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garf



Joined: Jun 17, 2003
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sword patterns examined Reply to this Post
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Most of this is outdated now!


first, some references:

the pattens of all swords currently in the game:
http://www.madmutineers.com/viewtopic.php?t=65&

a nice explanation of how the patterns work:
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=670

a big thanks to hethor for most of the information gathered.

some of the information seems outdated (it seems clear now that combos only multiply the parts that break later, not everything), some information still isnt known (what determines where exactly a sword drops?), but i think there is enough detail known to analyse the sword patterns a bit.

also, im not entirely sure about the coloring of horizontal swords. it seems as if they would actually use the pattern and not a "one row, then stack it" thing like vertical swords do. so the comments about horizontal swords are to be taken with a grain of salt.

so what makes a sword pattern good?

well, what hurts you most when building up yourself? many colors mixing.
since there are two kinds of totally different drop - swords and sprinkles, a good sword pattern will a) create sprinkles that use many different colors, b) swords that contain a lot of different colors and no long series of one color, c) sprinkle colors and the colors of sword drops are different in the same column. for the sprinkles, i will only account to the lowest row in most cases, as that is what ye get in most cases. the rare mass sprinkle experts surely know more than me, anyway. ;)

in my opinion, the devs did a good job of creating balanced swords. there simply is no "best" sword right now, even though some are surely stronger than others.

a look at all the swords in the light of this:


- cutlass

a) sprinkles like the foil, 3 different colors in blocks of two. about average.

b) all vertical swords will consists of two different colors in two blocks (three blocks can happen for larger swords). that seems slightly above average, but definitely not very strong. the horizontal swords dont look too nasty.

c) the sprinkle colors are plenty in the swords in the same area. only exception would be 3-wide swords at the left side, but they seem rare.

d) summary: an exception from the balance, this sword seems rather weak to me.


- dirk

a) nice sprinkles. uses 4 colors, 2 of them in blocks of 2, the others only in 1 block.

b) swords that include the leftmost column and 1-wide swords on the rightmost column will be of 1 color only. the other swords are two-color, and some will have the two colors in 3 blocks (abba vertically). horizontal swords dont look too nasty again. relatively weak swords here.

c) outer sprinkle colors are plenty in swords; inner sprinkle colors will always occur in swords (as in all 4-high swords)

d) a good sword for sprinkles, bad for swords, doesnt look very strong all together unless you are focusing on sprinkles


- falchion

a) average sprinkles, foil-like

b) very nice swords. all swords are two-color at least, swords that have their leftmost side on the second column will be 3-color, many 2 color swords will have them in three abba blocks. horizontal swords look average.

c) sprinkle colors will be in the swords, but not in large blocks and at most in half of the cases on the "right" side (bottom or top)

d) a well-rounded sword, possibly one of the strongest buyable in shops.


- foil

a) the definition for average sprinkles, 3 2-wide blocks of different colors.

b) decent swords, all swords of two colors, half of them (for 4-high swords) in 3 blocks.

c) sprinkle color makes half of the swords.

d) contrary to popular belief, not at all a bad swords. surely beats the cutlass, for example.


- long sword

a) standard foil-like sprinkles

b) lots of very different swords here. a few 1-colored 4-high swords, many different 2-color swords, and some of the 6-high swords (the inner ones) contain two colors, but in 4 different blocks. if horizontal swords really take a sheet of the pattern, they can be downright nasty.

c) sprinkle color is plenty in the swords.

d) a decent, fairly balanced sword.


- saber

a) not-so good sprinkles. 3 colors, but in blocks of 1, 2 and 3, the single color being in the middle where sprinkles are rare

b) bad swords. lots of one-color 4 high swords, maximum 2 color swords, mostly in only 2 blocks with swords that use the second from right column being the major exception. horizontal swords look average.

c) lots of sprinkle color on the right side swords, but on the left side, the sprinkle color is scarce. this might be usable in a decent mix of swords and sprinkles, but it is a one-side feature.

d) sub-par sword in my opinion. the only advantage it seems to have is that on one side, sprinkle color is rare in the swords. i doubt that that makes up for its drawbacks. i'd rather use a foil, me thinks


- scimitar

a) very uncommon sprinkles. a row of 5 of the same color and a single bit of second color. im not sure if this is very weak, though; laying covers of sprinkles demands breakers of always that color to get rid of them.

b) very good swords. all use two colors, many use three, and this pattern can even create a 4 high sword with 4 colors (even though its rare). horizontal swords look bad with lots of connected colors.

c) sprinkle color is fairly rare in swords, definitely above average in this category

d) i think this one of the best shop-buyable swords, even though the sprinkles look weak at the first glance.


