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GilZuker



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Distilling CC^13+ making expert labor more difficult and online tutorial Reply to this Post
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hello all.

hey everybody i wasnt sure where to post this, but this one seemed to be the most appropriate.

i saw that cc 13 and higher were now possible, i really want to know if this will make the already large gap between the expert distillers and everyone else even larger thereby making it impossible or very hard to do incredible at distilling or even expert labor, making an incredible session is already hard for most people, you have to do at least CC^11.

also i dont know why they did that, why make it more fun for the ones that can play well at the puzzle? why not make it easier to drag pieces or/and an online DISTILLING TUTORIAL (finally...) like the one there is for every other puzzle other then this one including the new blacksmithing one (i personally when i was a new player didnt understand a thing at distilling puzzle untill someone mentinoed there was a web tutorial that explained how the game works) or make the CC^x lower. or in other words, why not make the game easier for most of the people that are having diffucleties with the puzzle other then making the good guys better...
and one more thing, most of the people(at least 40 confirmed ones) i know HATE that puzzle(only 1 likes it, and me), mybe its time to change that.

thanks for listening.


I've edited the post topic to be more specific. - Faulkston
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Faulkston at Dec 25, 2007 12:43:04 PM]
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Grayside

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Re: the new CC^13 and above (I think its bad) Reply to this Post
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Amongst other oddments, this thread includes some chat about the latest release and distilling. There is probably more Ice Discussion somewhere if you search back a few months.

The short answer mate, is that this will not make skilled players "better" in any way. The Top 10 Ult lists will get mixed up, but for most players, the quest to achieve high CC counts will always continue.

Most people I know hate at least one Crafting puzzle.
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Firestone, Captain, Mad Tea Party, Cobalt
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Faulkston

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Re: the new CC^13 and above (I think its bad) Reply to this Post
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Will spreading out the top of the puzzle standing distribution ease downward pressure on the rest of the standings?

Faulkston,
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[Dec 25, 2007 12:48:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Donsmythe

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Re: the new CC^13 and above (I think its bad) Reply to this Post
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Will spreading out the top of the puzzle standing distribution ease downward pressure on the rest of the standings?


I don't think it will. In fact, if ice is any representation, I think it will make things worse. Pretty much, anything beyond a CC12 amounts to luck with the whites once you start sending rows up. If you can get 8.5-9 rows of whites set before you start sending them up, that's about as good as it's gonna get and you should get a CC12 or better on average; after you start sending up rows though, you're at the mercy of the random number generator giving you whites or not. I've had games where I got a CC11 because I only got 1 white in 5 of the rows I got. That time I had a CC9 set before sending anything so I thought I'd have the CC12 in the bag, but if you don't get the white pieces, there's precious little you can do! I've also had games where it's been generous to me and I've had up to a CC16.

What I see happening is that it's pretty much the same people on the ult list, except that the order is now randomized by the whims of the random number generator's distribution of white pieces. The order is no longer by experience, or even by actual talent with the puzzle, it's just plain random. I don't really care too much about that myself, though.

But it is now significantly harder to get an incred or an exc, which means (a) it's a lot harder now than it used to be to get up to renowned and (b) it's a lot harder for a sub-renowned player to get expert labor via puzzling their butt off. And that is likely to become a problem for rum production looking forward, since fine rum requires 33% expert labor, a remarkably high percentage when you consider that no type of cannonball requires any expert labor whatsoever. I guess that the handful who really can distill will be able to look forward to inflated pay for expert labor, fine rum prices will go up to compensate, and maybe people ought to start pulling out their rum calculators and buying the best deal instead of always buying fine rum without first engaging their brains (hint: more often than not, grog is the winner, just compare fine rum to grog on namath right now for a case study).

When I first learned how to distill on Midnight, a CC8+CC4 would net an incred if you were a little careful about spice management. Nowadays, even some CC11's won't net an incred. Even though I have a #1 distiller trophy and I usually get CC12's when I puzzle, I still find this a bit unreasonably steep. I'm honestly not sure how to improve this situation though. Perhaps things will stabilize to something reasonable after a month or twoMaybe CC13 and on shouldn't be worth much more than a CC12, so that the effect of the random number generator is manifest a bit less in the scoring curve.

