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phaedra6

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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@Talisker
I went back to look for "evidence", and instead realized I kinda misunderstood this one:
Talisker quoting Randomact wrote: 
That's a surprisingly salient point for so early in the game. There's really no good reason for asking in thread, if you're innocent.

I took this as jumping to the conclusion that she's a rogue, but all you are saying is that it does not really make sense to do such thing from an innocent point of view. That is a different.

On gut voting:
We keep arguing whether the gut feel is a good enough justification, while we cannot really call the vote in question a gut vote in the first place. It seems more like a random one being called a gut one. Some sort of behavior or action has to occur before you can have a gut reaction to it...
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Disappear

Formerly and occasionally lurking around as Phaedra
SO of False Pretense
 
Bunnyspawn says, "Well, Dis, you have finally convinced me of your loss of innocence."
Bunnyspawn says, "I am frightened."

[May 26, 2012 8:03:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lotsofgoats

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@phaedra: riku may not have explicitly said that gut is enough of a reason for a vote, but I didn't (and still don't) understand why you would defend briney (even if that's just by attacking his attackers) unless you were convinced that it is. Mrbriney is at a whole new level of gut voting, that's the thing. It was straight out of the gates. To swoop in and say, "Whoa, lay off the guy!" still makes no sense to me unless you think that the offense was all fine and dandy. That's not me twisting words, that's me interpreting actions. I really, really don't like being drawn in that light because it's simply not true.

You're free to say that you disagree with how I see the situation, but these constant claims that I don't understand what's being said or that I'm twisting words is bogus, and really frustrating. It pretty much happens to me every game. I really want to not feel bad about bringing things up that I find suspicious, and it always seems to be the case that several people have a problem when I do.


Moving on, I think that this point by mads is a notable one:
mads wrote: 
Firebolt's pretty quiet too, thinking about it. Perhaps it's the whole "posted twice and got jumped on" thing?

That could also apply to a townie, of course, since being in the spotlight is by default bad for your team. In any case, I think that it's important that she shows her face more. It still itches me that Elliptic took us all for a ride last game >_<
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[May 26, 2012 8:04:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lotsofgoats

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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phaedra wrote: 
On gut voting:
We keep arguing whether the gut feel is a good enough justification, while we cannot really call the vote in question a gut vote in the first place. It seems more like a random one being called a gut one. Some sort of behavior or action has to occur before you can have a gut reaction to it...

I actually agree with you here. It wasn't really "gut" in the sense that we use here in ROMS, which is kinda messing with my brain a little. For the purposes of riku v. taelac, though, he takes issue with her questioning briney when it comes to "gut", as that's the only justification that he presented her at the time.
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[May 26, 2012 8:08:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
phaedra6

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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@Goats
I don't think Riku was really defending MrBriney or gut voting, he was just pointing out that if somebody calls "gut", it does not make sense to ask for an explanation, and doing so is weird.
In addition, he went after those who started questioning MrBriney (Kotetsu and Tae). Doing so makes total sense to me, as pointing fingers to Briney would be an easy and quite constructive thing to do from a rogue point of view on day1.

What I don't see is why you're voting him. Defending somebody so openly so early in the game would certainly be strange behavior from a rogue... A lot less subtle than what Kotetsu and Tae did there.

Also, by no means did I mean to make you feel bad about posting your opinions and interpretations of actions. I guess we are just thinking differently, and that's why it sometimes feels to me as twisting words. Please don't take it personally. I will just sometimes question you, and go "booo, Goats, you are suspicious", but I will do that with many many other people too! <3
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Disappear

Formerly and occasionally lurking around as Phaedra
SO of False Pretense
 
Bunnyspawn says, "Well, Dis, you have finally convinced me of your loss of innocence."
Bunnyspawn says, "I am frightened."

[May 26, 2012 8:33:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
firebolt153

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Lotsofgoats wrote: 
Moving on, I think that this point by mads is a notable one:
mads wrote: 
Firebolt's pretty quiet too, thinking about it. Perhaps it's the whole "posted twice and got jumped on" thing?

That could also apply to a townie, of course, since being in the spotlight is by default bad for your team. In any case, I think that it's important that she shows her face more. It still itches me that Elliptic took us all for a ride last game >_<


It's partly that, and partly that I generally observe what is happening before I form thoughts and post them. Otherwise most of what you'd get from me would be lots of snark. Not really helpful to the town :p

Preview edit: stupid broken tags
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[May 26, 2012 8:35:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lotsofgoats

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phae I think you're looking at it like I'm saying that riku and Mrbriney are both rogues, and that riku is just backing up his teammate. That's possible, but much less likely and not really what I'm thinking. I agree that it would be really obvious. I think it's more likely that a rogue riku is trying to garner favor from an innocent briney, and possibly in general from the town with a post hoc, "I told you guys not to vote him!" kinda deal.

