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muffy



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(Nervous) System overload! Reply to this Post
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I'm not sure quite how to deal with this, or even exactly how to express the problem. Basically, I'm just one part-time pirate, and so many new people has overwhelmed me in too many ways:

1. I'm a shoppekeeper and resources are scarce, so even spending all my available time chasing the materials I need is not sufficient. Raising buy prices hasn't helped, because the resources are still to. scarce, and my supply chain is too convoluted. I now dread lookin' at me shoppe when I log in.

2. I'm a captain, and the crew is eager. I've hired a bunch of new people, to the point where me crew and I are constantly being asked to go out and pillage. I've trained several new officers already, but it's hard to finish their training because a) I spend so much time doing other things, like dealin' with me shoppe and b) the "good" brigand routes keep changing, so what was full of nice greens and yellows this morning has nothing but dark blue and bright red this evening.

3. I'm an island developer and the resources are scarce. This of course has been alleviated by the fact that we finished all our buildings, but it has occupied a great deal of me time for the last month.

4. I'm an old-time player, captain, shoppe owner, rich pirate moneylender and transporter, skelly fighter, frequent player. I sometimes can't read the /tells as fast as they come on me screen, much less respond to them. At sea it's even worse.

5. I'm an avid reader of the forums. Over the past few months they have become less pleasant in tone, more chaotic, and more repetitive.

I'm still addicted to the game, but at this point it's become more exhausting and frustrating than fun, the majority of the time. Every once in a while I get a peaceful period where I can just chase skellies with me crew or have a peaceful pillage on a brigand-infested league, with just enough training to bring some of the fine pirates who have signed up recently up to speed.

The rest of the time, I'm porting from island to island searching for hemp and herbs and minerals while apologizin' to me crew for not also bein' able to run a pillage, responding to tells askin' why me shoppe is out of cloth, responding to requests for 'ports of pirates and money, havin' people shoutin' all around, makin' rude comments, crowdin' the docks so I can hardly move, challengin' without even an "ahoy", askin' to sell things, askin' to borrow money, askin' to be added to me crew, askin' for a shoppe, askin' for answers about pretty much anything about the game, etc. Meanwhile, I'm tryin' to run a ship, and me crew are chatting in a pleasant way about whatever, and I'd love to join in, but I can hardly keep up.

It's really just too much to handle. I want to do me best by the game, I'd like to train up some of the fine new people who have shown up, I'd like me shoppe to be well-staffed and stocked, for all me crew who want to pillage to be able to, and to be able to go on missions of me own, like trading or skelly-fightin'. Instead, I just can't do it all, and I feel like I'm letting people (particularly crew, but also anyone who asks for help) down and not holding up me responsiblity for me shoppe's smooth operation. It's discouraging - now playing Y!PP is just a long list of "TODOs" instead of a relaxing escape from such a list.
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[Jul 24, 2003 4:22:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Rifkind, simply put: You do too much.

Before the flood of new players you were already doing everything possible to do in the game and doing more of it than anyone else. When the floodgates were opened all of your responsibilities multiplied. I'm sure this is happening to all other veterans, though probably to a lesser degree.

To this I must say: Delegate.

If you find it too stressful to run your shoppe, your flag, your crew and your island all at once, let someone else do at least one of those things. Sell someone your shoppe. They probably won't run it nearly as efficiently (certainly not at first) but they will be thrilled for the opportunity and I'm sure you have some players in mind.

Delegation and a passing-on of ownership was part of the plan of the expansion of the Y!PP social structure. Unfortunately, this giant jump in population made the necessity of the restructuring immediate and the pool of middle-level players very small compared to those at the polar ends.

Still, there must be some players within your flag who are chomping at the bit...

Anything we Ringers can do to help alleviate the strain on our veterans we will be happy to discuss. You are the backbone of the community... we certainly don't want to break that back with this load of new swabs.

-Nemo
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[Jul 24, 2003 4:31:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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theres one point in yer posting i fully agree with - the brigand thingy. this is especially frustrating when taking newbies out who dont really understand the fact (well, at least it seems to me to be one) that theres a lot of luck involved in finding good targets quickly and plenty.


but fer yer other concerns.. sorry, i can feel fer ye being stressed by the masses of new players, but if it gets too much fer ye, why dont you just give up on one of the many things ye do? from what ye sound like, that would likely be yer shoppe... there are litterally dozens of players that are MOST eager to get the chance to run one, ranging from total newbies to rather experienced players. sure, there are economic problems right now, but having the shop run as basically care-free (not counting checking some prices every other day) as a money machine surely cant be the goal, either, right?

