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garf



Joined: Jun 17, 2003
Posts: 860
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permissions priority Reply to this Post
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i know that more detailed permission systems fer crew are on the list, but i feel that it gets an urgent matter now with the expansion speed.

with crews of hundred and more pirates, the captain has a hard time of keeping track of promotions. and the current system requires that you trust everyone ye make an officer since he can do with all ships as he likes. yesterday i witnessed a case where a mate lost a lot of supplies parked on a ship due to another officer just selling them, perhaps having overseen the crew issue being posted.

we surely could do with a quick fix without any fancy interface system, just console oriented. a lot of games (daoc being the one i know best) even get away with one that only uses console years through being in retail.

what would be needed is a flexible ranks and permission system.

an ideal solution would include the ability to have an arbitrary number of ranks, each with settable permissions and abilities.

these permissions would be:

- take out ships (preferably by individual ship, or at least per maximum ship size)
- issue orders fer the ship and charting courses (this could be helpfull fer leading the larger vessels that you dont want taken out by just any officer, but they should be able to help ordering it around when being aboard under a ranking officer) and take control of the sea battle puzzle
- trading from and to ships (again per ship)
- promoting up to own rank - 1
- demoting from up to own rank - 1
- inviting to crew to job
- inviting to join crew as full member
- kicking jobbers from crew
- kicking full members
- ability to do the various puzzles (similar to only pirates being allowed to gun now, just fer all the puzzles)
- ability to access various levels of officer chat channels.. for starters, one officer chat would surely be enough


all these neednt be put into an interface, just a /setpermission ranknumber ability yes/no would do since only captains would use that thing and even them only once and rarely ever again.

what do ye think? does this need priority already, or can it wait?
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 21, 2003 10:47:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Squidbeard

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Joined: Jul 2, 2003
Posts: 1107
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Crew management Reply to this Post
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Sounds to me like ye got yerself a taste of the Joys o'Captaincy, matey!

I'm no Libertarian (fine Flag though they be), but I think that yer lookin' fer gummint regulation where personal responsibility ought to be the course ye set. The Captain is the Captain, and if his word isn't Law within his Crew, then he be doin' somethin' terrible wrong. If ye crew have rules, and yer Officers can't follow 'em, then they be demoted to Barnacle Scraper right quick, if not kicked outta the Crew altogether. If ye can't keep track o'yer dozens of mates, mebbe it be time to split some off and let yer best officer start 'is own Crew.

An' if one o'yer Officers be emptyin' out the ship's hold against yer will, I say keel haul the dirty son of a seagull!

Nobody said a Pirate's life was all rum and roses...

--Sq
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Squid
High Priest, Cult of the Red Mantis
[Jul 21, 2003 11:07:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://looterati.goldfish.org [Link]  Go to top 
garf



Joined: Jun 17, 2003
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Re: permissions priority Reply to this Post
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i aint no captain, and it wasnt me trade goods that vanished, mate. also, that was nothing but a mere example.

what yer suggesting basically says ye cant have truely large crews in the game while i think they be needed to fully play out the flag war/blockade thingy.

and a single captain can only do so much. if it wasnt for nothing else, there be players from all around the world, and due to time differences, they maybe dont ever catch their captain online.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 21, 2003 11:21:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Squidbeard

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Joined: Jul 2, 2003
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Crew responsibilities Reply to this Post
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Don't get me wrong -- I'm just some guy that's been playing for three weeks, give or take.

I remember reading way back in the old developer's notes somewhere that their guesstimate for average crew size was somewhere in the neighborhood of thirty pirates. That should allow you enough crewmen to man a ship at any given time, without the headaches of trying to run a small corporation. I figured that when yer crew grew so large that it was tough to manage, it was time to ask one of yer mates to start a new crew under yer Flag. That way, ye've still got closely allied crews that you can look to for help with jobbin' or blockades.

Now, like I said, I've only been around a little while. These ideas may have changed. And more sophisticated crew management tools may be a good idea. I just think it would be neat if Crews stuck to runnin' a few ships, and if Flags were more closely-knit extended families.