I know it's early to be making a double-read, but my feelings on briney are extrapolated from how I feel about riku. That one-way interaction (is there a word for that?) is the most suspicious thing that I've seen so far, and I feel strongly enough about it for a vote.
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[May 26, 2012 9:01:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prosperity

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Master wrote: 
Well then.
#Unvote: MrBriney

It's going in the record books, so good enough for now.

Also, fluffily enough, I opened my disk drive on my laptop and two screws fell out D:
I checked every screw hole in the disk drive, and they were there, so I get to tear the laptop apart now. Joy.

This stood out to me, the "going in the record books" part. To me it sounds like Master is saying he's content in that his vote on Mrbriney will be seen later in the game. Please correct me if my interpretation is wrong, Master. If that's the case, it just makes me wonder why Master's reason for voting is to be seen by the town doing certain things. It seems to me that rogues are more concerned with appearing to be going the "right thing" by the rest of town than townies would be. Also, something about Master's attitude towards voting for Mrbriney when he did and when he's now unvoted him doesn't match up for me.
Master wrote: 
The above isn't really a JMT, as we all want to stay alive and play whether rogue or innocent.

And awfully quick to cover your own tracks, Master. I've tended to shy away from the "classic" rogue tells like the JMT in recent games, though I may take note of one here or there. The post I'm quoting never would have jumped out at me as a JMT without you saying this.

I think one of the reasons Mrbriney's gut vote doesn't bother me is because I've played so much Mafia/Werewolf outside of Y!PP forums. His gut vote is the norm for other forum communities that play. I consider his vote a null tell, and I think his explanation was pretty sound. I want to take a look at some of the people looking at him though.
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[May 26, 2012 9:57:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
master2482

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Setsusa wrote: 
I like bacon
Master's weird

I'm glad to be second to bacon in your thoughts.
Furare wrote: 
I'm not sure why people were bothered by Master saying things that don't make much sense. (<3)

So much love.

Luvessy wrote: 
Master wrote: 
Well then.
#Unvote: MrBriney

It's going in the record books, so good enough for now.

Also, fluffily enough, I opened my disk drive on my laptop and two screws fell out D:
I checked every screw hole in the disk drive, and they were there, so I get to tear the laptop apart now. Joy.

This stood out to me, the "going in the record books" part. To me it sounds like Master is saying he's content in that his vote on Mrbriney will be seen later in the game. Please correct me if my interpretation is wrong, Master. If that's the case, it just makes me wonder why Master's reason for voting is to be seen by the town doing certain things. It seems to me that rogues are more concerned with appearing to be going the "right thing" by the rest of town than townies would be. Also, something about Master's attitude towards voting for Mrbriney when he did and when he's now unvoted him doesn't match up for me.

Actually, yeah. That's pretty right. But me, or anyone, off voting by themselves isn't very good for the town. It's best for us to come to a consensus, and if that consensus isn't my vote, then I don't mind taking it off. You all see that I'm suspicious of him, and voted him, and explained myself.
Also, I totally never act the same.

Luvessy wrote: 
Master wrote: 
The above isn't really a JMT, as we all want to stay alive and play whether rogue or innocent.

And awfully quick to cover your own tracks, Master. I've tended to shy away from the "classic" rogue tells like the JMT in recent games, though I may take note of one here or there. The post I'm quoting never would have jumped out at me as a JMT without you saying this.



Goats, I completely understand how you think Riku is being all buddy-buddy to MrBriney here. However, there are potential reasons other than a rogue buddying up with a new player or rogue helping out a rogue. He could just be trying to help out a new guy.
That being said, I know all three are possible, I just feel like you aren't looking at all possibilities.
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The people about there, had they been awake instead of asleep, at other times would have seen even stranger things. Some day, but not at this time, I shall make an announcement of something that I never once dreamed of.

[May 26, 2012 11:20:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
phaedra6

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Goats wrote: 
phae I think you're looking at it like I'm saying that riku and Mrbriney are both rogues, and that riku is just backing up his teammate.

Yeah, since that was the only reason I could think of.
Goats wrote: 
I think it's more likely that a rogue riku is trying to garner favor from an innocent briney, and possibly in general from the town with a post hoc, "I told you guys not to vote him!" kinda deal.

