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Perlandria

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Project Codename: Gilthead - Play Now! Reply to this Post
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A furnishing GCP Proposal.
http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead

Play it now prototype - http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html

Designers: Perlandria and EmberLeo
Coder: Chiendd
Artists: EmberLeo and Perlandria's boyfriend (who draws most of Perlandria's avatar icons)

A block stacking game with lots of strategy and variable scoring.

The idea started two days ago with a discussion of penny stacking and tinkertoys and just got more interesting from there. We are beginning the code design phase and have a strong team and a clear vision. Our EXCELLENT coder is champing (chomping? clomping?) at the bit.
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
----------------------------------------
[Edit 2 times, last edit by Galene at May 4, 2008 12:55:17 AM]
[Apr 17, 2008 2:22:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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Re: Project Codename: Gilthead Reply to this Post
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Having read up a bit on the preferred game design for crafting puzzles - It seems they prefer crafting puzzles to be something you can do faster as you get better at them. That being the case, I think we may want to switch from the Candle Timer to a simple 3 rounds model.

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
[Apr 17, 2008 2:57:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Perlandria

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Re: Project Codename: Gilthead Reply to this Post
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We've been scribbling all over the Wiki.

I actually have a question for our 20 or so page views.

Do you feel that having both different table top goals and different leg length ways to meet those goal to be too much variability?
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
[Apr 17, 2008 2:45:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
Fiddler

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Re: Project Codename: Gilthead Reply to this Post
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I like the basic idea but there's a couple concerns.

1) There doesn't seem to be enough risk involved. It seems a bit too easy to just wait until you get the piece you need. for the best return.

2) Your example image is 600 by 600 and the grain is already a bit hard to distinguish. The playable area of the puzzles is limited to 450 by 600, so try shrinking your game board to those sizes and see how well you do. In the same vein there are problems with using shape, and color, and pattern to distinguish pieces. All the other games use shape or pattern to distinguish pieces so as to accommodate colorblind players.
----------------------------------------
Orsino, Viridian ocean
Forum-mute: your best friend
Whitewyvern wrote: 
The only high end goals are those you set for yourself. What happens to anyone else is irrelevant.

[Apr 17, 2008 5:45:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Avatar by Stimmhorn [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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Hmm, I think the problem of risk is actually why we origionally thought the Candle timer was a better measure. We'll have to ponder what kind of mechanism would both up the risk and still allow the game to go faster or slower depending on skill.

I think a better artist (or me if I paid closer attention to that particular detail) could make the grain easier to discern.

That said, we haven't yet considered what it does it do to the game if we remove that element entirely, and make each texture unique to a color, so folks can distinguish them even if they're colorblind. I'm afraid it removes a necessary layer of strategy, but there may be other ways to compensate for that.

Hmm, we've already got it that once you place a piece in your workbench you have to use it to clear it, and once you place a piece above, it's stuck. What if there's a plenty-long-enough interval after which if you've made no moves at all one of the pieces on your board pops out, and the pieces above it settle down the leg accordingly, thereby ruining whatever patterns you'd arranged?

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by EmberLeo at Apr 17, 2008 6:02:48 PM]
[Apr 17, 2008 5:59:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Perlandria

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Re: Project Codename: Gilthead Reply to this Post
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Ember, I went and had Kensan look at the roughs, since he breathes game design.
His first impressions (posted without lock in a public blog) on the color blindness were these:

Well, the first thing I notice when I desaturated the image is that the different pieces are not very clearly different enough. While I realize that we are not talking a pure color blindness often, shades of grey usually are a good indication on which way to go. Right now, the problem is that pieces are toned a certain way, and while their hue is good, the shadow doesn't make enough of a difference.


Some thoughts on how to help out.

1) Different the shadow of the colored pieces. Yellow should be 0, Red should be about 15, and blue should be about 30. That will show up no matter what color blindness you have.

2) When you have your match/lock, either Pixel lock them (In a dotted pattern), or make that area appear in stripes, so that it is obvious that they are a set piece, and are different from normal pieces.

I think these steps would solve most of your issues.

----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
----------------------------------------
[Edit 2 times, last edit by Perlandria at Apr 17, 2008 11:21:57 PM]
[Apr 17, 2008 11:18:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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The former had already occurred to me, but having an exact number to run with is very helpful, thank you.