- short sword

a) the best sprinkle sword around... 4 colors, and each column gets a different one than their neighbours.

b) possible the worst swords. the large majority of all swords will be one color. horizontal swords look good, though.

c) sprinkle color is more than plenty, for many columns even exclusively the same. bad.

d) the short sword can be a very deadly weapon, but only if you avoid swords as much as possible. considering that you need double mass breaking (or a higher combo) to get the same size (in number of pieces dropped) of the attack, this is only good for specialised players, me thinks.


- skull dagger (note that its pattern is updated and can be seen further down in that thread)

a) interesting sprinkles. with 3 colors in the pattern aabcaa, they dont seem very good - this can make it easy to connect left and right sides on yer opponents board which in turn leads to large strikes coming in.

b) very good swords.. no 1-color sword at all, and several 3 color 4 high swords. horizontal swords look average

c) sprinkle color is half of the swords on the outer sides, more on the inner.

d) despite a) and c) sounding not that good, the skull daggers sword belong to the best in the game. a very good sword for people not sprinkling much.


- stiletto

a) slightly better sprinkles than the foil with the two middle bits being of different color. that shouldnt make too much of a difference, though, since sprinkles are most common on the outer sides.

b) bad swords. the best swords the stiletto can create are foil-alike, but there are a lot of 1-color swords mixed in. horizontal swords ... well, average, me thinks

c) worse than the foil in the middle with all swords being of sprinkle color, same as foil on the outer sides.

d) another bad sword in my opinion.



thats it for the shop-buyable swords. cleaver, rapier and poinard are currently only obtainable from skellies and as such, hardly worth a detailed analysis. all of them do have decent to very good patterns, though.


bottom line:
cutlass, saber and stiletto seem worse than the foils ye start with to me, at least for the average mix of sword and sprinkle use. do they need help? or did i miss a major factor (possibly horizontal swords working completely different from what i assumed)?
----------------------------------------
- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by garf at Jul 26, 2003 1:27:47 AM]
[Jul 26, 2003 1:27:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Mugenn



Joined: Jul 27, 2003
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Re: sword patterns examined Reply to this Post
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Thanks that was exactally what I was looking for, sounds like the long sword is what I would be looking wantin'.

Although that cleaver sure looks mighty useful I may have to keep an eye out fer one.

Thanks matey!
----------------------------------------
-Mugen

"How much does it cost a pirate to get a piercing? A buck an ear!"
[Jul 30, 2003 9:10:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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aye, the cleaver sure looks like a very deadly blade. quite possibly the best there currently is, the only obvious weakness being that it can produce 1-color swords on the left side.
----------------------------------------
- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 30, 2003 10:15:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Docs error Reply to this Post
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I fixed the blue blue thing a while ago but somehow forgot to prop it to the server. It's green green now.
[Jul 31, 2003 3:12:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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What smallish changes do you think would make the cutlass and sabre more effective? I have some ideas of my own, and don't think they're as bad as you do, but I'm sure you'd be game for giving suggestions.

-Nemo

edit:
I just happened to glance back up here and wanted to clarify my scary dangling participle.
The things I "don't think are as bad as you do" are those two swords, not my ideas. Rereading my post with the improper interpretation makes it sounds very sarcastic and mean, which I would never want. I really was asking for what you thought would be better.
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-Avatar by AlexisAngel-
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Nemo at Jul 31, 2003 3:24:05 AM]
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Jethro



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I think the stilletto is better than the foil because even though its side distribution is the same as the foil, its sprinkly and sword distribution in the middle can quickly clog that up without producing sword sized rectangles.
----------------------------------------
Jethro - Officer of the Salty Mouthfuls
Jethykins - Cook of the Salty Mouthfuls and certainly not Jethro in drag. Oh no. Not at all. Nope.
[Jul 31, 2003 3:53:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    JGulner [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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In practice, I have found the stiletto to be better than the dirk.