On the other hand, the one change that counterbalances this a bit is that you can no longer dismiss a puzzle if it's not going your way. That's a great change, and does more to spread the score curve out by actual skill level than anything else they've changed recently in distilling. Now that every puzzle you do gets counted, it's pushed a few people out of the ult list that never belonged there in the first place.
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Kotetsu534



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Re: Distilling CC^13+ making expert labor more difficult and online tutorial Reply to this Post
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I've never gone beyond a CC^2 (or Fine) in the time I've played Distilling. I practiced it for three hours yesterday and got Poor on my last try, which has made my throw in the towel. I can get excellents in Alchemistry and Blacksmithing easily, so I'll stick with them. Distilling is very very difficult for me to even get a non-crap score in. Way harder than any other puzzle in PP. Just one of those things I guess.
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[Dec 25, 2007 2:46:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
imhappyfairy

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Re: Distilling CC^13+ making expert labor more difficult and online tutorial Reply to this Post
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There is nothing wrong with people going above CC 13, its a way of sorting out those who can perform at that level better than experience.

Surely there can't be that much of a lack of expert labour if the same percentage of people are performing at a renowned+ level as blacksmithing or shipwrighting? Or too many renowned+ alts in a few stalls taking up most of the top spaces as distilling isn't as popular as the other puzzles?

An online tutorial? Sure, I guess it would be helpful.
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[Dec 25, 2007 3:28:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
damagon

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For whatever is worth:

I have been playing PP for about 3 years. There is just no puzzle that I have given more dedication, time and effort than distilling. Not even for carps or BS (which are my favorite) I did such thing. The reason behind it was because I wanted to get incredible at least once (for the trophy). The puzzle literally made me sweat. In the past I played it casually, never getting above CC^2 , and that was with luck. After my training however, my best scored was a CC^9 + CC^3. I tried hard to get past that, but just didn't work. Although I did get my trophy. Oh and yeah, I have seen every tutorial video out there, learned all tricks and tactics , and I have gotten pretty fast. Probably as fast as I'd ever get.

I have been told that in order for me to get CC^12+ I need to be extremely fast, with a fast mouse and computer. Personally I don't think that's the way a puzzle should be.

Now not to brag, but I consider myself a rather good puzzler. I have gotten ultimate on every puzzle I've really put my mind on. One time I did a similar effort with BS, almost as much as my training with distilling, and I got #1. I am sure I could do the same with any puzzle, all I need is time and effort. But I know for a fact, it will never work for distilling.

Distilling is simply hard. Hands down the hardest puzzle in the game. I do feel that with this change the puzzle has gotten even harder. Specially if we consider that with my current perfomance there is no way I can get past Master.

So yeah I hate distilling. But not nearly as much as I hate ultimate distillers. :P
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Kotetsu534



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I think rows should only automatically go up after a certain number of moves, rather than after a certain amount of time.
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[Dec 25, 2007 5:23:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
fatfriar

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There is one reason the curve is so steep for distilling: LABOR ALTS
All those ult distilers make armies of labor alts to work in their stalls or just to make PoE. If labor alts were not included, I would wager anything that the curve would lessen masively. OOO needs to make it so that you don't affect the ranking curve in crafting puzzles unless you're active in a couple piracy puzzles. The laboralts would still be ranked by the curve and able to produce the labor needed, they jsut wopuld have no impact on the curve.
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[Dec 25, 2007 9:48:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Grayside

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Re: Distilling CC^13+ making expert labor more difficult and online tutorial Reply to this Post
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Donsmythe made all good points.
 
I have been told that in order for me to get CC^12+ I need to be extremely fast, with a fast mouse and computer. Personally I don't think that's the way a puzzle should be.

