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marinated

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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@ Firebolt: Why did you respond to a question addressed to Dwizzles before he had a chance to answer it himself?

@ Mrbriney: What size games are you used to playing?

Setsusa wrote: 
Also, I'm not gonna bother voting toDay, past results have led me to want to try this out. First Day cases are super weak and apparently the majority of us get upset over "pressure" votes.

Pressure votes can be useful as it's not only the votee who's affected by them. Don't let the last game put you off them. The vote is like a stone thrown into a pond. There can be several layers of ripples. That's one reason I don't like abstains as some people use them to avoid reacting to what's going on around them.

Nalanthi wrote: 
Nalanthi demands evidence. I mistrust gut. I can create several probable reasons, gut just seems to be a way of saying "I don't want to take the time to figure out what my reasons are" or even "I don't want to bother explaining them to you."

I don't see anything wrong with voting on a gut feeling occasionally. The only problem with it is that one vote doesn't make a lynch so an explanation is needed to get others to join you. But some players can be almost impossible to make a case against in the time available, especially later on in the game and particularly when it's a very subtle thing from a high volume poster. (A good example of this was Taelac in ROMS VIII.)

JMR wrote: 
I don't think Phoenix is suspicious due to asking for clarification. I can see it partially as a JMT. Whether or not it's a real JMT or a rogue JMT. I just don't see a rogue jumping out and saying what she said that could have been easily addressed by the rogue doc, if she is in fact a rogue. It's just not sticking out at me where I would mainly vote her for that reason.

What do you mean by "a real JMT"? Your fourth sentence describes exactly what a JMT is - a rogue doing something that a rogue doesn't need to to do, and thereby implying that they are not a rogue.

Mousebait wrote: 
Reb Tevye wrote: 
TRADITION

I love that musical! I really want to read the original books sometime.

Mrbriney wrote: 
Incidentally, whilst I'm on a semi-rant, I'll bring up something I feel relatively strong about. Pressure votes, pressure posting, "post your thoughts RIGHT NOW or I'll think you're a rogue", anything in that vein. Don't do it. I would rather see someone post occasionally and it be full of insightful content, bringing things to light and provoking thoughts more than "lolwtfisdis?" rather than someone post half thought-through balderdash to appease the masses. Give people time and they will provide, there is no reason to place undue pressure on someone purely because you're not happy with how they're playing the game. I, personally, lose a lot of respect for people who play the pressure line. Though I'm sure that's not really an incentive for any of you to stop doing so.

I agree there's no point in pressuring someone who's already doing as well as they can, and we have quite a few low posters in that category. It's those who do not appear to be trying that we need to chase, and a vote/wagon is a good way of doing it. I don't think we are as aggressive about it as you are describing here though.

Up to this post.

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Sleepyjo - on all oceans
[May 25, 2012 8:41:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mrbriney

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Taelac wrote: 
You mistake my tone--my focus is on your arguments, or the relative lack of them in favor of logical fallacies.

Please explain where there is a logical fallacy. I think you're just misunderstanding my words rather than me being inconsistent or logically flawed. Other people have grasped what I say readily, they see no inconsistency in what I say. I think you are misunderstanding me and making links between paragraphs that shouldn't be linked.

There is nothing that I am able to do to deter that, because it is just my writing style. But again, it is interesting that you ignore Master is completely off with his vote on me and only answer a part of his post.

Taelac wrote: 
The way you are playing is fast-tracking your name to my FoS list. There is no pressing need to have voted within twelve hours of game-on, and your responses read to me like so much smokescreen instead of anything that justifies either the vote in the first place or that it remains where you placed it. It begins to ring like a bold rogue when I drop it on the counter. I am not advising you to change the way you are playing--I'm merely informing you that the way you are playing is likely to intersect with the currently meandering direction of my vote.

No, you are discouraging me from playing the game in a way you don't want it to be played. You are quite literally saying "Keep playing like this and I'll vote you". You have made it clear to me that you don't really pay much attention to what I post. Possibly because I have a long-winded way of explaining things, possibly because I'm answering so many questions, possibly because you don't want to understand me. Of course, if I weren't playing this way, you could just say "it sounds like a quiet/normal/sneaky/conniving rogue when I drop it on the counter". To me, it seems like your mind is already made up, proven by the fact you've straight out ignored Master's slip to focus on me instead.

Furthermore (I explain again) the justification behind my vote is gut. What more do you want? I've already explained that three or more times. A lot of my posts have actually been composed of things totally unrelated to my vote because Jokerina and Kotsetsu were poking me about my views on pressure voting. If that's what you mean by smokescreen, then sorry your reading comprehension isn't what I would expect.

Preview edit:

Marinated wrote: 
I agree there's no point in pressuring someone who's already doing as well as they can, and we have quite a few low posters in that category. It's those who do not appear to be trying that we need to chase, and a vote/wagon is a good way of doing it. I don't think we are as aggressive about it as you are describing here though.


Yes, this is what I mean. For example whilst I read through High Security earlier in the week, I felt that Morbuzaan could have posted more, as I noted in earlier games he can be both vocal and concise with his reasoning. In contrast I felt the votes placed upon Crazy at the start were unwarrented and unfair, as it was clear she was a new player and still getting to grips with the game.

Perhaps it is clearer what I mean to say when I use an example. I hope that is the case.

Marinated wrote: 
@ Mrbriney: What size games are you used to playing?


Heh, not as large as this.
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It's MR BRINNNEEEYYY
[May 25, 2012 8:52:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
clasalle

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Thejokerina wrote: 
My comment on MrBriney was quite tongue-in-cheek, if it weren't, I would not have made a comment about sour cream dip. Both posts made me raise an eyebrow a little, however, they're both something that I would have to wait for the posters to expand on if they do. For me, it is very early to start pointing people as rogues.

Someone who has something to hide is more likely to flail than someone who doesn't.


