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Posted by GreatBob at Sep 19, 2017 2:49:17 PM
Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
Is there any possibility of having the thought process behind enabling 20k tables? Have they been enabled as a test, or are they here to stay? While I certainly concede they're not nearly as bad as the 200k tables, they still allow for a pretty disgusting amount of money to be moved around; with luck on your side playing poker is far more lucrative than shipboard activities.


If they are here to stay, could we see some kind of restriction? Disabling No Limit games for the highest buyin seems like a good start, if only to take some of the wind out of the sails when it comes to quickly gaining money.
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Posted by Sagacious at Sep 19, 2017 3:01:00 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
5% rake seems fair to me in exchange for more enjoyable stakes.
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Posted by patgangster at Sep 19, 2017 3:08:44 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
The original announcements for Obsidian mentioned poker up to 2k-20k; I guess they enabled it later to not mess with the first 2-3 months of startup so much.

I think 2k-20k poker existing is perfectly fine, especially considering the harsh 5% rake on it. You're going to need a good amount of skill to consistently outmatch shipboard activities with it.
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Posted by Filthyjake at Sep 19, 2017 5:43:11 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
playing poker is far more lucrative than shipboard activities


I am so sick of poker haters.

Lets ban PvP's 100% take is much more lucrative then attacking a brigand.

Lets set prices on all shops and commodities so profit is less then 10%.

If a pillage is using small balls pay must Edit more Less then 10% restock if you can't make money your not good. Med balls 15% large 20%.

No more SMH they pay more then pillages.

WHY do people care how others make poe....

Either limit all gambling or none. A single 500k hearts game or 1m SF is also more lucrative. SF/Rumble Tournaments with 100k buy ins also more lucrative.

Problem with to much money moving around make the ocean make it SUBSCRIPTION or limit dub purchases greatly. Why should some people be able to buy 1050 dubs and send in an email to buy more and you are worried about someone walking away with a 500k poker win....

Also fix labor pay Expert Distilling shouldn't pay more then Basic far to much money. 72 hours at 100poe with 9 pirates 64,800 poe a day can't make that pillaging better cap pay at 40 poe and hour. I mean should someone be able to make almost 2m in a month distilling.

Cap kade pay at 2k so people still pillage 9999 is much to lucrative.

5% Rake on 1m poker table is a 50k poe sink, this would happen many many times a day. Poe Sinks control inflation.

All wagers should have a rake.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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Posted by patgangster at Sep 19, 2017 5:48:16 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
No more SMH they pay more then pillages.


All joking aside: They actually don't.
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TriplePat, Emerald.

Posted by Scarpath at Sep 19, 2017 9:37:00 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
I'm fine with the poker stakes while we have the rake. The rake put a sink, and a little nagging thought to be a little more thoughtful with the poe when gambling. I've never been much of a poker player, but I understand that many players are. But hey, the 200k tables were the issue, not the 20k ones. The 20k are FINE.

(Also, while I'm actually talking on parlor game issues, I give a +1 to the idea of extending the rake to the other card games. Encourage players to play your games, GH. Not the ones that can be found elsewhere.)
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Posted by joshuawhelan at Sep 20, 2017 5:45:01 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
No more SMH they pay more then pillages.


2 hours in a cit run: 10k
2 hours on a (successful) Wild Seas pillage: 30k+ post-division
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Posted by Filthyjake at Sep 20, 2017 6:38:43 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
Ok no more pillages they pay more then SMH. We all must do the same thing all the time so its fair. LOL But lets get rid of the vestal owners chest cause well its just to much of an advantage for getting a Fam or trinkets.

Of course my post is/was a joke but it just points out there are lots of ways to make more pay then pillaging. Stop Attacking Poker cause you don't like it. All wagers are more likely to pay better then pillaging. Some times people just want to sit at a poker table why should then not get paid. Perhaps people would rather those types (self included yet I love the sea's) Move on to a different game or go to a poker only game.

Cap them all add rakes to all or leave them all alone.

No one complains that X pirate constantly runs things which pays more then jobbing for the same run. This is a game some will do this some will do that that is what makes this game great.

Don't try and force me out to the ships. Since poker was destroyed I spend more times in the shops then ever before. Why cause I need to be able to come and go not stuck on ship. Poker provided that I can walk away take a phone call ect. (I play at work). Keep trying to drive people out to the ships, but don't be upset when the game's population starts trickling down as your making it a pillage only game. More people sit on the dock doing NOTHING then paying poker, lets hand out loitering tickets.