this doesnt even go specifically to you... i do feel that it is not very reasonable to have a lot of captains of more or less large and active crews running all the shoppes.

not only are they likely to start feeling stressed at one point or the other, it also seems kinda unfair that the same people soak up *two* very rare and highly desired positions in the game that both offer lots of new gameplay options (the shoppe stands fer itself, and captains get to be involved in the politics of the game while most others do not). sure, both options need qualifications and one of them is free to *try* fer everyone, but face it, ye'll have to go a long hard walk to start up building a new large crew right now. starting an own flag with the established ones having own islands already will likely be even harder. also, running a crew and running a shoppe require a very much different skill set.

this wont be the same on fresh servers, obviously, since everyone starts at nil (or the same starting position) there, and i surely hope that the shopkeepers wont be the same people running the larger crews.

to sum it up: i feel that the various "special" positions in the game should be spread out far more than they are right now.

(and jest to make sure that noone thinks this be an envy posting - i wouldnt want to run neither a shoppe nor a large crew ;))

edit: arr nemo! couldnt ye have announced ye say what i try to say? sigh. ;)
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 24, 2003 4:42:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Tybalt



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I sure do appreciate you, Rifkind, and all that you do.

That said, I think there is something you can do for this helpful, community minded lady, Nemo.

 

I sometimes can't read the /tells as fast as they come on me screen, much less respond to them. At sea it's even worse.


There is nothing worse than being bombarded by questions, but from what I've seen there is no ability to control communication. You have created /crew and /jcrew channels, but if a pirate wants some quiet time to puzzle or talk with a friend there is no /annonymous or /invisible flag to offer them that. Even in the depths of the sea, she is probably being bombarded with questions from newbie jobbers (...like me) and being of good and (rif)Kind heart, she feels obliged to respond.

That is not so much a function of how much she does, but of system overload (as the title implies). These channel/flag features are standard in every MMOG on the market for the last 3 years. They are built into IRC and every Instant Messanger client. Why, then, would you not include it in a game that is soley reliant on text chant to communicate?

Thanks again for being so kind...Rif..kind
[Jul 24, 2003 4:48:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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"doing it all" Reply to this Post
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Nemo wrote: 
Rifkind, simply put: You do too much.


Aye, a problem for me in life, too...*smile*. And ye are right about delegating, and I'll work on that. I assume if I can find a purchaser for the Alpha Tailor, ye Ringers will assist in me turnin' it over?

However, my post, though I now see it came out that way, was not intended specifically as whining about my personal situtation, but more about the impact of the growth of the game, both in people and in features. Yer response has helped me clarify the point about game design that was lurkin' in me mind:

Is it intended to be possible for a player to "do it all"? Can someone be a governor, a shoppekeeper, a captain, an island developer, a trainer, a pillager, a trader, and an adventurer (ah, I long for "adventure islands")?

I think it's the case now that people can take on these roles serially, unloading one to try another. Trying to do a good job at even two of these seems to me to be very difficult. While delegation is a great concept, there aren't really many game mechanisms for it. I can give up me shoppe, give up me captaincy, stop trying to trade, etc., but I can't really do "less" of most of these with the current options in the game, unless I want to do poorly at them.

I've seen a lot of suggestions to make one or another of these tasks easier, but I'm wondering now if that makes sense, or if it's really best to specialize on just one or two tasks, and either not do the others or just dip into them every once in a while.

Shoppekeeping: Right now, it's all-or-nothing. With Assistant Managers, ye could spread the work around, but it might also get spread so thin that it's not very interesting.

Captaining: Bootstrapping problem - ye can delegate a lot to officers, but ye have to train 'em, and what with attrition, this is an ongoing issue, especially if ye're not inclined to the sweep-'em-all-up-and-sell-officerships model. Training, observation, and evaluation all take time and effort. Also, the options for responsibility delegation are not all that they could be, as has been discussed at length.

Island government: I haven't been a governor, so I don't know how much work the building placement stuff is, but the human interaction is a large task. Basically, people just won't shut up; they always want something. So ye have to use an alt, or hide somewhere and ignore chat and tells. I suspect once ye take it on, ye are stuck with people chattin' at ye constantly.

Trading: Ye CAN dip into this every once in a while, but then ye're a lot more likely to lose yer shirt. Even in the old days, with just Diamond, it was hard to keep track of supply, demand, and overhead. Now it's just nuts, the routes are long, and any problems with keepin' track of what to buy and sell where are exacerbated by the various shortages of supply and excesses of demand.