While I'm not sure I see that happening, it is indeed proper justification for your vote, and something I did not consider before.
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Disappear

Formerly and occasionally lurking around as Phaedra
SO of False Pretense
 
Bunnyspawn says, "Well, Dis, you have finally convinced me of your loss of innocence."
Bunnyspawn says, "I am frightened."

[May 26, 2012 11:20:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
JMRUDNICK

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Master.. Those quotes weren't Luvessy's they were Prosperity's.
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[May 26, 2012 11:29:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
master2482

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Oh shoot me. Names aren't my thing this game.
Sorry D:
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The people about there, had they been awake instead of asleep, at other times would have seen even stranger things. Some day, but not at this time, I shall make an announcement of something that I never once dreamed of.

[May 26, 2012 11:31:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
riku743

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Phaedra wrote: 
Smiley abstain. What? Why? Just weird.

This reaction doesn't make any sense to me. You make it sound like it's a totally alien thing to consider abstaining, when you abstained Day 1 last game. It feels like jumping to the side of the debate that now has the most people behind it. Low FoS.
Furare wrote: 
Town can win this game without roleholders. It cannot win this game without lynching.

Your point would be valid if we weren't just talking about not lynching Day 1.

(Although I do think this game has gotten off to a good enough start for a lynch Day 1 to be a better option than I did originally)
Jokerina wrote: 
So, you just think someone is a rogue for no reason? That is just comes out of thin air?

If you would like to know my thoughts on gut votes, read the parts of my post that you snipped out of the quote.
Jokerina wrote: 
If you go to your boss and say you think someone is up to something, they're going to ask what that person did to make you think something.

You're missing the most significant part of the analogy where the person going to the boss says "I don't have any evidence" and the boss says "What evidence do you have?".

Goats wrote: 
To swoop in and say, "Whoa, lay off the guy!" still makes no sense to me unless you think that the offense was all fine and dandy.

It wouldn't make any sense if I was saying "Whoa, lay off the guy!". You're right about that. However, that's pretty clearly not what happened.

Master wrote: 
He could just be trying to help out a new guy.

...or I could be doing what I'm saying I'm doing, which is being questioning Kotetsu and Taelac's methods of attack. Nope, that's too simple.

Goats wrote: 
I think it's more likely that a rogue riku is trying to garner favor from an innocent briney

Perhaps you see things differently, but I haven't read MrBriney so far as being the kind of person who would be any less suspicious of someone attacking his attackers.
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[May 26, 2012 11:49:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SeastarX

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Now I have a working mouse I can actually copy/paste again. No idea how some people manage without one at all.

On MrBriney: The only thing that really puzzles me here is why he waited to give the explanation for the vote. If he'd just said 'I remember rogues trying to get new players on-side' that would've likely been perfectly sufficient, especially on Day 1. The delay makes it seem odder. My initial reaction to the actual justification was that I'm not sure I could see new player Firebolt, if a rogue, trying to 'Get the new guy on side, right' as pretty much the first thing she does. On further consideration, I suppose it's a possibility, but it still seems kinda unlikely and the apparent dismissal of the alternative option (an innocent new player just commenting on something she might be thinking about too) makes me a little twitchy. Watchlisting MrBriney for now.

Yasmi wrote: 
Personally i dont think phoenixstar's mod clarification indicate to wherther she is a rogue or innocent, I think she wanted for everyone to know her queries... Also it would be very early for a rogue to be making a mistake.
The former part is fine and I already posted that I have the same thoughts on that. The latter feels a bit like another 'no rogue here' type comment not too dissimilar to smiley's earlier on.

classy wrote: 
(So do I get bonus points now for being basically forgotten about a la Seastarx)
Welcome to my shiny club! It's quite exclusive but alas has no bonus points.

Aaand, I'm being called away as I have to shift accommodation this evening. Will post this and finish later (internet access at the new place allowing; if not then tomorrow morning).
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[May 26, 2012 11:50:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
master2482

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Riku wrote: 

Master wrote: 
He could just be trying to help out a new guy.

...or I could be doing what I'm saying I'm doing, which is being questioning Kotetsu and Taelac's methods of attack. Nope, that's too simple.

Exactly! This guy knows what's up.
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The people about there, had they been awake instead of asleep, at other times would have seen even stranger things. Some day, but not at this time, I shall make an announcement of something that I never once dreamed of.