#boycott parlor badges till poker is returned to its 200k glory xP
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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Posted by joshuawhelan at Sep 20, 2017 6:50:02 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
I'm no expert but if I was to join up to a game called "Puzzle Pirates" tomorrow, I'd be unlikely to quit the day after just because there's no 20k - 200k poker. I'd kind of expect something along the lines of puzzling, piracy & ships....

Emerald has 20k - 200k tables if it's that big of a deal.
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Posted by superstarsam at Sep 20, 2017 9:42:29 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
Not sure if this is the right thread to post this, but rake hasn't been implemented faithfully. In YPP poker, if Player 1 bets and Player 2 folds, Player 1's bet is nonetheless taken into the pot and then raked. This is not how it works in casino settings or in online real money poker. Indeed, if player 1 was to (for whatever reason) shove all-in into a tiny pot and win by folding out the other players, the rake would return them less than they started the hand with.

While I'm all for enormous PoE sinks being included on poker to disincentivize it, I was just wondering if those who implemented the (entirely welcome) concept of a rake into this game are aware that it does not resemble a standard poker rake.
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Posted by Flyerme at Sep 20, 2017 10:32:12 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
The 5% rake seems fine to me when playing so far.

I can see the benefit in applying it to uncalled preflop all ins given how some play here.

Posted by mysteryman64 at Sep 20, 2017 10:55:33 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
Not sure if this is the right thread to post this, but rake hasn't been implemented faithfully. In YPP poker, if Player 1 bets and Player 2 folds, Player 1's bet is nonetheless taken into the pot and then raked. This is not how it works in casino settings or in online real money poker. Indeed, if player 1 was to (for whatever reason) shove all-in into a tiny pot and win by folding out the other players, the rake would return them less than they started the hand with.

While I'm all for enormous PoE sinks being included on poker to disincentivize it, I was just wondering if those who implemented the (entirely welcome) concept of a rake into this game are aware that it does not resemble a standard poker rake.


While true, it would also encourage more frequent all-ins which annoys much of the community. In its current state, it helps discourage strong bets prior to the flop.

Not necessarily a reason not to change it, but something to take into consideration.
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Posted by BobJanova at Sep 20, 2017 3:59:26 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
Of course my post is/was a joke but it just points out there are lots of ways to make more pay then pillaging. Stop Attacking Poker cause you don't like it.
It's not just that we don't like it (actually I quite like poker), it's that (i) it's not at all piratey and (ii) it can redistribute money far faster than you can get it through piratey activities, to the extent that it doesn't matter if you're any good at anything else, poker is the only important skill.
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Posted by Filthyjake at Sep 20, 2017 6:21:57 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
 
Of course my post is/was a joke but it just points out there are lots of ways to make more pay then pillaging. Stop Attacking Poker cause you don't like it.
It's not just that we don't like it (actually I quite like poker), it's that (i) it's not at all piratey and (ii) it can redistribute money far faster than you can get it through piratey activities, to the extent that it doesn't matter if you're any good at anything else, poker is the only important skill.


How is Hearts, Spades, Sparing SF, Rumbling, Treasure Drop or running a tailor or any shop Piratey, its no different.

Pirates hunt merchants, each other, not monsters guess that should go too. Its a game. Pirates fought to death not for wagers. Im sure they jumped into rafts and went looking for eggs. Or drive into odd building that pop up in the ocean to fight goons.

 
I'm no expert but if I was to join up to a game called "Puzzle Pirates" tomorrow, I'd be unlikely to quit the day after just because there's no 20k - 200k poker. I'd kind of expect something along the lines of puzzling, piracy & ships....


Would you if you joined it had 200k tables?
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Posted by LJAmethyst at Sep 20, 2017 8:46:01 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
Okay, let's put it this way. Define "piratey" as "the spirit of the game as it was on Midnight in 2004". Poker was completely alien to the pioneering players of Puzzle Pirates. It was a naked grab for cash by Three Rings, because they judged by the success of online gambling sites that people would jump at the chance to buy in with doubloons for money. And it worked. It worked all too well. It created a new focus of activity for everyone logging on. Greenies would quit pillages as soon as they had enough for a buy-in. Crew officers would neglect leading pillages because they were winning/losing big at the tables in the Inns. Flag royals would gamble up a blockade in a high-stakes game, rather than scraping and saving and fund-raising (fund-raising is an activity that brings people together and unites them in a common purpose, and donors feel personally invested in the cause.)