Training: Exhausting with more than a few new people at a time, and not everyone wants to do it, or feels competent to. I think a lot of this COULD be eliminated by having training documents, but of course there's no substitute for on-the-ship experience. Most of me best trainers are burnt out right now, it seems. With less turnover in the crew and some good manuals, it could probably be a not-too-time consuming job.

Pillaging: Alternately rewarding and frustrating right now. This is probably historically accurate...*grin*. But it would be nice if a good route remained a good route. This one, once ye've had practice, ye can take or leave, but as (at least for me) it's the most fun, it's sad to have to leave it, or to spend a couple hours and see nothin' but blue and red.

Skelly fights (and other adventures): Like pillaging, ye can do a little or a lot. It's been made harder by the no-money-whisking thing, but if ye can leave some buried on every island, it's a great few hours when ye're in the mood. Maybe I'll give up everything else and just pursue skellies all day! *smile*
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[Jul 24, 2003 5:19:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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garf wrote: 
from what ye sound like, that would likely be yer shoppe... there are litterally dozens of players that are MOST eager to get the chance to run one, ranging from total newbies to rather experienced players. sure, there are economic problems right now, but having the shop run as basically care-free (not counting checking some prices every other day) as a money machine surely cant be the goal, either, right?


Aye, and thanks for adding this. I think these things SHOULD be a fair amount of work to do right, maybe a bit less nuts than they are now, but not just automatic money-generating machines. And I think ye've put yer finger on what I'm thinkin' about in terms of game design - the roles definitely need to be spread out more, and I don't think it makes sense for anyone to take on more than one (unless it's somethin' like captain and trader which work very well together).

garf wrote: 

(and jest to make sure that noone thinks this be an envy posting - i wouldnt want to run neither a shoppe nor a large crew ;))


DRAT! After readin' the first half of yer message, I was ready to offer to sell it to ye for a reasonable price...*grin*. (Also since I've been impressed with ye in-game and here on the forums.)
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[Jul 24, 2003 5:24:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Keep in mind, Garf and others, that the first round of shoppes went to people who the Ringers felt had been on long enough and had been active enough to make a serious go of it. In the real world, people can go into things with no preparation or dedication and then fail miserably. The first pass at player-run shoppes could not constructively be evaluated with people flailing and failing. Not that they would have automatically, but if I were testing something, I'd want to see good people trying to do it right first, THEN see what happens when randomly-selected people do it wrong. The people who got shoppes are SOME (by no means all) of the most historically-active people in the game . . . their historical activity is also what led them to positions of prominence in crews. We weren't chosen because we were officers and captains, we were chosen because we're active. It is a case of the rich getting richer, though in a game subject to wipes of all kinds. I can't see any other model of shop-distribution being as smart. More "fair" certainly, but not efficient.

The second round of shoppes . . . well. . . the flags gathered the resources for the islands, and the bid money. We should have then, by virtue of some law handed down by the Azure Colonization Authority, handed shops to people outside the flag? That doesn't sound right either.

I agree that there has been some exclusivity, and that can be discouraging . . . other people are ahead because they've been on longer, and can be on longer per day than me. It's the main reason I got discouraged with Asheron's Call . . . others were waaaaaay ahead of me, and were still camping out spots that were made for people of my level. The difference in this game is that you can stay in the top 10 in swords by logging on for 15 minutes a day, for instance. One can have a reputation and connections and money and power with limited play time, and one's skill at the puzzles is one's skill, no matter how long you're on.

I think that before another 500 people are let in, there should be a /invisible or whatever function, where people can see that you're on (via /who) and still talk to you in a chat circle or vessel, but not send you /tells. Is it too much to ask to have people come see governors and captains in person? I don't think so. Pirates didn't have cell phones for instant messaging anyway . . . and I guarantee the ability to have silence would be golden.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by homullus at Jul 24, 2003 5:42:05 AM]
[Jul 24, 2003 5:42:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Office hours! Reply to this Post
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homullus wrote: 
Is it too much to ask to have people come see governors and captains in person? I don't. Pirates didn't have cell phones for instant messaging anyway . . . and I guarantee the ability to have silence would be golden.


Aye, a little silence would relieve a lot of the feeling of not being able to keep up, I think. Perhaps captains, governors, shoppekeepers, etc. could have "office hours" where it's acceptable to contact them with administrative requests, or alternatively non-office-hours where they could refuse to "hear" random tells (or other channels, as desired), while on-line.
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[Jul 24, 2003 6:09:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Re: invisibility and tells:

It will depend on where the who list goes, but certainly being able to be invisible within your shoppe (or home) would be a nice option. Being invisible on a ship might not be necessary if ships only report captain and then the number of crewmates onboard. This would go a long way to limiting extraneous tells.
Being able to turn off tells might be nice. It certainly could frustrate people who genuinely needed to get in touch with you, but, then that's your choice and you probably had a reason.