[May 26, 2012 11:54:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
phaedra6

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Riku, that was a different game with a lot less content on day 1. Also, I'm not in the abstain camp, or anything like that, so I did find it odd that somebody would abstain that early on, especially when so much is being discussed.
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Disappear

Formerly and occasionally lurking around as Phaedra
SO of False Pretense
 
Bunnyspawn says, "Well, Dis, you have finally convinced me of your loss of innocence."
Bunnyspawn says, "I am frightened."

[May 26, 2012 11:58:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
lyaka

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Oh my god, all the posts. Well, this game won't be boring :p I'm doing memorial day stuff with my family this weekend, but I can see that the postcount and wordcount will not be suffering by my absence.

Just a couple of observations on the goings on thus far. (I'm doing the thing where I keep up with reading on my phone, then get back to my laptop to make posts, so my thoughts will tend to come in digest form.)

Tae vs MrBriney: This seems a lot like two innocents (or at least non-rogues, stupid multifaction games) going back and forth over something that is actually relatively minor. It's not that neither of them have made salient points, but fundamentally this started as a molehill and now it's a mountain.

Oh, and...

riku wrote: 
I can say from my own experience that gut feelings are not always (and not often) triggered by something specific. In fact, that's what usually leads them to be characterized as gut feels -- someone reads as suspicious, but you can't nail down why. Trying to pin a justification to a gut often leads you to over-placing suspicion on something that really isn't that suspicious, due to trying to account for your gut feeling.


This.

...and then Goats votes based on this. Really? I found this worthy of a QFT, and you found it worthy of a vote. Of course, I had my now-infamous "three points" gut-vote on Talisker two games ago, so maybe my view is skewed here. But Goats' reasoning raises an eyebrow...

Goats wrote: 
I know that riku is generally playing defense lawyer in many arguments made in the game, but this one seems off.


That's kind of a gut feeling right there, isn't it? The bit I just quoted is the beginning of Goats' post, and he goes on to talk about a few other things, but I find it significant that his opening argument is a gut-based suspicion on a player who defended gut-based votes. It's self-contradictory at the very least, and I'm wondering if perhaps you are not trying to save your buddy-buddy's bum.

---------------

Re: items. I completely missed the part where items could be transferred between players, which nicely invalidates a lot of my arguments, since items are not 'use it or lose it' after all. This pleases me since it allows itemholders to be a bit more selective and have strategic decisions to make about the dispositions of items.

I also see that several people have suggested that items should not be talked about. I've gone in and out of the 'don't talk about things' camp, but given that there actually doesn't seem to be much to talk about at the moment, I have no problem holding off- at least until the situation changes- so this is official notice that I'm dropping this conversation thread.

---------------

Furare wrote: 
I had been going to mention Lyaka's assertion that the OP suggested non-rogue non-town factions, but I see Marinated beat me to the punch. I couldn't find any mention of neutral roles in the rules. I suppose "conversion" might suggest "cult" to some people, but I would really expect some sort of line about neutral win conditions in that case.


A couple of things suggested to me that there would be multiple factions:

* The reference to converstion, as you point out
* The reference (in the OP) to communication outside the thread being restricted to gang forums. Not 'rogue' forums, but 'gang' forums. The use of a neutral term (gang vs rogue) implies that there is more than one non-innocent faction.
* Bans revealing status as well as lynches, while 'other methods of death' (not expanded on) conceal it. This strongly implies that these other methods of death will be plentiful, not just one guy with one power, if in order to balance that bans reveal status. This, in turn, suggested the possibility (to me) that the people with non-ban-or-lynch kill abilities constitute a faction.
* It's a role-heavy game. Every ROMS role-heavy game has included a neutral faction, so I assumed this game would too.

As I said, suggestions and assumptions.
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Furare wrote: 
...disagreeing with you always feels pretty indistinguishable from being wrong.


Talisker wrote: 
...it's actually a Lyakarchy.

[May 26, 2012 12:13:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lotsofgoats

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Mkay, I'm pretty sure that "gut" is the new "tunnel vision". When I personally see the word "gut" used as a justification, I take it to mean a general feeling of unease that cannot be explained or explicitly nailed down to something. I'm suspicious of riku because of something that I've explained at length several times now. Trying to fit "gut" into my reasoning based on one sentence is nonsense.


So basically I'm left with Lyaka saying, "no u!" to what I've said about riku.
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[May 26, 2012 1:09:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
taelac

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Apologies--this is out of order. I got caught up on the reading and then realize I'd forgotten to open the things I wanted to respond to in new tabs, so have had to go back and try to find them again.

Riku wrote: 
You're missing the most significant part of the analogy where the person going to the boss says "I don't have any evidence" and the boss says "What evidence do you have?".