I don't understand the second point?

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
[Apr 18, 2008 12:42:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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On a separate note, Chien has started coding the stuff that will be about the same regardless of the bits we're working on. I realize I'm the worlds slowest coder, myself, but I occasionally forget how fast he can turn something useful out - he's got about 300 lines of code out already just from today.

The "sushi boat" parts are looking good. He's going to work on the blueprint and workbench bits next. All this is just using little generated squares. I need to get better art to him ASAP so he has something to work with in terms of image rendering, but that's pretty minor.

He says at the rate he's going, he can probably get an alpha prototype done in a couple weeks.

Is that a good time frame?

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
[Apr 18, 2008 12:49:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Perlandria

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I think the second point was coding. That we highlight combos as they are made, instead of expecting people to mentally keep track of them and perhaps declare them with special announcements during the scoring.
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
[Apr 18, 2008 1:16:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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Ohh, hmm. I think that's the kind of thing we can implement after a round of testing without it, to see if it's needful. My mental tab is that patterns don't announce themselves in Shipwrightery, and it would seriously defeat the purpose if they did. My sense of things is that our game is more parallel to that. That is, if we can make the elements work right with the art.

Returning to the first point - one of my concerns is that for the game to be hard enough we'll need more colors than can be easily discernible in greyscale even if I get the starting greys right. I'd love to talk to Kensan about this in more detail. Can you introduce us in email?

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
[Apr 18, 2008 1:26:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Perlandria

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He's the name I mentioned at the blog place we are both familiar with.
Also, some historical information from this forum about color blind awareness that has palette links in it:

http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=4
specifically
http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=4#48

We weren't going to have the silhouette of the red medium thick medium grain concave piece be exactly the same art as the silhouette pf the yellow medium thick medium grain concave piece in cleaned up beta testing anyhow? Since we have to load unique art for both anyway. With the overall shape being concave, we still have some wiggle room in the silhouette that may allow us to make the harder to see colors easy to differentiate. The simple shapes we have now were to get the concept up and for alpha testing.

I think it is a workable problem with many solutions, some of which we can stack to help pieces pop even more.
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
[Apr 18, 2008 2:23:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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I want to keep the shapes themselves the same so that it's clear what we mean by "matching", but I'm having pretty good luck with background textures to differentiate pieces from eachother. If we always use the same background texture for the same color, we should be ok.

My main issue right now is making grain clearly distinguishable on our smallest piece - thin/concave.

But I think I've done all I can for tonight with this. I'm getting crosseyed ;)

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
[Apr 18, 2008 2:49:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Perlandria

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Re: Project Codename: Gilthead Reply to this Post
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Waa you are harshing my obfuscation!
Griefer!
Have a good night.
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
[Apr 18, 2008 2:56:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
Fiddler

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Re: Project Codename: Gilthead Reply to this Post
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Here's a thought. You mention "boxes of pieces" on the conveyor where a player would be forced to to pick up all two or three at the same time. The reduced workbench (six pieces wide) give me this idea. What if A) You could only pick up a box if you could fit it on the workbench intact? That is, if slots 1,2, and 4 are filled on the bench then you couldn't pick up a three piece box. or B) Continuing on from there, what if you could then only place a box intact across the columns? This might make for some strategic decision-making.

I'm not sure I like the idea of completing three sets of blueprints to finish. It feels too much like an arbitrary number. I think a game like this suits itself better to a timer.

Finally, how are you going to be coding the demo? If it's in Flash I'd like to recommend taking the time now to learn how to integrate it into Whirled. The handful of games that are there are getting hundreds of plays per day and it would be invaluable in testing and gaining feedback.

Edit: I see you've added thickness of the piece as another attribute. So now we've got shape, size, color, and grain, with potential knots to add to the grain. Since a player only has to match in one dimension I think you can drop one of those attributes. Before deciding which try making the pieces wider, you do have the room on the blueprint.
----------------------------------------
Orsino, Viridian ocean
Forum-mute: your best friend
Whitewyvern wrote: 
The only high end goals are those you set for yourself. What happens to anyone else is irrelevant.