I'm not convinced the cleaver is all that. a one-color sword on the left, a brutal sword next to that, and then foil-like swords afterwards. I like the three-color sprinkle, and that second-from-the-left sword is mean, but I think the poinard (sprinkler) and falchion (swords) may be the strongest of the rare swords right now.

I'd love to hear the opinions of some of the top-rated swords out there.

My current take on the swords:

I'm using the foil as the baseline for comparison. The foil is not a bad weapon. A good swordsman can beat a bad swordsman regardless of what each person is using. My belief is that some swords compliment some styles better than other swords do. I have been defeated by every sword out there

Ratings are from 1 to 10.

Vert Swords: How many colors, how many blocks, how big each block is--a measure of how much vertical swords sent over will hurt your opponent.
Horz Swords: a measure of how much horizontal swords sent over will hurt your opponent.
Small Sprinkles: the higher the score, the more "quilty" the sprinkle pattern at the bottom. "Small sprinkles" are two rows or less. High "small sprinkle" scores are good for putting pressure on an opponent nearly dead.
Large Sprinkles: "Large sprinkles" are more than two rows worth. If this score is high, then it will be more difficult for your opponent to dig out of a massive sprinkle attack.
Color Sparsity: This number is only lightly included in the overall score because I still don't really know what's better. When fighting NPPs, I think you want a low score here. When fighting players, a high score can be useful. The scimitar, king of this category, almost never sends one of the colors over.
Overall: A weighted average that reflects my opinion on the relative strengths of the swords.

Cutlass:
3 Vert Swords
2 Horz Swords
5 Small Sprinkles
3 Large Sprinkles
5 Color Sparsity
3 Overall

Cleaver:
5 Vert Swords
6 Horz Swords
6 Small Sprinkles
8 Large Sprinkles
7 Color Sparsity
6 Overall

Dirk:
3 Vert Swords
2 Horz Swords
4 Small Sprinkles
6 Large Sprinkles
4 Color Sparsity
3 Overall

Falchion:
7 Vert Swords
7 Horz Swords
5 Small Sprinkles
6 Large Sprinkles
8 Color Sparsity
7 Overall

Foil:
5 Vert Swords
5 Horz Swords
5 Small Sprinkles
5 Large Sprinkles
5 Color Sparsity
5 Overall

Longsword:
6 Vert Swords
7 Horz Swords
5 Small Sprinkles
6 Large Sprinkles
5 Color Sparsity
6 Overall

Poinard:
4 Vert Swords
6 Horz Swords
7 Small Sprinkles
4 Large Sprinkles
3 Color Sparsity
6 Overall

Rapier:
5 Vert Swords
6 Horz Swords
6 Small Sprinkles
4 Large Sprinkles
3 Color Sparsity
5 Overall

Saber:
3 Vert Swords
5 Horz Swords
4 Small Sprinkles
4 Large Sprinkles
4 Color Sparsity
4 Overall

Scimitar:
8 Vert Swords
4 Horz Swords
3 Small Sprinkles
6 Large Sprinkles
9 Color Sparsity
6 Overall

Short Sword:
1 Vert Swords
6 Horz Swords
8 Small Sprinkles
4 Large Sprinkles
2 Color Sparsity
6 Overall

Skull Dagger:
7 Vert Swords
6 Horz Swords
4 Small Sprinkles
6 Large Sprinkles
6 Color Sparsity
6 Overall

Stiletto:
4 Vert Swords
5 Horz Swords
6 Small Sprinkles
5 Large Sprinkles
4 Color Sparsity
5 Overall
----------------------------------------
-Hethor
[Jul 31, 2003 4:02:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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cleaver - err? blue-blue is green-green now? sorry, i got totally lost there. by the way.. any chance we can get the color blocks as "emoticons" added like on the mutineers site?


nemo - arr, i have spent some thought on this. the obvious problem here is that even small changes can make a sword a lot more powerfull. maybe it would be helpfull to know where you see the advantages of cutlass and saber?

the cutlass as it currently is:


abbbcc
bbbadd
bbaadd
baaadd
aaabcc
aabbcc


what small change would make this stronger? well, lets see. the problem so far is that all vertical swords by the cutlass are of the structure "aaabbb".

