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Frizzled



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Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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At the moment it's really hard to take a ship out pillaging - I'd love to get a bunch of newbies together and show them the ropes, but I just don't have the cash to support the beating we're going to take on the high seas.

The problem seems to be that the game rates ships according to the number of people on them, not their respective skills.

Can the skill of the players on the ship be taken into accound (maybe in some weighted form)? A ship full of newbies shouldn't be green to an equal ship of players armed with swords worth 2-5k each (which is exactly what happened last night, we outnumbered Yarrington's ship and he still only took one casuality, we weren't the attacker either).

I don't think this system is necessary for players who have been in 10+ sword fights, but it would be nice if a player who hadn't been in that many only counted as half a crew member (or something like that) when it came to determining what ships you could attack (or be attacked by).

Just a thought ... this is my first post on the boards so I could be wildly off base.

_f
[Jul 24, 2003 9:09:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ely



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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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Can the skill of the players on the ship be taken into accound (maybe in some weighted form)?


As far as I know, that's actually exactly how it works now.

Still, though, you are correct; the system doesn't accurately display the difficulty of all ships. There's still some tweaking to do.
[Jul 24, 2003 9:14:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ely114 [Link]  Go to top 
Bluebeard
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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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We are aware of this problem. First to clarify, the ships color is determined by the number of pirates adjusted by their skill as well. In the next release (that we are testing right now and will be out soon) newbies will NOT count towards your ship's color. This means that having newbies on board can only help you, and can't hurt you. They will not cause swabbies to leave the ship either like normal pirates do.
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[Jul 24, 2003 10:33:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Rengor



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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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Im curious of how that will work. Not that I know a really good solution either.

I like the basic system that it's based entirely on skill. But right now my Sea Battle rating flies up and down all the time even if I've played since last year (ok there's been some rating resets in there). Alot of sea battles end with the enemy ship having another color after the battle whether you won or lost. If the rating was more stable like swordfighting that would help a great deal to properly calculate the strengths.

If newbies doesn't count, can it be abused to make alts to count as newbies to give a low con status while these player's skill is actually much better? Will the balance be altered so a ship of really experienced players will have a hard time and will need newbies onboard to "properly" balance?
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[Jul 24, 2003 11:11:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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how do you want to prevent serious abusal of that system? for starters, will "newbie" be an account-wide rating or will ursela just have to log on her freshly created alt and not be counted?

even then, in the pay per play game yer common powerplayer will likely get a secondary account, anyway.. what if he keeps that one newbie? will there be a timelimit on being flagged as newbie? or an experience limit?


sidenote:
actually, they still can hurt by going solo on an npp, feeding him with ammunition and not having the strikes to finish him up.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 24, 2003 11:14:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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"army of newbies" Reply to this Post
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Ye weren't thrilled by the army of 'able' npps on a brig. If newbies don't count AT ALL towards a ship's might, ye'll see exactly the same problem. I fill me brig with newbies, then attack all these "red" small sloops. The best fighters in the ocean went down under a pile of me and 19 'able' npps - the same thing is going to happen with the brig (or larger) full of newbies. And they're not gonna learn fightin' skills from that, just dogpiling.

Newbies should count SOME towards might - maybe 2-1 or something.
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[Jul 25, 2003 1:57:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
akebia



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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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Is "Brig Full O' Newbies" an expected feature of the production-version game, or is it just a side-effect of the beta-testing influx?

I think the fix for this should be just like the current fix for the strained economy: temporary. Introduce some new brigands now and then but don't change the ruleset. The problem isn't that newbies are skewing the ratings; the problem is that the phenomenon of fifty newbies on a boat is new and there aren't many brigands of the appropriate difficulty level.

We're loading twenty newbies onto a brig because we have a student-teacher ratio of 20 to 1. In time, this should balance out to, what, 5 to 1 at the worst, and then we'd run training runs in sloops. This crazy fad of brigloads will probably pass.
[Jul 25, 2003 2:29:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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Cleaver has as much as told me that the 25 per hour (or some such) is a permanent fixture. There will be the 30 day trail accounts on the production servers, so there will always be lots of newbies about. It won't be as big a deal once the experienced player base is in place.

However, for now, newbies not counting and the PPA war frigate actually being able to find targets to fight would be a good thing. Faile isn't going to abuse it any how, and it will make the training go better if the newbies can get pumped up on some victories.
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Pennsuedo

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[Jul 25, 2003 2:43:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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Penndalla wrote: 

However, for now, newbies not counting and the PPA war frigate actually being able to find targets to fight would be a good thing. Faile isn't going to abuse it any how, and it will make the training go better if the newbies can get pumped up on some victories.


