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Forums » List all forums » Forum: Cerulean Parley » Thread: Tyranny... |
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Thread Status: Normal Total posts in this thread: 84
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wrs1864b
Joined: Apr 10, 2006 Posts: 6337 Status: Offline |
Azure/Midnight was the first ocean that OOO designed, Cobalt/Viridian was the second. I don't know of any exact discussion on the issue, but I strongly suspect that OOO wanted to encourage trading runs. On Malachite, OOO tried an even more extreme design of using lots of medium sized islands so that no individual island could have all types of stalls. For what it is worth, some of the stalls on jubilee may be there primarily to collect herbs/minerals, which might be quite profitable. ---------------------------------------- Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent. |
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GreatBob
Joined: Sep 3, 2005 Posts: 1465 Status: Offline |
The problem isn't the bots, nor the way things are spread out. Cobalt was absolutely fine as far as sugar cane until one thing: the ocean merge. While the economic model of a dynamic spawn based on average prices works on a set group (all islands on an ocean), when you merge two oceans together there are possible problems. The quick version: the Cobalt side is getting screwed. The reason: Each commodity that spawns on an island requires a specific object to be physically placed in the island's scene file. These are usually referred to as "spawn points". If island A has 10 spawn points for a commodity and island B has 20, then island B will spawn twice as much as A. The total number spawned is based on an ocean's needs, which is why prices for commodities are usually fairly close on different oceans, despite population differences. If one ocean has 200 spawn points for a commodity and needs 2,000 of that commodity each day, then each spawn point will be worth 10 of that commodity per day. If another ocean needs that same 2,000 but only has 50 spawn points, each one will be worth 40 units. Now, merge those two oceans together. 4,000 total required units with 250 spawn points means 16 units per spawn point. This means that the first ocean in my example is getting 60% more then before, and the second ocean is only getting 40% of what they did before. If you haven't guessed yet, this is what has happened with Cerulean. Proof: Sugar Cane: This list is how many sugar cane spawn points are on each island. To save you the trouble, there are 2020 total spawn points on Cerulean, with the Midnight side having 1588 (79%) and the Cobalt side having 432 (21%). While each ocean survived fine on its own, once you put them together the economic model destroys itself. ---------------------------------------- Penguinpaste, SO of Polaris, Obsidian. Dark side. Avatar by Phaerie. |
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TexasBeesh
Joined: Oct 14, 2005 Posts: 1754 Status: Offline |
Maybe it was b/c someone can set up on a large island and have one of every stall, not needing anything else... I still think the spawns/bids are poorly laid-out, especially compared to Midnight. EDIT: didn't see post above before posting this. ---------------------------------------- Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean LOW RACK PRICES AT DRESSED TO KILL - NAMATH Always looking for Pollack Sloops! ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by TexasBeesh at Feb 13, 2013 3:24:20 PM] |
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wrs1864b
Joined: Apr 10, 2006 Posts: 6337 Status: Offline |
Interesting... I'm too lazy to look up spawn point, but I was going to give a rough example based on the number of islands that spawned chalcocite. So, to continue my example of Moab, it is the only island on cobalt that spawns chalcocite. On midnight, there were three islands. Rough guess: the cobalt side now gets only 25%. But, it is worse than just the number of spawn points. Moab isn't colonized, so you have to depend on merchant bots for delivery. I have seen proof that merchant bots will deliver goods a *very* long ways away, sailing past quite a few islands that have stalls both paying more and are closer. So, there is a good chance that merchant bots from the cobalt side are delivering commods to the midnight side. Since Cobalt has far more uncolonized islands, chances are, far more commods are now being shipped to midnight from cobalt than vice versa. More over, merchant bots don't care about time, but people do. So, it is unlikely that players are shipping much chalcocite from the two colonizeds islands on the midnight side to the cobalt side. I did raise this subject when OOO announced the ocean mergers. I take heart in knowing that it isn't that OOO doesn't just not care about blue oceans, meridian is pretty messed up for similar reasons. ---------------------------------------- Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent. |
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Aethera21
Joined: Aug 22, 2005 Posts: 2831 Status: Offline |
