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Quizzical



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Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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I think some of the statements in here are flagrantly obvious, but a lot of players, even ship captains, don't seem to agree.

So yes, teaming is overrated. Please don't misunderstand me here: I'm not saying that it is irrelevant or not useful or anything of that sort. But judging by the rhetoric during swordfights, even if teaming were by far the biggest factor in who wins sea battles (and it is not), it would still be overrated.

There is a reason why we have a battle nav. It is not just to waste time until we can get on to the teaming in swordfights. Many battles are won and lost in the battle nav, with the swordfight merely an afterthought, its outcome a forgone conclusion.

Indeed, even apart from this, there is a reason why people spend most of their time in the swordfight (before they are dead) looking at the pieces falling on their screen. Someone who repeatedly drops 2x12 and 3x8 swords on the opposition is going to do much more to kill the opponents than someone who drops only sprinkles, regardless of whom they're attacking.

There are also factors which inhibit teaming on large vessels. The five second delay in seeing where everyone else is is a major factor, as if you join a group of two, it may well have five on the next update. You may switch to join someone else right as he switches. Swabbies will switch around erratically. On large fights, your target may not even show up on the list, making it better to spend your time focusing on blocks than to spend 10 second searching through the list to see that you're already attacking someone with two other people.

In spite of this, there is still whining about teams even when people do team properly. It seems that most of the people who shout about teams don't bother to check whether people are actually teaming well or not before telling them to team better.

Indeed, the only factor that makes teaming special, to justify all the hysteria about it, is that it's the only factor in swordfights where you can see what your opponents are doing. You can't see if they're dropping massive combos or just sprinkles. You can't see what colors of blocks and breakers they have where. Perhaps we are fortunate that teammates cannot see that, or else the busybodies who scream about teams may well tell us that we could have had an instant-kill double vegas if only we'd rotated the block before last.

For that matter, teaming isn't always even beneficial. For example, today I had a combo set up to drop a 3x10 sword on the enemy. The opponent I was attacking was nearly dead, and may well have been instantly killed by a 2x4, so dropping the 3x10 would have been a waste. I went solo just before dropping the 3x10, and about 10 seconds later, the bot I dropped it on died, after having only a half-full screen before that. I do things like that reasonably often in sea battles. Further, I'm certainly not a great swordfighter, so I expect that more than a few others are capable of doing the same--and probably often do.

It has reached the point where any loss, regardless of the circumstances, is likely to be attributed to improper teaming. Booch the battle-nav to start with an extra four rows of damage, and then blame the resulting loss on your teammates who didn't team well enough. Lose a duel and it's because of improper teaming. Die because you attacked a red ship, and it's for lack of better teaming. I haven't personally seen the black ship, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if some people who lose to it blame it on simply not teaming well enough.

Certainly, there are matches which are lost for lack of better teamwork. But those are far rarer than some seem to believe. There is probably not one such loss for every ten times that someone tells their teammates to team better. For that matter, there is probably not one loss of any variety per ten times that someone complains about improper teaming. Most losses would have still been losses even with the best teaming practical given the five second delay.

Even when such losses come, it is exceedingly unlikely that they'd have been won if only more people had talked about teaming during the swordfight. Most of the players know to team and probably already are, and the ones that aren't probably are too busy swordfighting to read the chat anyway, unless they're already dead and not dropping swords on anyone.

So please, you can officially stop shouting "Teams!" and "Team up!" in the middle of swordfights. It's getting really, really annoying, and not terribly helpful. I'm not at all opposed to talking strategy before the fight, such as "Cleavers and Skull Daggers first" or "Teams of 3, no more". But simply shouting "Teams!" in the middle of the swordfight merely clutters the chat, and does not convey any such useful information.

Oh, and since this post is in Game Design (I wasn't really sure where to put it), any chance we could get a way to filter short messages containing "team" or some variant of it? ;)
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[Jun 15, 2004 10:03:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aur

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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I disagree.
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~Aur
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[Jun 15, 2004 10:11:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AkMedic

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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I strongly disagree. Sorry mate, but you are way off on this one:)
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[Jun 15, 2004 10:12:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    AlaskanParamedic [Link]  Go to top 
Althalus

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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/me feels a flame war coming on...
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[Jun 15, 2004 10:13:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://tyr.simplecodes.com/forum    theirvman84    MasterAlthalus [Link]  Go to top 
Telastyn



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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Yes, teaming is overrated. Still important, but usually not life or death. Or even as important as comboing or battle nav... To me [as someone who bypasses battle nav as unimportant] being a good swordfighter [read: knowing how to combo] is more important than teaming. But I am in the minority.
[Jun 15, 2004 10:38:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Crystallina

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Here's how I look at it.