There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.
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Posted by cmdrzoom at Sep 20, 2017 11:51:23 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
Well said.
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Posted by mari_ at Sep 21, 2017 12:15:34 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
Okay, let's put it this way. Define "piratey" as "the spirit of the game as it was on Midnight in 2004". Poker was completely alien to the pioneering players of Puzzle Pirates. It was a naked grab for cash by Three Rings, because they judged by the success of online gambling sites that people would jump at the chance to buy in with doubloons for money. And it worked. It worked all too well. It created a new focus of activity for everyone logging on. Greenies would quit pillages as soon as they had enough for a buy-in. Crew officers would neglect leading pillages because they were winning/losing big at the tables in the Inns. Flag royals would gamble up a blockade in a high-stakes game, rather than scraping and saving and fund-raising (fund-raising is an activity that brings people together and unites them in a common purpose, and donors feel personally invested in the cause.)

There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.


This pretty much sums it up, already on Obsidian you have gone from see barely 1 table for poker up to seeing 3+ daily - not a huge jump but a big jump nonetheless. You want this game to work, you need people on ships, running ships and doing stuff on ships. Right now putting in the higher stakes in poker, and not capping the hearts/spades buy-ins is going to have a massive effect over time to people sitting on the ships.
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Posted by Filthyjake at Sep 21, 2017 3:49:56 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
This pretty much sums it up, already on Obsidian you have gone from see barely 1 table for poker up to seeing 3+ daily - not a huge jump but a big jump nonetheless. You want this game to work, you need people on ships, running ships and doing stuff on ships.

People want poe, I have seen a decrease in KH and Cit's since they "fixed" the pay.

So the game won't work if the people who can't puzzle on a ship for what ever reason they should play some other game. Poker is a game you can play while doing other activities easily yet still be logged in playing. I often play used to play poker while waiting for friends ect or a run that is appealing to me yes it can pay but at least I am not straight lining or afking on a pillage because real life won't let me focus 100% of my attention on a game.

 
Right now putting in the higher stakes in poker, and not capping the hearts/spades buy-ins is going to have a massive effect over time to people sitting on the ships.

This is my argument, cap all or none. If money moving to easy was an issue a rake was a great idea yet only hits one part of the game that has gambling and should affect all gambling.

This wager should have aPoe Sink in the form of a rake as well.

To many people playing gambling?? Create a wager badge 20 Dubs - 50 Dubs. No more parlor badge (I still don't have one) all the games are free you just can't play for poe. End the fee days I would love cribbage checkers, and other games for the ship loading waits especially since you can't mutli client. Instead I log on find little to nothing to do end up in the shops rather then the ships. That said I can't afford the 200k table but it is total barnacle that only one form of gambling is hit.
 
Okay, let's put it this way. Define "piratey" as "the spirit of the game as it was on Midnight in 2004"

I wasn't around but I doubt the game looks the same as since I joined I have seen rigging, patching, Kracken added.

 
There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.

I understand the issue with people pulling a million out of the poker pot, but the rake is a great equalizer. People still can do so with other games and they don't have a rake. I understand my argument is going to fall on deaf ears. I guess I will keep shops till it gets boring with out commode markets its annoying . Honestly I can say that I miss poker and with out it the game is to demanding on my time yes I used it to supplement my income. I support the game with real money, but with out poker or enough time I can't afford to play the game I enjoy on Dark Seas.
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Posted by majestrate at Sep 21, 2017 11:27:12 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
So the game won't work if the people who can't puzzle on a ship for what ever reason they should play some other game. Poker is a game you can play while doing other activities easily yet still be logged in playing. I often play used to play poker while waiting for friends ect or a run that is appealing to me yes it can pay but at least I am not straight lining or afking on a pillage because real life won't let me focus 100% of my attention on a game.

Past experience tells us that how you treat poker is not how the average player treated poker. You use it as a time sink, great. That does not dismiss the fact that the scenarios LJAmethyst listed were (are, on other oceans?) the norm.

 
Cala wrote: 
Right now putting in the higher stakes in poker, and not capping the hearts/spades buy-ins is going to have a massive effect over time to people sitting on the ships.

This is my argument, cap all or none. If money moving to easy was an issue a rake was a great idea yet only hits one part of the game that has gambling and should affect all gambling.