I run a ton of stuff from the midnight side to my shoppes and stalls in Jade now. The inequity of bidding price almost always favors midnight (herbs & minerals both). Luckily I like dnav, and have enough poe around to bid a lot before I run, but I know others aren't so lucky. More and more bazaars seem to have no stalls in them, these days. ---------------------------------------- Aethera of Princess of Maniacal Menagerie Blockade staff on any ocean Avatar by Bunnylaroo |
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TexasBeesh
Joined: Oct 14, 2005 Posts: 1754 Status: Offline |
As far as the count for sugar cane goes...are these still current? Xi fills way faster than Nu and Nu, according this this, has more spawn points. Nu's fill is agonizing and Emperor is worse. Sounds like the economy and spawn points/bids need to be looked at again if the merge caused such an imbalance. After looking at Jubilee and hearing about merchant delivery (lack of), no way do I want to open a stall here. It would be worse than the on I had on Nu. :/ ---------------------------------------- Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean LOW RACK PRICES AT DRESSED TO KILL - NAMATH Always looking for Pollack Sloops! |
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Zacb1
Joined: Aug 24, 2006 Posts: 407 Status: Offline |
Yet again Penguin you show a great knowledge and understanding of the game mechanics to which always impresses me. Garnet has long been the quiet arch, while the island count is identical to Jade and Onyx and number of inhabited islands isn't far off Onyx, it has always suffered a lower population and production rate, even before the merge. It has become more of an issue lately, potentially due to the spawning issues pointed out by Penguinpaste, another part I believe is that Garnet is a large archipelago with many LPs for Flotillas, Haunted Seas, Atlantis and Cursed Islands to spawn on. These activities demand highly on the local markets to supply (CBs and Rum), if you purely look at stall count in Garnet over the area and compare it to other Archipelagos you will find a lack of suppliers. The lack of commodities has affected me at Diastrophe too, I make and hoard stock from Jade and Onyx to keep the fort stocked. How do we fix it? Personally I believe you have to look at employing a few strategies to try and improve the situation. A Better Balance of Spawns Without a shadow of doubt there isn't much spawn in Garnet and if Penguin is correct then redressing the balance needs to be done to ensure people can get the commodities to make products. Get Labour and Stalls to the Area With the low population (and therefor rent) and high demand realistically it's should be a profitable business model to invest in and we need to try and encourage people to own shoppes/stalls in the area and keep them stocked. Lessen the Demand on Local Supplies A huge amount of Garnet is uninhabited, eleven out of eighteen islands (Jade only has five uninhabited islands out of eighteen), this causes a great amount of demand on the few shoppes and stalls there are. The balance of stalls per navigable LP (and potential Flotilla) could be redressed. Garnet Archipelago Map Potentially islands to the west side of garnet could be dropped, lowering the League Point count and reducing the demand and Flotilla responsibilities to a more even level with the rest of the ocean. BK Blockades are more likely in Garnet, blockades too affect stock levels. ---------------------------------------- Zacthedragon of Cerulean Monarch of What The Falchion |
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Greg4545
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You raise a very good point here. Since distillers raise the expert labour wages quite high to attract thsoe few jobbers that can generate it, their profits in this margin would shrink. This makes grog a more attaniable option at a higher profit margin. I was a bit general in my statement, not taking under the advisement the inflated wages for fine rum. I guess it's because not every distiller raises those prices above the standard, and if you don't do that, fine rum will produce higher profits. What will offset those profits is the limited fine rum production compared to grog which you can manufacture in greater quantities. It will all depend how you run your distillery, but the grog certainly favours newer distillers in profits. I provide my own expert labour, so I can make fine rum rather cheap, which turns a better profit for me, but it sure took me a while to get good enough at the puzzle to the point where I get the expert labour. Even now, it's touch and go. I can only say that OOO does not encourage drinking and there is a good community message somewhere in all of this :)