Your analogy would work better as: "I have a strange feeling that this other employee is up to something." "Why?" "I just have a strange feeling." "That's baloney. Something is either giving you a strange feeling or you're making barnacle up to try to make trouble for another employee. Figure it out and tell me what it is, or you're the one who's getting written up."

SeastarX wrote: 
On MrBriney: The only thing that really puzzles me here is why he waited to give the explanation for the vote. If he'd just said 'I remember rogues trying to get new players on-side' that would've likely been perfectly sufficient, especially on Day 1. The delay makes it seem odder. My initial reaction to the actual justification was that I'm not sure I could see new player Firebolt, if a rogue, trying to 'Get the new guy on side, right' as pretty much the first thing she does. On further consideration, I suppose it's a possibility, but it still seems kinda unlikely and the apparent dismissal of the alternative option (an innocent new player just commenting on something she might be thinking about too) makes me a little twitchy. Watchlisting MrBriney for now.

That's a pretty good summation of where I ended up. Prosperity's comment about essentially random Day 1 votes in other venues is well-taken, and I probably would have given him a pass if he'd said it was a random vote, because I know that it is common elsewhere.

Setsusa wrote: 
Briney/Tae saga: Really Tae? I mean, really? You kept asking till he changed his answer to something you were satisfied with. Starting to seem like it's just the way you play, but man this whole situation seems overblown. Like I said, a bunch of you (us?) get upset over "pressure" votes or voting at all when really, a random vote gets things going. Ex: This game. Last game. Probably the game before that.

I kept asking until I got an answer to my question, then stopped asking, which, yes, is pretty much how I play, since information is half what the game turns on. I've pretty clearly stated that I'm not entirely satisfied with it, because there's not really any reason it couldn't have been said when he voted. Also, please note that I never claimed that I thought Mrbriney's vote had anything to do with pressure, and that I have been known to apply pressure votes myself, to varying degrees of success. I even tried to explain to Master the difference between a pressure vote and the type of vote Mrbriney placed. You seem to be conflating my response to Mrbriney and Master's response to Mrbriney in this comment.

Searmin wrote: 
An even better question would be, "how many arguments against rogues could have started on Day 1?"

More than usually are. And even a weak argument against a rogue on Day 1 means the rogues have to consider how to manage the attention, so it's useful to try, I think.

Lyaka wrote: 
Goats wrote: 
I know that riku is generally playing defense lawyer in many arguments made in the game, but this one seems off.

That's kind of a gut feeling right there, isn't it? The bit I just quoted is the beginning of Goats' post, and he goes on to talk about a few other things, but I find it significant that his opening argument is a gut-based suspicion on a player who defended gut-based votes.

The rest of that post goes on to explain what specifically about Riku's behavior Goats finds off. That's not a vote based on gut, it's based on an interpretation of actually cited evidence of actions Riku has actually taken in the thread. I'm curious why you chose to disregard the rest of the post in order to make this argument, since it falls to straw as soon as you look at the very next sentence.

I don't necessarily agree with the interpretation, because I don't really see a rogue Riku being so...energetic...in his defense of either a fellow rogue or a player he's trying to use for FoI. Riku's pretty well hitched to Mrbriney at this point, and if either turns up rogue, it's likely to go badly for the other--something rogue Riku would have to know. I can see how Goats might come to a different conclusion than I have at this point, though.

Although...it occurs to me that Riku hasn't really seemed to consider the possibility that Mrbriney could be a rogue, which could indicate a lack of uncertainty about Mrbriney's status. I'll have to think about that and read back over that exchange if I get a chance.

If nothing else, Mrbriney's vote has sparked quite a bit of discussion, about several different players and actions, so yay for an active Day 1. It promises to be an exciting game.
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~Taelac
ROMS XVII:Vanilla Filler
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[May 26, 2012 1:10:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
taelac

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Goats wrote: 
Mkay, I'm pretty sure that "gut" is the new "tunnel vision". When I personally see the word "gut" used as a justification, I take it to mean a general feeling of unease that cannot be explained or explicitly nailed down to something.

I thought that's what Riku was saying?
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ROMS XVII:Vanilla Filler
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[May 26, 2012 1:17:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lotsofgoats

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I think it is too. The problem is that people think that this is a conversation strictly about gut voting in the general sense, which it is not. I'm only interesting in talking about the exact situation at hand involving briny's "gut" vote, taelac's questioning, and riku's response, but people seem to be applying things that I've said much more broadly than they are intended.