I don't know about computer speed increases, but you do need a mouse with good precision, and maximized reaction to click-and-drag. Default settings don't usually provide this. I've not yet figured out how to get my Kubuntu machine to have the same precision for distilling as my Windows box, and the Kubuntu machine is easily three times as powerful.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Grayside at Dec 25, 2007 10:01:52 PM]
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Donsmythe

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I have been told that in order for me to get CC^12+ I need to be extremely fast, with a fast mouse and computer. Personally I don't think that's the way a puzzle should be.

I don't know about computer speed increases, but you do need a mouse with good precision, and maximized reaction to click-and-drag. Default settings don't usually provide this. I've not yet figured out how to get my Kubuntu machine to have the same precision for distilling as my Windows box, and the Kubuntu machine is easily three times as powerful.


You're right that having very precise control over your mouse makes a huge difference. Whenever I use a different mouse, it really messes me up until I've done a couple of puzzles to adjust. A lot of distilling moves and speed comes from muscle memory.

But while speed is critical, so is efficiency. You can make yourself a lot faster by being more efficient with your moves. There may be three ways to get a particular piece from point A to point B. Picking the right path, the one that will be fastest to traverse and also leave the board in the most advantageous state for the next move(s) is going to make a difference. Think of distilling as if it's a maze, but the walls move as you walk through it. Not only do you want to move around the maze, but you want to leave the walls behind you in places that help you out later. A lot of moves I make while I distill seem odd to onlookers - why did you put that THERE? - but it keeps me from backing myself into a corner later on and/or helps me get through the puzzle faster.

So if you're playing as fast as you can get and still not getting the CC12, try to find ways that you can play smarter. I was able to get CC12's on an old Power PC Mac laptop, so having an old, slow computer doesn't make it an impossible feat, just difficult. Now that I have upgraded to a MacBook Pro dual core, the puzzle feels much nicer - dragging feels smoother - but I don't think my ability to do the puzzle really received that big a boost from the hardware upgrade. It's just a ton more pleasant to play now, mainly.

(And if you want to complain about slow hardware putting you at a disadvantage in a puzzle, I think that sword fighting, and especially rumble, are more sensitive to this than distilling. I did notice a difference in both when I upgraded, and the difference in rumble was striking, pardon the pun.)
[Dec 26, 2007 1:00:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://don.yacktman.org/blog/    yackd [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: the new CC^13 and above (I think its bad) Reply to this Post
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And that is likely to become a problem for rum production looking forward, since fine rum requires 33% expert labor, a remarkably high percentage when you consider that no type of cannonball requires any expert labor whatsoever.

Tthis is the fundemental problem, rum requires 33% expert labor but at any given time, only about 15% of the active puzzlers can provide offline expert labor (renowned is the top 15%). From what I know, rum is by far the largest seller for distilleries. While I strongly suspect that more than 15% of the actual employees are renowned+ because it is worth a lot more to them to keep up their labor, demand is still outstripping supply.

 
I guess that the handful who really can distill will be able to look forward to inflated pay for expert labor, fine rum prices will go up to compensate, and maybe people ought to start pulling out their rum calculators and buying the best deal instead of always buying fine rum without first engaging their brains (hint: more often than not, grog is the winner, just compare fine rum to grog on namath right now for a case study).

Exactly. But, far too many people don't even know about rum calculators, let alone pulling them out. Want to make a *DRAMATIC* change to the scoring curve of distilling? Put a simple message on the dockside buy screen that shows the equivalent prices of rum/grog/swill when you click on any of the booze. So, if you say, click on rum at 57 PoE, a message would be displayed that says "Rum at 57 PoE is equivalent to grog at 34.2 PoE or swill at 22.8 PoE". (And have similar messages when you click on swill/grog).

Suddenly, the demand for swill and grog will shoot up and expert labor demands will drop down to about the 15% that the labor market can supply. With the preasure off of everyone needing to get to renowned, the scoring curve will drop and it will be easier, but less useful, to get an incredible on distilling. There will still be a battle for the ranking of the Ults, but that won't hurt the labor market.

 
There is one reason the curve is so steep for distilling: LABOR ALTS

All those ult distilers make armies of labor alts to work in their stalls or just to make PoE. If labor alts were not included, I would wager anything that the curve would lessen masively. OOO needs to make it so that you don't affect the ranking curve in crafting puzzles unless you're active in a couple piracy puzzles.