Of course, a distillery doesn't only make rum and there are a number of them that specialize in hemp oil. Those are, as in your case, mostly owned by those players who also have an alchemy stall. In this discussion, however, we were talking only about rum, so I didn't mention the oil, as it's a different topic. The bottom line is that distilling is a more complicated beast than people realize. Every business is. It's less profitable than most think, especially at the beginning. The profits are there, especially if you have a good location or expand over an area, but I would have to think long and hard to decide if Jubilee is a good location. As mentioned in this topic before, it's a pretty empty arch. One's profit would mainly come from the CIs and Lanties that would pop up around. Like right now. The only reason we seem to be talking about Jubilee is because of the sea monster hunts in the area. Once those maps dust, however, the rum sales on Jubilee would dwindle. Everyone's interest will be elswhewere and not many pirates will care if there is rum there. Untill the next CI in the area :) That said, that area seems to have quite a knack of producing CIs, HS and lanties, doesn't it? In the end, I am not trying to say that Jubilee should not have any rum. Far from it. This is a very good thread. Like anywhere else, it's to everyone's benefit to have both rum and shot available. I just wanted to point out the hidden challenges with rum production that I believe may be contributing to the Jubilee problem, using my experience as a rum seller and producer. No matter what we do, the island will, in the end, rely on the owners for rum supply. So, their efforts should not go unnoticed. Blackmane |
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GreatBob
Joined: Sep 3, 2005 Posts: 1465 Status: Offline |
Merchant bots work on a profit per league system, which essentially means that they will sail anywhere that has the highest overall profit as long as that profit is higher then the number of leagues times 10. This means that higher priced goods will ship farther then the basic commodities, which is also reflected in the way spawns are laid out. Chalcocite isn't bad, actually: Chalcocite: Giving an overall distribution of: Chalcocite: 10 Here's my version of the good, the bad, and the ugly: Good Wood: 1306 Bad Hemp: 1289 Ugly Sugar Cane: 2020 That doesn't tell quite the whole story, but the entire list of every spawn point on the ocean is rather long and I think even Donsmythe would tl;dr over it. All four dye herbs are in the ugly category in favor of Midnight, hence why You want to fix the rum problem in Garnet? Make it in Emerald and ship it across. ---------------------------------------- Penguinpaste, SO of Polaris, Obsidian. Dark side. Avatar by Phaerie. |
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wrs1864b
Joined: Apr 10, 2006 Posts: 6337 Status: Offline |
If I count them right, the midnight side has one (1) uncolonized island that spawns wood. The cobalt side has eight (8). The wood spawning on Hadrian (uncolonized large island) is only about 10% further from Eta than it is from Sakejima. So, unless you are running a couple of MGs of wood per day from the midnight side to locations across cobalt, then no, you are not running the tons of stuff needed to balance out what the merchant bots are likely shipping in the other direction. Again, this wouldn't have been as much of a problem if the oceans had always been merged. A third the population just wouldn't have settled on parts of the ocean that is now starved for various commods. Things will balance out once most of the people in the Jade arch either move or retire. And, again, it isn't just cerulean. Most of the population of meridian is now stuck in a corner of the ocean, far away from most of the merchant bots spawn. ---------------------------------------- Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent. |
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wrs1864b
Joined: Apr 10, 2006 Posts: 6337 Status: Offline |
Again, thanks for the data, it is quite interesting.
This isn't correct, merchant bots are not that simple. I do not know exactly how they run, but they will happily bypass islands that are both closer and offering to buy for more. For example my flag used to run diastrophe. It was only 3 leagues away from Moab, which was only source of chalcocite on cobalt. Even though I made sure the fort/shipyard were buying both chalcocite and cane, the merchant bots would regularly deliver chalcocite to my stall on Kirin even though it was 20+ leagues further away and people were paying less for both chalcocite and cane. I've seen similar things for stuff like sassafras. Merchant bots appear favor close and high profit destinations, but it certainly doesn't match the formula you mention. ---------------------------------------- Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent. |
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GreatBob
Joined: Sep 3, 2005 Posts: 1465 Status: Offline |
Please bear in mind that the number of buy offers also has an impact on merchants, and that there may be other variables or controls in the system to stop outposts from having a monopoly over certain commodities. They do work on a system of profit per league, however. ---------------------------------------- Penguinpaste, SO of Polaris, Obsidian. Dark side. Avatar by Phaerie. |
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Aethera21
Joined: Aug 22, 2005 Posts: 2831 Status: Offline |