Re: assistants:

Shoppe assistants will hopefully at least allow for a reasonable transition period for if you want to hand your shoppe off. Also, it will alleviate the "I never get a break" problem because while you're away someone else can at least douse the flames in emergencies. If we have an option to call them apprentices might that encourage people to hand over shoppes more often?

Re: trading:

We just had a big meeting and came up with a very good plan for making trading more viable. One of the most obvious and easiest to implement portions of this involve the much-discussed "news of foreign rates." But this will be in conjunction with a larger addition to the trading scheme that should make trading and shoppe ownership more visible and profitible experiences.


A sufficiently skilled and dedicated player should certainly be able to "do it all"... but not all at once. I'm rather happy that even the great Rifkind can't do everything in our game at the same time. We want there to be a lot to do. We want someone who has decided she's had a go at running a shoppe to find many other opportunities waiting for her.

Any suggestions for ways of subtly keeping people from taking on too much? I don't think a hard limit would be good (people like Rifkind will clearly want to do more than most others would find comfortable), but it might be nice to be able to let people know of the overload before they sign up for it...

-Nemo
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[Jul 24, 2003 6:31:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Re: (Nervous) System overload! Reply to this Post
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Nemo wrote: 
[lots of good stuff, see above]

Any suggestions for ways of subtly keeping people from taking on too much? I don't think a hard limit would be good (people like Rifkind will clearly want to do more than most others would find comfortable), but it might be nice to be able to let people know of the overload before they sign up for it...


Cautionary (illustrated?) tales of pirates' heads exploding? *grin*

It's possible that in the full-fledged server and environment, this just won't be much of an issue. When there are many dedicated people playing, there will be a lot more competition for positions, and more people available to delegate to as well.

If it does start to happen, it might be to some degree a case of "the rich get richer". Making it easier for poorer players to compete for shoppes, buy ships to form crews, etc. (I've raised the subject of bank loans in another thread) might help in just making it difficult for one person to succeed in winning too many positions in the first place.
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[Jul 24, 2003 6:52:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
crowsdiamond

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Rifkind, I do NOT have anywhere near the responsibility you carry, nor am I a "great" player, just one that loves the game and all it has to offer. I have made a LOT of good friends on here, and thoroughly enjoy most of the time spent on the game.

With the addition of Faile's duties to Diamond's already fairly hefty duties (relatively speaking here, since they were fairly singular looking back, lol), there are times when I take a deep breath and steel myself before I put Faile on. The instantaneous bombarding of her personage by Tells, is astounding at times, and there NEEDS to be a way you can turn it OFF! I can't get crew business taken care of without hearing 101 little pirates wondering when we are going out, and can we go get our money off of such-and-such island, and, and, and..... Yes, I know this is going to be the case until the crew becomes structured enough that those types of questions are directed to our crew site, and until the mates learn enough protocol to ask on /crew chat so that others who already know the answers can help them out. I have been known to go hide and flat out announce to my crewmates that I am NOT to be disturbed unless they are bleeding, broken or dead. <G> (a little trick i used with me kiddos when they were buggin me and i needed quiet time)

I think an /anon feature needs to be added, or perhaps it should be /shhh! ;) You should be able to do this when you log on, and only allow those to contact you who are on a speacial list you create. That way a Cap'n can come on, and only their Officers would be able to contact them. (If they were on the list)

(My problem has been multiplied by the broadcasts by the devs, i am sure, becuase people i have never heard of are constantly sending me /tells to job them or whatnot.)

Anyhow, Rifkind, I truly understand what you are saying, and although my situation can't possibly be as hectic, if you need to vent, you are welcome to come with me to a deserted island, and vent away! (That way we can curse the DEVil hisself without him overhearin it! LOL
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~Faile
Once Captain of the Mighty PPA
Once Captain of the Falcon's Fury
Now Unretired and ready to KILL!!

Just point me to what you want dead, an' I'll kill it. Or die trying!
[Jul 24, 2003 7:35:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Crowsdiamond [Link]  Go to top 
Rengor



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Im completely with you Rifkind, I have many of the same experiences as a long time player, shopkeeper, captain for a large crew for a long time, govenor, webmaster and so on.
There has been days where I just had to take a break and where logging on to get 10 tells within the first minute sets the pace for that nasty day.

