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garf



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pvp incentives Reply to this Post
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what can be done to make pvp more rewarding?

the fun factor is perfectly alright in my opinion, but the rewards in terms of poe and goods lack a lot.

as already mentioned (*), i would suggest that one step fer this could be a greatly increased percentage of the victims booty to be given to the winner. maybe even up to 100%?

the advantages would include that traders could still do their thing without being instantly ruined when pillaged, since their goods are not in the booty, but in their hold. same goes for the annoyance of being stripped of all the rum 20 leagues from the nearest source.

also, the reward in some cases automatically balances versus the difficulty - when yer target has a full booty, they must have won a lot of and/or hard battles, so they likely are no easy prey. and the targets are likely to be interested in sea battles - if they hadnt pillaged themselves, they wouldnt have booty.

im not sure about money in a players pockets.. the percentages here could probably be raised, too, but going to 100% surely would annoy a lot of people who are "moving" from one archipelago to another and take most of their wealth with them.


another thing to consider: give some indicator about how loaded (with gold only and/or with goods) vessels are. realism check - full ships sink deeper into the sea. this would go hand in hand with higher booty ratios stolen; maybe even make only booty count to such an indicator, not the hold.

of course, it would be debatable if 10 units of kraken blood show up on that...

it also would be nice if the ratings fer sea battles could separate brigands from pvp; this would give people something to strive for. of course, that would likely attract gankers, and its surely debatable from a realism point of view. hm.. maybe that idea wasnt so good at all.



(*) in another thread where cleaver requested it to go elsewhere... so there.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 25, 2003 10:51:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Rengor



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I agree that PvP needs something done to it. There's very little right now and what there is more out of surprise or a couple of arranged battles.
PvP is certainly not a way for a pirate to make a living.
But it has to be done so that it won't ruin the game for those not interested.

A higher share of booty/hold would be an obvious choice. I don't think we should protect the hold completely. And I certainly don't want an indicator of who's sailing with large amounts of money.

I was thinking a system where if your crew decides to fly the Jolly Roger then they can win more than the current standard booty, but they in turn risk loosing alot more themselves. And if they attack another crew with the Jolly Roger then they both risk the same high amount (consentual).
That should make PvP a risky business if you pick on non-pvp crews, but perfectly fine against other pvp crews.

Another system could be standings between crews/flags. Where the more you attack a certain crew/flag the more you standings are lowered and the more you risk loosing.
I think this system would make sure mostly pvp based crews/flags battle it out, and if a bigger pvp crew/flag keeps picking on a weaker crew/flag then its at their own risk of loosing some battles and a higher amount of their own booty.
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-= SilverBeard of The Mad Mutineers =-
--=== www.madmutineers.com ===--
[Jul 26, 2003 2:57:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
oconp88



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Jolly Roger Reply to this Post
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I love the Jolly Roger idea, however I think ye need to force crews to keep the JR on certain ships long term/permanently. I would hate to be on a boat that is being attacked by a crew flying the JR right up until the moment before the engagement. I think that the navy should be tracking the attacks by ships flying the JR and should move to the routes with the most attacks. The navy would then be after the "real" pirates and would have an advantage over them.

I see
PVP JR v flag: JR crew has an advantage due to the fear factor
PVP JR v JR: even
NPP Brigand v JR: dunno if brigands are concidered flying the JR then even if they are just troublemakers on the high seas, the JR has advantage

NPP Navy v JR: Navy due to their strong drive to protect the innocent or somthing

But I would like to see an ocean in flux where pirates are hitting one route so the navy shifts to protect that route, so the pirates shift, so the navy shifts, etc...

Just me 2 poe.

Visit the Hemporium on guava!

Eduardo
[Jul 26, 2003 3:13:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ely



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garf wrote: 
i would suggest that one step fer this could be a greatly increased percentage of the victims booty to be given to the winner. maybe even up to 100%?


Mmhmm, some of this was suggested a long time ago, too, and the basic idea is probably a best bet at making random PvP viable again. Having a PvP victory generate extra money out of thin air wouldn't be that much different from the money generated by brigands at the moment, so it doesn't seem like it would break anything, either.

However, having the amount generated based on a percentage of the current vessel holdings is too ripe for exploitation and gamey tactics. Even if you increased the average PvP payout now by a factor of ten, you'd still be pulling in less than 1,000 per victory. Most ships do NOT carry money on them, or they hit the bank as soon as they make a score.

A couple of wealthy friends could also intentionally load up their vessels with all their money and stage fights against each other all day, generating buckets of free cash with each victory.

I think the best way to introduce this would be to have some hard numbers dictating what hidden holdings a particular vessel will have, based on either vessel class, crew power, or both. Additionally, there would need to be a timer on this generator so no two ships could hold friendly engagements day and night, all while generating money. I don't know how long it should be, but it should only affect an outcome by those two ships alone. Either one could go off and fight another player and see that magic money appear. I suppose that this would also go towards curbing crew harassment.

 
it also would be nice if the ratings fer sea battles could separate brigands from pvp; this would give people something to strive for. of course, that would likely attract gankers, and its surely debatable from a realism point of view. hm.. maybe that idea wasnt so good at all.