----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Fiddler at Apr 18, 2008 7:52:17 AM]
[Apr 18, 2008 7:48:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Avatar by Stimmhorn [Link]  Go to top 
Perlandria

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Here's a thought. You mention "boxes of pieces" on the conveyor where a player would be forced to to pick up all two or three at the same time. The reduced workbench (six pieces wide) give me this idea. What if A) You could only pick up a box if you could fit it on the workbench intact? That is, if slots 1,2, and 4 are filled on the bench then you couldn't pick up a three piece box. or B) Continuing on from there, what if you could then only place a box intact across the columns? This might make for some strategic decision-making.


I think EmberLeo wanted people to be able to organize on the workbench, as pieces are picked up, as they needed for personal playing style. This suggestion, although great, is contrary to that. But we'll keep it around! I think Chien already has his plan for coding where you even get to grab a piece out of a box to put on the blueprint and the other pieces in the box go into the work area so we may have to default to this anyhow since an automatic load would scupper organizing. :D

 
I'm not sure I like the idea of completing three sets of blueprints to finish. It feels too much like an arbitrary number. I think a game like this suits itself better to a timer.


Okay! As you probably remember we started out with a candle timer. After researching more into what was expected of us, EmberLeo noticed a preference for task based and not time based endings. I'd love to return to the original Candle timer.

 
Finally, how are you going to be coding the demo? If it's in Flash I'd like to recommend taking the time now to learn how to integrate it into Whirled. The handful of games that are there are getting hundreds of plays per day and it would be invaluable in testing and gaining feedback.


We'll point Chien at this suggestion. Its brilliant.

 
Edit: I see you've added thickness of the piece as another attribute. So now we've got shape, size, color, and grain, with potential knots to add to the grain. Since a player only has to match in one dimension I think you can drop one of those attributes. Before deciding which try making the pieces wider, you do have the room on the blueprint.


It wasn't an add. It just wasn't clear to you in the alpha art. Sorry about that.

Thickness is how we tell you how strong a piece is. It is fundamental to the concept of the game. It is THE score you need to hit.

Color, shape and grain are multipliers. If someone doesn't do anything to match color, shape or grain they can still win as long as the (ugly) legs are strong enough to hold up the table top. If anything, I'd drop grain. It is the hardest to see. And if we have a variety of table tops, then the game will be plenty variable without grain. Its just, boxes with knoted pieces are such a lovely work area barrelstoppers. :D

Shape = Strength = Win condition
Color = added value to score by piece
Horizontal Shape Matching = added value to score by sets as a score multipler
Vertical Color Matching = added value to score by sets as a score multiplier
Vertical Grain Matching = added value to score by sets as a score multiplier
One of the many ideal boards would be each leg a different but solid color and grain, with each level having horizontal shape matching across the legs, the sum total of the shapes meeting (and exceeding) the win condition, and at least one Cedar Gilthead Lion in there for the extra boost.
I am obviously influenced by Maj Jong scoring, where a 40 point hand can hit limit if it exploits the right multipliers (same suit, all nobles, matches an accepted special hand etc.)

If this explanation makes more sense, I'll edit the Wiki.

Thank you very much for taking the time to look at our proposal. Your observations are excellent for highlighting what we didn't address, or didn't explain well enough. We really appreciate it.

Perlandria
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
[Apr 18, 2008 11:51:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
Fiddler

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Re: Project Codename: Gilthead Reply to this Post
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I'm not sure I like the idea of completing three sets of blueprints to finish. It feels too much like an arbitrary number. I think a game like this suits itself better to a timer.


Okay! As you probably remember we started out with a candle timer. After researching more into what was expected of us, EmberLeo noticed a preference for task based and not time based endings. I'd love to return to the original Candle timer.

Two things to support this. 1)With the plan as it is now, old pieces drop off the end of the conveyor and new pieces are added periodically, without any input from the player. What's to stop me from sitting at the game and waiting until the perfect piece comes trundling by? A time limit to move would be ideal here. 2) Right now the crafting puzzles have two with a time limit and two without. If the Ringers implement the weaving and tailoring puzzles as prototyped then we'll be at two timed and four un-timed. Adding a third timed puzzle would be nice to maintain a bit of balance.
Insead of the timer being on the whole game, make the timer a "time to move" timer, and perhaps add a fifth column. Finishing all the columns finishes the game.