The colonization of Guava has been a great project, im truly proud that we could do it so fast, faster than the devs had expected I bet. But it's also taken it's toll for a good handfull of key players where Rif is very central. At the same time everything else exploded with the economy, the influx of many new players.
Fortunately our colonization has ended mostly, shops are running and all buildings built. So Im expecting to have more time for other tasks now.

All that said all of us having problems keeping up CHOSE to be in that position. We want to try everything, we are powerpirates. So now we have to choose to delegate some of these hats.

Delegate
Just before the colonization began I chose to find another captain for the Mad Mutineers. We had been planning ahead of the colonization for a while at the time and the shop/trading was keeping me very busy so I basically never had time to go pillaging, and felt really bad whenever members would log on and ask if I wanted to take us pillaging and had to say no I gotta do some business. Fortunately I had an extremely active pillaging officer (several actually) and I made Bronchitis captain instead, and it's been a very good choice. We are larger and more active than ever, and I have had more time to do other things.
So there's one advice, but I know it requires having the right person available, the captain is extremely key to success/failure for a crew.

I have the same issue now that my name as govenor pops up whenever people land on Guava and I feel it's my job to be available for questions, or to take players out to pillage. And fortunately I've taken that time the last few days and done some newbie pillaging which has been great fun. I hope to be able to do more of that.

Trading
Trading is nasty, like Rifkind I've been involved since economy was invented and since then I've sponsored the start of 4-5 shops which gives me a decent insight in how tough it can be. I foresee some serious price changes for the worse from here on. But I'll make a separate post on trading/economy (weeee yet another).
Some solutions to the trading issues would be the contracts we've discussed in several threads. I have several officers who don't mind doing trading and I bet there are tons of players who would be happy to help out when they know there's actually good money to be earned (potentially) but they don't have the insight in the economy.
But otherwise delegate some of the trading to officers (or other players) too, it takes some explaining and it will cost you more to get your supplies, but then pass that expense on to your production cost.

Alts
Use alts to get some privacy and still be able to do some fun. Alot of trading is done with alts, I do too a little bit. And then either conceal your identity or only make it known to a few players. You limit your options this way ofcourse.

Communication
But my biggest problem is communication. Yes I've done some delegation of my work, but if anything that just increases the amount of tells you get since you have to instruct the delegated.
If I wanted to I could find a lonely island or secret location somewhere and just sit there all day and answer tells and crew speech. And I sure don't mind talking to players, but it's when I have to combine it with say taking out a shipfull of new players that it becomes impossible some days.
I need some more tools for communication.

The current auto answer when doing puzzles is extremely welcome. Not that everyone realizes it means you're busy but it works fairly well.

In the same category I would REALLY like an /afk /away [message] so players get a message that im away or very busy, because if I answer and say Im busy I just get the questions anyway or people ask me "so what are you busy doing?"

And then I'll try and advocate for my old old idea I keep digging up that I need so bad now: chat filters.
If Im out sailing with a ship full of pirates and I get any tells, I have no chance to actually read them among the million system messages and the vessel speech and crew speech.
So I would really really appreciate if I could press some buttons to filter out different elements or only show tells (and my replies) crew speech etc.
Currently I have to ask people not to use the crew chat for idle chit chat and I've even resorted to muting crew members because I could'nt keep up with a conversation when there's 10 crew messages popping up between messages. And I hate having to tell people not to socialize but some of us are having a hard time doing our tasks in the meantime, a filter would give me the nice option and not make me the grumpy old guy anymore perhaps.

[/img]
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-= SilverBeard of The Mad Mutineers =-
--=== www.madmutineers.com ===--
[Jul 24, 2003 8:02:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Arr, and here I sit with the easy life. Har har.

I have been overwhelmed at times for a while now, and I don't own a shoppe, I don't really trade, I don't skeleton hunt... Unfortunately I don't get to pillage much.

I find promotions to be a real drag with larger crews. The simple fact that I cannot delegate the task of doing promotions is a pretty lame reason to cap crew size. We are revamping our crew structure to handle the player explosion, but there are just some things you cannot delegate to any real degree. I see myself as wearing one hat, mainly. I guess I could pick being captain OR monarch, but the monarch duties in our flag are few.