This wager should have aPoe Sink in the form of a rake as well.

High-level carousing has been around at least since 2004, I have to imagine it started before 2004. You can't compare Poker wagering to SF/Rumble/TD wagering, because we're talking about large tables, not heads-up (which is what SF/Rumble/TD are). And you can't compare Poker to Spades because the most you're going to win is half the pot. The issue with poker is that too many pirates see it as the quick and easy way to build wealth, so they go put together their 20,000 eights, jump on a table, go all-in, along with the other 7-9 pirates trying to do the same thing, then 1 person lucks out and wins 7-9x their buy-in. It's mass movement of eights well beyond the scale of what high-end SF/Rumble/TD/Spades/Hearts is.

I personally believe you are playing it in the manner anticipated. But too much of the beginner-midrange player-base is not.
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Posted by jdl1963 at Sep 22, 2017 8:21:08 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.


This. Poker changed the game forever - and not in a good way.

Posted by xelto at Sep 22, 2017 1:31:53 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.

Speaking as someone who finds poker incredibly boring, and refuses to play it in any form: it did fill one gap the game needs—a group activity that a person can get into and out of in a hurry; something to fill the time while waiting for a ship to sail or a hearty to log on.

If poker ever leaves the game, it needs something to replace it, that fills that gap. Something like liar's dice/pirates dice, with rules modified to allow easy entrance and exit from the game.
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Posted by GreatBob at Sep 22, 2017 1:58:21 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
 
There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.

Speaking as someone who finds poker incredibly boring, and refuses to play it in any form: it did fill one gap the game needs?a group activity that a person can get into and out of in a hurry; something to fill the time while waiting for a ship to sail or a hearty to log on.

If poker ever leaves the game, it needs something to replace it, that fills that gap. Something like liar's dice/pirates dice, with rules modified to allow easy entrance and exit from the game.

I have no problem with poker, nor do I think it's vastly out of place here. Gambling with cards was popular in the time period, so if hearts and spades are kosher, why not poker.

The issue is the massive redistribution of PoE it allows for, especially with the come and go format. Other games allow for high wagers, but there is a winner and loser, plus a definitive end. With poker the money usually comes from many other players, lowering individual risk. In SF, gaining 100k means someone else lost 100k. With poker, gaining 100k could be 5 people that lost 20k, or any other distribution you care to imagine.
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Posted by wrestle691 at Oct 5, 2017 9:27:30 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
The rake is one of the only continuous and significant poe sinks, look at some of the old dead oceans and you will see inflation run rampant.

Honestly 200k tables would be fine with a 5% rake and would do a ton of great things for the economy. A 5% rake (on bets for some strange reason also) is extremely harsh and makes playing poker as a sole source of income a losing prospect long term.

You keep speaking like have money move around is a bad thing when actually it gets people buying dubs (lowering dub price) takes poe out of the economy (lowering dub price) and helps fund larger scale activities and events.

Unsanctioned or private poker games can/will go on for high stakes, perhaps at a 200 table with each poe representing 1k in a house with a chest for deposits. People could use a 3rd party program after depositing with someone running it. People could go to the casino and play poker with money they woulda bought in for dubs. At least having the option for 200k poker in game with rake would prevent some of that from happening.

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 5, 2017 12:10:40 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
Honestly 200k tables would be fine with a 5% rake and would do a ton of great things for the economy.


Such as?

 
A 5% rake (on bets for some strange reason also) is extremely harsh and makes playing poker as a sole source of income a losing prospect long term.


And that's a Good Thing indeed, the game is called Puzzle Pirates and not Mississippi Cardshark for a reason. This goes double for Obsidian where the focus in PvP at sea. On the old oceans, poker had an almost immediate and detrimental impact on the game as more and more people took to playing the tables rather than going to sea. (Or even standing around docktarting.)

 
You keep speaking like have money move around is a bad thing when actually it gets people buying dubs (lowering dub price) takes poe out of the economy (lowering dub price) and helps fund larger scale activities and events.


The problem isn't money moving around - the problem is players sitting around. The former is a good thing (and already happens with shops and merchanting), the latter is definitely not good for long term health of the game.

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 5, 2017 12:15:35 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
 
Honestly 200k tables would be fine with a 5% rake and would do a ton of great things for the economy.


Such as?