 
 
Edit: I see you've added thickness of the piece as another attribute. So now we've got shape, size, color, and grain, with potential knots to add to the grain. Since a player only has to match in one dimension I think you can drop one of those attributes. Before deciding which try making the pieces wider, you do have the room on the blueprint.


It wasn't an add. It just wasn't clear to you in the alpha art. Sorry about that.

Thickness is how we tell you how strong a piece is. It is fundamental to the concept of the game. It is THE score you need to hit.

Color, shape and grain are multipliers. If someone doesn't do anything to match color, shape or grain they can still win as long as the (ugly) legs are strong enough to hold up the table top. If anything, I'd drop grain. It is the hardest to see. And if we have a variety of table tops, then the game will be plenty variable without grain. Its just, boxes with knoted pieces are such a lovely work area barrelstoppers. :D

I see. When I first looked at your initial images I thought the concave, straight, and convex pieces were the thin, medium, and thick.

 
Shape = Strength = Win condition
Color = added value to score by piece
Horizontal Shape Matching = added value to score by sets as a score multipler
Vertical Color Matching = added value to score by sets as a score multiplier
Vertical Grain Matching = added value to score by sets as a score multiplier
One of the many ideal boards would be each leg a different but solid color and grain, with each level having horizontal shape matching across the legs, the sum total of the shapes meeting (and exceeding) the win condition, and at least one Cedar Gilthead Lion in there for the extra boost.
I am obviously influenced by Maj Jong scoring, where a 40 point hand can hit limit if it exploits the right multipliers (same suit, all nobles, matches an accepted special hand etc.)

If this explanation makes more sense, I'll edit the Wiki.

Thank you very much for taking the time to look at our proposal. Your observations are excellent for highlighting what we didn't address, or didn't explain well enough. We really appreciate it.

Perlandria


One thing I'm not entirely clear on - can you take any piece, any one at all, and place it on top of the stack? Or will you be limited to pieces that match in some way?

I keep thinking that a bit of inspiration from Freecell would make this puzzle great.
----------------------------------------
Orsino, Viridian ocean
Forum-mute: your best friend
Whitewyvern wrote: 
The only high end goals are those you set for yourself. What happens to anyone else is irrelevant.

[Apr 18, 2008 12:27:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Avatar by Stimmhorn [Link]  Go to top 
Perlandria

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I have no idea why the quote marks aren't working... So I took out all the previous conversation...

Yes, we did worry about sitting around forever to wait for the perfect piece. We pondered about about limiting the randomness of the pieces floating by, but that was only based on the work area. Which would do nothing for someone patiently fishing the river. :D In any case, I would be delighted to have the return of the candle.

And I am just fine with the candle being To Move rather than To Finish. I know EmberLeo mentioned a carpentry like pop-out of a bottom piece which would move the whole leg down one as a potential penalty for ignoring time. I'd rather have the visual of a rat coming by and stealing a bottom piece (either at random, last leg worked on, highest value or most completed leg, to be determined) but that is just window dressing.

I think a 5th column gets in the way of the visual of table legs.

Ahh I didn't understand your observation about Shape, although it remains true that thickness and silhouette have always been there. That is because there are at least 9 strengths. Not 3 strengths. And they run from thin concave to thick convex. With grain that would be what? 27? strengths? from thin concave rough grain to thick convex fine grain.

And I realize it sounds like I am contradicting myself. That is because I am not being clear to you, not that EmberLeo and I don't have a consistent plan. Sorry. Shape has two parts. Thickness is ONLY scoring. Silhouette is scoring because it is part of the thickness scale AND a multiplier because it is how matches are made.

I think I see how the confusion happened in the alpha art. The very first pieces drawn were thin and concave, medium and straight and thick and convex. It might have been clearer to have a thick concave example from the start, but EmberLeo has all 9 silhouettes up now so hopefully, going forward, it will be more clear.

Right now, yes, you can put ANY piece on the top of any stack. You could totally speed through the puzzle by taking everything that comes by and putting it up on the blueprint. We have talked about number crunching the randomizer to tilt it slightly towards weakness, so if you do that you'll have a higher chance of booching. That is also why there are so many multipliers, as reward for strategy (and prettiness, 'cus who doesn't want a fancy table?)