Some would suggest that we should split our crew, but feedback from highup suggests that such a large crew is not frowned upon. I have proposed a fairly elaborate but intuitive delegation system for crews, but really some very simple delegations would make all the difference. (I'm refering to mechanics-based, not social delegations)

I was always told to wait for flags, that flags would do a lot of what I was looking for in delegations. Well, I am here to say that flags don't do a flip in that respect. Dividing a crew under a flag is a sure path to even worse communications problems. I have to use an alt (in the PPA) on a second computer to answer if someone in my crew asks if the PPA is out sailing. Yeah, I know there are a lot more features coming to flags...

Where are my ship logs? I will gladly rearrange the list a bit if you let me. =)

We've discussed not allowing captains to own shoppes in our flag, and I support that notion. During the building phase, I don't think it is realistic.

I've been swimming n a constant river of tells forever now, and I have learned to cope with that. I would like to be able to type in an auto-response like: These folks can help ye! Site Permisions-Zarhirra, Problem Crewmates-Garf, New Player training-Diamond/Faile...... and on and on. Har. I would still like the tell to come through, I would just like to know they got my auto-response. Then if the tell were asking fer site flag site access rights, I would ignore it knowing they had just been told to contact Zarhirra. (Of course, her tell response would say: Crew Site? PM on the site. I am ignoring you!)

For now, I have come up with a sure fix for all these issues. I am going on a weekend-long canoe trip. Maybe 12-hour shifts with 4 on 3 off would work better for Y!PP. If someone asks me what my job is, I will have to ask if they mean the one I work at the most or the one I get paid for.

OK, There is my gripe list. I'm sure it will be all better when I get back on Monday, though. If ye could jest give me a way to delegate promotions, I promise not to ask for anything else for 6 months. (Or I might just be settin' meself up to be a liar...)

Uh oh. I am in trouble now! Last time I went to Cleaver with concerns about being over-worked, he immediately came up with the current Newbie Water World. Yup, that took me mind off me old issues fer sure. Now I can expect a box of envelopes and letters to arrive as part of the new stuff-to-play system that will make my current gripes old news. =P

Bah, I don't know when to shut up. This is a great game! I'm not going anywhere. (Except for the weekend.)

Thank Cleaver for free rum and cannon balls when training the newbies!!!

P. S. More incentive based PVP would make life better! (I hear it is already coming) Oh, and Rifkind surely has to be worth more than 5k in booty. =D
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[Jul 24, 2003 5:09:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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homullus - aye, i know why the diamond shoppes are in the hands of their current owners. but times change, and while ye are most certainly right that always having the best, most involved and experienced people running the shoppes is the most efficient way, i dont think that efficiency is the major thing here. this be a game, and if someone is not that good at a part of it, that shouldnt mean he cant get a shot at it.

various earlier discussed methods could make sure that if someone *really* messes up and hurts the whole economy, he could be replaced. be that by governors (so they be trusted) holding the shoppe deeds and "just" leasing the shoppes away, be it the ability to withdraw the deed (and maybe have the shop builder get the resouces used fer his shoppe back?).

now if cleavers remark about having a hundred governers on a fully populated server stands, that would surely alleviate the problem with a large part of the game onyl being available to a very exclusive group of players, even though i still cant see how so many islands could have enough inhabitants and customers to make it work.


ah, rifkind, thanks fer the kind words. (even though im not so sure how i could've impressed ye in the game; i dont recall sailing with ye.. but that surely is stuff fer private message).
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[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 24, 2003 9:28:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I guess I was thinking that with the flag-colonization of the new islands, and the proliferation of new shoppes, the number of players owning shoppes has increased dramatically. This, plus the fact that many player-owners are overwhelmed with shoppe-owning and captaincy, means that shoppes are trickling down.

I know if they suddenly announced they were opening all islands to colonization, there would be a swift rush to get as many islands as possible minimally colonized for the flags, which would again increase the number of governors.

Basically, we are in many places already outside the exclusive bunch who started, and on Midnight, where expansion will eventually only be limited by players' resources and good sense, I think there will be plenty of jobs to go around.
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muffy



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Penndalla wrote: 
P. S. More incentive based PVP would make life better! (I hear it is already coming) Oh, and Rifkind surely has to be worth more than 5k in booty. =D


Nah, I'm not stupid enough to sail with that much of me fortune at any time. And if the game moves to encouragin' PvP too much more (army of newbies, free shot and rum for those who want to pound on the rest of us), I won't be sailin' anyway. I remember those days, when shot was free and Spleen did nothin' but harass the rest of us. Nearly gave up on it then.
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Grogan



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Wait..seriously?

Muffy, there could not be less PVP in this game if they removed it. Why don't you see Spleen and the rest of us logged in that much.

We do miss hunting you, so.