It's odd, it's like the "matching" brigands hide when we go out. When I'm out in me small sloop, all I see are giant ships. If I take me large sloop, suddenly there are very small ships, but also giant ones; nothing in the middle. Apparently when ye go out with yer frigate, the giant ones go and hide.
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[Jul 25, 2003 2:50:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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We need a "Summon Green NPP" button that can be used every 30 minutes in addition to the regular targets. Or maybe a "Summon Club Fantastico" would do the trick. Everyone else could have a "Summon the Lubbers" button.
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Pennsuedo

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[Jul 25, 2003 3:00:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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Penndalla wrote: 
We need a "Summon Green NPP" button that can be used every 30 minutes in addition to the regular targets.


You may not be too far off from an idea Jack had... it's a good one...
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[Jul 25, 2003 3:21:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
akebia



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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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Penndalla wrote: 
Cleaver has as much as told me that the 25 per hour (or some such) is a permanent fixture.


Sure. Twenty-five per hour isn't the tough part. Bootstrapping ourselves to get up to twenty-five per hour is, and I think the brigloads of newbies is part of a bootstrapping problem.

Over the course of the previous time in alpha, the acceptance rate averaged out to... 10 a day, maybe? If that's the case, we trained pirates are being overwhelmed sixty to one. After six months of training, these new pirates will be trained and turn into sage masters on their own. By then, the (same) rate of induction will leave trained pirates roughly evenly whelmed.

All's I'm sayin' is that I see this as a bootstrapping issue and not something to fear a few months down the line.
[Jul 25, 2003 3:30:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Okay, we've actually changed this a bit. It'll be the first three newbies free. After that they count as normal. They also consume rum, same as a jobber.

Players won't be considered newbies for all that long. It is an account-wide characterisation. In the future we will be restricting free trial accounts on a per-machine basis, so you won't be able to play multiple free trials (without multiple machines). Right now the exploits are more acute because during beta we're not implementing this restriction, and there's no expiry to the trial.

BTW, Penn, the trial won't be 30 days. It'll probably be more like 3-10 sessions to start with, with extra ones coming along as availability affords (i.e. at the end of the first trial, if you don't sign up, it'll ask you if you want to me emailed if we have some extra trials available, and maybe send you another 3).

So what can happen here? We can have ships boosted with newbs attacking smaller brigands that would be blue normally. They win. This is okay. PvP is more acute and if we get reports of ganking with newbs then please let me know and we'll take steps -- this is not the intended behaviour. That said, one could always take three free newbies oneself, if one could be bothered.

The big win here is that traders and other people who want to actually get somewhere can double up their swabbies with newbs and do some training along the way.

Re: Sea Battle ratings; these have been flopping around because the distribution is very tight. In the next release we are reseeding the Brigands with proper sea battle ratings and expect that everything will make a lot more sense with less 'I killed a green ship, now the same ship is blue, and the next green ship completely wiped me out'.

I agree, Akebia, that this is a bootstrapping issue. That's why I'm dishing out rum to those that will take out ships of newbies, and also take more personal and direct action. Hopefully quicker than six months we'll have a whole next layer of Officers and Captains ready to assimilate the swathes of new folk.
[Jul 25, 2003 3:41:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Cleaver wrote: 
The big win here is that traders and other people who want to actually get somewhere can double up their swabbies with newbs and do some training along the way.


If I'm understandin' ye correctly, this is a BIG win - are ye sayin' that on me small sloop, I'll be able to have me three swabbies and also three fresh-on-the-boat pirates? This would make tradin' in small items while trainin' excellent indeed. Part of the issue I have now with trainin' alone is that me ship develops holes and fills up with bilge while I'm tryin' to get the new people to work at stations that they just kicked swabbies off of. If I could leave me swabbies on carp and sails while directin' the new people, I could spare the attention to do plenty of trainin'.
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[Jul 25, 2003 3:52:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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If I'm understandin' ye correctly, this is a BIG win - are ye sayin' that on me small sloop, I'll be able to have me three swabbies and also three fresh-on-the-boat pirates?

You understand me correctly. Yay! The big win.
[Jul 25, 2003 4:14:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Sounds like the PPA is gonna need a fleet of small ships. It doesn't sound like this is going to do much for providing decemt fights for the huge ships training newbies right now, but I guess that isn't too much of an issue.
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Pennsuedo

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[Jul 25, 2003 4:40:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
Teirlap

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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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Penndalla wrote: 
Sounds like the PPA is gonna need a fleet of small ships. It doesn't sound like this is going to do much for providing decemt fights for the huge ships training newbies right now, but I guess that isn't too much of an issue.


