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Teirlap

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Re: pvp incentives Reply to this Post
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Ah, Pennsuedo. You have this uncanny ability to turn a post which could quite easily be perfectly civil and informative into an offensive abomination of personal attacks, arrogance and misconceptions. It's intriguing to watch.

That said... Your system.

Penndalla wrote: 
2. Allow the attacker in pvp to take ALL poe and 50% of goods (or some such similar figure) from the defender should the attacker win. However, they should only be able to take what they ship can hold; otherwise, it be left to the defender.


I have serious issues with 100% payout. I could see the logic behind this, I suppose, but really, while stealing ALL of a victim's loot is plenty fun for the aggressor, it's just plain annoying and frustrating to a victim who was more or less out minding their own business. This might also lead to some unscrupulous pirates 'camping' players who are out hunting Brigands; the 'peaceful' players do all the work, while the PvPers reap all the reward.

The challenge system idea, however, has merit. Sort of like the '/duel' command found in various other MMOGs.
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Frederico del Mar, President of the Emerald Company
'Merchants and accountants by profession, the Company's men lived by the ledger and ruled with the quill.'
~ John Keay, The Honourable Company
[Jul 30, 2003 11:26:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Why thank ye fer notin' me abilities, Frederico. Har. Surely it be more a misunderstandin' than much else. ;)

Ye will note that I put some severe penalties on the attackers fer either losin' or being caught after the fact by the navy. In fact, the navy will even return the goods to the victem. I am game fer other takes fer the victor, but to some degree it should be a bit of a negative to get ganked by the attacker. Thar should be some amount of a feelin' o' dread when less defended ships travel unsecured waters, though I would think the navy retaliation (maybe with less respect fer power ratin's even) would make well patroled waters about and between close islands rather safe.

What fools would repeatedly go get sent home empty handed in patrolled waters? (Har har! HAR! Oops, excuse me...)

I'm up fer tweakin' the figures, it be more the general idea I be after. I do appreciate ye system and the thought behind it, I jest don't much care fer forcin' classes of ships that way. Mayhap thar be somethin' in the middle of what we each propose.
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Pennsuedo

My art: http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all
[Jul 30, 2003 11:41:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Penndalla wrote: 

E'eryone took it personal when we used to attack any ship regardless whether it be player or no'.


Ye know, ye always say that, but I don't recall sayin' ANYTHING about it to anyone but me crew other than that it happened. Just like with all the other crews that did the same thing, I whomped ye, laughed, and left it. Ye're the one who claims everyone cried, but I was perfectly happy to whomp ye as often as need be. Point to ONE instance in which I complained, cried, or whined, and I'll discuss further with ye, but ye can't, 'cause all I did was laugh about what slow learners ye were with me crew.
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[Jul 30, 2003 1:06:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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I require further lessons if ye will do the charity of floatin' a ship to train a ship of mine with. =P

No thoughts on me proposal fer handlin' pvp?
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Pennsuedo

My art: http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all
[Jul 30, 2003 1:12:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Penndalla wrote: 
I require further lessons if ye will do the charity of floatin' a ship to train a ship of mine with. =P


Ah, ye don't care to admit that ye're lyin' about EVERYONE complainin'? Me ships are at sea pretty much every day - ye know where to find us. I'm surely not doin' ye any favors, as I'm sure ye know, so ye're on yer own as far as schoolin'.
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[Jul 30, 2003 1:27:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Ye surely should refrain from callin' me a liar.
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Pennsuedo

My art: http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all
[Jul 30, 2003 2:01:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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muffy wrote: 
I really don't know where ye got this idea that ye (generic) would be stopped from doing anything ye choose to do - perhaps ye can point out the text which made ye think this?


Frederico wrote: 
- Pirate Crews can, and probably will, be barred from trading certain commodities from Islands (this is up to the individual Governor, however)


i find that pretty much saying exactly what i do not want and said i do not want. you might be describing a different system now, but it eludes me where all the differences are detailed. i have to agree that fredericos posting was complicated, so its no shame not to notice every detail.


i would be fine if this applied to a vessel. im not fine with it applying to a crew. that is, of course, excluding flag war situations which are obviously a completely different thing.




also, im not sure what you're up to with all that "haha, ye attacked a navy vessel" wuss. the lubbers be a crew open to anyone, and the requirements fer officership arent too restrictive (well, that may change rather soon, but thats a different matter).

that results in occasionally quite unexperienced officers who might make the occasional mistake of not seeing their target is navy. surely, that is less likely to happen to an elitary crew, so it might not have happened to any ARR ships. i somehow doubt that, though.

i would very much prefer if you, rifkind, and me captain pennsuedo would restrict yer personal differences to yerself. i do not like getting stray fire from a flame war i do not wish to participate in.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 30, 2003 10:50:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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garf wrote: 
muffy wrote: 
I really don't know where ye got this idea that ye (generic) would be stopped from doing anything ye choose to do - perhaps ye can point out the text which made ye think this?