that means that 4-high swords never contain more than two different colorblocks, while even the foil creates three in half the swords. so what the cutlass needs is stronger swords (as it obviously isnt meant to be a powerfull sprinkler). what about this:


abbbdd
bbbadd
bbaabb
baaabb
aaabcc
aabbcc


the left side is unchanged and still weak, but the right side would now create a lot of 3-color 4 high swords. it would also make color d and color c very scarce. considering that for fights versus npps, only the color distribution counts, this might make the cutlass pretty weak versus them, but it probably would help it a lot in player versus player fights.


and the saber.. current looks:


aaabbc
aadbcc
aadbbc
addbbc
addbcc
dddbcc


the problem here is that almost all swrods are weak, and so are the sprinkles.

since ive always wanted to see a sword that has a strong sprinkle side and a strong sword side, how about this:


daabbc
aadbcc
aadbbc
addbbd
addbcd
addbcc


this would make for fairly nasty small sprinkle attacks, and the right side would produce average to good swords, while the left side still has weak swords. it would also make horizontal swords fairly nasty due to the lone "dd" part on the right. maybe that dd part even is too much, so that one could leave the right side as it is and only do the "flip" of the left side. this would look like this:


daabbc
aadbcc
aadbbc
addbbc
addbcc
addbcc


hmm. i have to admit it doesnt look very nice and organised anymore after those changes.

what do ye think of these?


on the stiletto versus dirk.. aye, ye may be right that the stiletto is actually foil-strength, not below, while the dirk is weaker.

the cleaver, however, does look nasty to me. the sprinkles are strong, only one weak sword, one very strong to make up for it, horizontal swords dont look exactly nice either. i do see that blade up there with the best.


hethor - arr, nice analysis there... and it seems that we agree on most of the blades.

however... how do ye get a sub-average score for small sprinkles on the dirk? that really escapes me. more colors than on foil, 2 of them in 1-wide rows. i would certainly score a 6-7 there.
----------------------------------------
- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 31, 2003 10:32:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
uzi



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Any way you slice it, the people who post these things on swords are very sharp.

I enjoy reading about swords. Thanks to everyone who takes the time to do the testing and reporting.

You are a cut above the rest!
----------------------------------------
Still hanging 10 through life and looking for the endless summmer.
[Aug 1, 2003 1:43:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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First: the dirk.
I don't give points for a four-color sprinkle, only the arrangment of the colors. Having all four colors in the sprinkle means you can use every color; there's no hard-to-get color.

So, why do I think the arrangment is weaker? Recall that building lots of connected swords is more powerful than one giant sword. The foil tends to build giant swords with its sprinkle, the dirk tends to make lots of connected small swords.

Thus the sub-par sprinkle rating.

I can't really follow the letters, so I'm posting this as much to see it in color as anything else.

The cutlass:
Current:
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]

Garf's Proposed:
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
This is an interesting proposal, and definitely strengthens the sword a bit. I like this proposal a lot.

Alternative:
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
If we just swap those two colors at the bottom... yikes! This is perhaps too powerful.



The saber:
Current:
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]

Garf's Proposed:
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]

Better, but I still wouldn't use it. 1x4 - 2x6 are my most common swords, and too many of them are still 90% one color for me to call this a swords sword. I like the idea to flip the leftmost row.

Alternative:
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]
[size=9]

So instead of adding some blue on the right, this does a rotate of the top part of the pattern to add more colors to the swords, and then fixes it up so the colors stay fairly connected like the old saber used to be, and preserves some of the sword properties on the right.

This is hard.
----------------------------------------
-Hethor
[Aug 1, 2003 5:18:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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nice! (*)

about the dirk... hm. i cant see that from the pattern, and i actually tend to take care of separating the blocks meself. also, i havent fought exactly man dirks, so maybe something in its use escapes me.

about yer alternative suggestions:

whoa. yer cutlass looks like a rather powerfull weapon. it would boost it far higher than my suggestion for sure. however, i also think it wouldnt be unbalancingly good.. and i would actually consider using it, while i probably would stick with me scimitar even if my suggestion was used.

so i guess it depends on what is wanted.. give it a small improvement or a large... since nemo stated he doesnt find the original so weak, maybe we're missing something.

its quite similar for your saber. also a good suggestion, and likely a larger improvement over the original.

i guess i would like to see some of these in the game.

one thing i noticed... both of your suggestions make the pattern create several 3-color swords, while of the current ingame swords with 6-high patterns only the scimitar will create 3-color swords. it would be interesting to hear their creators thoughts on making some of the blades 6-high and some 4-high. i would imagine that the larger swords were originally supposed to be better, but their current patterns make them actually look weaker. maybe they were planned with a different "pattern to sword" process in mind?