I think pirate versus pirate fans competing on the same scoreboard as those fighting NPPs is liable to make the the PvPers just work harder to get a decent score. Having their own score seems like a good idea.



Maybe not so incidentally: I'd like to hear from Cleaver or others what the current plans are regarding PvP changes and the plan to make commerce proliferate. Some ideas on what to expect from flag warfare would be good, too.

That information would probably help us avoid suggesting things that may already be on the table.
[Jul 26, 2003 3:49:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ely114 [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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Etymology: Jolly Roger-french 'Jolie Rouge' meaning Red Flag Reply to this Post
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I rather like the Jolly Roger idea. Think anyone would get it if I just flew a red flag?

How about your crew is marked should they ever fly the Jolly Roger? For instance, you might not be flying it now, but your ship information will show that you have indeed comitted acts of piracy before. Also, you should be at the higher risk bracket, even if you're not flying the piracy flag at the moment.

Then you can let them run up the flag at the last second if they so desire, much like real pirates. If they don't bother to, they stand to lose more and gain less.

I have this thought of attaching the black mark of piracy to ships instead of crews. This'd make captains a great deal more careful about who they allow to sail their ships, and have the added benefit of giving ships a sort of history. Think Shadow could've charged me more for the Living Haddock if he also could've claimed it was free of any piratical reputation?

Perhaps the piracy mark could grow darker and darker as the pirates grow more notorious. A ship that preys on a great deal of heavily laden vessels, or newbie ships, or does in fact run up the flag a the last moment more oten than not, could have some sort of notoriousness indicator. Picture it with me now*!

Officer: "Green ship, aft a quarter league, coming up fast! All hands, ready you---Oh no! It's the Living Haddock!"
Pirate 1: "I've heard they don't lose PVP, ever!"
Officer: "I've heard that they're so good at this they take everything you've got! Ye'll be lucky t'get home at all!"
Pirate crew: "Run away! Run away!"
Fronsac: "Prepare ta be boarded...*hic*!"

*- [size=9]Indulge me this little fantasy. Hey, maybe I'll get a reaction like that should I ever sail again! Also, I don't know the name of any of Rifkind's ships. And I don't know anyone else who wins quite that often.
----------------------------------------
Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Jul 26, 2003 5:13:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jethro



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Re: pvp incentives Reply to this Post
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Perhaps you could run up the JR at any time, but you could only take it down while at port.
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Jethro - Officer of the Salty Mouthfuls
Jethykins - Cook of the Salty Mouthfuls and certainly not Jethro in drag. Oh no. Not at all. Nope.
[Jul 26, 2003 7:25:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    JGulner [Link]  Go to top 
Teirlap

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Pirate, Merchant and Navy Crews Reply to this Post
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This was an idea I had after Cleaver 'threw us out' of that other thread for talking about PvP. Unfortunately, I didn't have an opportunity to type it all out until just now, but I figure this is as good a place as any to post it. I'm hoping this makes at least some sense, but if it needs some clarification, just say, and I'll be happy to attempt and provide it.

Note that this is a 'discussion' document, so any comments/critiques/new ideas/light flames are not only encouraged, but greatly appreciated.

--------------------

Pirate and Merchant Ship Classifications

Each vessel would now be classed as either a 'Pirate' ship or a 'Merchant' ship. The differences between the two would be as follows:

PIRATE

- Can intercept and attack any and all nearby vessels
- Cannot purchase commodities or have goods delivered to its Hold (CRITICAL EXCEPTION: the three types of Liquor and Shot)

MERCHANT

- Cannot intercept or attack any nearby vessels, but MAY defend itself if engaged by a Pirate vessel
- Can purchase/order any and all commodities as normal

Now, to make these two PP vessel types more attractive to attack...

PIRATE

- Upon losing a battle, the standard 30% Booty, 10% Hold/on hand penalty applies [perhaps raise the Booty penalty?]
- If the amount coughed up to the victors is not at least equal to the loot given by an NPP Brigand ship of the same size/might, a 'magical money satchel' supplied Bounty is added to bring the total loot up to even that of an NPP Brigand ship
- The new end of battle message would be something to the effect of 'The victors pillaged 52 pieces of eight and 0 goods from the losers. The governing council of the [archipelago] has also granted you a 448 piece of eight bounty for the defeat of this Pirate vessel.'

MERCHANT

- PP Merchant ships could probably still pay out the standard 30%/10%/10%, but somehow, I think a 30%/30%/30% reward would make more sense, given that they'll probably have nothing in their Booty, being unable to pillage anyone
- Merchant vessels do NOT get the Bounty added on to their loot when they are defeated; indeed, defeating a Merchant vessel could be considered an act of war against the Flag which owns it, and could possibly mark the Pirate ship as 'Notorious', meaning NPP Navy ships will now actively engage it (of course, at this point I'm not certain what the Ringers have in mind for the whole 'Notorious' title, so that part may have to be tailored a bit)

Issues

How exactly do we determine which of our ships are Merchant vessels and which are Pirate vessels?

I can see several ways of handling this, each with pros and cons...