Frederico wrote: 
- Pirate Crews can, and probably will, be barred from trading certain commodities from Islands (this is up to the individual Governor, however)


i find that pretty much saying exactly what i do not want and said i do not want.


This has been something which has been mentioned as being part of the game for a very long time now. The confusion here is that, because I had taken this as being already part of the game (though planned for the future), I did not consider it as part of Frederico's proposal. As I said in another post, my understanding of this is that ALL crews can (at some future point) be banned by the governor of an island. It's purely up to the government. Again, see the "Bounty" thread I referenced above.
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[Jul 31, 2003 1:03:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Aye it is part of the plan to allow Governors to embargo crews. This may end up tying in very closely to declarations of war, blockades, etc.

/em nudges some Captains away from the flames of Udun.
[Jul 31, 2003 3:10:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Protected waters... Dangerous waters
Big risk... Big gain
No forced crew types... Freedom and inner-crew diversification
Hot pursuits... Thrillin' get aways.

Arr
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Pennsuedo

My art: http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all
[Jul 31, 2003 4:37:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
poobox



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I really like all the suggestions for what would be good systems using pirate/privateer/tradeship/navy distinctions to make playing the game as players interacting with other players more than npps more fun. That said I think they're all either close to what the Ringers must have been thinking about for a few years now or too far away to be implemented now that they've come this far. that said i have some suggestions for baby steps that might make the existing system more fun for all involved.

1, more puzzles on land. this is intended already of course, but i don't think we/they should overlook the effect it will have on the things that are done now. if players who don't have enough time or experience or interest to get involved in politics, and thus handle some of these problems witout complicated systems for them, had something else to do, they would be less annoying to the players who are interested in all of that, and would still have a reason to give the Ringers money everymonth.

2, less npps and less skilled npps. I'm not suggesting that brigands be removed, but as many people have already stated, if you want more PvP action raise the percentage of P in the water. (sorry couldn't help myself).. and for skill levels, having it become more profitable to employ players aboard trade ships than NPPs is something that i think will make PvP more common and more fun.
this means having the swabbies best sailing scores and best swordfighting skills less than the average player, significantly less. I'm pretty sure a crew with any (and certainly with all) swabbies should be capable of reaching top speed, whether this is done by making them worse at carpentry so that you need 2 or more on bilge and carpentry or just making the sailing rules require higher scores than swabbies can get.

3, improvements to the jobbing system. going along with 2, if i have to job pirates to trade efficiently I at least want to know I'll have pirates available. I'd like to see waiting lists for jobs with descriptions of the mission (pillaging, trading..) and set prices listed with the job paid per league. Instead of having to approve jobbers the posting could have minimum alowable skill or experience, and ships could have block lists for jobbers that have done them wrong somehow. Maybe even have the current duties being jobbed listed and throw the next jobber straight into that puzzle when another jobber leaves.
another way this could be used is as crew's bulliten boards for what they're doing. That means, let crew members of a jobbing ship apply and be moved strait to the front of the queue or even brought strait onto the ship if there's room. I think you should let the current jobber finish a league before being removed of course.

these all tie together. More crafting puzzles that could be played while waiting to be whisked onto a ship would be needed to make waiting for the better posted jobs worth while. guaranteed pay for jobs will put more money aboard players' ships to make PvP more proffitable. and a better way of organizing your crew systematically would come with a better way of getting new players aboard ships.

on the jobbers thing.. a listing of 0 P.O.E could be fine for a pillaging trip if the cut was listed and that cut paid immediately after each victory.

I realize that these aren't a clear manifesto for the perfect pirate-game system, but I think they would make a noticable improvement on the game without requiring overhawl.

poobox, aka Gilbert, Sullivan, and OldBen
[Jul 31, 2003 5:11:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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I like the idea of a list of jobbers waiting for jobs -- so ye could register your name and wait for a hire... it would also be nice for Captains to be able to peruse the available pirates at leisure. And alleviate the noticeboard camping. I think that should go on the list, along with the more puzzles.