Bots will never kill themselves, so if a bot is left unattended with 3/4 of its screen full, someone better kill it before it unloads the excess blocks. (That is, unless an attack is in the queue that will take it out.)

On the flip side, if you are about to send an instakill, it's best to send it to someone who doesn't already have, say, 3 blocks left. (Remember the differences between bot instakills and player instakills.)
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PLEASE PEOPLE, IF YOU DONT AGREE DONT REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jun 15, 2004 10:43:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    YPP+Crystallina [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Is your left foot more important than your right?
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[Jun 15, 2004 10:44:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dementia



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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Nemo wrote: 
Is your left foot more important than your right?


Only since I got the bionic implants.
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- Ajani, Into the Sunset

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[Jun 15, 2004 11:04:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    LifeAheadofYou [Link]  Go to top 
Duraznos



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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Quizzical wrote: 
So yes, teaming is overrated. Please don't misunderstand me here: I'm not saying that it is irrelevant or not useful or anything of that sort. But judging by the rhetoric during swordfights, even if teaming were by far the biggest factor in who wins sea battles (and it is not), it would still be overrated.


Hear, hear!

It's not like good teaming isn't important in sea battle, it's just that now random greenies and jobbers are jumping on the bandwagon, yelling "RETEAM" every time someone gets knocked out as though they are playing their own puzzle which is called Teams, which ye only booch when everyone fails to comply with yer orders immmediately.

It's the 80/20 rule. Good teaming is only 20% of the deciding factors in a battle, but bad teaming is 80%.

It doesn't matter how fervently ye type "/shout RETEAM" as soon as ye get knocked out, yer not going to turn a random crew into an elite fighting force with the mighty power of your will.
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Paralepsis
[Jun 15, 2004 11:10:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pezzazz

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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This is just stupid. Of course teaming is important. Sure, it may not be important all the time when you have a navver that maxes your opponent, but even then, you can never take your chances in the swordfight.

Juggla
[Jun 15, 2004 11:19:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Althalus

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Nemo wrote: 
Is your left foot more important than your right?


If anything it's less important, you drive with your right foot :-D
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[Jun 15, 2004 11:29:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://tyr.simplecodes.com/forum    theirvman84    MasterAlthalus [Link]  Go to top 
Shanoyu

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Teaming is either an important factor that determines victory or irrelevant to sea battle, depending on circumstances. Often the swordfight itself can be irrelevant and i'm not entirely sure if it's a good game mechanic for large pillages, re: GF pillaging.

I think that whenever you're going to have more than 20 people in a sea battle they should be divided into different fights that a) the cilent can handle more easily b) is more fun than a formality to SB, then re-add people to the other sf's as the smaller fights end.

But yeah you make some good points, it's sometimes not a good idea to team. Cluttering the chat itself is good though, shouting teams is actually helpful to people who tunnel-vision puzzles; If i'm not looking at the chat you need to spam the heck out of it to get my attention with movement in the lower right corner.

As for a filter, if you don't want to listen to what whoever is on board is saying, why should they let you on their ship? You might kick me off your ship when I didn't hear you say "Don't team!" and then not understand you when you said "SOLOS" (as in, don't do it, but you intended otherwise.)

On a larger vessel where it actually matters /shout should be the only form of full vessel chat anyway.

Also, it would be nice if the client would STOP defaulting to Vessel whenever I entered a puzzle, at least on a Frigate Class ship
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[Jun 15, 2004 11:33:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tommy

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Althalus wrote: 
Nemo wrote: 
Is your left foot more important than your right?


If anything it's less important, you drive with your right foot :-D


Automatic transmissions are for old people. [color=#f8f8f8:148e8f7fc6]and women.

-Greenwolf
[Jun 15, 2004 11:33:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Keeir



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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Outside of Quizzical's views of teaming (pirate parley perhaps?)

thier actually game design suggestion:
 

Oh, and since this post is in Game Design (I wasn't really sure where to put it), any chance we could get a way to filter short messages containing "team" or some variant of it? ;)


Sounds like, in the rest of your post, your main problem is with and/or
A. Your Crew
B. The People you job with
C. the people you job on your own boat
D. Specific People
in that a group/combination of groups annoy you during Sea Battle by repeatedly yelling the same thing.