False. Just saying, as someone who loves to flail in the wind, I actually tend to find flailing as a bit of a null tell. No one wants to die. Rarely will people walk joyously to the lynching.


I realize I chopped up that post a bit but I only found 2 parts of it I wanted to respond to. Now as to the bolded part I am just wondering when you feel it will be appropriate....Day2, half way through Day3? I'm just wondering what you are thinking after watching the town just sit around and tap their feet most of the last game. I prefer this raucous start we are off to.

I find it more likely we got some quiet rogues on this fine Day 1 so I am going through this list of players and these are the people that have not left an impression at all to me.

Notjaret
Phaedra6
Yasmi

One more thing I just remembered I wanted to address. I am not really with it enough to delve into the logical fallacies or lack there of in Mrbriney's vote. What does bother me though is that it is Firebolts first game (correct me if I'm wrong.) and I worry that by voting her in Day 1 we just successfully scared her off. I would really like giving new players atleast the grace of one full Day before we try to kill them. Even if your gut is screaming rogue sometimes your gut can be wrong and they can just be green (Morning Yasmi.)

I do actually agree with what MrBriney said though about whole posts being dismissed because of RL issues. I am not against taking them into consideration. However saying, I'm sick so just ignore anything I say isn't fair. Saying I'm sick so keep that in mind if I am unclear is fair in my book.
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Lassie on Viridian
[May 25, 2012 9:21:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
taelac

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Mrbriney wrote: 
Taelac wrote: 
You mistake my tone--my focus is on your arguments, or the relative lack of them in favor of logical fallacies.

Please explain where there is a logical fallacy.

You've made numerous appeals to emotion (such as your comment that you lose respect for people who play the pressure line), and a handful of appeals to authority (such as your reliance on the weight of other people appearing to have accepted your arguments). These are logical fallacies, because they seek to persuade your audience based on how you are manipulating their feelings, rather than by the strength of your arguments. So far, all they've done is underscore for me the lack of an actual argument.

 
But again, it is interesting that you ignore Master is completely off with his vote on me and only answer a part of his post.

I had originally corrected Master's error in my post, but on preview discovered you had answered it already, so deleted it. I am waiting to see if he retains his vote after reading your correction.

 
Furthermore (I explain again) the justification behind my vote is gut. What more do you want?

Something that is an actual justification. Her few posts so far haven't been much different than any number of new players regardless of status, so I'd like you to point out exactly what it was in which of her posts that you thought sounded like you as a rogue/wolf/scum in a different game. Which comment matches up, and what did you say that sounded like it, and what was your motivation for saying it at the time?

"Gut" is sometimes a reasonable explanation, but never by itself, and I do not find it reasonable in this instance. It ranks with "He's a beast" for all it tells us.

 
then sorry your reading comprehension isn't what I would expect.

Appeal to ridicule comes under the appeal to emotion category of logical fallacy.
----------------------------------------
~Taelac
ROMS XVII:Vanilla Filler
Dead Thread
[May 25, 2012 9:23:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Bunnylaroo

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Going to try to break this down into something coherent:

Meta first I guess:
Pressure Votes
I think I'm unclear as to what we're calling "pressure votes". My understanding of a pressure vote is "I'm voting player B because I want player B to post more". In this format, I don't like pressure votes. Surely there are ways of eliciting content from someone other than voting for them. Ask them a question, call them out for not posting, but don't just randomly vote them. I feel like a vote solely to get a response is rarely going to get any response other than "OMG WHY YOU VOTE FOR ME ROAG?!?". It's not going to make the person suddenly commit to serious rogue hunting - chances are they are going to be on the defensive, which their future posts will reflect.

However, there's a difference between a pressure vote and pressuring someone to explain their stance/declare their suspicions. I'm in favor of the latter, not the former.

___________________________________________________________________
Gut votes
I'm getting a little chuckle from the whole "Your justification for your gut vote is poor". Because the thing about gut votes is that they don't really have a justification, do they? Again, I could be misunderstanding the concept, but to me a gut vote is, "I can't shake this feeling, but I really don't have evidence to back it up". A Day 1 gut vote isn't really a surprise because there isn't much to go on as of yet.

That said, MrBriney, you did try to give some justification for your gut, but I would like to know what it is about firebolts' behavior that reminds you of rouge-you. She's had 5 posts, and at the time you voted she had 4. Which of those 4 posts were alarming to you? Yes, I am aware that you said,

MrBriney wrote: 
There is no point in me delving deeply into this however. I'm not about to do a post-by-post to try and pin shame on firebolt. The game is still young, she has not said much.


Note that I am not asking you to "delve deeply" because frankly, we're still in the kiddie pool stage of the game. But I'm curious as to what it was that raised your red flag. If you're going to justify your gut (which, in itself, doesn't really make sense) with, "she reminds me of me as a rogue," you might as well expound on what is giving you that feeling.

Also, please don't accuse someone of being offensive toward you and then make a dig at their reading comprehension. Don't make me dig up the bunny with cookies picture again.
________________________________________________________________________
Smileo votes

Furare and Kotetsu: Are you voting for Smiley because you don't like the fact that he's abstained or because you're under the impression that he's placed his vote and is done for the day? Or is it something else?

I definitely think the practice, if it exists, of saying, "I'm abstaining cuz it's Day 1, see you guys tomorrow!" is terrible and should be discouraged. However, I think it's too early in the Day to say that this is Smiley's intention, especially since he's historically in favor of the abstain. I read his comment about Phoenix as something like, "It's noted, but not enough for a vote". I didn't see any indication that he wasn't looking or wasn't coming back; time will tell whether he does or not. That's why this statement disturbed me:

Kotetsu wrote: 
On that note, I'll throw some more pressure on smileo for his refusal to engage in rogue hunting day one. Whether or not he's a rogue isn't the point - it's that if he isn't a rogue, he needs to change his behaviour to help find one. If he is a rogue, we can't let him slink away.