They're saying that the rake would be a functional (and, at that scale, significant) money sink. On the other servers, the only money sinks that I'm aware of are sinking ships and items dusting, right?

Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 5, 2017 12:24:35 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
Ypedia, Poe Sinks says,
 
Sales taxes paid when purchasing items from a shoppe or stall.
War chests (note that if a defender wins, they get a portion of all war chests for a blockade)
Brigands taking PoE from your ship in combat.
Taxes on selling doubloons.
Fees paid for market bidding.
Charts bought from shipyards.
Familiar auctions, and fees for special Ocean Master or Ringer services.
Booty removed by the black ship.
Buying commodities from merchants.
Buying any type of housing.
Buying gems from a commodities market.
Buying ships from Ringer owned shipyards or palace shoppes. (new oceans only)
Buying cannon balls from Ringer owned palaces via the commodities market. (new oceans only)
Buying portraits using an easel.
Buying trinkets or pets from the palace shoppe.
The rake in Poker on the Obsidian Ocean.
PoE belonging to deleted pirates.
Throwing a party.
Ships abandoned at sea.[1]
Paying NPPs and wagers lost to NPPs

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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 5, 2017 12:50:26 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
Fair enough, but most of those are relatively small in comparison.

Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 5, 2017 12:58:02 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
Fair enough, but most of those are relatively small in comparison.

Absolutely you can see the result on the other oceans. While we hate them when we have to pay them they are needed to keep down the inflation. I am all for a rake on all gambling as well as increasing the poker amount so we have larger more frequent poe sinks.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 5, 2017 4:18:34 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
 
 
Honestly 200k tables would be fine with a 5% rake and would do a ton of great things for the economy.


Such as?

They're saying that the rake would be a functional (and, at that scale, significant) money sink. On the other servers, the only money sinks that I'm aware of are sinking ships and items dusting, right?


Maybe, maybe not. I'm awaiting the original poster's clarification, because "would create a money sink" and "would do great things for the economy" don't mean quite the same thing. Unless you're indulging in nonspecific and meaningless hyperbole for the purpose of promoting something, which abuse of the language is sadly common on the 'net.

But discussing the rake is orthogonal to the real issue - which is preventing poker from becoming a drag on the larger game. Large pots are a step backwards in that respect.

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 5, 2017 4:30:58 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
 
 
 
Honestly 200k tables would be fine with a 5% rake and would do a ton of great things for the economy.


Such as?

They're saying that the rake would be a functional (and, at that scale, significant) money sink. On the other servers, the only money sinks that I'm aware of are sinking ships and items dusting, right?


Maybe, maybe not. I'm awaiting the original poster's clarification, because "would create a money sink" and "would do great things for the economy" don't mean quite the same thing. Unless you're indulging in nonspecific and meaningless hyperbole for the purpose of promoting something, which abuse of the language is sadly common on the 'net.

I don't think it's hyperbolic or nonspecific at all, given that his previous sentence was specifically discussing the problem of inflation on older oceans.

 
But discussing the rake is orthogonal to the real issue - which is preventing poker from becoming a drag on the larger game. Large pots are a step backwards in that respect.

Poker has been in YPP for eleven and a half years now. I seem to remember people making similar doom-and-gloom comments about the effects of poker on the overall game then, too, but it's still here, and survived longer than plenty of other MMOs. If anything is hyperbolic here, it's the woeful talk about poker's negative effects on the game.

Posted by wrs1864b at Oct 5, 2017 4:35:39 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
Fair enough, but most of those are relatively small in comparison.

You said most, but the ones that aren't relatively small make poker's rake relatively small. In particular, a very large percentage of the PoE you use to buy stuff from stores get sunk either bjying the commodities, the sales tax or the rent. Sales tax is near 10%, after all. Also, the fees on the dub exchange happens a lot. While the poker rake is quite noticeable to poker players, they don't make up a huge percentage of the population, but just about everyone buys stuff from shops and uses the dub exchange.
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Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 5, 2017 5:44:01 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
You said most, but the ones that aren't relatively small make poker's rake relatively small. In particular, a very large percentage of the PoE you use to buy stuff from stores get sunk either bjying the commodities, the sales tax or the rent. Sales tax is near 10%, after all. Also, the fees on the dub exchange happens a lot. While the poker rake is quite noticeable to poker players, they don't make up a huge percentage of the population, but just about everyone buys stuff from shops and uses the dub exchange.