(*) how did ye do that? take me alphabetic chaos and search and replace with the image links?
----------------------------------------
- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Aug 1, 2003 8:55:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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I just manually for every block. The post was mighty. I second your request for the sword emoticons!

One of my problems with my cutlass suggestion is that the cutlass is a mid-class sword (using only one mineral and skilled labor instead of excellent labor) so I'm leary to power it up to the level of the scimitar or saber. It should be on par with the longsword and shortsword. Your suggestion is much more appropriate, but I'd also be ok leaving this one alone if Nemo thinks it's adequate.

The one I really feel needs some love is the saber, since it's in the top tier of swords but seems like it's more on par with the 200-poe swords. I really did change the pattern quite a bit in my suggestion, but I think I stuck to the original theme of mostly-veritcal bars of color (compare to the scimitar's mostly horizontal bands of color.) I'd be willing to believe I powered it up too much. I already made the pattern not symmetric just to avoid another three-color sword in the pattern.
----------------------------------------
-Hethor
[Aug 1, 2003 10:01:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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aye.. if taking the price into account, i'd think that my suggestion would be more appropriate. and of course its up to the devs to decide if the cutlass really needs some help - but i surely would like to hear what aspect im missing on that blade.


about your saber.. im not sure if it would be too powerfull for a top sword. it would be unique in that it both has strong sprinkles and many strong swords. but then, none of the expensive weapons currently have strong sprinkles at all. lets have a look at those swords:

4-high swords from left to right:
2-color 2-block swords
half 2-color 2 block, half 3-color 3-block
2-color 2-block
half 2-color 2 block, half 3-color 3-block
2-color up to 4 blocks
2-color 2 block

that seems very powerfull to me.

compare to the falchion:
2-color swords, half of them 3-block, half of them 2-block
3-color swords, up to 4 block
2-color swords, half of them 3-block, half of them 2-block for all other columns.

i would say yer saber is right up there with the falchion (if not better!) - but it has far nastier sprinkles.
----------------------------------------
- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Aug 3, 2003 6:14:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Wonderful, wonderful analysis, mates.

I agree with your revised thoughts about the two blades in major question. It's definitely the saber that needs power. I like the cutlass changes and will likely implement the less potent revision; that looks really nice.

The saber comments in the last two posts are almost exactly what I was thinking when I read the ones before. The saber should be a top-tier blade. What makes a top-tier blade is very strong swords and less of a reliance on sprinkles.
Garf's saber proposal is nice and I'd have to see it used to really judge. Hethor's proposal seems more intuitive (for both attacker and defender) but does seem to power up those sprinkles too much. You see how dramatically even small changes affect a sword's performance. It'd be nice to see a saber pattern with Hethor's aesthetic but about the level of Garf's proposal (if a little bit tougher).

It is the greatest feeling to see that our sword-makers are discussing blade constuction and technique in our "simple" game with more complexity and authenticity than crafters in the other, more "realistic" games. Ha har!

-Nemo
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-Avatar by AlexisAngel-
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crowsdiamond

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OMG!!! Reply to this Post
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*picks her jaw up off the keyboard where it fell slowly while reading this* You people have WAY too much time on your hands... how the heck do you do anything but play??? Sheesh!!! Thanks for doing it though... I have improved upon my game to the extent that I no longer qualify (I think) for the Greenhorne tournament!! WOOOHOOO!! *grin*
----------------------------------------
~Faile
Once Captain of the Mighty PPA
Once Captain of the Falcon's Fury
Now Unretired and ready to KILL!!