I find the bolded statement to be ironic in light of your complaint about Smiley. You're voting Smiley because he's "refusing" to hunt rogues, but it doesn't matter whether he's a rogue or not to you...so are you rogue hunting? Or policy voting?
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Bunnylaroo of Sage Emerald

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[May 25, 2012 9:32:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
RogueQuitex

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Also, as a friendly reminder:

Votes that do not follow the hashtag and bold format will not count. Votes in bold and red with no hashtag are not valid. Any vote that doesn't appear when you Ctrl+F "#Vote" is not valid. On the other hand, so proud of y'all!!! We have no player risking inactivity now. Whooo!!!
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Co-Moderating ROMS DCXV with Rogue_JM
(ROMS XV: DC)

I'm full of the evilz.
BANZORZ!
[May 25, 2012 9:43:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
clasalle

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Also, as a friendly reminder:

Votes that do not follow the hashtag and bold format will not count. Votes in bold and red with no hashtag are not valid. Any vote that doesn't appear when you Ctrl+F "#Vote" is not valid. On the other hand, so proud of y'all!!! We have no player risking inactivity now. Whooo!!!



I'm trying to keep track and I thought I only saw 1 that didn't fit those parameters and they acknowledged it was a joke. Was there another not legit vote out there?
----------------------------------------
Lassie on Viridian
[May 25, 2012 9:46:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
RogueQuitex

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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Also, as a friendly reminder:

Votes that do not follow the hashtag and bold format will not count. Votes in bold and red with no hashtag are not valid. Any vote that doesn't appear when you Ctrl+F "#Vote" is not valid. On the other hand, so proud of y'all!!! We have no player risking inactivity now. Whooo!!!



I'm trying to keep track and I thought I only saw 1 that didn't fit those parameters and they acknowledged it was a joke. Was there another not legit vote out there?


Nope, I am just saying! Reminding everyone to not forget to read the constant reminders for forgetful pirates!
----------------------------------------
Co-Moderating ROMS DCXV with Rogue_JM
(ROMS XV: DC)

I'm full of the evilz.
BANZORZ!
[May 25, 2012 9:48:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
master2482

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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MrBriney wrote: 
My vote is on firebolt. It's not a pressure vote. So your reasons for voting for me are..?
Firebolt, Phoe, close enough.
Sorry I mixed you guys up D:

MrBriney wrote: 
In this case, firebolt reminds me of me when I was once a rogue (as it is called in this version).

This reads to me as a pressure vote. In fact, it reads to me as
MrBriney wrote: 
No, you are discouraging me from playing the game in a way you don't want it to be played. You are quite literally saying "Keep playing like this and I'll vote you".


Also, what are you referring to here?
MrBriney wrote: 
To me, it seems like your mind is already made up, proven by the fact you've straight out ignored Master's slip to focus on me instead.

I see no banana peels.
----------------------------------------
 
The people about there, had they been awake instead of asleep, at other times would have seen even stranger things. Some day, but not at this time, I shall make an announcement of something that I never once dreamed of.

[May 25, 2012 9:58:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mrbriney

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Taelac, this is a waste of both of our time. Your mind is set, so this is my last post concerning the matter.

Taelac wrote: 
You've made numerous appeals to emotion (such as your comment that you lose respect for people who play the pressure line)


Stating my opinion on something is a logical fallacy? Well gosh guys sorry about that, I'll be sure to never express my beliefs again.

Taelac wrote: 
and a handful of appeals to authority (such as your reliance on the weight of other people appearing to have accepted your arguments).


My reliance? That's quite loaded language Taelac. To my knowledge I've only pointed to other people's opinion on the matter once, which was neither an appeal to authority or emotion. It was using evidence within the thread to further my point.

To sum up, I'm using evidence to back me up instead of twisting people's words and ideas to suit my argument.

Taelac wrote: 
These are logical fallacies, because they seek to persuade your audience based on how you are manipulating their feelings, rather than by the strength of your arguments. So far, all they've done is underscore for me the lack of an actual argument.


You'll find that I have been using cases from other games as evidence, as well as pointing to other things said in the thread. "Manipulating feelings" doesn't come into it.

Pray tell, what am I meant to be arguing about? I've explained the reasoning behind my gut vote, I've explained the reasoning behind my opinions on things such as pressure voting. What else do you want of me? You're evidently unwilling to read what I have said previously closer, so for me this whole affair is fast becoming redundant. No matter what I say you will persist, for whatever reason you're determined to come up with absurd theories. Manipulating people's feelings indeed.


Taelac wrote: 
I had originally corrected Master's error in my post, but on preview discovered you had answered it already, so deleted it. I am waiting to see if he retains his vote after reading your correction.


Convenient.

Bunnylaroo wrote: 
That said, MrBriney, you did try to give some justification for your gut, but I would like to know what it is about firebolts' behavior that reminds you of rouge-you. She's had 5 posts, and at the time you voted she had 4. Which of those 4 posts were alarming to you? Yes, I am aware that you said,


Here

Get the new guy on side, right?

I believe that also answers Taelac's last enquiry.

Taelac wrote: 
Appeal to ridicule comes under the appeal to emotion category of logical fallacy.

Yes, sorry about that. You must understand that it is immensely frustrating when someone makes links that don't exist, or accuses me of being illogical whilst providing evidence that doesn't point to that at all. If you could quote what I said, bold it perhaps, and say "right here doesn't make sense to me, could you explain this further?" instead of straight up accusing me of being illogical and attacking my posting style. I'd certainly be more receptive.

Master wrote: 
This reads to me as a pressure vote. In fact, it reads to me as


A) How is that a pressure vote? If I was going to pressure vote someone I'd say "Yeah that was a pressure vote guys no worries." rather than say it's my gut and take the flak for it.
B) Surely I want more people to be playing like me? If people played like me I'd be able to tell who is a rogue and who isn't quite easily. So that's kind of redundant.