Well, for once I mean no offense by this, Penn, but I was on one of your PPA vessels yesterday, and frankly, it's not so much an 'environment for learning' so much as a 'disorganized band of fifty odd pirates looking for something to beat on'.
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Frederico del Mar, President of the Emerald Company
'Merchants and accountants by profession, the Company's men lived by the ledger and ruled with the quill.'
~ John Keay, The Honourable Company
[Jul 25, 2003 4:48:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Arr, there have been better and worse days fer training, fer sure. Were ye on there when Cleaver and I were? I got put in the hotseat and wasn't really thar to train. Just was tryin' to get the ship provisioned. But, aye. It does turn into that sometimes.

I am encouraging the use of pre-scripted training lectures that can be pasted into the dialogue. Hopefully this will be the norm shortly.

However, I think thar be a hoarde of mateys that will tell ye they learned a lot more thar than jest sitting on the docks with no one to job them. I think it always turns to pillage after a period of time, though. They be pirates af'er all.

I haven't sailed on it too much lately. I think Faile is just now getting the staff together to do it right. I thank she has done a fine job of it. I am not sure how many of the pirates be return voyagers, fer that matter. If the majority be thar fer the second or third run, it would make sense to shift the focus.

We didn't spend months planning the PPA. We jest did what we could with what we had in an attempt to help out...

I'll be sure to take a trip on a Spice ship when I get back from me trip. =D
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Pennsuedo

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[Jul 25, 2003 5:03:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Small vs. Big Reply to this Post
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Aye, it's true that this change will particular benefit the small ships, but ultimately the heart of bringing people firmly into crews has got to be taking out smaller ships and giving them intimate training. In particular I think this is how tomorrow's Officers will be nurtured.

That said I think there's also a fine place for the War Frigate training of the PPA, particularly in these troubled times of many-a-bandana at the docks. I can attest to the difficulty of organising and rallying such an effort, but I think that newbies signing up clearly know what they're getting themselves into ('Take a job with Puzzle Pirates Academy') and I believe that Pennsuedo, Faile, and company have an organisational plan for bringing the best of these Pirates up in the ranks.

My sponsorship of the PPA with respect to rum and cannonballs does and has extended to other crews undertaking the mammoth task of giving the dock-bound hoardes a taste of something other than Navy'ing, and hopefully with this next release and more especially the release after, they will find some ships to plunder. They shouldn't, however, be all free of might, because then the incredible 75 Newbie boat could attack poor little sloops, and that just wouldn't be right.
[Jul 25, 2003 5:53:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Rengor



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Re: Suggestion on Brigand Coloring Reply to this Post
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Cleaver wrote: 
 
If I'm understandin' ye correctly, this is a BIG win - are ye sayin' that on me small sloop, I'll be able to have me three swabbies and also three fresh-on-the-boat pirates?

You understand me correctly. Yay! The big win.

Interesting indeed. I would need some way to tell whether a player is an official newbie though. "Trainee" as prefix maybe, or "Jr" as suffix? both not needed for commands.
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--=== www.madmutineers.com ===--
[Jul 25, 2003 6:53:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ely



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In later iterations of Ultima Online, persons playing on accounts that were less than one month in age had all of their characters marked with a newbie tag next to their names. For instance, you would see "Ted (newbie)" above someone's head.

It worked--I mean having it obvious at a glance that they are a newbie was good, in my book--but I never really liked the look of (newbie) floating above their heads. Silverbeard's solution is probably a much better direction, and a more fun one. Having their names colored differently might also work.
[Jul 25, 2003 7:12:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ely114 [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Rengor wrote: 
Cleaver wrote: 
 
If I'm understandin' ye correctly, this is a BIG win - are ye sayin' that on me small sloop, I'll be able to have me three swabbies and also three fresh-on-the-boat pirates?

You understand me correctly. Yay! The big win.

Interesting indeed. I would need some way to tell whether a player is an official newbie though. "Trainee" as prefix maybe, or "Jr" as suffix? both not needed for commands.


Fine idea, but ye can also tell 'cause they won't kick yer swabbies when they come on board.
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[Jul 25, 2003 7:13:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Rengor



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muffy wrote: 
Fine idea, but ye can also tell 'cause they won't kick yer swabbies when they come on board.

On a small sloop yes, but anything bigger and you can maybe tell there's a newbie on, but not who it is, which would be good to know so you can give them some basic training.

Something other than "newbie" though which for some has a derogatory sound to it. And a color is no good since you can't tell when they job for you or when you're already busy on a station.
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-= SilverBeard of The Mad Mutineers =-
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[Jul 25, 2003 7:25:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
crowsdiamond

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Tierlap Wrote:

 
Well, for once I mean no offense by this, Penn, but I was on one of your PPA vessels yesterday, and frankly, it's not so much an 'environment for learning' so much as a 'disorganized band of fifty odd pirates looking for something to beat on'.