WARNING DIRTY WORD
AOF Poker

200k buy in 10 players=2m pot 5% rake=100k poesink in one hand
Compair that to any other poe sinks. AOF goes on for 1 hour ish 30 hands played not all would be 100k sunk but in an hour it is reasonable to see 1m poe vanish from the game.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
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Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 6, 2017 11:45:31 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
I don't think it's hyperbolic or nonspecific at all, given that his previous sentence was specifically discussing the problem of inflation on older oceans.


Of course you don't. You also believe that two very different statements ("would do a ton of great things for the economy" and "would create a money sink") mean the same thing.

 
Poker has been in YPP for eleven and a half years now. I seem to remember people making similar doom-and-gloom comments about the effects of poker on the overall game then, too, but it's still here, and survived longer than plenty of other MMOs. If anything is hyperbolic here, it's the woeful talk about poker's negative effects on the game.


That the game has survived has precisely nothing to do with the comments on poker - because nobody said the game wouldn't survive. Again, nonspecific hyperbole.

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 7, 2017 12:09:38 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
Is there a point to your blathering here, or are you just trying to score some imaginary forum points in your "dissecting" of others' posts?

I mean, what I said isn't what you're trying to claim I said. I can see how you squint to get there, but it's not what I was saying. So stop with the trollish nonsense, and actually make a point.

Let me help you get something in motion. You made a vague, half-assed assertion that poker was... how did you put it? Oh, here:

 
But discussing the rake is orthogonal to the real issue - which is preventing poker from becoming a drag on the larger game. Large pots are a step backwards in that respect.


Poker's been around in the game long enough that if it were going to become a drag on the larger game, it would have already done so. People have been tarting about it for as long as it's been around, and yet people still go out and do pillages day in and day out.

How would you gauge this "drag" in the first place? How would you be sure it's poker causing it, and not some other facet of the game? Or are you just making an argument by vigorous assertion here, and assuming that by begging the question, people will somehow agree that's the problem?

Posted by Cutingchris at Oct 7, 2017 4:26:33 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
I hate poker for the simple reason that it's completely boring. Like honestly when I play it, it's usually just with a friend to have a laugh. While it's fun when you win big, most of the time, you're sitting for about 2 hours and in that time only playing 2/3 hands. My problem with poker isn't that it's "piratey," it's that people would choose the boring option because poe.

I'm guessing they released it on Obsidian for the simple fact that some players had built all this money yet refuse to spend it on a ship/stock because of the PVP aspect. Seems kinda conspiracy theory-esque but I honestly think it's a bad idea raising the stakes for poker.

A rake doesn't seem fair, like someone posted before, it doesn't work like a casino or any real money based poker system. For me there should be a time limit, similar to a labor badge, for how long people can spend on these games. While it seems harsh and I'm being cruel to the pirates who play SF unhealthy-ly, it's the only way both sides could win in terms of having carousel puzzles there, but people aren't spending all their time playing poker on a game based on puzzling

I admit, PP's poker is very well done for a mini-game, but it's not fair on us who like to do voyages, yet get no jobbers because people would rather sit on poker for hours.
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Magneto - Emerald

Cutingchris - Meridian Malachite (will never be forgotten)

Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 7, 2017 5:16:20 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
I admit, PP's poker is very well done for a mini-game, but it's not fair on us who like to do voyages, yet get no jobbers because people would rather sit on poker for hours


So its not fair we do what we want because you can't get jobbers.... Ok, I often sit on the dock now playing poker on WSoP as I find puzzling for hours and hours boring. I puzzle for 3-6 hours on many days (weekends) so if I wish to poker a bit why not.

Honestly not having the high stakes table is a turn off for me, and while I play a lot I have been finding the the game a little boring as I don't have the time fill when I am watching a movie or other things that interfere with my attention so I chose not to jump on a ship and play poorly. I guess I can with an alt, I will look for pillages of the poker hatters and hit some nice fines... or just laze and straight line.

I also don't SMH in HS' or Lantis much as well filling the ship requires a time fill like poker, as I won't buy the parlor badge until they restore the poker stakes I am limited to 2 days a week. SF for an hour or two is also boring in my opinion.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by BehindCurtai at Oct 7, 2017 8:09:55 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
Quick idea: What if all the money that was "sunk" via this poe sink was put into the brigand loot table as bonus pillaging payout?
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"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
Why buy sham poo when real poo is so readily available


Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 7, 2017 8:44:51 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
Quick idea: What if all the money that was "sunk" via this poe sink was put into the brigand loot table as bonus pillaging payout?