- Permanent choice on a ship-by-ship basis (i.e., when that new Large Sloop is delivered from the Shipyard, you're given a choice between it becoming a Pirate vessel or a Merchant vessel, and it'll be stuck with that classification forever)
- Choice on a ship-by-ship basis, but can be changed at the Captain/Owner's discretion (note: a timer would definitely have to be placed on this to avoid exploitation; perhaps 24-72 hours before changing again)
- All ships within a Crew are of a certain type, determined by the Captain either permanently or switchable on a timer similar to the above (possible problem: entire Crews being barred from trade/combat; perhaps not a MAJOR issue within Flags, as a new trade/combat Crew could simply be started)

I tend to lean toward the third option, myself.

Hey, I shouldn't be barred from trading just because I'm a Pirate.

Well, first off, there's a fairly decent 'in character' response to this: you're a bloodthirsty Pirate, and as such, most Islands/Markets/Shoppes despise you, and simply want you to restock your ship and sail as far away from them as possible. Also, preventing 'militant' vessels from dabbling in the commodities trade would free up work for more 'legitimate' Merchant vessels. However, I can understand that most folks probably wouldn't want to be restricted in such a way. As such, either some tweaking needs to be done (some sort of limit on the amount of buying/selling done by Pirate vessels?) or people just need to accept/adjust to the fact that the vast majority of commerce/trading would be left to more peaceful seamen.

What about the exploit Ely mentoned above (two 'friendly' Pirates attacking each other repeatedly in order to 'mass produce' loot)? How would you deal with that?

Probably the same way Ely suggested. By placing some sort of timer/limit on Bounties (only one Bounty from a specific Pirate Ship/Crew for every X hour(s)), we could limit the number of times a Pirate Crew could get 'extra loot' for downing another Pirate Crew in battle. Of course, I see no reason why we should limit 'Bounty Free' Sea Battles; if I want to attack ARR every fifteen minutes just for the sake of irking Rifkind/Soma, I should be allowed to, but I shouldn't expect to make any real money off of doing do.

Where do Flag politics fit into all this? And what about us pillagers who don't really care to fight other players?

Ah, I'm glad you asked, Non-Existent Guy Who Seems To Be Asking All These Questions.

I was toying with the idea of a third vessel classification, 'Navy'.

NAVY

- Can only be fielded by Crews allied with a Flag
- Can intercept and attack any and all nearby vessels; however, a Navy vessel should choose its targets far more carefully than a Pirate ship
  • ]All Pirate ships are fair game
  • ]Attacking Navy ships of other Flags results in an automatic state of War existing between the two Flags
  • ]Attacking Merchant ships of other Flags ALSO results in a state of War existing between the two Flags; however, attacking Merchant vessels of already Hostile Flags is actually encouraged
  • ]Attacking non-aligned Merchant ships strips the Navy Ship/Crew of its distinction, and causes them to become both a Pirate Ship/Crew and Notorious[/list:u:f3a8cae317]- Cannot purchase commodities or have goods delivered to its Hold (CRITICAL EXCEPTION: the three types of Liquor and Shot)
    - Upon losing a battle, the standard 30% Booty, 10% Hold/on hand penalty applies [perhaps raise the Booty penalty?]
    - If the amount coughed up to the victors is not at least equal to the loot given by an NPP Brigand ship of the same size/might, one of two things happens...
    - if the Navy Ship/Crew's Flag is not currently at War with any other Flag, the loot is distributed as normal
    - if the Navy Ship/Crew's Flag IS currently at War with another Flag, that Flag has the option of paying out a 'Flag Bounty' to any vessel which defeats the Navy ships of its enemy
    • ]the Flag Bounty would actually be a percentage, ranging from 0% (no Bounty), to 100% (full 'reimbursement' of the difference between the actual loot and that of an equal strength NPP Brigand; this would work out to be exactly the same as normal Pirate Bounties), up to a max of 200% (twice what a normal Bounty would give; any number over 100% would be used to really encourage Pirates and other Navy vessels to attack this enemy Flag's vessels); this number is, of course, individually set for each Hostile Flag, although I'm not sure if the amount should be cumulative if several Flags post Bounties on a single Hostile Flag
    • ]the Flag Bounty would come out of the Monarch/Royalty's own pockets, by way of some sort of 'bank account' found within one of their Palaces/Forts; of course, poor/peaceful Flags are under absolutely no obligation to put a Flag Bounty on any ship, and could most likely manually repeal the declaration of War at any time
    • ]it is worth noting that in times of War, attacking Merchant vessels allied with a hostile Flag could also cause Flag Bounties to be paid out[/list:u:f3a8cae317]- The new end of battle message in these cases would be something to the effect of 'The victors pillaged 52 pieces of eight and 0 goods from the losers. The monarch of [Flag name], [name], has also granted you a 448 piece of eight bounty for the defeat of this Navy vessel.'

      ...

      You know, having just spontaneously typed all that out, I believe that classifying entire CREWS as either Pirate, Navy or Merchant would help simplify the system a lot, and also prevent 'evil' Pirate Crews from having a 'peaceful' Navy/Merchant ship or two to sail around in safely.

      -----------------

      Phew. That's about it.

