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atteSmythe

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Ok, mates, I'm scuppering tired of being owned by the brigands.

I've talked about burnout and all that stuff, and some of ye know that I've even considered stepping down as Monarch as a way of reducing stress. In truth, though, as stressful as the game has been lately, none of that stress has come from my position. It occurred to me last night - if I step down, I'd have more time to...do what? Lose more?

Back in the Day, Black Opal, with primarily me at the helm, had an win ratio of over 80% - now I have trouble breaking even. After a year of playing, I feel like I've never navigated before. That's just not right. If I can't play the game like I used to, perhaps I can at least learn to do it efficiently so that I can earn some poe and get back to the parts of the game that are fun.

If anyone's actually managed to keep up with the changes, please drop me a line. Don't think anything has changed? Can't see what the problem is? Put your action where your mouth is. I've enough poe left to my name to supply the ship for runs, but not, sadly, to offer any sort of decent rate for your service. Consider the experience of working with an experienced player as good training for teaching the up-and-coming Midshipmen in your crew. The successful applicant will be patient with a reluctant student and kindly tolerate self-pitying whining.

atteSmythe,
apologizin' to those few mates who'd already offered, but figurin' he'd see if the offer still stands since there were (minor) changes since
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Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

[Jul 8, 2004 2:10:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://attesmythe.com [Link]  Go to top 
puzjunky



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first thing i do is put some distance between me and them. move as far away from them as i can without smacking anything. then look for a area of the board where i can force them to sail a circle around a rock. i circle until they run out of tokens and come up behind and blammo.

of course last night i decided to start using small rocks and the perimeter of the board to quick turn and fire off a ton o shots. it causes some damage but if it allows you to turn and connect on 2-6 cannonballs it can be worth it. worked pretty well and i have lost 3 swordfight with brigands over the last week, out of about 20 engagements. (of course 2 were in ruby so...)

payout started low last night with about 1.5k for sea lords and 3k for imperials on a brig with 13 people. my last imperial fight gave us 10k so it got better but it's still not good.

so i'd say distance distance distance and force them to either come to you or run out of tokens.

it may help to man a cutter with plenty of people, that will force your enemy brigands to be on merch galleons, which require more bots to run and tokens will be harder for them to get after a few shots. It seems unfair that when i'm in a war brig, the only boats i come accross are merchant brigs, so i get 3 moves and they get 4. i have yet to see any brigand in a war brig that gets only 3 moves against me. they are always merchys.
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Talons

who was I again?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by puzjunky at Jul 8, 2004 2:22:07 AM]
[Jul 8, 2004 2:22:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    talonsypp [Link]  Go to top 
Telastyn



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Ye're welcome aboard whenever ye like.



Went 5-0 last night vs imperials, and have never had problems with the new brigands. [2k per pirate for an alpha-turtle run in 4-5 man sloop]
[Jul 8, 2004 2:29:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Merchant class ships are hella easier than any other kind. Keep in mind that the brigands also have to "play" at their duty stations and think about how hard it is to run a Merchant ship. Also be thankful you don't have to fight War-class ships with broadside shots.
[Jul 8, 2004 2:30:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Telastyn wrote: 
Ye're welcome aboard whenever ye like.

Went 5-0 last night vs imperials, and have never had problems with the new brigands. [2k per pirate for an alpha-turtle run in 4-5 man sloop]

Yup, I vaguely remember those runs. I think I may take ye up on that, matey. I'll see if I can't find ye this weekend.

atteSmythe,
glad to have some leads to follow
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Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

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Rappak

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There is the Puzzle Pirates Academy that's now up and running. You might want to go check them out... /me waits for an offical representitive.
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Rappak, memmer of the oceans.

Rappak- Ex-king of Something Powerful (Cobalt)/ex-Lord of Indestructible Fury, a caged free-bird forever.
Rappak- Officer in Easily Distracted (Midnight)/Mem helper in CT/Where am I?
[Jul 8, 2004 5:30:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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puzjunky wrote: 
so i'd say distance distance distance and force them to either come to you or run out of tokens.

Hrm. I haven't hit the seas again yet, but I have spoken with a few mates. Is this really the key to it? Running away until the brigands can't move is...well, it's incredibly boring.

I suppose that's it, though. The brigands are psychic, so you can't close with 'em when you're on even terms, because they'll never be hit and they'll always hit you. Running away is the only time their behavior is defined pretty much across AIs, so it's the only time that you can be reasonably sure that you know what it'll do and that you'll be safe.

