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patgangster

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Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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As most of you are aware, chart boxes are not following the Obsidian Ocean's rotation of SMHs and drop all 4 kinds of maps at all times.

Right now, this is breaking the variety each week the map rotation is supposed to cause. Right now, during HS-spawning week, Atlantis navvers are having no problem paying 400k for an atlantis map so they can continue doing citadel runs during the weeks atlantis maps are not available, so they can keep raking in poe at ridiculous rates.

This points out several problems to me:

1) (especially for the navigator/vessel owner/restock cut taker, but also for everyone in general): Atlantis/Citadel run payout is insanely high.

2) Haunted Seas payout is stupidly low, navigators are having trouble paying for their cannonballs from their restock cuts. A pillage in the greywaters earns players more money than a haunted seas run.

3) Chart boxes REALLY should not give out-of-rotation maps. Please fix.


Edit: Slightly alternative fix which I'd also be happy to see (possibly in addition to other changes, or just on their own): Increase payout of SMHs on their set weeks / reduce it on their non-weeks.
HS could use a major buff on HS week, CI payout is still often seen as low and could use a buff on CI week as well. Atlantis and krakens could use a nerf on their non-weeks.

Edit 2: Jcmorgan has made a large list of suggestions to increase SMH balance in the past: see here

More edits: It has also been pointed out to me that once they become available, black boxes will likely behave the same as chart boxes, and if changes are not made the SMH rotation will become near-completely pointless.
(But this one could be wrong; we obviously don't know if black boxes work or not since they are untested, as they don't exist yet)
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TriplePat, Emerald.
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by patgangster at Aug 6, 2017 2:30:19 PM]
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Twistedxmnj



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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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yes citadels need a ner big time, we only have around 350avg players online, citadels ruin voyages, the pay out difference is ridiculous. What's the point of rotation if you have a chart box ????????
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Perenoel1

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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This points out several problems to me:

1) (especially for the navigator/vessel owner/restock cut taker, but also for everyone in general): Atlantis/Citadel run payout is insanely high.

2) Haunted Seas payout is stupidly low, navigators are having trouble paying for their cannonballs from their restock cuts. A pillage in the greywaters earns players more money than a haunted seas run.

3) Chart boxes REALLY should not give out-of-rotation maps. Please fix.



I agree with all 3 points.

Cits are also super safe. A xebec cit run should port at least 95% of the time. And with so many good SFers its even low risk to be PvPd. Either adjust the payouts, or the difficulty, or both.
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Tzz Made of Fail on Midnight
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xelto

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Across the board, payouts need to be looked at. Citadels, kraken eggs, and greedy purses all need to drop what they're worth. Haunted Seas needs a boost, and Cursed Isles could use one as well, though not as much.
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Perenoel1

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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BKs should get a boost. People avoid them because they are more difficult and pay less than a regular battle. Maybe a small boost to IOs and vikings as well?

Also, I'm not sure if flotillas are out yet, but if all flots are sinking now, the old non-sinking flots should be brought up to the same pay as sinking flots.
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Tzz Made of Fail on Midnight
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Perenoel1 at Aug 6, 2017 6:58:59 PM]
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smexi4u

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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As most of you are aware, chart boxes are not following the Obsidian Ocean's rotation of SMHs and drop all 4 kinds of maps at all times.

Right now, this is breaking the variety each week the map rotation is supposed to cause. Right now, during HS-spawning week, Atlantis navvers are having no problem paying 400k for an atlantis map so they can continue doing citadel runs during the weeks atlantis maps are not available, so they can keep raking in poe at ridiculous rates.

This points out several problems to me:

1) (especially for the navigator/vessel owner/restock cut taker, but also for everyone in general): Atlantis/Citadel run payout is insanely high.

2) Haunted Seas payout is stupidly low, navigators are having trouble paying for their cannonballs from their restock cuts. A pillage in the greywaters earns players more money than a haunted seas run.

3) Chart boxes REALLY should not give out-of-rotation maps. Please fix.


Edit: Slightly alternative fix which I'd also be happy to see (possibly in addition to other changes, or just on their own): Increase payout of SMHs on their set weeks / reduce it on their non-weeks.
HS could use a major buff on HS week, CI payout is still often seen as low and could use a buff on CI week as well. Atlantis and krakens could use a nerf on their non-weeks.