So is it a pressure vote or me trying to stop someone playing the game in a particular way? Either of them would obviously make me a hypocrite, so it's a win whichever one you choose right? I'm not sure you can have both at the same time.

Master wrote: 
Also, what are you referring to here?


You mixed up Phoe and firebolt. The way I see it you thought I was holding a pressure vote on Phoe, rather than a gut vote on firebolt, which said to me that your vote was based off something totally unrelated to me, and which no longer had a bearing based on what I said. Your vote was centered around me being a hypocrite, which was then proven to be false. You're now still basing it around me being a hypocrite, but the idea behind my hypocrisy has changed. I don't really know what I can say to that to be honest, it's mind-boggling. Is this another case of "you're a rogue and whatever you say proves my point!"?
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It's MR BRINNNEEEYYY
[May 25, 2012 10:43:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
master2482

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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I mixed the names up. Don't quite see how that makes my argument weaker, or that I'm now saying you're a hypocrite about something else. It's the same thing, I just used the wrong name. Shoot me.
----------------------------------------
 
The people about there, had they been awake instead of asleep, at other times would have seen even stranger things. Some day, but not at this time, I shall make an announcement of something that I never once dreamed of.

[May 25, 2012 11:06:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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Whoa, I got caught all morning in the (Mr) Briney deeps.

First, Master, you seem to be grossly misconstruing MrB. To wit:

Master wrote: 
The thing is, the edit thing has caught rogues before. It probably won't anymore, but it has. We all have lives outside the game, and if something goes wrong, we all wish them the best. If they can't post, I'd prefer them telling us ahead of time, instead of just giving us radio silence, as you appear to be advocating.

Um. Pretty sure he said something like, "If you're constantly explaining "misunderstandings" with "I'm tired" it's a problem. Consider posting untired." That's a far cry from, "Never post if you're having RL excuses."
 
I really, really don't like the way you're handling some things, notably the above and how you said you didn't like pressure votes while having a pressure vote on Phoe.

Already addressed as false, both the individual and the characterization as a pressure vote. Actual, that wasn't addressed. "She reminds me of me as a new rogue" isn't a pressure vote. That's a vote because someone is playing like a rogue.

Basically, I have no idea what you're on about.

On MrB himself, while I don't agree with everything (I disagree some on the pressure stuff, but it's meta) I don't really have a problem with anything, at least from an FoS perspective. I'd like to see some explanation of something specific that made him think new rogue, whether it's style or content or something, and while I understand that's hard to do for gut, I still figure there's something you read and think, "Huh, I would have said this when I was a new rogue." That's the moment I'm curious about.

Tae does seem pretty focused, and I'm not really sure I agree with the reasons. I do think it's odd that Masters errors were overlooked some. Not that you have to comment on every post, but when it's supporting your hypothesis, I think it'd at least be relevant.

Preview edit:
Master wrote: 
I mixed the names up. Don't quite see how that makes my argument weaker, or that I'm now saying you're a hypocrite about something else. It's the same thing, I just used the wrong name. Shoot me.

Mixed up names and reasons.

I had some more but I gotta get to lunch. TTFN, thread.
----------------------------------------
Leif
The Forums
Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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[May 25, 2012 11:14:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
taelac

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Mrbriney wrote: 
Stating my opinion on something is a logical fallacy? Well gosh guys sorry about that, I'll be sure to never express my beliefs again.

I think perhaps you are not familiar with the term "logical fallacy ." For convenience, see also "appeal to emotion ." The bolded bit is another example.

Mrbriney wrote: 
To my knowledge I've only pointed to other people's opinion on the matter once, which was neither an appeal to authority...

That's what an appeal to authority is.

Mrbriney wrote: 
Pray tell, what am I meant to be arguing about? I've explained the reasoning behind my gut vote, I've explained the reasoning behind my opinions on things such as pressure voting. What else do you want of me?

I was fairly specific about that in my last post:
Taelac wrote: 
...so I'd like you to point out exactly what it was in which of her posts that you thought sounded like you as a rogue/wolf/scum in a different game. Which comment matches up, and what did you say that sounded like it, and what was your motivation for saying it at the time?

I see you've offered something of this in your response to Bunny:
Mrbriney wrote: 
Bunnylaroo wrote: 
That said, MrBriney, you did try to give some justification for your gut, but I would like to know what it is about firebolts' behavior that reminds you of rouge-you. [Snip.]


Here

Get the new guy on side, right?

I believe that also answers Taelac's last enquiry.


I take this to mean that you think Firebolt was trying to curry favor with Dwizzles by offering an explanation for his(?) comment, because you have used that tactic as a rogue/wolf/scum elsewhen. That is an actual justification. I don't agree with it, but I can see it. I think Marinated is still waiting for an answer from Firebolt as to why she did comment there, so I will hold off speculating as to what I feel are more likely scenarios in the hopes that Firebolt returns soon to respond.

@Master, all votes apply pressure. Not all votes are specifically pressure votes. Mrbriney, disagree with him as I might, did not ask Firebolt to do anything in response to his vote, and in fact has only just given her anything she might respond to. A pressure vote by definition has some kind of specific goal in mind as to what actions the player being voted should take.
----------------------------------------
~Taelac
ROMS XVII:Vanilla Filler
Dead Thread
[May 25, 2012 11:15:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Yasmi6

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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wow its day one and I have never seen soooo much too read.
And its amazing its not meta :)

I am generally for a abstain vote in day one, since there is normally (i do emphasize normally) not enough to build a case on, however I am amazed with so much writting today.

Mrbriney for someone who I never saw playing you heck write a lot of novels and defend yourself very much.
I am gonna re-read on that gut vote....