While I used to use a 'run away and shoot' back in the day (forward, forward, left-shoot,right), that I'd all but forgotten about now, I did also enjoy closing in and trading shots before engaging. If that part of Sea Battle is useless now, I'll be very disappointed - better to just assign damage to each ship based on the sailors' performance, skip the battle nav and get right on to the swordfight.

atteSmythe,
prejudging, which he knows is bad
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Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

[Jul 8, 2004 6:46:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://attesmythe.com [Link]  Go to top 
Lizzie

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I remember what I used to do back in the day - circle around rocks and let the brigands drive themselves into them. *sighs* Yes that was almost a year ago and I'm just as sucky as atteSmythe here. If anyone was keen to come sailing with me, watch my battle nav and tell me where I was going wrong, it would be much appreciated. :)
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Ravine
Black Death, Midnight

[Jul 8, 2004 7:01:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Amosko

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atteSmythe wrote: 

atteSmythe,
prejudging, which he knows is bad


It does get boring running away, but it sometimes takes some skill as well (not that I'm very good at it). Often you'll end up in a position too close to run away effectively and you'll have to guess where they are moving to in order to avoid their fire while you make your getaway.

But then, once you're about 6 spots ahead, it becomes a waiting game...
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Zebulan, Scribe of Innocent of Silver Dawn!
The Ruby Arch: More fun than a barrel!!
[Jul 8, 2004 7:06:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Telastyn



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I won't run away, as that's just kinda cheap, but I generally do let the brigands come to me and stay out of range



They *are* psychic/good, and if you get within 3 moves of their broadside, you should consider yourself shot. If they're sailing towards your broadside, you can shoot them and they can't shoot you... which is the goal, right?
[Jul 8, 2004 7:16:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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What ye need to do is choose yer ground for battle/engagement. And remember that it is not essential to fill them full of shot, but it is very desirable to avoid GETTING shot. And I'd be happy to have ye along on a pillage anytime.
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[Jul 8, 2004 7:23:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ayli



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atteSmythe wrote: 
puzjunky wrote: 
so i'd say distance distance distance and force them to either come to you or run out of tokens.

Hrm. I haven't hit the seas again yet, but I have spoken with a few mates. Is this really the key to it? Running away until the brigands can't move is...well, it's incredibly boring.


Once you get four or five mates or more on a ship of appropriate size, running away until they run out of moves just plain will not work. At that point the brigand ship is guaranteed to have enough bots aboard to staff all the stations reasonably well, and they'll just keep making tokens and shooting you. The only way to get them to run out of moves is to be undermanned yourself, and likely you will still need to shoot them at least a few times before they slow down noticeably.
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[size=10]Ruby: because telling your grandkids how you singlehandedly beat those three light blue brigands just isn't the same
[Jul 8, 2004 7:47:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
quixmix

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I'll be glad to help anyone with their nav, 50% of the battle is knowing the interface and the tricks I guess is a good word for it. The other half is style and personal preference. But above all its actually 100% practice. Just shoot me a tell or whatever in game, and if I'm not terribly busy, I'll join you for a bit.

Shur is correct in comparing swordfighting style to battle nav style, and the ability to "pick it out". There's actually quite a bit of psychology involved in "being good". Many of us take it for granted because we work intuitively rather than scientificly. But there's quite a bit of "feeling it out" in regards to timing, shot exchanged, and knowing if a fight is worth it at an early point in the game. There's a lot more to take into consideration, those being just a few examples...the battle nav puzzle is actually one of the most engaging, and multi-fasceted activities on YPP. And when you get to the point where you know what you're doing, even losing can become something to not be pissed about, but rather one where you appreciate and learn from your opponent, brigand or human. But aye, its frustrating to get to that point, and takes loads of time and practice.
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Ace o' Hearts
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AquaDrake

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ayli wrote: 
Once you get four or five mates or more on a ship of appropriate size, running away until they run out of moves just plain will not work. At that point the brigand ship is guaranteed to have enough bots aboard to staff all the stations reasonably well, and they'll just keep making tokens and shooting you. The only way to get them to run out of moves is to be undermanned yourself, and likely you will still need to shoot them at least a few times before they slow down noticeably.


The question isn't: "Are you undermanned".
The question is: "Are they undermanned".

If the computer attacks you with more briggands, and goes up into the next class ship, that means that you might be at 90%, and them at 60%.

Now think about that 'next ship class' being a merchant ship.