A few in-game solutions:
1. Educate the offending parties by asking for little/no chat during battle
2. Don't job with them, IE, jump the boat.
3. Plank the repeat offenders
4. /mute
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Keeir at Jun 15, 2004 11:45:58 AM]
[Jun 15, 2004 11:45:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Sometimes saying "Teams!" comes as the result of lag between the speaker's client and what you're doing.

Sometimes you get absorbed in your fight, and seeing the chat screen scroll up with a "Teams!" reminds you to check yours, and you switch targets.

You're entitled to your opinion that it's all useless . . . but you're wrong.
[Jun 15, 2004 12:00:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
LongJohnGrey

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Good teaming is VERY important.

Imagine a war game where everyone has a row of pieces, equal in strength, along the front line of a hexgrid.

Imagine that one player does straight 1 on 1 fights along the front line, and takes out 16.7% of the enemy, and 33% of himself.

Imagine that the other player does 2-on-1's on every other opponent, and takes out 33% of the enemy, and only 16.7% of himself.

The first person will have a force disadvantage.
The second person will have taken out as many of them as they did in return.

Now carry that to 3-to-1 on every 6th, and 2-1's on a few inbetween.

Hmm, did I just date myself with my SPI background?

Ok, another view of teaming:

Consider three greenies, each with a foil, with just the basic skills taught (form 2x2 blocks, use breakers whenever you can. If you get two breakers on one block, try for a double). Make sure the foils are compatible (different color patterns).

What will they do?

They will send 1x4's -- no major pattern combos (not the 2x2's that foils do on large strikes). Since each one will be sending stuff at the same target, from different color patterns, none of those 1x4's will pair up.

They will send sprinkles, and just single rows (these are greenies, remember?). No vertical paring. But since each of them have different color paterns, none of those will match with anyone else.

The result?

Those three greenies, with the three worst swords, will do almost perfect non-matching blocks, causing Major Havok.

Against bots? You get almost perfect 25% distribution of blocks, guaranteeing the least damaging possible bot return.

Against players? There will be constant sprinkles and swords of silver. There won't be much exposed color; the ability to build and strike back will be limited.

Still not convinced? Ok, Mr. Super Swordsman, lets look at that again. Lets look at a big brawl. On your side, you've got a bunch of skilled BD members all playing solo, building instakills. On the other side, some experienced players (respected, not super duper, but decent) that know perfect 3 - 1 teaming. While you are busy trying to build up an instakill, the other team is building up nasty strikes and annoyances.

If the two sides were perfectly equal, it's pretty simple -- the side that teams will take out the players on the other team faster. If I know that I only have to build up nasties, not instakills, and rely on multiple nasties instead of single instakills, then ...

The annoyances will cancel out some of the instakills.
The nasty strikes will add up.

In the time it takes you to develop an instakill, the nasties and annoyances will take out people as well.

In a 9 on 9 fight:

Your team has 6 unoccupied people. That's 6 instakills. Poof.
Our team takes out 3 of your occupied people. That's 3.

Except that I can take out your person before the instakills are made. So, after taking out your first three, I start on your next three.

BAM. 3 uninterrupted instakills hit my side. I'm now down to 6, you're down to 6. 3 of your 6 are blank screens, ready to rebuild. 3 of yours have a really nasty, almost instakill buired under a small amount of annoyance.

Now I finish off 2 of your buried; you get one instakill on me.
I've got 5, you've got 4.

Continue.

A good team of teamers will take out a more skilled team of fighters.
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Re: Market on Scurvy Reef:
Hypnos wrote: 
I didn't realize it was such a hot forage spot until I dropped it and three pirates showed up on the island in quick succession.
And it wasn't even 9 spaces from the arrow :-).
[Jun 15, 2004 12:25:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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tommy wrote: 
Althalus wrote: 
Nemo wrote: 
Is your left foot more important than your right?
If anything it's less important, you drive with your right foot :-D
Automatic transmissions are for old people. [color=#f8f8f8:e24f2cf343]and women.
-Greenwolf

...And he comes through in the clutch!
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Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
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[Jun 15, 2004 12:32:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Quizzical



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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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If people are going to say that I'm wrong, will someone at least make a case that it's not overrated, which is the entire point of this thread. Arguing that it is important is completely missing the point. Of course teaming is important, but it's only one of several important factors, along with setting up combos, battle nav, and so forth.

Perhaps the best explanation is an analogy:

Nemo wrote: 
Is your left foot more important than your right?


If people talked only about how important your left foot was, and never mentioned the right, then the left foot would indeed be overrated, and I'd tire of hearing about it. But both feet are important, obviously.