      ...My fingers hurt.
      ----------------------------------------
      Frederico del Mar, President of the Emerald Company
      'Merchants and accountants by profession, the Company's men lived by the ledger and ruled with the quill.'
      ~ John Keay, The Honourable Company
[Jul 26, 2003 8:53:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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I see a lot of good ideas in there, tierlap. My only issue is the same one I had with the ones that came before: timers.

Here we find that I have possibly an odd view regarding timers, in that I think your (not yours personally, but any) design is flawed if you require a timer to balance the use of it. Timers seem to interrupt the flow of the game. If there is any advantage to camping your own timer to change at exactly the right moment you can be sure people will.

I'm reminded of something robert rodriguez once said: "If they notice that [the character] is wearing a vest in one shot and not in the next, I've already lost."

To apply it to games, if you start letting the player worry about anything other than actually playing the game it starts to get less and less fun, which is the whole point of the game in the first place!

Hence my thought: No timers. Consequences to your actions. All the freedom afforded by the game now, except it might be a good idea to inform your decision before you run up the Jolly Roger. Plus, it'd give us an excuse to have a top ten for overall dastardliness.

Or am I just too in love with the idea of ships gaining reputations of their own?

Remember, we all loved a recent movie about a terrifyingly feared ship. The captain and crew were unknown to most denizens of that particular land.
----------------------------------------
Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Jul 26, 2003 9:31:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ely



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I had some similar thoughts on implementing rules to define pirate versus trader versus navy, so we are on the same wavelength here.

We probably want being a merchant to be both easier and more profitable (at least on paper) since these guys are esentially going to be playing the prey. Perhaps being a merchant should be the more accessible of the two?

Here's an idea: add a new function to the market on islands, where a crew can join up with a local merchant guild. Through this guild they can get access to specialized merchant ships that cost a fair amount less than ships of equal class being bought through the shipwright. Maybe the market would pay the difference, who knows.

In order to encourage local trade, these ships might come with a set collection of maps to local islands. They also might have access to a larger number of NPP swabbies, to encourage soloists to trade--yet have less of an offensive punch (fewer guns, none?) to discourage a merchant from shoving off and actually looking for a fight.

As for PP controlled navies, I'm not so sure. I had the idea that after attacking a merchant vessel, a PP pirate ship would have itself flagged for a time (15 minutes?) and in that time NPP navy vessels will attack the priate ship should they cross paths. This would encourage a pirate ship to make a hit and then scram to lay low for a spell. No loitering around and camping merchants.

This would go a long ways towards introducing new players to PvP, and probably making them enjoy it if the odds are in favor of the Navy ship.

Also I am not sure I like pirate vessels being unable to trade goods, but I also don't know of a very sensible way to make trading on a vulnerable merchant ship more attractive than on a powerful pirate ship. Could we allow trading on pirate ships, but have some method of setting aside goods for merchant ships specifically? Seems to me a merchant guild would send its fleet out to pick up on deals already made, so there would be fewer "dry runs" while involving yourself with the guild.
[Jul 26, 2003 9:50:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ely114 [Link]  Go to top 
Ely



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Hence my thought: No timers. Consequences to your actions.


We've been there. The timer preventing us from re-attacking ships is currently much MUCH longer than the old one.

No one had fun (except for a few of us), everyone complained. I don't think we're going to see a return of the timerless attacks.
[Jul 26, 2003 9:55:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ely114 [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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I don't much care for 'hand of god' work in my games. Reply to this Post
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Ely wrote: 
No one had fun (except for a few of us), everyone complained. I don't think we're going to see a return of the timerless attacks.


D'oh, I forgot about that one. You misunderstand, I was merely referring to timers to limit your ability to change your crew's function.

Don't get me wrong; I still dislike timers in any capacity. The current ship battle timer is long enough that even a heavily laden vessel isn't worth loitering around to pillage over and over again...but what if it was worth it? Would we lengthen the timer again?

Attacking a tired and worn out crew is a tried and true pirate tactic, but even I'll admit it's not any fun for the tired crew. I'd like to see anyone who does it, though, punished ingame, like having navy ships respond in kind to pirates who attack the same ship repeatedly.

I can see it now...You're feeling pretty good, feeling pretty invincible, 'cause you've got a hold full of some fully loaded galleon's booty. Only took three battles, right in a row! Coming into Turtle to sell of the goods and pay your crew, suddenly, bam, bam, bam, three navy brigs who were patrolling the area spank yo' punk aft down. No time to repair, no time to gather yourself for a coherent strategy...

Piracy was dangerous work. Let pirates have their flag's home port (heck, thats' very realistic) and be fairly hunted most everywhere else. If said pirates want to fence their ill-gotten gains, let'em sell it to the flag's merchant fleet, who'll then distribute it to the rest of the archipelago!