Personally i dont think phoenixstar's mod clarification indicate to wherther she is a rogue or innocent, I think she wanted for everyone to know her queries... Also it would be very early for a rogue to be making a mistake.

Mrbriney were you trying to get the discussion going when u gut voted firebolt?

I think Mrbriney caught a lot of attention on this first day and he's seems to be enjoying it :)
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[May 25, 2012 11:16:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
master2482

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Taelac wrote: 
@Master, all votes apply pressure. Not all votes are specifically pressure votes. Mrbriney, disagree with him as I might, did not ask Firebolt to do anything in response to his vote, and in fact has only just given her anything she might respond to. A pressure vote by definition has some kind of specific goal in mind as to what actions the player being voted should take.

Apparently I took it differently than everyone else did. I'll try to break it down, but no promises.
He votes Firebolt. Claims Gut
Says she reminds him of him as a rogue.

This reads to me as him saying something along the lines of, "I did that as a rogue, so you should stop doing it!" It may work even better on her because of the fact that she's new. Ht has's new as well, but has previous mafia experience, so he likely knows these kinds of moves.
Tell me if that doesn't make sense.
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The people about there, had they been awake instead of asleep, at other times would have seen even stranger things. Some day, but not at this time, I shall make an announcement of something that I never once dreamed of.

[May 25, 2012 11:26:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
taelac

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Talisker wrote: 
Tae does seem pretty focused, and I'm not really sure I agree with the reasons.

You say that every game. It keeps getting earlier, too. Next game, I'll not be surprised to see you say it as your check-in post. ;)

Talisker wrote: 
I do think it's odd that Masters errors were overlooked some. Not that you have to comment on every post, but when it's supporting your hypothesis, I think it'd at least be relevant.

I didn't take it as supporting my hypothesis, since it was incorrect and didn't seem to be related to the problem I was having with Mrbriney's vote. I can't prove that I started to address it and only changed my mind when I saw it had already been corrected by Mrbriney himself. *shrug*

Master wrote: 
Apparently I took it differently than everyone else did. I'll try to break it down, but no promises.
He votes Firebolt. Claims Gut
Says she reminds him of him as a rogue.

This reads to me as him saying something along the lines of, "I did that as a rogue, so you should stop doing it!"

Except that the "so you should stop doing it" that you're reading into it was actually "so I think you're a rogue." He's not asking her to stop doing it...as far as he was concerned, the damage was already done. If it had been meant as a pressure vote, there would have been some indication in the post of what he wanted her to do or not do.
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[May 25, 2012 11:34:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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Taelac wrote: 
Talisker wrote: 
Tae does seem pretty focused, and I'm not really sure I agree with the reasons.

You say that every game. It keeps getting earlier, too. Next game, I'll not be surprised to see you say it as your check-in post. ;)

You are so often focused it might be worth it. Sometimes I agree with you though.

 
Talisker wrote: 
I do think it's odd that Masters errors were overlooked some. Not that you have to comment on every post, but when it's supporting your hypothesis, I think it'd at least be relevant.

I didn't take it as supporting my hypothesis, since it was incorrect and didn't seem to be related to the problem I was having with Mrbriney's vote. I can't prove that I started to address it and only changed my mind when I saw it had already been corrected by Mrbriney himself. *shrug*

Fair enough.

 
Master wrote: 
Apparently I took it differently than everyone else did. I'll try to break it down, but no promises.
He votes Firebolt. Claims Gut
Says she reminds him of him as a rogue.

This reads to me as him saying something along the lines of, "I did that as a rogue, so you should stop doing it!"

Except that the "so you should stop doing it" that you're reading into it was actually "so I think you're a rogue." He's not asking her to stop doing it...as far as he was concerned, the damage was already done. If it had been meant as a pressure vote, there would have been some indication in the post of what he wanted her to do or not do.

Yeah, the pressure applied to "Looks roguish" by voting is a pressure to "die".
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I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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[May 25, 2012 12:25:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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Morning (at least I'll pretend it still is when I post this).

I'm going camping tonight for the next couple of days (coming back Sunday night at this point I believe). I'll still have internet on my phone, so hopefully I'll still be able to keep up with the thread and have some input too. Just letting you know so there's no "OMGZ LURKING".

Trying to go through the thread with my thoughts from where I left off.
Mrbriney wrote: 
I find 'gut' votes to be an inadequate way of saying "My past experience playing points towards <conclusion>". In this case, firebolt reminds me of me when I was once a rogue (as it is called in this version).

Here. Gut votes don't really sit too well with me. I feel like I could say right now "Mrbriney's gut vote reminds me of Ghadhean's gut vote on Joly when he was a rogue, so therefore I am going to vote Mrbriney". But I wouldn't be okay doing it. I can see an innocent voting as Mrbriney did as much as a rogue at this point, and I'd rather wait until there are other things that make me suspicious than just what was seemingly a random vote (until things were cleared up a bit a little further on). For now, I'm just going to watchlist.

Lyaka wrote: 
Roles are handed out via random number generator. I thought the mods said that straight out, but a re-skim of the OP doesn't actually say that. However, I see randomact admits to having told Drizzles this, so I'm putting this firmly in the JMT camp.
Here. I'll let Dwizzles answer for himself, but I will just note that 75% of the time he doesn't listen to me anyway. I could be telling him that I have perfected doing backflips on a unicycle and he'd respond by telling me about the office cat at work.

Master's vote on Mrbriney was odd . Wrong person and wrong reason, as has been pointed out. He still hasn't admitted to it being the wrong reason, and when your vote is solely for one reason it doesn't really work when the reasoning isn't right (reason doesn't look spelt right anymore). I'll be interested on Master's actions in the near future to see what comes of this.