Grogan
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muffy



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Grogan wrote: 
there could not be less PVP in this game if they removed it. Why don't you see Spleen and the rest of us logged in that much.

We do miss hunting you, so.


Oddly enough, we were reminiscin' about yer crew the other night, and sayin' how in some ways we missed YE. Ye haven't been around much lately - come back, Pennsuedo LOVES PvP, and he has nice big ships full of shot and rum out there - ye could probably supply yer ships off of his forever.

I hear they're on the track of fixin' the rum bug, so ye'll have trouble catchin' me again...*smile*.
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[Jul 25, 2003 2:15:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Oh, I wasn't suggesting ye would have 50k on ye Rif. I was refering to Cleaver calling matches like he did that night a while back. There was a purse for the winner. I was complimentin' ye that the purse should be bigger than that if one beats ye.

I didn't mean that I intend to attack ye at sea in general. I really don't attack player ships at all. It just isn't worth all the whining. I'm sure I will get a chance to a bit more when all the new crews take to the water more. It should be pretty interesting.

I've been so tied up in the island and helping with the influx that I haven't been sailing much. By next weekend I intend to start doing some concentual fights off of Alpha again, but I don't intend to do it all the time. It makes it more interesting when Cleaver does public wagers, though.

Imagine that: me off topic...
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Pennsuedo

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[Jul 25, 2003 2:29:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Penndalla wrote: 
Oh, I wasn't suggesting ye would have 50k on ye Rif. I was refering to Cleaver calling matches like he did that night a while back. There was a purse for the winner. I was complimentin' ye that the purse should be bigger than that if one beats ye.


Ah, very kind of ye. I wouldn't mind doin' more of those arranged battles if they fix the disconnection problems that have been plaguin' us lately. When ye lose two of yer people before the fight even starts, it's often just a slaughter.

Ye take large ships out a lot - do ye get a lot of disconnects? It's been seemin' to me to be related not to how many are on the server, but how many are on me ship. The more full the ship, the more likely a disconnect at some point during the battle. I know it's not me network connection, 'cause last night I got disconnected in battle while me husband, connected through the same hub, was piratin' along just fine.

Penndalla wrote: 
I didn't mean that I intend to attack ye at sea in general. I really don't attack player ships at all.


Aye, it's been a while since ye attacked me...*grin*. Sorry if me trouncin' ye caused yer crew to whine. I did see yer crew attackin' a navy ship last night, though...
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[Jul 25, 2003 2:45:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Aye, when plunder be scarce, we will sometimes take sport with the navy. Me crew is more likely to whine about not being able to immediately reingage rather than losing a fight.

Actually, on the brigs and frigates, we often have fights whar no one be disconnected. Sometimes 1 will get dropped off. Rarely 2 will.

My rl pal Telzarn is one of the better swords in the game. He is an EQ addict, but he really enjoys Y!PP. He gets disconnected all the time. (About as bad as Cleaver on the docks at night! =P) I built his and his wife's computers. They are identical. They are on the same network. He gets boots and she does not. He has done ALL of the suggested fixes, and it does not help.

If Telzarn has patience enough fer it, I am gonna try to get him to swap memory in the machines. He runs other intensive games and they work jest fine on both computers. I jest am curious to see if it is a tollerance issue some how. If the memory doesn't help, I am going to try to get him to switch the hard drives around and see what that does.

I never ever get dropped from battle. It is really a distinguished group of folks that will have it occur again and again. I only once lost a sword fight to a timeout on the puzzle on the docks in Turtle, but the game didn't drop me.

Telzarn is a programmer in RL, and he is convinced that some assumptions have been made in the game code that don't account fer all hardware configurations and software sets.

Erm, that is the short answer.
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[Jul 25, 2003 2:57:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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I've read this thread with interest and concern. I am acutely aware of how much responsibility people can take on in PP. It's sobering. Of course I think that this is part of the strength of the game (otherwise I wouldn't have made it so) and that, if these avenues weren't there, Rifkind and others would have become bored a long time ago. I agree that Penn is on the right track with 'take the weekend off' (I am going to take my first night off in a couple of weeks tonight). Anyway, we are of course committed to helping these heroes of the Azure Ocean out in any way we can.

What exactly do you mean about delegating promotions, Penn? Do you want a special Officer who can promote new Officers?

The cross-flag thing is tricky but I think we can sort something out in the medium-term. And a revamp of the full-screen chat history is definitely on the list, in which filters would make a whoooole lot of sense (I would really like this).
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Cleaver
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there could not be less PVP in this game if they removed it. Why don't you see Spleen and the rest of us logged in that much.