At any rate, a Captain needs to maintain discipline in his crew, and especially in his officer corps. To paraphrase Nemo from a different forum: There's a lot of behavior can be fixed with /plank <idiot>.

Of course, a few months from now, I may be tryin' to control 150 pirates over six ships, and screamin' for the tools yer requestin' so politely now. I'm curious to hear what some of the more senior Captains think.

--Sq
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Squid
High Priest, Cult of the Red Mantis
[Jul 22, 2003 12:04:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://looterati.goldfish.org [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Joined: May 2, 2003
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Re: permissions priority Reply to this Post
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Arr, I dunno if I count as senior, but I be the cap'n Garf be worried about folks catchin' in game long enough to get promoted.

I posted a nice in-game persmission system on these har forums sometime back, but I do be understandin' now why they can't give us one as of yet with the pace these devs be settin'.

Ye'll notice that in the Rudder Lubbers, we use a social hiarchy and fixed tasks fer promotion to handle our numbers. It has made us the largest crew in the game, and bein' of size does have its hurdles, o' course.

But we ain't done growin' yet. Surely we shall spawn some more crews fer our flag, but I also be anxious to be able to field armadas under one crew.

That still be no issues we can't overcome with proper social structures, but it would be easier with a permission system. At several points in our growth, we have had cause to reevaluate how we do thangs. (This be one of them with the influx!) No' to do so would have froze our numbers at various points in the past. I be confident that we shall be fine when this current growth spurt settles, too.

Fer instance, thar be no reason a mate needs to catch me online to get a promotion. We have the Rudder Lubbers Crew Council in place now that can help me sort the promotions out, and we shall likley end up with a promotions board before it be o'er. Then the board folk can jest PM me on the Flag Site when someone needs promotin'.

Arr, it do sound a bit like a corporation, but jest wait til ye see our hostile take-o'ers. Not of ye crew, mind ye, matey. Orange Revolution be usin' the same rankin' system we do. And they be growin' like wildfire now.
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Pennsuedo

My art: http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all
[Jul 22, 2003 12:50:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: permissions priority Reply to this Post
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I think you're both right.

Squidbeard is right that a truly active, informed captain who isn't afraid to use the little stick (/plank), the big stick (expulsion), and the gun (/complain) should be able to run any crew. . .

. . . as long as it is truly autocratic. Right now, the tools of the game only allow autocratic to function using the "personal responsibility" model, the one where the captain gives the orders and people follow them.

The problem is that most crews aren't iron-fist ones, but are forced to be because of varying dedication levels and play times in the crew. My impression is that most crews have a small core of 2-5 people who run the crew. All of them are officers, but since they don't want to/can't run everything, or sometimes misjudge people, or have a crazy idea about having mostly or all officers in the whole crew, other folk get let in as officers, and the trouble starts. You can't do oligarchy very well in the game, and I don't know of anyone who's democratic. So, crews are in theory run by one person, but in practice run by a small committee, which is in turn smaller than the number of officers in the crew.

Garf's permissions -- discussed a number of times elsewhere, but not with so many potential permissions -- would help create an intermediate space between the core groups that run crews and the people they want to be able to take out ships.

The biggest permission I would want to see added is the ability to restrict who takes things OUT -- selling goods or just plain cash -- of the ship.

The ship's log, for the iron-fisters, will enable captains to punish those who steal from the ship, but it won't prevent the theft from happening to begin with, which was the point of Garf's tools. Or one of them. At least, the way I read it.
[Jul 22, 2003 1:05:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
garf



Joined: Jun 17, 2003
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Re: permissions priority Reply to this Post
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arr, penn. i wasnt jest worrying about ye finding the time to do it, it is also about how good ye know the people ye can trust, and under the current system, an officer is someone with a lot of rights only trusted people can take.

i do feel we have a fine bunch of officers in our crew, but we do need more as we grow, and the more we need, the less can we know all of them before promoting, aye?

homullus - aye, that was one of the major thoughts behind that. its not just limited to the filled trade vessel, of course... some crews may want to get the crew cut to fund larger vessels and do no have the officers take them out at will. again, just another example.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 22, 2003 1:32:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
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