Just point me to what you want dead, an' I'll kill it. Or die trying!
[Aug 3, 2003 8:34:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Crowsdiamond [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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Just changing the lower-left brick from red to blue (like the original has it) would weaken the sprinkles a good bit.
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-Hethor
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Aur

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The one the wasn't discussed but I just had a nasty first introduction to was the poinard. I can't even believe how powerful this sword is and I can't imagine why anyone would want anything other than it. The person didn't really sprinkle me or drop big stuff or really give any 'wow' type drops, but I was handled thoroughly. Nothing is connected. You can't send back anything. I was breaking singles from almost the beginning and I am normally pretty good.


I know that they are extremely rare and I personally don't know how to get one, but I am thinking once they become more common, that's all anyone will have. Every single pirate will have a poinard. It's going to happen. I don't think will be something we want. It's nice to have variety and people trying to find the 'best' sword for them. Not everyone having the one 'best' sword.

The other alternative would be only a select few having these swords or a certain group controlling how to obtain them. That would create a have and have-not scenario I though the game design was trying to avoid.
----------------------------------------
~Aur
Original Riot Starter

"So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. The other half is HWFO." -Hermes
[Aug 4, 2003 4:00:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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Re: sword patterns examined Reply to this Post
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nemo: thanks for the kind words. (*)

hethor - aye, that would help with the sprinkles, and with two 2-color sword columns it probably would still be in line with the other top-blades (scimitar has no 2-color swords, but weaker sprinkles, and so on).

i came up with another one, but havent analysed it thoroughly yet. wanna see how it looks in color first..

how about this one for a saber?


cccddb
ccddab
cddaab
cdaabb
caabbc
aaabcc



or in color (search and replace seems bearable, but ... sword emoticons? pretty please?):









diamond - there is something other than the game? where? and what puzzles does it have?

aur - are you sure you fought blades like scimitars or skull daggers yet? or even a short sword, if it was the sprinkles that were iritating to you? the poinard surely is a powerfull blade, but its not what you're saying. in fact, i doubt i would permanently use one over me scimitar - the poinards swords are definitively weaker than the scimitars. that is, if the pattern shown at the mutineers is still correct, of course.




(*)does that "crafter" comment mean im going to get an iron monger? because right now, im far from owning one. ;)
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Aug 4, 2003 5:27:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Aur

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Oh I've fought all the swords I'm sure now. I usually hover around grandmaster ranks. I've beaten ultimates with falchions. I recently fought one of my officers who just got him a new scimitar and beat him every time even though we're usually even. With every sword it seems, that you at least have some chance. Some chance to send back combinations from what the other person sends. Except for a lot of red stones that the poinard sends back, nothing else joined up. It was like breaking singles the entire match.

The person I was fighting was Legendary, but that's never been a problem for me before. I can usually at least take one out of three from anyone. This was just wildly insane and how disconnected the sprinkles were from the other person.


Maybe it was just bad luck, but I have never been at the mercy of another person's pattern before like that. It was very odd and I think she understood how overpowering that sword was. She was beating everyone in the circle. Very odd.

I was just wondering what people's thoughts were on that sword. Maybe I am just mistaken. I hope I am because having such an vastly superior sword in the game would not be fun.
----------------------------------------
~Aur
Original Riot Starter

"So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. The other half is HWFO." -Hermes
[Aug 4, 2003 6:58:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
akebia



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Re: sword patterns examined Reply to this Post
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Aur wrote: 
I was just wondering what people's thoughts were on that sword. Maybe I am just mistaken. I hope I am because having such an vastly superior sword in the game would not be fun.


When swords were introduced, I was one of the players gifted with a couple while everyone else had a foil. I'd done so much fighting that I could reliably say "I win one out of three fights with Ursela, as she hits super combos before I do when we're both about two-thirds full" and "I win three out of five with Silverbeard, but they're all painfully tense and close and come down to the wire". (Folks I know don't fight so much any more, as they're busy running shoppes and schools and errands
  • .)

    But, damn, the poinard is tough! Close fights with Silverbeard have become constant losses to Silverbeard since he got that weapon. I can still take him when he has a cleaver or other weapons, but the poinard is deadly.

    I don't know if it's sooo tough that a skillless fighter could beat me with it, but it's enough of an edge to unbalance ties.

    [*: ...as Aur knows. When I met him, he said I was the first swordfighter he'd met ranked above Grand-Master. And he's good. So, uh, what's going to get us Ultimates off our butts and fighting good newcomers again so that we can fairly stop being Ultimates?]
  • [Aug 4, 2003 7:47:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Aur

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    Yeah, the whole problem with not being able to find Ultimates or Legendaries to ever fight is quite the problem, but that's another story.