You're wrong. Every time I go out pillaging, pretty much (which has been every day for the last week at least, no, not usually as Cleaver) I get into a pvp battle, usually with the other side attacking. It's fun. We don't win gold to speak of (although it has happened) but occasionally goods.

What I am currently debating is how to encourage PvP without making it a gank-fest (although I think the Black Ship goes a long way there -- all the battles I've been in have been nicely balanced). Avast! I must stop myself (deleting a bunch more stuff) and save this for a new thread.
[Jul 25, 2003 5:06:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Aye, I have seen this as part of more involved suggested schemes, but I would like to be able to delegate the responsibility of handing out promotions to a few trusted mates. I would want them to be able to promote up to the rank jest under them. That would make life much easier. It would literally free up many hours a week for me to actually take ships out.

Sure I have to spend a lot of time due to our system of promotions, but it would be at least as hard (impossible to do fairly) if I were doing it by the seat of me pants.
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[Jul 25, 2003 5:09:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
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Arr, how come I don't get attacked more often?

Oh! Must be cause I am parked somewhar promotin' folks. =P
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[Jul 25, 2003 5:10:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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/me silently points to http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=917

obviously, that wouldnt have to be done in all detail (i figure implementing restrictions on ship access and such would take some work), but it could surely start by a promotion/demotion system.



and about encouraging pvp.. the booty cant be divided until ye port, aye?

how about making it so ye simply increase what ye get from another vessels booty for pvp? maybe even make it 100%?

this way, you couldnt totally ruin traders running their whole wealth around, but ye would have a lot to win if ye caught a ship that returns from a successfull pillage trip. of course, if they won a lot, they likely arent easy prey... which seems jest fine fer me?

maybe even indicate how "fat" a vessel is. fer the realism thinkers... gold be heavy, and a ship full of gold would likely appear much deeper in the water.
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[Jul 25, 2003 5:36:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Penndalla wrote: 
Aye, I have seen this as part of more involved suggested schemes, but I would like to be able to delegate the responsibility of handing out promotions to a few trusted mates.


Aye, same here. I want to be able to promote me good people to officer, so they can take out ships, run battles, trade goods, etc. However, not all of them are inclined to training or evaluation of other pirates. For those who are, I'd love to allow them to promote fine new trainees all the way up to officer, as appropriate. However, I wouldn't feel that those trainee officers were necessarily ready yet to make decisions about promotions, or, for that matter, take ships out on their own. I have me standard warning for new officers that they should not take a ship out by themselves until they have run a few sea battles under an experienced officer. After all, any time ye take a ship out, ye're subject to bein' attacked, even if ye are not pillagin', so this experience is important.

So, what I'd like is to have these three categories of officer:

1. Trainee officer - can buy and sell, navigate, etc, but can't make a ship leave port. (They should, of course, be able to set sail once at sea.)

2. Regular officer - has the additional ability to make ships leave port.

3. Seasoned officer - has the additional ability to promote other crew members up to the rank of trainee officer and regular officer.
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garf



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also, while you are right that a lot (comparatively) of pvp happens, more than half of those battles are newbie crews that likely didnt even notice the difference between ye and the brigands.

right yesterday we had our full large sloop attacked by a very blue small sloop from a crew founded two days earlier. i doubt their captain was aware that we were pirates or that us being orange-red means that he will likely get smacked...
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[Jul 25, 2003 5:41:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Ely



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Cleaver wrote: 
You're wrong. Every time I go out pillaging, pretty much (which has been every day for the last week at least, no, not usually as Cleaver) I get into a pvp battle, usually with the other side attacking. It's fun. We don't win gold to speak of (although it has happened) but occasionally goods.


Unfortunately, I think a lot of that is out of error or out of desperation for something to fight (pre-arranged PvP fights excluded). Given the choice between a green brigand and a green player ship, no one in their right mind would attack the player ship currently. Experienced captains know that the odds are greatly against a player versus player confrontation paying for even the rum and cannonballs spent, let alone paying for the crew's work and time.

But you know this already, and I know you guys are on the ball to get PvP attractive again. Like you said, it is very fun -- it's just not profitable, anymore, so most captains are likely to avoid it.
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Cleaver
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Penndalla wrote: 
Aye, I have seen this as part of more involved suggested schemes, but I would like to be able to delegate the responsibility of handing out promotions to a few trusted mates. I would want them to be able to promote up to the rank jest under them.

Oooh. I was under the mistaken impression that they could. That's booched. It's on the list.
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