We'll talk to Chien about how much extra work it would take to have a free choice demo and a forcematch (Freecell) limited demo. Whereas both EmberLeo and Chien have degrees in coding, I just know mark up languages so I have no idea if that would be asking for a whole re-work or just adding a tiny module.

...

The more I think about it, the more I want to remove grain from the regular game pieces. It is visually confusing, and we already have a vertical matching scheme in the use of color. Taking out grain does not automatically get in the way of still having Knothole pieces. But I haven't talked this over with EmberLeo yet.
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Perlandria at Apr 18, 2008 1:40:23 PM]
[Apr 18, 2008 1:12:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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WAH! Okay.

1: Timers: Chien loves the Rat idea. We were talking last night about the possibilities. Things like - the rat's nose poking out with a mild warning sound if you take too long. If you still take too long, you get the whole rat head and a slightly more warning sound. If you still don't do anything, you get that WARNING! sound, and the rat runs by, stealing a piece from the bottom of a column, with preference to a column that has more than one piece, so it's more likely to ruin your pattern.

Personally, I love the rat, and am ambivalent about the candle. Especially because a candles imply longer than we want folks to take - I don't know of anything other than birthday candles that burn down in a matter of minutes, so my psychological reaction to a candle is that I have a while. Rats move fast.

OMG! There's a RAT! creates a greater sense of urgency.

But it depends on what we're timing. The Rat idea is good if what we're putting pressure on is individual moves. The Candle idea could be how long you have for any one blueprint, but there is still the question as to what determines the game is over?

2: Shape. It's still just one thing, really, I swear. We simply have more shapes than the three little demo shapes we showed before - which was always intended. The idea is that thickness clues the player in on the strength of the piece. Perlandria - do we really want 9 total strengths, or is 3 strengths okay, such that the concave/convex/straight aspect is only for visual matching, rather than another modifier? I'm thinking if we have 9 distinct shape-based strengths, we may not need to factor Grain into the strength after all, because there's enough variety already.

3: Matching. I had in mind that the matching of shapes would be exact matches. Perlandria has described relative matches. We need to discuss in more detail what would constitute a match, but the underlying concept is clear - horizontal matching is purely shape based.

4: I believe Chien is writing in Java. It's possible he's using Perl or C. Flash is not one of his skills.

Did I miss anything?

Oh, I missed Per's comment on removing grain. I'm definitely okay with skipping grain in general. I think our concept needs very little adjusting without grain in the picture, and I'm having a hell of a time making pieces where the grain is visible on the 55x55 scale.

Do we want to keep knotted pieces, though? That, at least, is probably easy enough to make show.

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by EmberLeo at Apr 18, 2008 2:30:08 PM]
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Perlandria

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3: Matching. I had in mind that the matching of shapes would be exact matches. Perlandria has described relative matches. We need to discuss in more detail what would constitute a match, but the underlying concept is clear - horizontal matching is purely shape based.
--Ember--

No, you had it right that absolute matching is required for the bonus. I was being confusing because of my mental tab of 9 strengths. Which are two different things served by some of the same elements in the art. Which is where I think the confusion comes in because some things are doing double duty.
We're still on the same page! No worry!
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
[Apr 18, 2008 2:38:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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Hmm, Freecell? Meaning that placement choices are limited by what's already in place?

I see a few problems with this, the greatest being that if you have a piece in your hand, a full bench, and nowhere to put the piece, you don't just suck it up that your score will drop, you've booched entirely, and not even in a visually satisfying way. I haven't seen that kind of thing in other PP games.

Hmm, except perhaps in Blacksmithing, but I don't think that's comparable, because the mechanisms are otherwise so different. In any case, that would make the game a great deal more like Drinking than I would like.

I admit, I've been keeping Shipwrightery and Carpentry more in mind. If nothing else, it makes logistical sense for furniture making to involve similar skills as ship making and floor making.

All that said, if people really find the game too easy without it when we've got a playable test, we can always consider adding a check in at that point. The variables will already be in place for scoring purposes.

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
[Apr 18, 2008 2:49:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Perlandria

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We both have busy weekends. We've discussed the following changes which will be not updated in the wiki until probably Monday.