Arrr, I'm getting carried away. What I'm suggesting is complex, time-consuming, and would require an overhaul of both the economy and play dynamic. Maybe the above is a good candidate for my proposed [rant] tag?
----------------------------------------
Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Jul 26, 2003 10:12:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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Ely wrote: 
A couple of wealthy friends could also intentionally load up their vessels with all their money and stage fights against each other all day, generating buckets of free cash with each victory.


hmmm. i originally wasnt suggesting generating money out of nowhere, but just taking it away from the losers. of course, i do see the problems of ships with booty quickly dividing up after winning it, so targets would be scarce. the money you'd win *would* be enough if ye caught one, since it'd just be what they won from brigands before. they wouldnt have it any longer, and you could divvy that thing.

a possibility to avoid the possibly resulting "camp port, jump out to pillage, return" style would be to have brigands sail only on the leagues at least one league away from ports. this way, the last league to port could become the "pvp" pillage league.

maybe it would also have to be made harder to reach top speed so that the chases before sea battle actually get more determined by skill/work.



i dont like the basic jolly roger idea. it seems artificial in a way, i dont see how it could get more rewarding player vessel targets fer pillage on the sea, and im generally everything but fond of pvp switches, which that one would kinda be.


frederico - i'll need some more time to think about it, but it looks like a very good concept indeed. i'll try to get back to that later.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 26, 2003 10:26:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Teirlap

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Ely wrote: 
As for PP controlled navies, I'm not so sure. I had the idea that after attacking a merchant vessel, a PP pirate ship would have itself flagged for a time (15 minutes?) and in that time NPP navy vessels will attack the priate ship should they cross paths. This would encourage a pirate ship to make a hit and then scram to lay low for a spell. No loitering around and camping merchants.


PP Navies, of course, don't necessarily have to act as 'Navies'. 'Navy' is a term I throw around a lot to refer to Crews which don't really have a desire to target other players. I consider ARR more a 'Navy' or 'crew of Privateers' than a 'crew of Pirates' since we generally target only NPP Brigand ships, a mindset which, despite the monetary benefits, could be considered 'good' or 'lawful' or 'heroic'. As such, Navy Crews would be the generic 'pillaging' Crews found within Flags, targetting NPP Brigands and perhaps the odd independent Pirate Crew 95% of the time, and swinging into action against Flag enemies the rest of the time. However, given that we only have Basic Flags at this point, I admit that the whole Flag Bounty system and other related bits are a bit long term. As such, I think we'll be more than OK with just Pirate/Merchant ships for now.

As for the 'fifteen minute flag', I believe that's how the 'Notorious' Crew title was supposed to work. The first time a Pirate Crew attacks a Merchant vessel, they would find NPP Navy ships lusting after their chitlins for about fifteen minutes. The second time, it'd be for a half hour or so. This 'penalty' would continue climbing steadily upward until, eventually, NPP Navy vessels would be CONSTANTLY after the Crew.

 
This would go a long ways towards introducing new players to PvP, and probably making them enjoy it if the odds are in favor of the Navy ship.


Beef up Naval NPPs, perhaps? I'm not sure what kind of skills they have at this moment, but I always kind of wanted them to be different from Brigands and Swabbies; more formidable puzzling skills on average, Navy colored uniforms, ranks rather than adjectives as their prefixes ('Captain', 'Seaman' and 'Lieutenant' rather than 'Stinky', 'Honest' and 'Lazy'). The general goal would be to make it so you certainly don't want the NPP Navy after you, but not to make such encounters 'Black Ship impossible' to win.

(Actually, come to think of it, you could always connect the Navy NPP's skills to their prefix. Each ship would have one Grandmaster to Ultimate Captain, at least one Master to Grandmaster Lieutenant and a slew of Distinguished to Master Seamen. This would allow for more skillful targetting by PPs during Sea Battle melees versus Navy ships ['Quick, everyone! Let's take down Captain Morgan!'])

Finally, addressing these two quotes...

 
We probably want being a merchant to be both easier and more profitable (at least on paper) since these guys are esentially going to be playing the prey. Perhaps being a merchant should be the more accessible of the two?


 
Also I am not sure I like pirate vessels being unable to trade goods, but I also don't know of a very sensible way to make trading on a vulnerable merchant ship more attractive than on a powerful pirate ship. Could we allow trading on pirate ships, but have some method of setting aside goods for merchant ships specifically? Seems to me a merchant guild would send its fleet out to pick up on deals already made, so there would be fewer "dry runs" while involving yourself with the guild.


...I'm hoping that the trade changes the Ringers have in the works for the near/distant future will solve those issues and make the mercantile life a more attractive one.
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Frederico del Mar, President of the Emerald Company
'Merchants and accountants by profession, the Company's men lived by the ledger and ruled with the quill.'
~ John Keay, The Honourable Company
[Jul 26, 2003 10:41:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ely



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garf wrote: 
hmmm. i originally wasnt suggesting generating money out of nowhere, but just taking it away from the losers.


Oh, you're right, I glossed over that. I see what you mean, now.

I still don't think that taking exclusively from what the pirates have on board is going to help, though. It's still too big of a gamble, and it's going to result in even more complaining by the victims if they go away absolutely empty handed--people are going to be PISSED if they pirate for an hour and then have a better crew swoop in and take away close to everything that they just won. And then people would just moan until it was changed back to how it was before.

I think that having money conjured is the way to go. It's not that different from hitting up brigands right now, and even if the attacker wins, the victim is still left with some (maybe even most) of their holdings.