Edit 2: Jcmorgan has made a large list of suggestions to increase SMH balance in the past: see here

More edits: It has also been pointed out to me that once they become available, black boxes will likely behave the same as chart boxes, and if changes are not made the SMH rotation will become near-completely pointless.
(But this one could be wrong; we obviously don't know if black boxes work or not since they are untested, as they don't exist yet)



I agree and everyone has said it for a long time, HS needs a payrise. However Atlantis dose not, and the vessel owners cut is to go with the risk. If we sink in atlantis where the ones who loser 300k+ depending on the ship. Then additional stock prices. Its not cheap losing ships. If any smh needs a pay cut it would be kraken as there is no risk involved.
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[Aug 6, 2017 7:02:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Right now, during HS-spawning week, Atlantis navvers are having no problem paying 400k for an atlantis map so they can continue doing citadel runs during the weeks atlantis maps are not available



Update:

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TriplePat, Emerald.
[Aug 7, 2017 1:31:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mari_

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Absolutely chart boxes need to be fixed - only spawning what is available on Obsidian on that current rotation.

As for payouts, CI and HS have long needed the payouts increased to make it a fair balance of time v poe earned.
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[Aug 8, 2017 12:40:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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They actually did make changes about two years ago!

It was certainly a good step in the right direction, unfortunately atlantis (well, more citadels than everything else in atlantis) and kraken hunts still clearly outmatch HS and CI in payout.
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TriplePat, Emerald.
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Gorillabuddy

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Agree that poe earned should correspond to time/investment as well as risk.

Imo, HS should pay the most since it's the most dangerous and the hardest to load for, basically requiring a brig, but more typically a Xebec. Also it's been the black sheep of the sea monster family, so a little love would be nice purely for being a change of pace.

Atlantis should be next, since it's a little easier to load, and has less chance of sinking, but you're still putting a very expensive ship at risk.

Then CI, since you probably won't sink and it's not that difficult to load, but there is some risk involved.

Then Kraken, since it has no risk other than sailing to and from the lair (and the possibility of wasting money on lifeboats I guess) and it's easy to load. You don't even need jobbers at all, you can solo it if you want.
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[Aug 8, 2017 6:52:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
EmpressTamar

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Both issues fixed after today's patch. Thanks, Forculus. :)
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[Aug 8, 2017 9:10:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Botched, not fixed ;)
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[Aug 8, 2017 9:12:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Praise the Forc for fixes
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TriplePat, Emerald.
[Aug 8, 2017 9:15:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Macpirateer



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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Nice fix all in all. Should have an interesting effect on Rogue Marks and general doubloon levels as well, considering they won't be used for boxes really now like they have been the last few days for Atlantis chart attempts.
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Scarpath

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Agree that poe earned should correspond to time/investment as well as risk.


+1

No, actually, +10

Payouts are horrid. If you wanna make big bucks on your bnav skills, go run a elite pillage or something else with a potential RISK. Ugh.

And I still want to see the graveyard change from swordfight to rumble and have real rewards. We already have a good swordfight SMH, give us a rumble one!
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Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian!

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Finlanders1



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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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I dislike hugely new update on payouts. No worth doing cit runs anymore. RIP
I run cit runs often. I agree owners get paid little too much as my calculations on my runs i used to earn 1k-1,5k each AC we haul its higher because i let people haul a lot on my runs. Noww only earn like half the poe what comes on hold than before. lets do some calculations.

Estimated values ( current prices on obsidian)
- 1k cannonballs = 72k
- 250 rum = 25k
- Tops for 1 entry = 50k depending how long does it last (1k each top station a DR)
- MAA pay is usually in most runs 50k-100k depending how well it goes
- Atlantis charts cost 10k a day depending what price you bought it with

so Total is 210k-260k

Other expenses are what most don't focus on is Ship value of the risk like xebec about 280k owners should at least earn 1/4th of it value or half for future investments of ships and runs.

total is 500k what owner risks on every time he does a run for people in the ocean.

with same amount of ac's like 300 ac's i used to earn 1k-1,5k each AC depending how well we have hauled other chests so its 300k about. Now today i did run with nearly same amount of AC's too i earned 150k so its half amount i earned than before.

I recommend it to increased to close to same amount as it used to be i just wanted to make point of how much is costs for everyone to run a citadel run.