A lexicon of terms ( I've been using language imprecisely as I am not a coder. This will help. )
A clean sweep of the template to remove chatter and strike throughs.
Archiving defunct concepts such as grain on the sandbox.
...

Concepts from today's discussion I want to get down for Monday's revision.

- Visually thin convex is similar enough to medium concave to have the same first impression of strength. So the scale of 9 shapes would go 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7-ish.
- As knots are a flaw to shape and not to color, knots will only effect piece strenth and not piece value. Probably strength 0.
- for sandbox, taking grain out removes link between strength and value and will help Perlandria use the proper scuppering terms :D
- Placement of scale? Top? Side? On blueprint between legs? Crowding the workbench area? Crowding the sushi boat river?
- Placement of rat overall and variability of alerts. Right? Left? Both? (If scale is on blueprint, will rat come out of bottom of scale?
- Potential ways to choose rat damage for game testing. Piece removal by last placed, most valuable, highest, strongest. OR! new - Rat gnaws a knothole reducing piece to strength 0 but not messing up pattern.
- Potential to choose rat timing for game testing, if we are having a pick your game intro screen anyhow.
- Potential to choose blueprint for game testing, if we are having a pick your game intro screen anyhow.
- after revision have technical writer friend review page for most glaring problems.

After Monday's revision of Wiki:
- Work on color-blind friendly background textures to reach minimum
goal of 5 and hopeful goal of 10.

And I get the feeling I'm missing a few points. But that is what edit is for :D
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
----------------------------------------
[Edit 2 times, last edit by Perlandria at Apr 18, 2008 5:29:54 PM]
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Perlandria

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... am ambivalent about the candle. Especially because a candles imply longer than we want folks to take - I don't know of anything other than birthday candles that burn down in a matter of minutes, so my psychological reaction to a candle is that I have a while. Rats move fast.

OMG! There's a RAT! creates a greater sense of urgency.

But it depends on what we're timing. The Rat idea is good if what we're putting pressure on is individual moves. The Candle idea could be how long you have for any one blueprint, but there is still the question as to what determines the game is over?
...

--Ember--


I know you'd remember this if today wasn't packed and this weekend non-stop. Originally, we had the candle be the game length marker. You have this much time to do as many finished blueprints as you can knock out. The game ended when you ran out of time, and the table you were working on didn't count. Kind of like not setting off sailing combos before the grapple (Scupper!). Your game score was the total for all completed blueprints scores, kind of like how each pour in Alchemy has its own bonuses, but the bottles as a whole have stars.

Which brings up a point. New idea. We're squished for width but not for height. Do we want another horizontal area that has little completed icons so you can keep track of how many you've done? The icons can be the score color of the scale when that blueprint was completed so you have an idea of how you are doing over the session. (hmm, this is a lot of art. Maybe squishing the scale on the workbench, or sushi boat piece river, or between the table legs would make an icon the right size to be reused with a session marking area like this. You literally get the exact same scale art as when you finished the table.)
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Perlandria at Apr 18, 2008 5:53:55 PM]
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Fiddler

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Something about the direction this is going is bugging me. I almost want to print out a bunch of pieces on paper, color them in with crayons, and try playing it on my kitchen table. I feel like I need more information to accomplish that though.
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Orsino, Viridian ocean
Forum-mute: your best friend
Whitewyvern wrote: 
The only high end goals are those you set for yourself. What happens to anyone else is irrelevant.

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Perlandria

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EmberLeo and I are being extremely chatty right now partially so EmberLeo can get to a place where she stops having dreams about the project and stops having ideas while driving.

We're pretty much there, and this will quiet down a lot while we wait for Chien to do his thing.

Also, as a coder, she is focused down onto a single layer: what we need to figure out so Chien can work.

I'm jumping back and forth on layers of the project, 'cus I'm holding the this will change that, this will do that, in a different way than she is. She and I understand each other. But the way I move from coding mechanic to usability idea amuses her. I jump ahead, then back, then ahead. Is my jumpiness what is bugging you?

If you want to play on your kitchen table...
None of these numbers are the game code values and percentages that have been crunched.
And EmberLeo has not okayed this as a VERY rough and fast way to get the idea of how to play the game.