Aye, at times that be what it is. Especially on the big ships. What usually happens is that the ones who are, (um, how can I put this nicely), less than quality piratey material will eventually either be planked, get bored and leave because we don't attack every boat in the water, or get offended by the fact that I do indeed assert discipline and leave. THEN the real training begins. This, unfortunately takes at least an hour, up to an hour and a half to accomplish.

If ye were on the Plaice last night, then left due to all the ruckus, then ye missed the really awesome transition of that crew from a pack of mongrels, to at least a negligibly trained ship of new recruits that will KNOW how to target, KNOW what is meant by repairin' turnabouts, KNOW what the most important job on the ship is (carpin), and will in general be a fine asset as a newcomer in a crew.

ON A SIDE NOTE: TOTALLY UNRELATED, JUST AN FYI!!!
PPA is open to any and all who are willing to learn the basics of the game. I expect MOST of my crew will wander off to other crews OUTSIDE of the Rudder Revolution Flag. So Cap'ns and officers of other crews, if they tell ye they sailed with me, and then come to ye afore they are truly ready,(made pirate) then they are the ones that DID NOT stay on for the good stuff, and are probably not good piratey example. There are some exceptions to the rule, but they actually came to me and told me they were leaving, and to please not be mad at them. :) Heh, like I would be mad at me students fer graduatin'! Check their info, if they made PIRATE, then they are likely worthy of your attention, if they are still cabin people, then well, I'll let ye check em out fer yerself, eh?
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~Faile
Once Captain of the Mighty PPA
Once Captain of the Falcon's Fury
Now Unretired and ready to KILL!!

Just point me to what you want dead, an' I'll kill it. Or die trying!
[Jul 25, 2003 10:31:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Crowsdiamond [Link]  Go to top 
Xel



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I think that having newbies not affect your ratings is actually going to mess things up even more. Right now it is too often that we attack a green or cyan ship and just get totally WHOOPED by it. I'm not talking even about sheer numbers either, it's really more that these green or cyan ships just have NPPs that cheat like crazy in swordfights. For example, with one NPP on me in a battle against a green ship I got FOUR screen-wide swords. Now sure, a VERY good player might be able to do this once, but every single person in my crew was saying that very similar things were happening to them. It really feels bad to lose to another ship when you have over 10 more people than them.

(edit: this is assuming that you mean newbies won't affect the crew number, if they are basically free pirates that dont affect your rating at ALL then I guess that will help some, but there is still the underlying problem that NPP ships ratings are really OFF and there are too many super-ultimate NPPs floating around on the seas)
[Jul 25, 2003 10:47:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    masterxel [Link]  Go to top 
stevoid



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crowsdiamond wrote: 
What usually happens is that the ones who are, (um, how can I put this nicely), less than quality piratey material will eventually either be planked, get bored and leave because we don't attack every boat in the water, or get offended by the fact that I do indeed assert discipline and leave. THEN the real training begins. This, unfortunately takes at least an hour, up to an hour and a half to accomplish.

If ye were on the Plaice last night, then left due to all the ruckus, then ye missed the really awesome transition of that crew from a pack of mongrels, to at least a negligibly trained ship of new recruits that will KNOW how to target, KNOW what is meant by repairin' turnabouts, KNOW what the most important job on the ship is (carpin), and will in general be a fine asset as a newcomer in a crew.


Thank ye from the bottom of me heart for having the patience (I'm SURE ye haven't got the time!)

The same goes to Browngotee who is also doing sterling work - and I'm sure it will be made easier after the update - taking out a small sloop with no experienced help, and turning new players into efficient fighting machines. And to everyone else doing the fantastic job they are; tis wonderful to see!
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muffy



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Xel wrote: 
but there is still the underlying problem that NPP ships ratings are really OFF and there are too many super-ultimate NPPs floating around on the seas)


It hasn't been that much of a problem for us lately. Much better than it used to be.
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Cellophane



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I agree. The ratings are on the mark now yet still have an element of surprise to them, which is a good thing in my opinion. Not knowing 100% what to expect keeps things from getting stale.
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Rengor



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Hmm I was thinking the same actually. Seems very well balanced to me. I can even get a decent amount of victories with a shipfull of pirates most of which are new.
But ok I don't pillage with all sizes so Im sure people found a problem somewhere.
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-= SilverBeard of The Mad Mutineers =-
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[Jul 25, 2003 3:02:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Xel



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Well, the problem we were having was with a full War Brig. Grand Frigates would show up green to us, so we would attack, and when the swordfight came up we would lose HORRIBLY even though we had more people! Maybe the colors are based too much on the amount of people and not enough on the actual skill, especially in the case of a ship with 10 ultimate swordfighters on it.
[Aug 9, 2005 4:00:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    masterxel [Link]  Go to top 
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