Also i want to make clear people have choose to go on a run either with 70% jobbers cut ( it will stay there now because Owners get nothing ) if it is what it used to be like nothing changed i personally would put jobbers cut higher. You as jobber have to make a choose not to job on a run if the cut of the pay doesn't please you. That way you can make effect to runners to increase it and get better pays for jobbers.

imagine payouts on atlantis if cit runs suck's.

I hope they put SMH back as they used to be but agree hugely with HS increase. Also timing is bad for this, Stock prices are high compared to old oceans.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Finlanders1 at Aug 8, 2017 1:21:40 PM]
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Perenoel1

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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I havnt seen the numbers yet but this looks good in theory. I hope WF atlantis is still possible though. Cit runs were broken but regular Atlantis was in a pretty good spot.

Also, please make sure black boxes get this same fix so this doesn't become an issue again later.
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patgangster

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Somewhat agree

Atlantis pay seems nerfed pretty strongly - some quick math on a one-run sample size seems to suggest between a 30% or 40% pay decrease - which is absolutely insane.

Without trying to make a decision too hastily, this seems like a bit much. I'm not a professional game designer or balancer, but my personal suggestion would be to put it at ~20-25% below 'pre-nerf' payout. I'd recommend the OMs/developers/whoever pitches in on this to watch payouts closely.

TL;DR Atlantis nerf was well-deserved but might have been a bit too much.
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TriplePat, Emerald.
[Aug 8, 2017 1:33:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Forculus
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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Without trying to make a decision too hastily, this seems like a bit much. I'm not a professional game designer or balancer, but my personal suggestion would be to put it at ~20-25% below 'pre-nerf' payout. I'd recommend the OMs/developers/whoever pitches in on this to watch payouts closely.

TL;DR Atlantis nerf was well-deserved but might have been a bit too much.

One of the things we want to try with Obsidian is to be more experimental with our adjustments/tweaks, since part of the reason for the ocean is to mix things up and change the status quo. However, we'll definitely keep listening and dial the changes back a bit if need be. So thanks for the feedback, and I'd encourage others to weigh in as well.
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Finlanders1



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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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I'm doing a test cit run tomorrow and calculate everything what owners get and jobbers compared to cit runs in past. At the moment break in point where owners get the money back what spent for the run is 300-350 ac's specially for me because i pay 1k average tops for each DR thats like 100k for 10 DRs quickly. for jobbers getting extra. One reason jobbers are getting alot on citadel run at the moment is jobbers cut. Half the cit runners have 70% jobbers cut and is one of the reasons we talking about this on thread now. Jobbers should not choose to job those cit runs if seem not fair for jobbers. good break even point should be 200-250 ac's and after after that profit because most citadel runs port with 300-400 ac's and sometimes in luck of good lasting jobbers 500+ ac's then owner usually get paid alot also jobbers get a good pay.

Of course profits for the owner goes lower when jobbers cut is higher and restocking cut is lower. Jobbers make a movement and it will be put up. But ATM it has to be 70% until its changed up so we don't run citadel runs at loss. I want to buy War frigate to test out normal Atlantis pay :(
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Finlanders1 at Aug 8, 2017 2:17:59 PM]
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patgangster

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Without trying to make a decision too hastily, this seems like a bit much. I'm not a professional game designer or balancer, but my personal suggestion would be to put it at ~20-25% below 'pre-nerf' payout. I'd recommend the OMs/developers/whoever pitches in on this to watch payouts closely.

TL;DR Atlantis nerf was well-deserved but might have been a bit too much.

One of the things we want to try with Obsidian is to be more experimental with our adjustments/tweaks, since part of the reason for the ocean is to mix things up and change the status quo. However, we'll definitely keep listening and dial the changes back a bit if need be. So thanks for the feedback, and I'd encourage others to weigh in as well.


This is something I love seeing! Obsidian has definitely been a good mix up from the previous oceans so far and just about every change I can think of has been a push in (what I feel is like) the right direction. I'd rather see larger, experimental changes that get tuned back than small adjustments that don't end up affecting anything (Or nothing at all, which has also been the case for a long time many times)
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TriplePat, Emerald.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by patgangster at Aug 8, 2017 2:18:50 PM]
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majestrate

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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I dislike hugely new update on payouts. No worth doing cit runs anymore. RIP
I run cit runs often. I agree owners get paid little too much as my calculations on my runs i used to earn 1k-1,5k each AC we haul its higher because i let people haul a lot on my runs. Noww only earn like half the poe what comes on hold than before. lets do some calculations.