I was going to re-clarify my point here yet again, but I don't think that it's helpful to the town at this point.
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[May 26, 2012 1:29:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
taelac

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Ah, okay, I think I'm following you, now.

For my part, I think there's always some odd turn of phrase or something that can be pointed to with a gut read, and what makes it a gut read is not being able to quite put your finger on why it makes you twitch.
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~Taelac
ROMS XVII:Vanilla Filler
Dead Thread
[May 26, 2012 1:43:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marinated

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JMR wrote: 
I have to go back and double check what I was writing to see where I screwed up. I had a bunch of cats jump on the keyboard, they may or may not have deleted a whole sentence.

Any update on this?

Setsusa wrote: 
I still think quite a few of the players who've returned from lengthy hiatuses, haitusii? are jumping the gun to point their fingers. Maybe that's just because I think your cases aren't strong and you're poking your fingers in to try and find something which is all well and good but some of it seems like "HA, I'VE FOUND YOU ROGUE, TELL ME YOUR SECRETS" ...

I find this an odd grouping to use. It could only apply to AL, Kot, Mouse and maybe The_Jokerina so why not just mention them by name? What makes them different as a group to others? Or are you saying they are the only ones to do this?

Talisker wrote: 
Stepping into the middle of a busy Day, saying, "Nothing to see here" and voting abstain is likely to give the impression you're not much interested in rogue hunting.

Or that Smileo wanted to deflect attention from Phoenix?

Duck wrote: 
Here if you wanted to find it.

Er... Why would I need to find it when I quoted it and gave the link in my post? This smacks of trying to look active while not actually reading.

AhoyLindsay wrote: 
I still suspect Jokerina as her posting has been noncommital. She's said that she agrees and disagrees with certain playing strategies (ex: agrees with pressure voting, disagrees with extrapolating from one's own playstyle), but she's declined to suspect anyone thus far and also declined to say whether she intends to abstain, vote, or not vote. This manner of posting would be advantageous for a rogue, because they can avoid taking hard stances and instead decide what opinion/action would be safe based on how the wind blows later on. Thus, FoS.

I could understand being suspicious of someone posting this way later in the game, but on Day one there must be quite a few this could apply to (I would be pleasantly surprised if there weren't). Why does Jokerina stand out to you more than the others? What was wrong with her statement re: voting in her very first post?

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Sleepyjo - on all oceans
[May 26, 2012 1:45:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AhoyLindsay

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Jokerina wrote: 
I believe I said I will vote for someone if I feel suspicious enough of someone to.
You did, but since you've said you don't want to point to people as rogues yet, that doesn't necessarily leave us more enlightened. However, I concede that your most recent post mentioned some suspicions. I'll keep watching for the moment.
In other news, I no longer suspect Talisker, because I now have more of a read on him whereas before I was going off of first day paranoia.

I am beginning to wonder about Lyaka. I noticed the same thing taelac did about her taking the Goats quote out of context. It's only when you look at it in isolation that that sentence would imply the suspicion being mostly gut-based; right afterwards he explained the specific actions that caused his suspicion.

So far the thing with Goats has also been Lyaka's only non-meta contribution. She's been sticking to noninflammatory meta things, like item strategy and whether there are neutral factions (and I also can't help but think that it would be nice for the rogues if all the items were gotten out of the way immediately, when they'll do less damage-even if one caught a rogue, so early on it would be difficult to connect that rogue back to others. Plus, probabilities are currently less for them [as far as chances of getting affected by an item] than they would/will be once the rogues have killed off some townies).
She's been pretty calm so far, and it looks like she might be hoping to glide by for a few rounds without attracting too much attention. FoS there.

I'd vote for Lyaka or Jokerina if others were going to, with the caveat that I would back off if the other voters looked like a rogue bandwagon of some sort. Also, if MrBriney is in danger, I would unvote/vote elsewhere to save him, since I don't think a rogue would want to draw attention with an early unsupported vote, and I think that diverse townie playstyles give rogues fewer hiding spots.

I'll
#Vote: Lyaka
for the time being and check back in periodically.
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Castawayjoe of the Midnight Ocean.
To err is human, but to arr is pirate.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Catharsis on Cobalt and Malachite.
[May 26, 2012 1:47:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AhoyLindsay

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@Marinated:
The thing with her original post was when it was later combined with this response to one of my suspicions:
 
For me, it is very early to start pointing people as rogues.
She said she would consider voting if someone was suspicious enough, but then didn't want to say whether she thought any people suspicious, which made her earlier stance less meaningful.
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Castawayjoe of the Midnight Ocean.
To err is human, but to arr is pirate.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Catharsis on Cobalt and Malachite.
[May 26, 2012 1:55:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marinated

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In the context she wrote that, I took it to mean she didn't have enough information yet and was waiting for more before stating her suspicions. Not that she didn't want to.