A poe sink is meant to remove money from the game not increase other pay outs to keep inflation in check.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by BehindCurtai at Oct 7, 2017 10:09:23 AM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
But why have a poe sink on poker?

Having a fee to play poker doesn't mean it has to be sunk.
If people complain that poker makes pillaging less desirable, this would just result in pillaging becoming more desirable.
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"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
Why buy sham poo when real poo is so readily available


Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 7, 2017 6:23:59 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
 
A rake doesn't seem fair, like someone posted before, it doesn't work like a casino or any real money based poker system.


The rake functions in essentially the same way it does in real life - it takes money from the players and gives it to the house. In this case, it's a hand-wavy amount between what is free-to-play funds (since it's PoE, not Dubs), and what will be "re-bought" by buying Dubs and selling them for PoE. But it's very much like a real-world casino or virtual poker site, just a step removed.

Fundamentally, though, all PoE in the system are generated by playing games, and all Dubs in the game are generated by people spending real-world money. The two are linked inextricably.

 
I admit, PP's poker is very well done for a mini-game, but it's not fair on us who like to do voyages, yet get no jobbers because people would rather sit on poker for hours.

This is assuming things that simply aren't true. On "Free" days, Poker gets a few dozen players at peak. On "Badge-only" days, it gets two or three tables. When we're talking about 800+ players on a day*, it's not Poker that is getting in the way of your Pillages.

* At this very moment (a "Badge" day), there's just under 600 people on Obsidian (judged by looking here), and 25 people playing Poker (judged by looking at the Parlor Games list). That's less than 5% of the player base.

Edit: And if you find it personally boring, then fine, don't play it, but don't s**t on the people who do enjoy it.

Edit2: Clarifying and fixing UBB code.

Posted by Jcmorgan6 at Oct 7, 2017 8:59:36 PM
Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
Nek0jin wrote: 

* At this very moment (a "Badge" day), there's just under 600 people on Obsidian (judged by looking here), and 25 people playing Poker (judged by looking at the Parlor Games list). That's less than 5% of the player base.


You fail to form a valid argument here if you don't compare it to a standard ocean because you overlook the most important factor (while simultaneously discussing it?!?!?!), which is that less people poker on Obsidian BECAUSE it doesn't have 20-200k tables.

Take Emerald as of my posting.
38/201 = 18%.
(note obsidian is 29/609 or 4.7%, just to remove one independent variable, time of day)

So we can expect 13% more people to be pokering if we introduce 200k tables?

Admittedly, since I'd like to try and be a little less biased, I can acknowledge that there are multiple other reasons that would influence the number of people playing poker across oceans, however I still believe 20-200k is the prime factor;
  • Large ships rarely filling for SMH on Emerald (I /w'd all my hearties, admittedly not the best sample since I only really do Cursed Isles, but there was only one large ship out on Obsidian with 44 players, and none on Emerald)
  • Blockades being active (half-true, since people would still be saving funds)
  • "Old money" - People have had a long time to earn PoE and already own everything they desire. (Minimal amount of people probably poker for this reason)

    Nek0jin wrote: 
    jdl1963 wrote: 
    But discussing the rake is orthogonal to the real issue - which is preventing poker from becoming a drag on the larger game. Large pots are a step backwards in that respect.


    Poker has been in YPP for eleven and a half years now. I seem to remember people making similar doom-and-gloom comments about the effects of poker on the overall game then, too, but it's still here, and survived longer than plenty of other MMOs. If anything is hyperbolic here, it's the woeful talk about poker's negative effects on the game.


    The main issue of poker for me is that it rewards people who don't puzzle, specifically the large sums you can earn in very short time periods. Blockades are a huge part of the game, which on Emerald/Meridian were funded almost entirely by poker funds (SF wagers too of course). We do not want this to be the case on Obsidian.

    The ideal is multiple flag members working together for a blockade, not one poker player who can sit at six 20-200k tables at once - or the player who sits on an AoF table all day and plays more cautiously than the others. This is why Jdl1963's point is so valid.