But what I wanted to post on was PvP. Last night I was out and we fought three player ships, with them attacking us and us attacking them. Earlier I was visiting ships and two ships I visited in a row were fighting players. I've been trying to get Nemo to print something out for me for an hour and he's constantly fighting off players. I'm increasingly under the impression that there's a lot of PvP going on -- especially in the waters between Alpha and Turtle. It's still not lucrative... but it is fun (or at least, all the fights I was in were good natured exchanges).

Edit, much later: Nemo is still fighting players. Peghead just got pillaged by Rubby's scurvy lot on a trade run from Spring, loaded down with wood. It's PvP central here at Dread Ringers HQ, and we're not doing the attacking.
[Jul 31, 2003 8:29:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
stevoid



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I just "bug reported" but it was more of a grumble report - when I post a jobbing notice (on Alpha even though I'm in Emerald, which entails hopping back & forth to pay poor jobbers somewhere that they can get their cash after the trip btw...) I get maybe 3 applications immediately, then take the job notice down and job them...and they all have pending invitations so I have to do it all over again.

Could we make it possible to only apply for one job at a time? That's 4 jobbers that I've failed to get due to pending invitations, one that did one battle then unfortunately disconnected, and one very successful that came out for a couple of quick battles then I paid them on Turtle. So managed 2 battles (right off Epsilon so we luckily didn't have to sail anywhere for them!) in nearly an hour, what with the failed jobbing, and waiting for people to appear when I do job them, and hopping over to pay them somewhere they can actually use the money. I'm guessing that people are applying for every job on the noticeboard all at the same time; which is a BIT annoying!
[Jul 31, 2003 10:47:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Cleaver wrote: 
Edit, much later: Nemo is still fighting players. Peghead just got pillaged by Rubby's scurvy lot on a trade run from Spring, loaded down with wood. It's PvP central here at Dread Ringers HQ, and we're not doing the attacking.


Aye, I've seen plenty of PvP too, most often when, as now, we have a large number of new crews showing up. I think it drops off again after that when they don't get anything for their efforts, either because they lose or because they win and players have nothing. Then they go after brigands because, after all, someone's got to pay for the rum. Free rum night was fabulous, by the way.

A non-convoluted way to encourage PvP occurred to me - how about if every PvP ecounter results in the winners getting some rare item or commodity? Kraken's Blood, Yarrow, Cubanite, Cleaver, Poinard, 20 units of Elderberries, 50 units of iron, a bolt of black cloth, etc. This might also discourage camping, since it's a lot faster to get this stuff in a battle, and more fun, too. It distinguishes PvP from brigand hunting - ye get cash and common stuff from brigands, ye get little cash (typically) but cool stuff from PvP.
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[Aug 1, 2003 1:25:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Though that could be easily exploited with two dummy crews . . . "hey, let's fight each other a bunch of times and split the profit on Thorianite and kraken's blood!"
[Aug 1, 2003 1:29:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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homullus wrote: 
Though that could be easily exploited with two dummy crews . . . "hey, let's fight each other a bunch of times and split the profit on Thorianite and kraken's blood!"


Aye, I thought of that (should have mentioned it). In the end, ye can't stop people from exploiting any "reward." If enough people exploit it, it won't be valuable anymore. At which point, there'll be no point in exploiting it anymore, until there's demand again. Ye could slow it down by not givin' rare items to a ship which is already carryin' one, or by makin' it one per crew per day, but why not just have certain things become less rare over time? How important is rarity of these items? And is there really a limit on how much black cloth people will want? *grin*
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[Aug 1, 2003 2:16:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Aye, but having more free items appear moves us away from a closed economy, rather than towards one. I don't think it's possible to ever *reach* a closed economy, but the trouble spots seem to be at the places where new stuff comes in: NPP brigand booty is more sought-after than PvP, and raw materials are being camped.

Why have things that are rare at all? Status. People like to have things that say "I didn't just step off the Pollywog," and rarer colors are one way of making that distinction. Not the only way, but certainly the one affecting first impressions . . . everything else (seeing a pirate's rankings, or titles, or sword, or house eventually) would come after that first impression.
[Aug 1, 2003 2:28:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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I'd settle for a golden glow about me person...*smile*...
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