Arbitrarily, as in we haven't figured out percentages to see what makes challenging game play, go ahead and print out four sets of her 9 shapes. Color them, again arbitrarily, yellow, yellow, red and blue. Assign some random but sequential strength number to them, from thinnest to thickest, I'd suggest 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7. Assign a value to the colors, arbitrarily yellow is basic, red is skilled and blue is expert. Print out the 6 high blueprint. Arbitrarily, lets aim for pieces to have to be at least strength average better than 3, so your table strength goal is 72. Put all your pieces in a bag/cup/hat to randomize them and pull them out into the sushi boat river area one by one. Fill the legs from the bottom up, from the river or from river piece saved on your workbench. When all 24 spaces are filled, that table is done. Add up the strength of the 24 pieces. If it is over 72, you won. If it is under 72, you booched it. If you used mostly yellow pieces you did basic. If you used mostly red pieces, you did skilled, if you used mostly blue pieces you did Excellent. To fake the bonuses for matching, if all table legs are solid colors (but not matching colors) and/or if table legs have matched sets across, and/or you made a table with a strength over 100, move your skill result up one class. So all yellow matching would be skilled.

That won't score ANYTHING like the way multiplier will work in the real game, but it will give you a start to how it would play.
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
[Apr 18, 2008 9:16:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
Fiddler

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I think the vagueness of the table strength and the multipliers is what bugs me currently. I'm going to come back to this in a couple weeks and see what you've settled on by then. They feel more like ideals rather than concrete puzzle solutions.

In the meantime you've inspired me to continue work on a Towers of Hanoi style stacking puzzle that I've had in the back of my mind for a while. I hope you don't mind if I work on a competing stacking puzzle.
----------------------------------------
Orsino, Viridian ocean
Forum-mute: your best friend
Whitewyvern wrote: 
The only high end goals are those you set for yourself. What happens to anyone else is irrelevant.

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Perlandria

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Ahh. Yes, formulas are not coded yet (Chien may correct me...)
For being basically a week old, I hope we are doing well.

Competition is good for the game as a whole. Towers is a fun game. I look forward to seeing your puzzle!

Thank you, again, for taking the time to look at our work so far. Ditching the woodgrain, being reassured we can have a time marker, and pointing out we need to be more color blind aware are all things this puzzle needed, and we'll keep your other excellent observations in mind as we get to areas and layers that are more effected by them.
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
[Apr 19, 2008 11:43:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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I'm afraid I haven't tried to give a concrete description of table strength here before because I felt we were discussing things on a more conceptual level than that. I expect we will tweak this stuff as we go, and figure out the best solutions once we have a better idea how humans other than us actually interact with the puzzle format.

In other words, I do have numbers in my head for most of this stuff, but until I can sit down with Chien and Per, my numbers are only mine. I can make out charts and figure out multipliers for everything easily enough, but I want to make sure I'm headed in the right direction before taking on that level of detail work, you know?

WRT to the potential for different difficulty levels determined by the thickness of tabletop (i.e. the same blueprint requiring stronger or weaker legs to avoid the booch), I had in mind three levels.

The average level would have a strength requirement based on a table made entirely of the straight/medium pieces. 96 pts minimum to avoid booch.
The harder level would assume half straight/medium, half straight/thick pieces - 120 pts
The easier level would assume half straight/medium, half straight/thin pieces. 72 pts

(Points assuming the values of the 9 shapes are 123 345 567 for thin/concave through thick/convex.)

Does that help?

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
[Apr 20, 2008 8:19:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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We've thoroughly revised the Wiki (all hail Perlandria!), including updating the screen shots to show our current progress in producing a prototype applet for the game (all hail the Code Puppy!).

[Edited to add] While I was at it, I updated the 9 shapes and the other example pieces (except for the 3 color example, which shows the texture backgrounds the way I want to use them, but still shows grain, which we've eliminated.)

http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by EmberLeo at Apr 23, 2008 2:35:44 AM]
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Perlandria

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Play it Now!
Recommendations for slower systems: Let the applet load. It may take a moment.
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Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
[May 3, 2008 2:26:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
EmberLeo

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Further recommendation for slow systems: skip the piRat option.

Dude, Chien totally ROCKS - not that I'm biased or anything :)

--Ember--
----------------------------------------
Furnishing Project - Gilthead
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
Thread: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
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