It's interesting to see a few votes in different directions on Day 1. Riku's vote for Kotetsu seems quite fast (I think a lot of votes on any Day 1 end up being kinda fast, really), but I'm also interested to see Kotetsu's response to said vote. Also looking forward to Smileo's next post - by the looks of things he has a long day today, but I am hoping he comes back some time toDay to address things. As I said earlier, I'm not a fan of definitely abstaining every Day 1. If Smileo doesn't post again toDay I will be considering him on my watchlist. A vote for abstain is one vote towards the 50% needed for a lynch, and his vote early on in the Day would contribute to that if things heat up in the next 40 hours or so.
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[May 25, 2012 12:34:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
NotJaret

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By voting so early in the game I think that MrB's real motive was just to stir the pot a bit to reveal any potential rogues by analyzing the posts. Really someone has to make some move to actually get people posting non-fluffy posts.
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[May 25, 2012 12:37:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
master2482

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I'm so confused now. People keep on saying that I used a "wrong reason" and I don't see it. I used the wrong person, but I'm really not seeing the "wrong reason" thing. I get that I took the vote differently than others did, but I'm oddly confident about this.
Not saying "OMG, I'm confident, you guys should vote here!", but rather, I like where my vote is.
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The people about there, had they been awake instead of asleep, at other times would have seen even stranger things. Some day, but not at this time, I shall make an announcement of something that I never once dreamed of.

[May 25, 2012 12:44:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
firebolt153

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marinated wrote: 
@ Firebolt: Why did you respond to a question addressed to Dwizzles before he had a chance to answer it himself?


Just sort of a knee-jerk reaction I suppose. As I also discovered while reading along with High Security, and also using the new player guide as I read along, mixing up lynch and ban would be bad news bears, so I figured backing up a fellow newbie would be helpful. Probably not a good idea in retrospect, but that was my reasoning.

And don't worry bunny, I am not so easily scared away :p
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[May 25, 2012 12:47:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
clasalle

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Not to be nitpicky but I don't think bunny mentioned you being scared off. I only noticed this because well I mentioned it. I'm glad that you weren't scared off.

(So do I get bonus points now for being basically forgotten about a la Seastarx).
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[May 25, 2012 12:55:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
randomact

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Master wrote: 
I'm so confused now. People keep on saying that I used a "wrong reason" and I don't see it. I used the wrong person, but I'm really not seeing the "wrong reason" thing. I get that I took the vote differently than others did, but I'm oddly confident about this.
Not saying "OMG, I'm confident, you guys should vote here!", but rather, I like where my vote is.

People are saying that they don't think that Mrbriney's vote was a pressure vote. I see that you've said that you took Mrbriney's vote as a "I did that as a rogue, so you should stop doing it!".... but does that mean every situation that is "you remind me of X" is a "stop doing it" situation that means it's pressure in some way?

Uh, that reads horribly but whatever.
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[May 25, 2012 1:06:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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Randomact wrote: 
Master wrote: 
I'm so confused now. People keep on saying that I used a "wrong reason" and I don't see it. I used the wrong person, but I'm really not seeing the "wrong reason" thing. I get that I took the vote differently than others did, but I'm oddly confident about this.
Not saying "OMG, I'm confident, you guys should vote here!", but rather, I like where my vote is.

People are saying that they don't think that Mrbriney's vote was a pressure vote. I see that you've said that you took Mrbriney's vote as a "I did that as a rogue, so you should stop doing it!".... but does that mean every situation that is "you remind me of X" is a "stop doing it" situation that means it's pressure in some way?

Uh, that reads horribly but whatever.


Reads horribly, but it's clear. Simply put, it wasn't a pressure vote, it was said to be a pressure vote, and there's no intent to pressure anyone to do anything. Tae put it really well up there.
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Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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WARNING! WARNING Post of DOOM ahead. I know it's a post of DOOM I had to go through and find the broken tags in it.

Luvessy wrote: 
Hi.

Phoenyx wrote: 
Reading over the rules, I'm coming down on the "Not going to Abstain Vote this game" side because of the way vote totals work this game. 50% of players voted and the highest player voted dies unless Abstain is the outright highest - since if Abstain ties with a player, the player dies. I may abstain from voting, but I won't be voting abstain this game around.


I'm confused by this. Because an abstain vote by more people than those interested in lynching will block the vote, you will not be abstaining? Or, because tying abstain with the lead lynchee leads to lynching, you will not be abstaining?
While I generally question the value of an abstain vote versus a non-vote, I'm not following this logic.

I decided to re-read the thread and saw this and couldn't remember if I'd actually answered the questions asked.

I won't be abstaining because I personally see it as far too easy for someone or a group of someones to bump off someone from the other group of someones speedily if there are not many but just enough Abstain votes. That and I think that voting abstain is a waste of a vote and gives no information other than the person who did it is wishy washy. Since there MUST be 50% of the players voting in order for a lynch to even happen, abstaining from voting if you don't see anyone as high enough on your suspicion list would be the way to NOT lynch someone - instead of voting Abstain, adding to the 50% of votes required but not coming down on any side of the fence. IF voting Abstain just put it out there that you couldn't pick someone to vote for but did NOT count towards vote totals then I wouldn't mind it. But it counts towards 50% and there only needs to be a 1 vote clearance.

It worries me. I realise that my logic doesn't translate well to other people sometimes - it happens in RL as well with people who have literally known me all my life, so please, if you (Generic anyone playing "you" here not just Luv) don't understand how I reached a conclusion - PLEASE ASK ME ABOUT IT. I will endeavour to clarify until you understand where I am coming from, even if you don't agree with me.

DementedDuck wrote: 
Given we know this is a game with items, I don't think asking about night actions is a tell in either direction. And as we all have a chance to pick up an item, Phoe's reasoning for posting makes sense.
Of this is bugging me. The bold bit. I've re-read the rules a few times and I'm still not seeing where this is stated anywhere. Someone want to point me at that statement?