    I would love to run a true test on this, but there's no way to because I just can't seem to find any way to get a poinard or even two so that I can play against a good number of people each having varying swords to test this out.

    Right now, it seems people aren't really testing but trying to hold on hard to the ranks that they have. Maybe before midnight comes out there should be one last attempt to give everyone every sword and test this kind of thing out. Maybe even setup some kind of good incentive to get all the Ultimates in one area so that people can actually try to beat each other. Maybe some tournaments with rare things to give out.

    I don't see a way at the moment to test out this theory of whether the poinard is too powerful because, one, it is too scarce, and two, I can't find enough evenly skilled players to test this against.


    So it seems we have vast amounts of data to analyze about all the other swords, but no data whatsoever to analyze the poinard, this seems to me to be a problem since we are in a beta test environment.
    ----------------------------------------
    ~Aur
    Original Riot Starter

    "So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. The other half is HWFO." -Hermes
    [Aug 4, 2003 7:53:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Soma



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    well.. Reply to this Post
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    I personally don't think the poinard is a huge step above, though I do love mine greatly and it truely fits my playing style to a T. As I see it (as a former long sword user, who has now changed his build style to reflect the poinard) it's basically a combo of both short and long swords. It has deadly sprinkling prowess and if you learn to build your swords a bit uncommonly those are quite the threat as well. Basically, the poinard is a sword like no other which to be used effectively MUST be tailored to within your own play style. (as a side note, while before I aimed for crippling sword's, I now send giant showers of sprinkles coated in a a solid sword or two. This seems to incase any 'weaker' swords in a quilted pattern of disruption VERY nicely. The poinard is NOT only a sprinkler's delight.) All that said, it still does come down to the player's overall ability. While my main is armed with his poinard, I've still beaten a handful of very good (in both rank and reputation) fighters with my trusty old long sword. All in all, a sword doesn't make the man, the man makes the sword (replace woman as fitting, just had to make for a good quote).

    *edit: I won back my ranking at 4th by taking down a crewmate (who had achieved 3rd) several times with my alt, armed with his longsword. just thought it worth mentioning.
    ----------------------------------------
    Soma
    Castaway of Alpha
    Survivor of Old Spice & Nyx's Scions
    Officer of Black Death
    [Aug 4, 2003 10:32:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Livesey



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    Re: sword patterns examined Reply to this Post
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    The poinard is made for Silverbeard; he's the best example of a good sword complimenting an excellent swordsman. No one else I've fought that is using one is nearly so feirce with it. When he and I go at it with shortswords, he still wins most of the time, but when you remove the mono-color swords from the equation, I have a very hard time keeping up with him.
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    -Hethor
    [Aug 5, 2003 4:44:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Jota



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    Re: sword patterns examined Reply to this Post
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    Livesey wrote: 
    The poinard is made for Silverbeard; he's the best example of a good sword complimenting an excellent swordsman


    Poinard wrote: 
    Poinard says, "Great work, Silverbeard!"
    Poinard says, "Ye got 'im runnin' now, matey!"
    Poinard says, "Nice combo -- ye really know yer stuff."
    Poinard says, "I love th' way ye grip me hilt. Ye must ha' born wit' a sword in yer hand."
    Poinard says, "Kin we challenge that lass over there? I bet ye could win with one 'and tied behind yer back."

    [Aug 9, 2005 4:00:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/grunk/2002/04/24/ [Link]  Go to top 
    garf



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    Re: sword patterns examined Reply to this Post
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    i have to admit that i rarely fought poinards, but i do know silverbeard is one of the rare sprinkle masters in the game. and i never wanted to imply its a weak sword - absolutely not. i jest dont think its as unbalancing as ye see it. i agree, i would absolutely like to be able to test some more combinations with various people and see what happens.
    ----------------------------------------
    - Randal

    [size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
    [Aug 6, 2003 2:01:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
    Soma