Keeir wrote: 
A few in-game solutions:
1. Educate the offending parties by asking for little/no chat during battle
2. Don't job with them, IE, jump the boat.
3. Plank the repeat offenders
4. /mute


The problem is that it's not just one or two people, or I'd mute them and be done with it. The people who compulsively scream the same thing over and over and over in battles may well have something useful to say outside of battle, and it's too big of a fraction of the community to simply avoid jobbing with such people.
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There is no "i" in "complex numbers".
[Jun 15, 2004 12:40:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cedric

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Okay, a case

Teaming is important if:

You haven't max-dmamaged your opponent

and:

your ship isn't full of ultimate swordfighters who can insta-kill bots at will

because:

Having your swordfighters spread out over multiple bots gives all of the bots "ammo" to fire back at you, making it harder to win the battle.

So, good teaming is important because bad teaming will often make the difference in a fight.


Now, I'd guess that over 75% of daily seabattles falls into the above category, so yes, teaming is important, and its in everyone's interest that the ocean as a whole knows it should team properly.

The occurance of people yelling "TEAMZZ!!!!1!" when dying is unrelated to the important of teaming, but rather exposes the need to train people in etiquette.
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[Jun 15, 2004 1:04:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Maverick1701 [Link]  Go to top 
Silverstar

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Crystallina wrote: 
Bots will never kill themselves, so if a bot is left unattended with 3/4 of its screen full, someone better kill it before it unloads the excess blocks.


Bots will, and happily do, kill themselves.
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[Jun 15, 2004 1:04:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/chirik    Chirik    yppSilvermoon [Link]  Go to top 
Skal

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/me opens can of worms

You want to know what's overrated? COMBOS are overrated.

oh yeah, and cannonballs...

/me runs away
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Sadiekate
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ramirojr



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Skal wrote: 
You want to know what's overrated? COMBOS are overrated.

oh yeah, and cannonballs...

And, ummm, anything that isn't the FORUMS!!

/me joins Crook in Shore Leave.

I'm becoming less and less useful...but I'm tired, gimme a break. I'll comment seriously later.
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My backpacking buddy wrote: 
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[Jun 15, 2004 1:20:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Rappak

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/me grabs a rope and lazzos Skal

psst. you for got rum too!

/me runs off with Skal
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Rappak- Ex-king of Something Powerful (Cobalt)/ex-Lord of Indestructible Fury, a caged free-bird forever.
Rappak- Officer in Easily Distracted (Midnight)/Mem helper in CT/Where am I?
[Jun 15, 2004 1:21:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DrunknBfly

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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tommy wrote: 
Althalus wrote: 
Nemo wrote: 
Is your left foot more important than your right?


If anything it's less important, you drive with your right foot :-D


Automatic transmissions are for old people. [color=#f8f8f8:62a8bb29a0]and women.

-Greenwolf


Green, you SUCK. Though I do drive with both feet, with an automatic.

Rum is overrated, actually. So is cannon. Basically, sailing with anything in your hold. Empty ship sailing 4 L!

Mm, teaming, like anything, isn't some hard and fast "Must have it or you die" thing. However, I don't believe there's a concrete argument against its usefulness. There are many fewer situations in which soloing is going to be more effective than teams of 2 or 3.
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[Jun 15, 2004 1:24:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://magiccheese.pyen.com/    Ravenlarke [Link]  Go to top 
tommy

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DrunknBfly wrote: 
tommy wrote: 
Althalus wrote: 
Nemo wrote: 
Is your left foot more important than your right?


If anything it's less important, you drive with your right foot :-D


Automatic transmissions are for old people. [color=#f8f8f8:7bdb99f199]and women.

-Greenwolf


Green, you SUCK. Though I do drive with both feet, with an automatic.


I believe I covered that scenario...

 
Rum is overrated, actually. So is cannon. Basically, sailing with anything in your hold. Empty ship sailing 4 L!

Mm, teaming, like anything, isn't some hard and fast "Must have it or you die" thing. However, I don't believe there's a concrete argument against its usefulness. There are many fewer situations in which soloing is going to be more effective than teams of 2 or 3.


Soloing is just another method of teaming. Teaming is everything. Knowing how to team is the most important.

-Greenwolf
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davidsinger



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I used to think that a good PvP method would be to not team. This way, no one can stall. I dislike stallers. Those skallywags. Anyways, it doesn't work as a method. Just think of the difference of having three mediocre swords on you VS a single skully on you. I would take the skully anyday.
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[Jun 15, 2004 2:12:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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tommy wrote: 
Soloing is just another method of teaming. Teaming is everything. Knowing how to team is the most important.


The most correct statements in this entire thread.