Er, I didn't mean I was trying to fix the imbalance, did I imply that? I meant that I run many different things from Midnight to Cobalt, for my own personal use. Madder, Nettle and Elder are the most obvious ones for me. Since the merge Nettle on Cobalt has stayed well above 100, but I can bid constantly at Midsummer for 86, so I bid up a few hundred and then run it when I run other Midnight-side commods. Hemp, interestingly, I don't have too much of an issue with, most of the time. It'll fill with regularity in the northwest corner of Jade. Since the merge, I've been getting Elder, Nettle, Madder, Indigo (because I can bid it), Cowslip, Cubanite, Sincosite, Serandite and Cane from Midnight with regularity. The first 3 are the worst offenders, for certain, in terms of price difference and fill time. ---------------------------------------- Aethera of Princess of Maniacal Menagerie Blockade staff on any ocean Avatar by Bunnylaroo |
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TexasBeesh
Joined: Oct 14, 2005 Posts: 1754 Status: Offline |
It's too bad the world is not round. Then Garnet would not be so far away. I don't know how many really go across the ocean like they go between arches. I know I go across the arches for the Midnight side a good deal. But arch to arch islands tend to be pretty hospitable and they don't span 11+ Lps. So our only hope to really supply Garnet would be to go 59 or so LPs (Epsilon to Jubilee) with a ship full of nothing but rum. 40,500 on a cutter is a lot (at least to me). It's more efficient than bringing in sugar cane. I am sure it's a lot of work for the Devs to have a look at the merchant delivery/spawn issue. It seems like it would be a nightmare! ---------------------------------------- Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean LOW RACK PRICES AT DRESSED TO KILL - NAMATH Always looking for Pollack Sloops! |
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Zacb1
Joined: Aug 24, 2006 Posts: 407 Status: Offline |
As I remember you can't fit more than 32,767 units of any commodity on any ship. Theoretically you could put 540,000 units of rum on a Grand Frigate but a game mechanic prevents you from going over 32,767. This information has been provided by this old salt that tried this many years ago and found out the limit, the limit may have since been removed or altered and the information may be being misremembered. We accept no responsibility for any loss or damage you may suffer in connection with information provided by Zacthedragon. :) ---------------------------------------- Zacthedragon of Cerulean Monarch of What The Falchion |
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Momma_Wolf
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Now you have me curious ...is that of any ONE commodity, or in total? ---------------------------------------- Mommawolf, lurking on most oceans Captain, Blackwolf Marauders of Midnight, now Cerulean Queen, Victory Raiders of Midnight, now Cerulean cmdrzoom said:
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Aeternis
Joined: Oct 21, 2004 Posts: 1570 Status: Offline |
any one single commodity. So you may have 32767 rum, swill and grog each on a frig, but not 32768 of grog. ---------------------------------------- Locu on Cerulean and Opal (and some other Oceans) Check the Rack at Phakey's Tailor Stall on Tinga for nice clothes! Locu's Weaving Stall on Tinga and Cranberry Avatar by Cattrin |
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v76odessa
Joined: Jun 13, 2005 Posts: 1246 Status: Offline |
I make boo boo ---------------------------------------- Vova Home at Dies Irae. Harrjm tells you " I always wished I could grow up to be you" ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by v76odessa at Feb 15, 2013 7:58:36 AM] |
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laramy
Joined: May 11, 2004 Posts: 231 Status: Offline |
I would love to help by opening a stall and dump some rum there on the cobalt side, but it is quite a haul for uncertain results... I did look at opening production locally, but cane at 8 to 11 poe a pop is no go to me while rum is not supporting this price for cane. I will look into it again and I do welcome advice/possible help to possibly feed the cobalt side with reasonably priced rum... PM here or see me in game. ---------------------------------------- Laramy, Captain of iRum. Leader of the Rum Cartel. |
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laramy
Joined: May 11, 2004 Posts: 231 Status: Offline |
I always liked the idea of a "round" World. Already back when we were only on midnight, I supported the idea to have a cleo - vernal link for example. In today's time, under cerrulean, a link between sapphire/corral and west of cobalt could help in some ways. These eastern midnight arches also suffer poor population/traffic. ---------------------------------------- Laramy, Captain of iRum. Leader of the Rum Cartel. |
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hammer1
Joined: Aug 29, 2005 Posts: 343 Status: Offline |
Ye all know far to much. ---------------------------------------- Blackhammer. |
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TexasBeesh
Joined: Oct 14, 2005 Posts: 1754 Status: Offline |
Well maybe some islands really should be shutdown or even removed (all of Garnet? -Kidding). The comods that spawned/bid on at the islands then be redistributed. Wow the work that would take to do that might be ridiculous. Ok maybe just shut them down as far as being inhabited.