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    rapiers.. Reply to this Post
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    for such a newly unveiled sword, they sure seem to be a bit weak. Chiefly in the mid-section (both up and down). Perhaps I haven't found or fought against someone using the perfect style for this sword, but for conversations sake, any analysis on how to beef it up a tad? Perhaps if the top row which is xxxvxvvv were copied to the third or fourth vertical column as well? for reference (aided by someone with a horrid memory, bare with any mistakes please) at the moment its a flat xxxxvvvv.
    ----------------------------------------
    Soma
    Castaway of Alpha
    Survivor of Old Spice & Nyx's Scions
    Officer of Black Death
    [Aug 13, 2003 6:55:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Garthor

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    Re: sword patterns examined Reply to this Post
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    Something few people take into consideration is that the two middle rows are the LEAST used rows in a swordfight. You usually will need to drop 3 swords at once to get the solid-color swords for the poinard or the stiletto. 1x4 swords are the exception, but they are too small to matter much.
    ----------------------------------------
    Cleaver wrote: 
    I've never been logged on, let alone on a ship.

    [Aug 13, 2003 7:42:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Aur

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    Upon further review, the poinard is not all that grand. It just took some actually real usage to unravel the mystery. It's not overly powerful, but in the old days when it was rare it seemed so. I think it is because the people who had them were very experienced players seeing as you had to be in order to track a poinard down anyways.

    I'm glad the chance was given to the community to really see the usage of these swords that were once so scarce.


    Next up, making sure the cleaver ain't all that.
    ----------------------------------------
    ~Aur
    Original Riot Starter

    "So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. The other half is HWFO." -Hermes
    [Aug 13, 2003 8:00:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Soma



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    Re: sword patterns examined Reply to this Post
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    it's not. I need to review some shots but it's either powered down or it's just not THAT scary. I see it as slightly above average in most respects, with the majority of it's drops being a simplified scimitar effect. Sure it's a pain to need a certain series of breakers now and then, but it's not a killer situation.
    ----------------------------------------
    Soma
    Castaway of Alpha
    Survivor of Old Spice & Nyx's Scions
    Officer of Black Death
    [Aug 13, 2003 8:53:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Viruuus



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    Cleaver and Scimitar mirrored patterns Reply to this Post
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    Ahoy there.
    Together with garf and some help of Duncan i made some interesting cognitions:
    As some of you might know, it is possible to mirror the patterns of all swords left<->right.
    You wont be able to recognize this with most of the swords like foil, longsword, poignard and so on, because they are all symetric.
    But this is different with the 2 best swords (in my opinion): The cleaver and the Scimitar.
    I am not 100% certain but i believe that you can get a mirrored sword by using purple as first color, or even using purple at all, i am still collecting more information about that.

    But what makes mirroring these 2 swords so interesting?
    Lets see:

    Scimitar:
    The advantage here is quite small, but as you know the scimitar has 5 same-colored sprinkles on the left side and a single othercolored on the right side.
    This makes it extremely easy for the enemy to build up combos on the left side, especially because most of the sprinkles fall down on the left, not on the right.
    By mirroring this sword, your enemy will loose this advantage and you can do 1-3 sprinkles while building up, without having to concern about your enemy getting too good stuff from you.

    Cleaver:
    In this case the advantage is alot bigger, but its also harder to understand it, at least if ye dont know exactly how the patterns work.

    The most annoying thing in the normal cleaver was, that all the swords that were on the left side, no matter if they were 2 or3 pieces wide, were onecolored.
    This is of course extremely weak, especially because most of the swords fall down on the left side, due to the entry column beeing on the right half of the field.
    This will not be the case with a mirrored cleaver, in fact you will in NO case do onecolored swords again, because the one color column in the pattern is on the rightmost side, in will thereby never be used for determining swordscolors.
    Another advantage i personally like alot, is that the 3 colored sword you can do with the cleaver will be quite easy to do on purpose, e.g. by doubling 3 2x2 blocks in a combo.
    This 3 colored sword is the worst sword en enemy can expect to get, because it has no vertically connected pieces at all!
    As you can see, a mirrored cleaver is alot better then these standarc cleavers everyone has just bought :)

    Hope this was a little enlightning to you, thanks fly out to garf for most of the basic informations and some testing.

    If ye still got questions or are up to some nice duels, ye can just whisper me ingame.

    Petruski
    ----------------------------------------
    Petruski - Senior Officer and First Mate of Black Death
    [Aug 16, 2003 8:47:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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