those are pretty easy.

Idk obviously I'm biased because I've learned to play poker... but it was because of Puzzle Pirates, and now I play in real life.

Don't know about it destroying the game, I'm pretty sure dub prices would get inflated if you took it away from the game, but thats just my 5 cents.
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