12 in a cutter vs 15 in a merch?

28 in a war brig vs 35 in a merch galley?
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Maybe "historical" dragons were pterosaurs?
http://www.livescience.com/animals/090107-pterosaur-flight.html

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He grew so fast no plotting pack could shrink him far enough.&quot
[Jul 8, 2004 10:13:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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I have actually gotten a lot better at battle nav after the change, for some crazy reason. I've gone about 6-0 against imperials this last week, though as you can see I don't pillage often. The key is, now that last-second token placement doesn't work, you have to go back to the original strategy found in one of the guides at the top of the forum. Namely, get into a position where if they move at all you will hit them. Even if you take as much damage as they do this way, after about 3 shots they will be hurting, while you can repair the damage by sitting on carp for a turn or so and then shoot them up.
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CapnKiri



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I'm still learning mate - so I can't tell you what to do to be better - but I can tell you how I've been able to get from completely frustrated to actually winning some and enjoying it more while I learn.

For practicing battle nav - I'd definitely go to a sloop. Also - if you've got a spare alt - use that. The Seabattle stats will be lower and it'll give you time to ramp up your skills against the brigands, rather than be blown out of the water every time. Of course the booty will suck - but I don't think that's the point at the moment?

Also - do you have access to a voice server? If you can voice chat while you are bnavving with people who are helping you out - that makes correcting your strategy possible while you are still in the middle of the battle. I think I found this the single biggest help. (Voice Servers - Yahoo and msn can do both 1 on 1 and conference).

Kiri
(who last night did an emerald run, and only lost 2 out of 5 battles! Woo Hoo!)
P.S.
I don't know if it's just me - but I'm finding they run out of tokens after about 3-4 turns. So waiting for them to run out is not necessarily that boring - in a sloop anyways.
(I'm in a sloop with 1-2 others and swabbies).
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Midnight Ocean: Why limit yrself to one archipelago?
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Darlatan



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I've found that it isn't running, so much as approaching the engagement with caution. It's true that if I don't like the area on the map I start out in, I will move my vessel to a better location. I don't feel it's running, so much as choosing my battleground.

When I battlenav, I tend to spend most of it jockeying for position. I keep just out of range, and try to second-guess the brigands. Once I get a couple shots in them, it's downhill from there as their bilge starts to fill. In most of my battles against Imperials, it's four or five turns before I even take a shot, and usually about ten turns before I feel as if I've gained any sort of advantage.

As a general rule, I check every gift horse I get. If I see the brigand potentially open itself to attack, I look to make sure they can't do something unexpected and surprise me - if I think there is a ever a small chance they can, I change my plans and do something opposite to what I intended (id est, I let the opportunity pass), and wait for a better opportunity.

Hope this helps, even just a little.
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Mazda
[size=10]Captain, Raiders of the Lost Arch
Proud citizen of Gaea, in the Emerald Archipelago

$pCount++;
[Jul 8, 2004 11:06:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.respectpirates.org    ixdigital94043    Marahai [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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And here I thought he wanted to learn about b-nav not manipulating the AI.
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CapnKiri



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Whitefire wrote: 
And here I thought he wanted to learn about b-nav not manipulating the AI.


Huh? I'm sorry I don't understand Whitefire - do you want to explain what you mean?

Isn't learning about bnav, partially about understanding the AI? At what point does that become manipulating?

Kiri
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Ramiro Jr wrote: 
Yohoho!, sir. Yohoho!

Midnight Ocean: Why limit yrself to one archipelago?
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54x

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CapnKiri wrote: 
Whitefire wrote: 
And here I thought he wanted to learn about b-nav not manipulating the AI.


Huh? I'm sorry I don't understand Whitefire - do you want to explain what you mean?

Isn't learning about bnav, partially about understanding the AI? At what point does that become manipulating?

Kiri


No, learning battle nav is primarily about learning how to assess the moves of the other player, and assess your own possibilities. After that it is learning how to predict your opponent, and as a small subsection of that, manipulating or becoming familiar with the AI.
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from Midnight.
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Whitefire

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54x wrote: 
CapnKiri wrote: 
Whitefire wrote: 
And here I thought he wanted to learn about b-nav not manipulating the AI.


Huh? I'm sorry I don't understand Whitefire - do you want to explain what you mean?

Isn't learning about bnav, partially about understanding the AI? At what point does that become manipulating?