The situation we have now is one where we usually pay to PvP, which is just so ass-backwards that I don't need to go into why it needs to change. I don't think it's going to be attractive until a decent payoff is assured in virtually every victory, while at the same time ensuring fun for all sides.
[Jul 26, 2003 10:50:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ely114 [Link]  Go to top 
Ely



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Teirlap wrote: 
Beef up Naval NPPs, perhaps? I'm not sure what kind of skills they have at this moment, but I always kind of wanted them to be different from Brigands and Swabbies; more formidable puzzling skills on average, Navy colored uniforms, ranks rather than adjectives as their prefixes ('Captain', 'Seaman' and 'Lieutenant' rather than 'Stinky', 'Honest' and 'Lazy'). The general goal would be to make it so you certainly don't want the NPP Navy after you, but not to make such encounters 'Black Ship impossible' to win.


I like the idea with reassinging the Navy NPP prefixes and adding some meaning. And yes, definitely make them the Navy ships powerful only within reason. No black ship clones. We want them to drive most of the reasonable captains off (fleeing during sea battle), but some of the crazier captains may just try to take them on, and with some luck, find themsevles victorious.

And we are both anxiously awaiting details on the commerce and merchant additions.
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garf



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having thought a bit more about yer suggestions, frederico, i must say im *very* fond of yer ideas. i dont see any real issues with it (leaving the whole navy thing out fer now because that very much depends on how flag wars, for which there are already fixed plans as far as i know, will work).


i would however really want this to be on a per ship basis, and likely the permanent one.

the reason is simple - i dont see why i should be restricted from a portion of a game. i want to be able to command a pirate vessel today and lead a trade trip tomorrow, and i most certainly wouldnt want to switch crews fer that each day. also, i dont really see the advantage of restricting crews to jest one of the things.

permanent jest because everything non-permanent (or semi-permanent, like ye can set a ship to change whenever in port, but the change will only take place after 24 hours) is likely to have some exploits that then would require fixing.
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[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 26, 2003 11:20:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Teirlap

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garf wrote: 
i would however really want this to be on a per ship basis, and likely the permanent one.

the reason is simple - i dont see why i should be restricted from a portion of a game. i want to be able to command a pirate vessel today and lead a trade trip tomorrow, and i most certainly wouldnt want to switch crews fer that each day. also, i dont really see the advantage of restricting crews to jest one of the things.


My reason for leaning toward the Pirate/Merchant Crew designation is simple: it would give Pirates some accountability. A group of bloodthirsty brigands wouldn't be able to suddenly atone and begin dabbling in commerce just by switching vessels.

However, in the beginning, the idea was for the classification to be on a per-ship basis. That way, Crews could have both Merchant vessels for legitimate trade and Pirate vessels for pillaging. Having given it some additional thought, I believe I would be OK with that if the 'Notorious' title was carried by Crews as a whole. So, if a Crew uses its Pirate vessels to chase down Merchant ships, eventually both the Crew's Pirate and Merchant vessels will be hunted by the NPP Navy. This gives Crews pretty much the same freedom as they have now, but also ensures that Pirates with a taste for Merchant blood cannot exploit the two ship classifications to escape punishment from the law.
----------------------------------------
Frederico del Mar, President of the Emerald Company
'Merchants and accountants by profession, the Company's men lived by the ledger and ruled with the quill.'
~ John Keay, The Honourable Company
[Jul 27, 2003 5:57:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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im not sure if i like the punishment idea at all.

it would have to be *very* carefully balanced not to be annoying. even the slightest annoyance would jest be saying "arr, we allow ye to pillage merchants, but dont want that ye do". the current idea of having powerfull navy ships hunting you all the time that dont even give a reward when defeated surely sounds more like a pita than anything else to me.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 27, 2003 6:49:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I rather like the idea of island governors being able to determine whether or not they allow pirate vessels (Notorious Pirates) to trade. I don't think it should be impossible, but having certian islands known for "that sort of thing" could make things interesting.
[Jul 27, 2003 6:51:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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I am chewing over all this and reluctant to weigh in until my own thoughts are crystallised and then I've had a chance to argue them further with the brethren of the China Basin Coast (that's the stagnant creek near our offices in SF).

Magicing up money is really sketchy because of the exploit potential. I guess we could track all the crews you've fought and only magic up money for the same crew once a week -- but even then, that's exploit-prone and doesn't encourage the right behaviour.

I am more keen on a game or archipelago-wide Ladder that resets every week, tracking only PvP battles, with the top placers receiving a fine purse. This seems the least exploitable whilst having a reasonable periodicity to it. But it doesn't solve the problem of 'I beat a ship and want to get something from it.'

So let me think on it some more. As for the Trading stuff, we will hold onto that for a little bit longer, but the net intended result from it will be that pirates are incentivised to travel with lots of goods.

For this reason and others I am less keen on the Merchant/Pirate distinction. It would have to be very easy and profitable to be a merchant to make forgoing Pillaging worthwhile, and besides, I think it's healthier to combine the two into a balanced diet of pillage and trade.
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Ely



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Cleaver wrote: 
Magicing up money is really sketchy because of the exploit potential. I guess we could track all the crews you've fought and only magic up money for the same crew once a week -- but even then, that's exploit-prone and doesn't encourage the right behaviour.