Estimated values ( current prices on obsidian)
- 1k cannonballs = 72k
- 250 rum = 25k
- Tops for 1 entry = 50k depending how long does it last (1k each top station a DR)
- MAA pay is usually in most runs 50k-100k depending how well it goes
- Atlantis charts cost 10k a day depending what price you bought it with

so Total is 210k-260k

Other expenses are what most don't focus on is Ship value of the risk like xebec about 280k owners should at least earn 1/4th of it value or half for future investments of ships and runs.

total is 500k what owner risks on every time he does a run for people in the ocean.

with same amount of ac's like 300 ac's i used to earn 1k-1,5k each AC depending how well we have hauled other chests so its 300k about. Now today i did run with nearly same amount of AC's too i earned 150k so its half amount i earned than before.

I recommend it to increased to close to same amount as it used to be i just wanted to make point of how much is costs for everyone to run a citadel run.

Also i want to make clear people have choose to go on a run either with 70% jobbers cut ( it will stay there now because Owners get nothing ) if it is what it used to be like nothing changed i personally would put jobbers cut higher. You as jobber have to make a choose not to job on a run if the cut of the pay doesn't please you. That way you can make effect to runners to increase it and get better pays for jobbers.

imagine payouts on atlantis if cit runs suck's.

I hope they put SMH back as they used to be but agree hugely with HS increase. Also timing is bad for this, Stock prices are high compared to old oceans.

Quit paying extra for tops and MAA and you save yourself 100,000-150,000 eights per run. Because you choose to do that doesn't mean that the payouts should be built around your generosity. If we're going to do that, then let's adjust pillaging payouts because I want to start paying 50,000 eights per incred at each league point
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xelto

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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One of the things we want to try with Obsidian is to be more experimental with our adjustments/tweaks, since part of the reason for the ocean is to mix things up and change the status quo. However, we'll definitely keep listening and dial the changes back a bit if need be. So thanks for the feedback, and I'd encourage others to weigh in as well.

I'm surprised that you haven't, at any point, started tracking average PoE paid out vs time spent on the various major activities (pillage (counting each greedy trinket as about 5k), Atlantis w/o citadels, Atlantis w/ citadels, Cursed Isles, Haunted Seas w/o graveyards, Haunted Seas w/ graveyards, Kraken). Or at least that you haven't told us you've done this. It would give you an interesting view into the underside of the game, so to speak.

Naturally, if you can break this down further by skill levels, that would be better. But anything that helps you get a better idea of where the money's coming from would help.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by xelto at Aug 8, 2017 2:39:33 PM]
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Finlanders1



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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Yes that i what needs to be done if cant make profit from citadel runs and Atlantis but it been longtime a thing to pay tops to motivate people to do better and longer and same time earn extra even sink or not. Also MAA pay is paid on every run also just because its a important person job for naver to trust on and weight off navers shoulders and deserve to be paid also.
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xelto

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Yes that i what needs to be done if cant make profit from citadel runs and Atlantis but it been longtime a thing to pay tops to motivate people to do better and longer and same time earn extra even sink or not. Also MAA pay is paid on every run also just because its a important person job for naver to trust on and weight off navers shoulders and deserve to be paid also.


Pay the MAA, yes. Have him share the gushing cash... not needed.

The navigator/owner's share of the loot, once the cost of rum and shot, plus the risk of sinking is factored in, and possibly modest pay for the MAA, shouldn't be much more than double that of the jobbers. And it doesn't have to be even double what the jobbers make.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by xelto at Aug 8, 2017 2:44:30 PM]
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Finlanders1



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Biggest problem of whole thing is Jobbers cut being too low. Most runs are 70-75% ofc owners earn alot more in emerald many did with 85% with 15% restock was more fair and i can confirm it was a decent amount of profits then it should be jobbers choose not to job on runs if not good share of cut
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patgangster

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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Yes that i what needs to be done if cant make profit from citadel runs and Atlantis but it been longtime a thing to pay tops to motivate people to do better and longer and same time earn extra even sink or not. Also MAA pay is paid on every run also just because its a important person job for naver to trust on and weight off navers shoulders and deserve to be paid also.


Pay the MAA, yes. Have him share the gushing cash... not needed.

The navigator/owner's share of the loot, once the cost of rum and shot, plus the risk of sinking is factored in, and possibly modest pay for the MAA, shouldn't be much more than double that of the jobbers. And it doesn't have to be even double what the jobbers make.