Good teaming isn't just targets of twos and threes. In swordfighting, good "teaming" is nothing. What's important is good Targetting. Any group that limits their sword (and thought) processes to simply twos and threes are missing a huge part of the equation. Good teamwork is dynamic, not static. It is constantly shifting and changing, using their strengths to cover their weaknesses. You don't see a crew just immediately assign random stations to random pirates, regardless of skill or need do ye?
[Jun 15, 2004 2:20:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AkMedic

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Shuranthae wrote: 
tommy wrote: 
Soloing is just another method of teaming. Teaming is everything. Knowing how to team is the most important.


The most correct statements in this entire thread.

Good teaming isn't just targets of twos and threes. In swordfighting, good "teaming" is nothing. What's important is good Targetting. Any group that limits their sword (and thought) processes to simply twos and threes are missing a huge part of the equation. Good teamwork is dynamic, not static. It is constantly shifting and changing, using their strengths to cover their weaknesses. You don't see a crew just immediately assign random stations to random pirates, regardless of skill or need do ye?


I think the limit though Shur is generally, jobbers and or larger crews do not understand these methods, and they are near impossible to implement (yes, I've tried). Advanced 'targeting' is prefered, but only works with a smaller, well trained group. A larger group or a crew unfamilar with the targeting techniques you describe does quite poorly attempting to 'shadow'. I think the reason folks yell teams is simply, it is more effective than solos, and it also is the easiest to explain, manage and implement with a larger group and or jobbers.
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[Aug 9, 2005 4:00:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    AlaskanParamedic [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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Perhaps the best explanation is an analogy:
Nemo wrote: 
Is your left foot more important than your right?
If people talked only about how important your left foot was, and never mentioned the right, then the left foot would indeed be overrated, and I'd tire of hearing about it. But both feet are important, obviously.

Well, there's a reason that people only talk about teaming, though. The other two involve getting better at the puzzles (Battle Nav and Swordfighting). Teaming involves counting to 3 and moving a dot (in its simplest form).

Encouraging people to do something anyone should be capable of is helpful and, well, encouraging. Telling someone, "We're losing, fight better!" isn't so helpful.

atteSmythe,
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[Jun 15, 2004 5:02:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://attesmythe.com [Link]  Go to top 
RobertDonald

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Re: Teaming is overrated Reply to this Post
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I quite agree.

 

Robertdonald says, "nothing wrong with soloing right before you instakill"
Robertdonald says, "I think it's quite fair to allow people to do whatever they think maximizes their team's chances of winning"
Robertdonald says, "including switching to the brigand with the empty board when they have a double vegas 100% instakill"


(Cribbed from a conversation yesterday.)

Teaming is largely just *bleep*. The whole teams of 3 rhetoric is a mimetic virus with no justification in results or theory.

But I'll give the theory of teaming now.

RobertDonald wrote: 
Another interesting rule is: one attack per drop. Thus, if your opponent is playing very very slowly, and you quickly break 10 separate small attacks while he drops one piece... Well, it'll be a LONG time before your 11th attack, the large one, will hit him. It'll be 11 of his long slow drops.


Also note that this rule holds true when multiple people are attacking one person. One attack per drop. Your target can stall for hours, any attacks queued up that would've occured after he, in fact, died, are wasted.

The overkill effect: if you have an attack that would kill a brigand, any blocks you send above and beyond that which would kill him are wasted.

These are the effects which make soloing the optimal strategy in many situations. For example, when you have maxed a brigand ship and you have a cadre of ultimate swordfighters, each of them only needs one attack to kill any given brigand. Thus soloing prevents too much waste.

The competing effect, of course, is that your attacks effectively sum up if they come slowly enough. So people who attack rarely and use midsize attacks can probably in fact make teams of 5 without losing any effectiveness. The teams of 3 rhetoric is because of the large number of bad swordfighters who repeatedly break incredibly small attacks, filling up the queue.


Note: all of the above theory is oriented toward brigand-killing. Also, it is largely just *bleep*, but it is designed to show how the earlier teams of 3 theory is just *bleep*. My intention is not to discover Truth, but to discredit Idiocy.

To sum up: teams of 3 is stupid. teams of 2 is stupid. teams of 1 is stupid. All these ideologies are stupid. The correct thing to do is, at any given time, use your attack on the bot with the most empty screen who will die to it... which would be a very full screen if you're not good at big attacks.
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Quizzical wrote: 
If winners and losers are arbitrarily chosen by ringers or OM's, then it is no longer even a game. It's just clicking random buttons hoping to be arbitrarily chosen, which becomes stupid really fast.

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