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Sleepyjo - on all oceans
[May 26, 2012 2:22:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
JMRUDNICK

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Yes. Marinted, there's an update on my earlier post. It seems like I did not forget a word nor did a word/sentence delete. It seems as if I had a thought in my head and I didn't finish it correctly at the time of my post and it conversed with the sentence and made it sound wrong. Looking back at it I can't remember what I was thinking to even correct where my sentence went wrong nor what my thought process was. I was distracted when I posted and did not proofread before posting.
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JeanneMarie of Obsidian
Formerly of Meridian
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[May 26, 2012 2:34:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nalanthi



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furare wrote: 
If I think y'all talk too much, then y'all talk too much.
QFT - Lyaka and I have been trying to find time to read and post while off visiting her friends in Jersey, this post finally took me three hours to write.
Now I am going to deconstruct your post in the order you made it as I have been planning to do it all day but haven't had time.
furare wrote: 
On my vote - I decided before the game even started that I was going to vote the first person who voted Abstain. It's got nothing to do with whether or not that person is always like that, or whether they might change their vote later, or... well, none of that matters to me. At all. I think Searmin made the point once that psychologically there's something harder about changing an existing vote than making one in the first place. Not voting until you know who to vote for is good. Sticking an Abstain out there until you figure out what you want to do is less so. I don't like Abstain votes in general. I especially don't like Abstain votes when they're a standard first Day policy. The only way I have to show my displeasure in an obvious and notable way is to vote on it.
Now it seems odd yo me that you would pick smileo to be your vote. Sure he voted abstain, but there were three people who stated that they were planning to abstain but thought that actually voting abstain was a weird way to show this. These people were in order, Phoe, Setsusa, and then me. I in fact made one of the strongest case, for the day one abstention and you haven't actually called any of us out at all. If it bothers you so much why are you only going after one person?
furare wrote: 
I said in my last post, and I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but the whole "Don't lynch or we might lynch a roleholder by accident!" thing really hacks me off. Here's why: in role games, roleholders get lynched. It happens. Town frequently still wins in spite of this. Here's the rub: Town can win this game without roleholders. It cannot win this game without lynching. Allowing the game to stagnate by not doing what we all came here for (lynch suspected rogues) is not the way I want to play.
Without roleholders, we are trusting that the rogues will make a mistake that will let us catch them. While this happens, there are also many games where it does not happen. Roleholders do give the town an edge. I am not arguing that we should not lynch ever, or even not lynch starting on day 2. Most roles function during the night period. Also, the first ban is the rogues first real chance to make a mistake. So on day 2 the roleholders have more information that they can hopefully use to shield themselves and we have more information on the rogues. On day one the lynch is essentially random. On day 2 this does not have to be the case.

I can walk to work. I choose to drive because it is easier. Just because something might work does not mean we should all do it.
furare wrote: 
I don't especially care that we lynch innocents (this is a constant across games whether I am a rogue or an innocent) because I feel like not lynching does more harm to the game momentum than lynching an innocent does. You gotta try or you don't get nowhere, y'see? The fact that we lynch the wrong sort of people isn't a function of "Day 1 crapshoot" or "Day 2 bandwagon analysis"; it's because we look for the wrong things, we jump at the wrong things, and we give the wrong people a pass because of who they are and how they naturally post. If you value logic and coherence so much that you kill people just for being illogical or incoherent, you're not going to have a great rogue catching record.
Yea, sure ok. I agree, starting on day 2.
furare wrote: 
Smiley - I said "generally", which I think changes the tone of the assertion somewhat. You do favour Abstains. I don't. I think the "Abstain as default position on Day 1" attitude needs to be stamped out. If you don't think that's your attitude then I've misunderstood you, not misconstrued you. To be honest, I'm not interested in justifying my vote. I don't think you're a rogue necessarily, I don't think you're innocent necessarily, I don't know and it doesn't matter. I voted the first person to vote Abstain because I'd decided pre-game that I was going to do that. That's all the justification my vote has or needs.
I disagree, If Smileo was the only one who had pushed abstaining then it would make sense. Smileo didn't push an abstain agenda, he just said, I'm gonna do this thing and then did it. Several others have stated they will probably abstain and tried to push abstaining on other people, which apparently really hacks you off but you never called any of us out on it? Really?