Hmm, yeah, even with the timers in place between ships, I guess it's still open to be exploited by the truly dedicated...

Say a small sloop pays a magic sum of 1,000 per PvP engagement per unique ship duel per twenty-four hours. Someone could invest 60,000 or so PoE and buy ten small sloops, and then outfit each with their own crew of one pirate each. Easily done with alternate characters or accounts. He could then organize his minions to battle each other until every unique combination has been made. This would result in 45,000 PoE made in the first series of staged battles, and from then on every twenty-four hours they would be making the same. Very bad.

So is there a better way to do this? Some way, one with fewer loopholes (none would be nice), for the game to identify when two crews have had a genuine PvP battle, and award them accordingly? At the moment, I can't come up with one that isn't horribly complex and totally unreasonable.

Edit: Increasing the timers might work. Even if it only paid off to attack the Mindless Salmon (or whatever) once a week, it would still be better than never. Or maybe an extra invisible tag that lists how many times ships A and B have engaged over the last week, and the magic gold output was scaled based on rarity of the combination? This might deter gaming a handful of ships against each other regularly.
[Jul 27, 2003 11:11:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ely114 [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Please, the last thing I want to see is another convoluted trumped up system to get around the side-effects of the last system. I appreciate ye intentions with this, but Cleaver help me if I have to worry about all this baggage to attack a player!

One problem we have here is that the current system is far removed from what ye would really see from a bunch of pirates. What pirate sacks a ship only to take 10%? What pirate cares who whines about it? What pirate sacks a ship fer 10% then lets the crew sail away? Why in the world do I buy ships when I could jest take them?

I jest think the slap on the wrist booty is partially at the root of the problem. Arr, a new ship would be enough reward fer me to attack players. (Arr, stop ye whinin' already!) If not that, surely Old Spice would pay a handsome reward fer the safe return of Fredirico... Let me have e'ert comm and poe aboard the ship too, save maybe half the rum.

Fine if ye want to allow islands to set an option so that they simply won't sell goods to pirates not loyal to the governance (and this could include rum!). That makes sense. Ye would also want it public knowledge which islands do support pirates so that traders could avoid them. Maybe publish stats on player pillages about certain islands.

While making the rewards greater fer the pillage of a player ship, ye should also make the sastisfaction greater fer fightin' off such an attack. With islands rated by relative trader safety, ye are unlikely to encounter pirates near they home island. When they are defeated, ye should empty they holds and all poe and send the ship and its crew back to home port to simulate a death at sea.
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[Jul 28, 2003 7:21:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Ye know, in all honesty, the rewards fer pvp are enough in they own right now fer me to enjoy it. All it would take would be fer the Devs to make a public stand and tell all the yeller-spined whiners that ye can jest anticipate that ye will be pillaged in a pirate game.

It may change with the newbie influx, but in the past ye could just anticipate ye would be scorned by the player community fer having much fun with pvp. Arr, aye, a pirate would likely be scorned. But in a pirate game? I don't care how much poe ye tag to it, I will find it very unrewarding when it means ye in general shall be treated like a log in a whirlpool. And that is simply how it has been in this game since I started. PvP is the last thing ye want to do if ye have any hopes of walking away with a positive vibe. People take it more personally than killin' they dogs, they do.

And any serious effort to pvp on a regular basis leads to investigations of harassment.

Har, har. Don't get me wrong! O'er the weekend on me get-a-way, I decided I really don't give a poe who likes me. I intend to crack some skulls.
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[Jul 28, 2003 7:31:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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E'er since me an' Mar's little joke I have wanted to be able to capture player pirates and perchance hold them fer ransom. Methinks the satisfaction alone o'capturin' Silverbeard would be more'n enough fer me, ta say nothin' o' havin' him unavailable ta his crew fer the time I've got'im in irons.*

Also I've wondered at length at why a fully-laden trade ship can defend itself from brigand and take on e'en more into its hold. I always thought that having a hold size limitation would, ye know, mean somethin'.

Couple this with th' idea that ye should lose more (like nearly all) in PVP an' we got a recipie fer some serious fun. Especially if'n ye can't capture th' opposin' officer unless ye got space on yer ship fer him. Sailin' out wit' less'n full crews ta try an' capture an opposin' King? Har, I'm in.


*- [size=9]I'm sure he'd go quietly if'n I did e'er capture'im. I mean, nobody wantsta get hurt, now do they?
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Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
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-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Jul 28, 2003 7:46:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ely



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My issues regarding PvP certainly do not include making sure I'm not hated or that I don't hurt anyone's feelings. Keep that in mind when I say that raising the penalty on the loser isn't the way to go. While I am all for robbing the socks off people, that's just going to generate more outcry from the general player and less income for Three Rings.

Ditto on holding players against their will. That sort of mechanism just wont fly with most folks. Then we have dissent, moaning, crying, and eventually feature removal and a lot of wasted development.

Edit:

 
One problem we have here is that the current system is far removed from what ye would really see from a bunch of pirates. What pirate sacks a ship only to take 10%? What pirate cares who whines about it? What pirate sacks a ship fer 10% then lets the crew sail away? Why in the world do I buy ships when I could jest take them?