Talisker wrote: 
I don't remember a specific case of C&Ping the player list, but it's just a variation on her standard
Because I don't usually do that in the first 24 hours, I usually wait until Day 3-ish and add something to it. Wanted to get it out of the way that until given reason to not believe it I think everyone that I don't have confirmed status of is a dirty filthy rogue *grins* and since on Day 1 in the first 24 hours the only person who I know the status of is... well... me... copy pasting was the fastest way to get that across. And before anyone accuses me of another JMT (Which I can't see how but then I didn't see how asking about night actions when there are Rogues AND Roles AND Items and they ALL have night actions was a JMT) How do we know that the devious minds of Quitex and JustinMickey don't have more than one set of people out there who are anti-town even if they're not rogues?

For those who remember it, yes, TMBTC ruined me for that blissful place where there are Rogues and there are Townies and that is all when he Turned me into a damn VAMPIRE and told me to kill EVERYONE and make them my minions in order to win.

Mads wrote: 
The person who said they're likely to mix up lynches and bans though, why do you feel that?


I read this and I've read further in the thread and I'm NOT answering for Dwizzles it's something that occurred to me as a possibility. And it's a strange twisted leap of logic possibility so if it doesn't make sense to someone please ask for clarification and I'll try to be clearer.

I'm not sure what "traditional" Mafia/Paranoia games use but I'm fairly sure we're the only ones who use a "banstick" theme for our "mafia" people to kill with. I can see how someone new would confuse the two term since if you're not used to it and let's face it Puzzle Pirates is the only game I've seen where when they ban you from the game they're banning you the player not that particular account but you're welcome to come back on another one. (I think this is the only game I've ever seen that you can get banned for coming back after you were banned - and not doing anything but having someone find out that you were previously banned.)

I've re-read that and I think I've missed half a sentence/thought there but can't figure out where. So yes, am expecting a request from someone for clarification when someone else reads it and goes "Huh? where's the rest of that?" It makes sense to me but it still feels that something is missing slightly if that makes sense.

Bunnylaroo wrote: 
It's Day 1 and we're already dropping not-too-subtle hints about having night actions?
Sorry if that's what it came across as, wasn't my intention. Refer up the page to the quote from DD - asking for where that thought came from because it's in my head - and was at the time of posting the original as well. I just can't find where on earth the thought came from that items are.... transferrable I think is the word I'm looking for since it's not in the rules post at the start of the thread.

JMRudnick wrote: 
IWhether or not it's a real JMT or a rogue JMT
Huh? A Jedi Mind Trick (That would be that JMT thing) is only really "real" when used by a rogue. The quote it's based on is of course the classic "These are not the droids(rogues) you are looking for" So how can there be a difference between a "real" JMT and a "rogue" JMT?

MrBriney wrote: 
It also aggravates me that people use real life circumstances to explain away their ramblings/incoherence/"I'marogueoopsdidntmeanthatwasjustfeelingpoorly". If you don't think you're going to get your point across because of real life situations, save your post for later


Congratulations! You are my "Quitex" this game apparently. You've only just started talking and you're already giving me the irrits. I will endeavour to NOT vote for you for irritating me however.

Now my second post in the thread may have implied that you should attribute anything that didn't make sense about asking questions of the mods to tiredness - but if you actually go back and read the original post and look at WHERE the lack of sleep was put - you may just find that it wasn't ever intended to excuse anything but a possible "This is snarky and rude" response to the statement immediately prior to it.

And if you really want me to throw "RL excuses" at you fine. I'm a single mother, it's winter, I'm an insommniac, I've recently started a new job where I have to actually talk to men face to face without a door between us, I have panic attacks (because of the prior sentence) and damnit if I waited until I was NOT tired, NOT going to ramble and NOT occasionally incoherant to other people I WOULDN'T EVER GET TO PLAY.

*endrant*

Sorry if that offended anyone, but that particular part of the post from MrBriny just rubbed me the wrong way completely after the month I've had. Especially since I DIDN'T use RL to "explain away" anything.

Combination of "You irritate the scupper out of me and I don't know why" and "Condecending twits who misread what was actually posted give me the barnacles" on top of the week I've had.

And no, you can't always "wait 12 hours" and to post something. Doing that can - and HAS - gotten you lynched in this game before.

Kotetsu wrote: 
On that note, I'll throw some more pressure on smileo for his refusal to engage in rogue hunting day one


Huh? Where on earth did you get the conclusion that he was refusing to engage in hunting rogues? I got the impression that he was refusing to decide from ONE POST that someone was a rogue and was getting a vote out because Smileo is a fan of the whole Vote:Abstain thing and iirc generally votes that way round 1.

Very rare that a rogue does something that will get a consensus Day one anyway. I think it's happened...... Once. And this is game 25 according to the roman numerals.

Lyaka wrote: 
Looking at the Phoenix post, my eyebrows went up, but them I remembered that Phoenix rarely cares about how others will take what she says. It doesn't means she's not a rogue, but I can very much see Phoe going 'oh, I have a question' and then asking that question, without necessarily considering the meta aspects of 'wait, will this make people think XYZ?'


Thank you. Lyaka - Translating Phoenix's thought processes since.... about 3 months after first meeting me I think.

Lyaka the computer wrote: 
TRUST THE COMPUTER! THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!


*snerk* That game was fun. INSANE... but fun.

Lyaka wrote: 
Items, quoth the mods, are single-use.


Quoth the mods where? I got that impression too but I can't for the life of me remember what I read that GAVE that impression in the first place. Anyone got a link?

... And I've just realised I'm getting worked up over not having a link that I've requested when I haven't actually POSTED the gosh darned request yet. It's in THIS post.. more than once.