The sad thing is I am not really generating FoS as a result of this, you just seem to read as pissed of innocent. Anyway, I will be watching.

Watchlist:
Furare
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Nalanthi - A Blatant PvPer, War Monger and Officer of the Falcon's Fury.
-Midnight (Retired)
Tamman - Head of a Merchant Empire, and Strategist of Black Plague
-Viridian (Retired)
Nalanthi - Mercenary and scalawag.
-Malachite
[May 26, 2012 2:48:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Setsusa

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Marinated wrote: 
Setsusa wrote: 
I still think quite a few of the players who've returned from lengthy hiatuses, haitusii? are jumping the gun to point their fingers. Maybe that's just because I think your cases aren't strong and you're poking your fingers in to try and find something which is all well and good but some of it seems like "HA, I'VE FOUND YOU ROGUE, TELL ME YOUR SECRETS" ...


I find this an odd grouping to use. It could only apply to AL, Kot, Mouse and maybe The_Jokerina so why not just mention them by name? What makes them different as a group to others? Or are you saying they are the only ones to do this?


Well, in regards to those players and it was the general impression I got from Abiona last game, and Lyaka the game before. Hiatus -> return -> EVERYONE IS A ROGUE FOR FLIMSY REASON Y. Nalanthi could fall into the above group as well, I don't see "Yeah, wife, Leif does seem like a rogue" as playing.
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[May 26, 2012 2:58:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Furare

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riku743 wrote: 
Your point would be valid if we weren't just talking about not lynching Day 1.


After last game, who knows how many no-lynches we're talking about. :P

But seriously, saying "we shouldn't lynch Day 1 because there's not enough information" is one thing (and meets with a completely different objection from me) but saying "we shouldn't lynch Day 1 because we might hit a roleholder" is another thing entirely. Because every time we vote for someone in a game like this, we could be pushing a roleholder closer to the gallows. I don't think the probability goes down as time goes on, particularly. And given that roled innocent = innocent with something to hide, the probability might even go up.

The whole thing just kinda smacks of "It's too dangerous to try to lynch rogues", really.

@Lyaka: I was reading "Gang" as just being what the rogues are called this game. I mean, it says the game can end with a town or a gang victory, which I think supports that interpretation.

Meh, anyway, I would make a real post but I'm tired so tomorrow will have to do.

Preview @Nalanthi: If town can't win a game without roleholders, it doesn't deserve to win games. Rogues always make mistakes. Always. I have never seen a game played where the rogues didn't slip up somewhere. I'm now remembering Riku saying last game that he doesn't like role games as much because there's the feeling that some innocents are worth more than others. I see what he means. Prioritising roleholders' safety over the one way we can actually win the game is kinda rubbish, to be honest. And there's actually a remarkable amount of info out there for Day 1. I don't think a vote placed now would necessarily be a random one at all.

And I didn't pick Smiley to vote, he (unwittingly) picked himself. Talking about voting abstain =/= voting abstain. And I'm not going after him. I have actually explained what I don't like about the attitude. It's not "I think you're suspicious", it's "I think you're wrong". I didn't call anyone on their intention to vote abstain without actually doing it because (a) other people had already talked about it and (b) I really don't think choosing to vote abstain or saying you probably will vote abstain or even saying that abstaining is the best or only idea on Day 1 is a suspicious circumstance. It's wrong, wrong, wrong and I hate it but it's not suspicious. I figured a vote on the first person to vote Abstain for realz, followed by an explanation of why I don't like the attitude at all, would be sufficient to press my point. Which despite the inevitably specific nature of my vote, is a general one.
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[May 26, 2012 3:09:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
riku743

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I'm glad that someone (both Lyaka and Goats) defines gut the same way I do -- judging from most of the responses, it seems like people generally don't. However, I agree with others' confusion over Lyaka calling Goats' vote a gut one. He did describe it as feeling off, but he went into specifics as well.

Furare wrote: 
Because every time we vote for someone in a game like this, we could be pushing a roleholder closer to the gallows.

The thing about this game is there's items. I haven't played games with more than one or two items, but Luvessy says that "sometimes they pass every night no matter what and sometimes only after they've been used and sometimes when someone wants to pass them along cause they think someone else ought to hold 'em". If everyone is alive Night 1, everyone who has one has a chance to pass on their item. There's not a huge disadvantage to not lynching Day 1. However, if we do lynch Day 1, we may lynch someone before they have any chance to pass on an item. They can assess who seems to be the likely lynch candidates the next day (be it themselves or someone , and decide how to move about their item that way, if they have choice in the matter.
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