    I'd reply to more of what you wrote, but I'd be wasting my time, since you'd continue to push your agenda while wearing rose tinted spectacles. I will however let you know, to further what Algol wrote,
    wrs1864b wrote: 
    You said most, but the ones that aren't relatively small make poker's rake relatively small
    that although Filthyjake didn't quote the PoE sinks list exactly he missed out an incredibly large one, Black boxes (presumably since there is no Black Market yet, but it's still equally valid). If you count all black ravens and skeletal monkeys on Emerald and multiply by 50 million (Expected PoE spent per Familiar, given the chance of one)... you will get a very large number.
    ----------------------------------------
    Jjc & Jice on Emerald
    CI booty division stats

  • Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 7, 2017 11:46:20 PM
    Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
     
    I'd reply to more of what you wrote, but I'd be wasting my time, since you'd continue to push your agenda while wearing rose tinted spectacles.

    See, that's the problem with this entire conversation. I'm not pushing an agenda. I'm not asking that the Obsidian Poker limit be raised (or lowered, or new "entry fees" be added, or the Rake raised or lowered, or anything else along those lines). I'm not asking anything at all here. I'm just pointing out problems in others' arguments.

    How you see that as "pushing an agenda" baffles me.

    Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 9, 2017 3:02:26 PM
    Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
    Moved from here


     
     
    How specifically has the game poker killed the ocean.

    No-cap tables made all the money flow around inside inns, but not outside them. Pirates hoarded money to play poker. No ships sailed, no one could job, money stood dockside barely ever leaving the poker tables. Blockades were funded on poker. Doubloons started inflating. People stopped buying doubloons, people stopped buying items, economy kept ballooning, people stopped playing. I think we all know this. Also, if you asked anypirate at the time they'd say that to make money you'd have to play poker, no exceptions.


    The money is still flowing through the inn they increased the pay on pillages and add a rake to poker to offset. Sounds like poor design fixed not the card games fault, like I said if they don't rake the other forms of gambling it will just move to hearts or sf or pick one. Now its AOF all day on 20k tables not poker cause most anyone can lose 20k and they play way more lose. I made my fist Million before ever playing poker I did so on ships. I love poker as a pass time I play it that way instead people stand on the dock merching and trading to make money I hate that part so I poker when I don't puzzle Just got off 2 hr pillage would go sit at table but don't like aof and hate folding pair of 10 while morons go all in with 3 8 off suit. So instead I am hear, then I go to other games and play them instead not sure how that helps the game by not appealing to the player base.

     
    I know you are trying to be ironic and such, but honestly, why'd you retort that. We all know shops produce goods from commodities and when properly managed are a boon to the economy.


    They are not piratey or on the seas. Poker in my opinion are good for the economy. Especially with a rake as a Poe Sink, High stakes tables would eat so much poe it could prevent/reduce inflation. Now people play high stakes at private tables with no rakes, they just bypass the game mechanics and pay each other. Opening up people to theft/scams.

    Again any thing that doesn't allow people to play the way they want is telling them how to play. I like a balance of poker and pillage, with a side of shop keeping. Just like some don't like the rotating maps I don't like the low stakes poker. To each there own, the game needs inflation control to last poe sinks like rakes are a great way to do this, the increased payouts on the ocean are now competitive to pull people out. Pillages used to be over looked as everyone watned to smh as it paid better now you average 10-30k an hour on any of it depending on the wins/losses/ect.... that's much nicer then a few years ago, perhaps the issue wasn't poker but the poor pay outside of the inn.
    ----------------------------------------
    Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
    Filthyjake6145 (discord)
    ?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
    Casual player or yet another who moved on.

    Posted by Scarpath at Oct 9, 2017 4:42:33 PM
    Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
    Okay, a player should be able to play poker because its fun, and it's a part of YPP now, whether you like it or not.(I've never been a fan of it myself, but I've never really hated on it like many do.)

    Without the 2k-20k tables, no one found it worth their time to play poker, and those that did didn't play to the usual strategy that made it 'fun'. With the 20k-200k tables, many players start to play because it's a good way to fund a blockade or earn money quick, not because they enjoy it.

    I think more of the problem with poker is the negative attitude many bring to the table. Just remember folks, its a GAME. If you don't want to risk losing all of your in game currency, than don't play it. Otherwise, just bring a happy attitude and give the changes that the OMs have made a try. All of this anger will only upset everyone.
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    Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian!

    Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core.

    Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent!

    Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 9, 2017 5:27:03 PM
    Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian
    "Never gamble what you can't afford to lose."

    I've said elsewhere that I'm a former Vegas Blackjack dealer, and that line above is just as true for PoE as it is for $$$.

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