MrBriney wrote: 
People do need to post their thoughts, but I don't want people to feel pressured into posting before they feel they've fully compiled a coherent post


You may not want people to feel pressured into posting before they have a coherant post (And why the hell do I get the feeling that "coherant" is going to be this games "distraction" word?) but the fact remains that if people are waiting and not occasionally giving us their less than cohesive thought processes - then we're not going to get ANY of their thought processes.

I'm not sure I like the whole "Don't post until it all makes perfect sense" vibe that I'm getting off you. I'm not sure that it's rogue like behaviour or not, but I do know that it's something that bugs me. Since I've already watchlisted the entire town though there's nothing else I can really do about it for the moment except point out that it bugs me.

MrBriney wrote: 
Taelac wrote: 
So, your vote entirely explained by "gut" didn't really get your point across, and you didn't save it for later. You don't believe in citing real life, and specifically here address people not able to make their point due to real life situations, so what was your reason for posting something that didn't get a point across instead of saving it for later?

Uh, I think it did get my point across actually. People understood that it was a gut vote, therefore the point was made...


Which people? And just because there is understanding of a post based on "gut feelings" there has been nothing to back it up. Which is generally required before "people" will get off your back about it.

fluff

ZOMG I just found my first grey hair.

/fluff

MrBriney wrote: 
To answer you though, there is something called context. Try reading the post again. Then, with the word context in mind, you might understand where I'm coming from.


I did read it in "context" as it were, and I'm inclined to agree with Taelac's statement about it being a completely unsupported vote put forth with no reasoning... of wait "half thought through to appease the masses" is what you used wasn't it? Balderdash! BALDERDASH! (Love that word. And this one SCRUMPTIOUS. SCRUMPTIOUS BALDERDASH! Ok, back in the realm of babbling not re-reading)

Since it came up in a quote and reply, going back to the original line

MrBriney wrote: 
Would the vote in these circumstances been met with such narrow-eyed skepticism if it were Quitex? Riss, even?


Yes. Yes a vote from bloody nowhere with nothing behind it and no forthcoming support on a player who really hadn't SAID anything yet in the first 12 hours of the game would be met with the same scepticism if it had been Quitex and/or Riss. In fact if I recall correctly, it WAS when they did silly things in their first games as well.

For new players information. You'll find that we jump on all sorts of things - like the above - all the time. Vote with your gut! Please! But try and find something that will convince us that you're not sitting back, sipping lime cocktails throwing a dart at a list of players to pick a vote candidate. It's not that we care if that's what you're doing, we care if you can't convince us that we should at the least be looking at the person you're voting for with suspicion. The rogues have been able to persuade the town into doing some stupid votes before and yet we still want that convincing argument from you. Odd I know but true all the same.

Master wrote: 
I really, really don't like the way you're handling some things, notably the above and how you said you didn't like pressure votes while having a pressure vote on Phoe.


Reading comprehension check failed or has something else on the brain completely? PLEASE EXPLAIN!

Marinated wrote: 
The only problem with it is that one vote doesn't make a lynch so an explanation is needed to get others to join you.
How is it that what takes me a full paragraph you can say in a sentence?

RogueQuitex, our beloved Moderator type person wrote: 
On the other hand, so proud of y'all!!! We have no player risking inactivity now. Whooo!!!
Why then can I not remember ANYTHING from AhoyLindsay? Did you change your avatar on my AL? Since I JUST went back to the start of the thread and all.

NotJaret wrote: 
Really someone has to make some move to actually get people posting non-fluffy posts.
I read this and thought "Are you reading the same game as I am? Because I'm NOT seeing a great deal of fluff (Which is oddly odd for day 1) I'm also not seeing the stupid amounts of meta that usually dominate Day 1, I'm seeing people posting things asking questions and getting answers. Very odd. I have my eye on you!

Phoenix crits with WALL OF TEXT for OVER 9000 and goes to an all day birthday party.

OH DEAR GODS. I just realised we have Lyaka AND Searmin AND Me playing....

I apologise in advance to the poor, poor newbies who are going to get slammed with massive posts like this from all over now.... I will do my best not to get into a highly involved discussion with Lya and Sear because that would cause brain melt down.

No I'm still not ready to vote for anyone. I'd be chucking that dart at a board right now and I have yet to catch a rogue using that method. My Magic 8 Ball says "Most sensible idea yet" when told I'm not voting yet.
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~ Phoenix or Danae

Depends on the colour of your ocean really.
[May 25, 2012 2:41:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
firebolt153

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Ooh, sorry 'bout that Lassie. Was reading/posting from my phone during my lunch break and mis-remembered who said that.
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[May 25, 2012 2:51:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
clasalle

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No problem, Firebolts. Also just a note guys try to remember to call people by their Forum name. Some people just don't know who your pirate is and last game I played we had some confusion because Setsusa has 3 different pirate names....or more I'm really not sure.
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master2482

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Phoe wrote: 
Master wrote: 
I really, really don't like the way you're handling some things, notably the above and how you said you didn't like pressure votes while having a pressure vote on Phoe.

Reading comprehension check failed or has something else on the brain completely? PLEASE EXPLAIN!

I accidentally the whole thing.
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The people about there, had they been awake instead of asleep, at other times would have seen even stranger things. Some day, but not at this time, I shall make an announcement of something that I never once dreamed of.

[May 25, 2012 3:07:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
NotJaret

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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@Star, I am saying based on previous games I have skimmed and not this game...MrB stirred the pot which i thought would be an anti-fluff maneuver (this is my first game like I said before)
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Jaret of Hunter Emerald
[May 25, 2012 3:13:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
randomact

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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NotJaret wrote: 
@Star, I am saying based on previous games I have skimmed and not this game...MrB stirred the pot which i thought would be an anti-fluff maneuver (this is my first game like I said before)
Do you believe that prior to Mrbriney's vote the thread was just fluff?
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Loathe/Forever.

Cremate tells ye, "i think i just broke my hymen"
[May 25, 2012 3:22:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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