I love this. :) If the Devs can merge oceans, then they can make the world round! Bring back Velasco Thorsson! ---------------------------------------- Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean LOW RACK PRICES AT DRESSED TO KILL - NAMATH Always looking for Pollack Sloops! |
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Jeriannah
Joined: Jan 19, 2007 Posts: 218 Status: Offline |
A round world would likely be better, especially in terms of commods running. Having these connectors would also likely help increase pillaging to the lonely outer arches. A quick glance through the List & Anti-List on the YPPedia doesn't mention such a thing on either. So, who wants to wade into Game Design and post? I'm a bit over my head there, so I tend to refrain. ---------------------------------------- Anothersneak & Sneakysalt on Cerulean --- I collect Guppy sloops. Send me a /tell or PM. Avatar by Tilinka - a present from Arryarrwoot! :D |
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Aeternis
Joined: Oct 21, 2004 Posts: 1570 Status: Offline |
IIRC Hermes did say something about a round world and more problems with that than just the merger in one of the merger-threads. The devs would like that too, but it was too much effort back at that time. But may I just dreamt about that. ---------------------------------------- Locu on Cerulean and Opal (and some other Oceans) Check the Rack at Phakey's Tailor Stall on Tinga for nice clothes! Locu's Weaving Stall on Tinga and Cranberry Avatar by Cattrin |
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Aethera21
Joined: Aug 22, 2005 Posts: 2831 Status: Offline |
I'm not sure how they would design the map, but it would be neat to have links off the Western ends of Jade and Garnet to the Eastern ends of Sapphire and Coral. Garnet would definitely benefit, and I have to imagine Sapphire and Coral would as well. ---------------------------------------- Aethera of Princess of Maniacal Menagerie Blockade staff on any ocean Avatar by Bunnylaroo |
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Jeriannah
Joined: Jan 19, 2007 Posts: 218 Status: Offline |
I posted in Game Design's ask a poster thread, to see if it's been brought up elsewhere. When I try to search for the issue, I get so many returns I want to smash my toes with a hammer. Even if the map is left as is, and just has notations to the sides of the connectors, that might work. ---------------------------------------- Anothersneak & Sneakysalt on Cerulean --- I collect Guppy sloops. Send me a /tell or PM. Avatar by Tilinka - a present from Arryarrwoot! :D |
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TexasBeesh
Joined: Oct 14, 2005 Posts: 1754 Status: Offline |
Ooo yes! It could be like falling off the face of the Earth (using current flat map), but hey! wait! you pop out on to Garnet! Velasco Thorsson, we need you! Come chart they way! ---------------------------------------- Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean LOW RACK PRICES AT DRESSED TO KILL - NAMATH Always looking for Pollack Sloops! |
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Thegreyman
Joined: May 19, 2006 Posts: 80 Status: Offline |
Wouldn't popping out in Garnet be a fate worse than falling for eternity? ---------------------------------------- Jthebear, SO of Imperial Golden Dragons Prince of Dragon's Quest Sloop Accumulator Coffeetar by Phaerie, doesn't it make you want to hunt up some scones? |
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Jeriannah
Joined: Jan 19, 2007 Posts: 218 Status: Offline |
Not if we can get some sugarcane there for rum. Then it'll just be a lonely beach party. And trust me, there's worse things than sitting on a beach with rum. ---------------------------------------- Anothersneak & Sneakysalt on Cerulean --- I collect Guppy sloops. Send me a /tell or PM. Avatar by Tilinka - a present from Arryarrwoot! :D |
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TexasBeesh
Joined: Oct 14, 2005 Posts: 1754 Status: Offline |
LOL!!!! Maybe once you leave the midnight side to venture to the cobalt side the waters become black and murky! You might wish that you had fallen for all eternity. ---------------------------------------- Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean LOW RACK PRICES AT DRESSED TO KILL - NAMATH Always looking for Pollack Sloops! |
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