Kiri


No, learning battle nav is primarily about learning how to assess the moves of the other player, and assess your own possibilities. After that it is learning how to predict your opponent, and as a small subsection of that, manipulating or becoming familiar with the AI.


To do well against the AI you have to learn the rules it plays by and trick it into going where you want it to go. Although players can be made to do the same, they will not alawys move as you expect while the AI always will. Naving against the AI is a set pattern that can be repeated over and over again. Learning to nav against humans requires ingenuity, intuition and guts.
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skington

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atteSmythe wrote: 
Back in the Day, Black Opal, with primarily me at the helm, had an win ratio of over 80% - now I have trouble breaking even.


On a cutter today, I won 5 out of 5, with a sixth lost because I disconnected partway through. With a fairly equitable crew cut, I made 1,500 PoE overall, fighting mostly Sailors and divvying three times, with the 15% crew cut paying for expenses. I also got three greenies for my crew, although that might be because I was sailing the Dodgy Mullet :-).

I'm finding that I really like rocks, not because they'll sail into them, but because it limits their options. (Same goes for the edge of the board.) My favourite parts of battle nav are when I end up in a position where, no matter what first move they make, I'm going to hit them with shot :-). I also notice that moving at the last minute works if you were already in a position where, if they moved at all, they'd be shot, no matter what they did. They've already decided not to do anything, so that one works.

Some also seem to have blind spots, although this might just be for the lower ranks. I've been able to, remarkably unsubtly, sail up to one side of a brigand and empty my guns into them. Other brigands also tend to sail directly towards my guns rather than veer away, which frankly surprises me. Oh, and I haven't seen a single sailor realise that sailing into a current going in the opposite way doesn't actually do any good. I've seen brigands waste four tokens sailing into a prevailing current, which is especially nice if you're shooting them as they go.

I also notice that brigands tend to save up tokens for when they might get grappled, and at the last minute pull out a flurry of tokens to get the hell away from your grapple lines. Which is fair enough, that's what I'd do too.

This is with non-Imperials, I'll grant you. I merely wanted to say that you can still make a nice amount of money by pillaging.
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Leaddolphin, Captain of Serve No Porpoise, Valiant Prince on Cobalt. I want your Plaices!
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arya_stark



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I hate battle nav, I'm terrible at it, and I despise getting stuck doing it.

That said, I've gotten infinitely better at it since the changes. Like, I have no clue what I'm doing. I don't try to anticipate a brigand's moves, knowing that their moves are based off of anticipating mine-- that's a lot like Vezzini trying to figure out which cup the iocaine powder is in. I do pretty much the same thing I always have, only now, it seems to work.

What I do is try to run away. When they close on me, I only try to plan for that first move, and spend the rest of my moves getting away from them. They're GOING to close, so it makes it pretty easy for me to plan that first shot and then get out of their range.

It's funnt, because I consider myself to be a pretty horrible battle naver, but in the last few days, I haven't been shot a single time. It's almost as though the updates were designed so people who don't know what they're doing have the advantage against the AI-- like the brigs plan their moves specifically targetting players who are really good at bnav.
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[size=10]Underfoot, Carpenter of Llyr's Pact
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bokodasu



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arya_stark wrote: 
It's funnt, because I consider myself to be a pretty horrible battle naver, but in the last few days, I haven't been shot a single time. It's almost as though the updates were designed so people who don't know what they're doing have the advantage against the AI-- like the brigs plan their moves specifically targetting players who are really good at bnav.


You know, I've sort of felt the same way. Battle nav has definately gotten easier for me - when I'm soloing. Unfortunately, everyone I know is an Ultimate sea battler, so if anyone else hops on my ship, I'm in trouble. I mean, the other day I did a little circle dance with a brig, hitting it after every turn while it kept trying to grapple the ocean. That never used to work.

The only downside is that I fire cannons a lot more, because I actually feel like I have a chance of hitting these days. So my payouts have gone up, but so have my shot costs - I guess it all evens out.
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[size=9]Tomyris, Cult of the Red Mantis, Looterati
Bonnie, Octafish Dream, Viridian
[Jul 11, 2004 10:08:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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bokodasu wrote: 
The only downside is that I fire cannons a lot more, because I actually feel like I have a chance of hitting these days. So my payouts have gone up, but so have my shot costs - I guess it all evens out.

Ditto on your observations - only I limit the shot I use per ship size, so my costs haven't gone up, only my damage dealt per battle.

atteSmythe,
who still needs to take up some of these fine mates on their offers of training
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Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

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