I've long felt the same, and absolutely agree that it's far removed from what real pirates did. Hell, pirates didn't attack other priates, they went after easy targets like slow moving merchant vessels or lightly manned sampans. But as the philosophy goes, fun over realism. There just aren't a lot of straightforward ways to make real piracy like that work and be mostly fun for everyone all at the same time.

Hence the solution may lie in "convoluted trumped up systems."
[Jul 28, 2003 9:18:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ely114 [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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I sure do HOPE ye gets that joke! Reply to this Post
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In me fantasy, captured pirates have to work on the (pending) 'captured' puzzle. Anyone who went quietly could also help out aboard ship. They'd not fight in swordfights though.

It should be fun ta be captured, jest a pain in the aft to th' captured pirate's flag/crew. Undesireable but still worthwhile fe all involved.

This I think would be th' ony way Fronsac could ever make money. H'd sweettalk th' ladies inta meetin' him aboard th' Haddock, th'n clap'em in irons an' ransom them home!

I bet he'd even have repeat customers. That'd call fer a quick ship renaming, to the "Stockholm" harharharhar!
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Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
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-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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muffy



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nuke banks, brigands, navy, whisking, and swabbies Reply to this Post
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I'm not sure why everyone is suggesting all these convoluted ways to encourage PvP when it seems fairly obvious. If PvP is the goal, then why do brigands continue to exist? I know they used to be there when there were maybe 10 people on, and PvP was moderately unlikely to happen, even if ye tried, but now that there are regularly hundreds of people on, and dozens of player ships at sea, they seem uneccessary. Similarly, with the docks constantly swarming with junior Pirates, swabbies are unnecessary. To make PvP financially viable, pirates will have to sail with money in their pockets, and banks pretty much make this unnecessary (except for traders, of course). Once a pirate reaches a certain level of cash, they could be allowed to bury some amount of it (not all), where of course it is vulnerable to treasure hunters. Ferries are fine, but should actuallly sail between islands at set times, as with the old navy ships, and ye should then carry yer cash on them, making them attractive targets for pillage. Navy serves no apparent function in the PvP world, nor does whisking. The Black Ship and the grace period seem useful for preventing extreme harassment of one player by another, although ye might instead want to simply increase the chance of the Black Ship showing up each time one ship attacks the same other ship (resetting probability once the Black Ship has appeared, of course).
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Penndalla

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Very good points, Muffy. I am affraid ship fights would be too rare at this point with no npps, though. Maybe this would be feasible when we hit full population.

One problem I see is that the blackship effectively renders 90% of player targets out of reach. It would work better if some skeletons just clamored up from the seabed to make the fight more even.
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[Jul 28, 2003 10:42:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
Soma



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First off penn (and other pvp-lovers) yer simply not thinking about the grand picture. Some ammount of hand holding is nescesary to create a game which is fun on ALL levels of play. That said, while I don't go out actively seeking players to thrash, I sure get a thrill out of when they come after little old me and I take them out with unfair odds (let's just say yarr should know better by now, likewise to the dragons.) On to what I'm seeing that could fix things up a bit on all fronts.

For one, I'm quite enthused about the JR flag flying. I see this as the ideal 'fix' in the system, the sign that you're up for some higher stakes pvp. Again, building on previous ideas, this flag is something that could be taken down at any time, but only raised when in your HOME port. To raise the flag, ye'd need 1k (just throwing out a random figure, though it seems about right to me) for each player (would newbies count here? that one is a bit tough) .. (not nescesarily COMING from each player, merely representative) in the ship's hold, and each player would need 2 unworn items (to lose, in the case of a loss). Incorporating a bit of the skelly structure would add a little variety to the plunder won, I'm thinking, as far as item loss goes. (1 item lost per player per loss). Call the plunder 40% on a win, along with those items, 25% of hold stock (aside from poe, which was at 40%).. how's that sounding?

Along with the JR ye could still keep the current stakes for attacking players not running the flag, though I'd think to restrict that only JR ships could engage a player vessel. Why's that? When we reach large numbers and viable trade, ship tracking might become an actual problem.. we don't need a fleet of small sloops harrying a larger vessel manned merely for trade.

As I see it, ye've got your checks and balances, your excitement, your loot, your high stakes.. anything missing?

***EDIT

Forgot a few points I wished to add, brain gets 'a whirring and bits start leaking out. With the high stakes, we need a bit more gank control, thus I'd propose a pvp rating and a change in overall color threat system when flying the flag. I'd say largely colors ought to be varied on PVP ranking, though a touch of sea battle and swordsmanship would seem fitting.. that's that.
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Soma
Castaway of Alpha
Survivor of Old Spice & Nyx's Scions
Officer of Black Death
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Soma at Jul 28, 2003 10:55:42 AM]
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Ely



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Chopping the game up with a hatchet and completely obliterating the PvNPP game didn't really approach me as the "obvious" solution. There isn't a whole lot keeping both modes from being fun and viable at the same time, in the same world.

Besides, money has to come from somewhere, and brigands seem like the best solution (and the most fun for players, generally speaking). I certainly don't want to deal with players minting currency.
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