This is a very slippery slope and the point where good run vs bad run becomes VERY noticable.

Let's take a pillage for a very quick example, even though this can be applied to anything (losing cits on citadels, CIs exiting early/foraging less, taking longer to kill HS enemies, etc).

Player 1, mrplebtherockrammer loses 25% of his battles. The ones he wins, he grab about 500 poe initial shares. (10k payout at 30% restock cut, 7k split between 7 people, 500 initials). He fires 25 shots at 50 each, using 1250 poe worth of shot. He makes 1750 poe in restock cut here. On his losses, he loses about 15 cannonballs, 5 rum, and 1k from the booty for a total of 2k or so. On average, he makes 1k every battle.
Jobber 500, runner 1500. 1 to 3.

Player 2, averagejoeinterarchman loses 10% of his battles. When he wins, he grabs about 1250 poe initial shares. (25k payout at 30% restock cut, 17.5k split between 7 people = 1250) He also shoots 25 balls, and profits 6250 in restock cut. when he loses a battle, he loses about 25 cannonballs, 5 rum and 4k from the booty for a total of about 6k. On average, he makes 6k a battle. His jobbers earn 250% of what player 1's jobbers make, but he makes 600% extra on restock cut. Jobber 1250, runner 7250. 1 to 5.

Player 3, elitebrigandkiller9001, wins every battle. When he wins, he grabs about 3000 poe initial shares. (60k payout at 30% restock cut, 42k split between jobbers. He also fires 25 shots, and makes about 16750 poe in restock cut every battle. His jobbers earn 6x what player 1's make, he makes 17 times as much as bonus for himself.
Jobber 3000, runner ~20000. 1 to 6¾ or so.


How well can you expect people to do, how much do you want to reward people for being far above average, and how punishing is it to be bad?
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TriplePat, Emerald.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by patgangster at Aug 8, 2017 3:01:27 PM]
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smexi4u

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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How well can you expect people to do, how much do you want to reward people for being far above average, and how punishing is it to be bad?



its not about punishing the bad its about being rewarded for what you do, if your losing battles of cause your going to lose more poe then u make. and that red ship you just passed over because its to hard is the one im attacking to get the better poe while pillaging.

im not sure if it still dose but DR used to effect the poe rates to, as well as people coming and going. get yourself 5 peeps u know who will stay for 5-10 battles or w/e your doing. and your increase will hit max pay out quite easily, but every lose every person who leaves u take a hit.

and then Atlantis, why anyone's doing a cit run in a xebec is just beyond me, with a xebec u should be in z5 sinking the crap outta anything that comes your way, thats where u make the poe in atlantis. cits are just better for the items, then its reverse in HS frigs get u the goodies and gys get the poe.

so sure you can play safe and do stuff all or you can take the risks to earn the bigger poe, everyone can nav its not hard, just be smart about your moves and not just throw what ever you think will work at it.
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Zadkiel on Obsidian,
SO of Polaris.


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[Aug 8, 2017 4:28:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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The numbers weren't specific to pillaging and were mainly examples; all other kinds of runs have similar effects where getting more payout faster/more efficiently benefits the runner more compared to the jobbers, and doing worse in general punishes the runner more.

Changing payout for your jobbers means you affect runners a LOT more harshly, because your restock cut will scale up with with payouts hard where your restock costs stay relatively even between good and bad runs.


As for your atlantis point: Nope. Maybe with the recent nerf that's true (we don't know yet), but citadel runs paid more cash than backwalling did. Chests have large amounts of poe too, not just items.
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TriplePat, Emerald.
[Aug 8, 2017 4:39:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
EmpressTamar

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Re: Fix chart boxes and/or adjust SMH payouts. Reply to this Post
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While I do think nerfing xebec cit runs was a good thing, upon more thought I'm concerned what this will mean for other voyages into atlantis. Friglantis barely paid anything as it was. Brig and junk cits I think paid out fairly to jobbers, and gave an appropriate amount to the navver for the risk level. I think everyone's main complaint was that the navigator made too much poe from xebecs, especially since it is difficult to sink a xebec (compared to other ship sizes) so the risk/reward was unbalanced. Perhaps instead of a cut across the board to atlantis, why not instead reduce the number of ACs gotten from xebec citadels, or reduce the cut that the navigator takes from atlantis citadels?
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Empresstamar of Emerald.
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