I dislike labor alts and self-supplied labor for other reasons, but they aren't the cause of the high curve for distiling.

The thing I dislike about labor alts is that labor is one way of dispursing wealth from the rich/established pirates to the poor/newer pirates. To pirates that have hundreds of thousands of PoE and can make tens of thousands of PoE off of being a bnavver, a few hundre PoE/day doesn't mean much. To a new pirate though, that is an easy way to build wealth.
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tlz_allen

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Re: the new CC^13 and above (I think its bad) Reply to this Post
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I have a better idea. How 'bouts we just change the distill puzzle to a glass with a swizzle stick in it and we use the arrow keys to move the stick in a circular motion? I'm relatively sure I could get an incredible in that! :D
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lesleywalker

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Re: the new CC^13 and above (I think its bad) Reply to this Post
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The thing I dislike about labor alts is that labor is one way of dispursing wealth from the rich/established pirates to the poor/newer pirates. To pirates that have hundreds of thousands of PoE and can make tens of thousands of PoE off of being a bnavver, a few hundre PoE/day doesn't mean much. To a new pirate though, that is an easy way to build wealth.

The problem with that one is that there aren't enough pirates that simply want to take a job and leave it at that; once people become competent at the crafting puzzles, the shopkeeping puzzle becomes appealing and they start up their own stalls (I know I did!). I use a handful of labour alts because I need the labour, not because I'm greedy and want to get my POE back, and I'm pretty sure that would be true for the majority of shop/stallkeepers.
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wrs1864b

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Re: the new CC^13 and above (I think its bad) Reply to this Post
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The thing I dislike about labor alts is that labor is one way of dispursing wealth from the rich/established pirates to the poor/newer pirates. To pirates that have hundreds of thousands of PoE and can make tens of thousands of PoE off of being a bnavver, a few hundre PoE/day doesn't mean much. To a new pirate though, that is an easy way to build wealth.

The problem with that one is that there aren't enough pirates that simply want to take a job and leave it at that; once people become competent at the crafting puzzles, the shopkeeping puzzle becomes appealing and they start up their own stalls (I know I did!).

This isn't much different than those that think that all it takes to run a pillage is knowing how to bilge and gun. The difference is that shopkeeping is pure PvP with no might rings to protect them.

 
I use a handful of labour alts because I need the labour, not because I'm greedy and want to get my POE back, and I'm pretty sure that would be true for the majority of shop/stallkeepers.

The problem is that the pirates that are most likely to be interested in wages that shop jobs pay are the ones that really don't much about the game. They are still learning what a "grain bonus" is, and which order to put stuff in guns (and why they never get to gun, for that matter).

Neither of the two "obvious" ways of locating shop jobs do a good job of finding well paying jobs that actually have work to do. The Shop Job's tab usually shows shops with no work, and the work-at-job mission usually sends you to shops with full queues because they pay badly. If there actually was a competative labor market in this game, I think a lot few pirates that enjoy puzzling will figure they will have to start up their own stall in order to earn good wages.

Anyway, my point for this thread was that it isn't labor alts that mess up the curve. The imbalance in the demand for expert vs basic labor is the problem.
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tanonev

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Tthis is the fundemental problem, rum requires 33% expert labor but at any given time, only about 15% of the active puzzlers can provide offline expert labor (renowned is the top 15%). From what I know, rum is by far the largest seller for distilleries. While I strongly suspect that more than 15% of the actual employees are renowned+ because it is worth a lot more to them to keep up their labor, demand is still outstripping supply.


Would it be against the spirit of the game to create (and encourage others to create) "curve alts"? Create an alt, and once every ten days, play all the puzzles (perhaps only on the free days), and play them badly. ;)
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damagon

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Tthis is the fundemental problem, rum requires 33% expert labor but at any given time, only about 15% of the active puzzlers can provide offline expert labor (renowned is the top 15%). From what I know, rum is by far the largest seller for distilleries. While I strongly suspect that more than 15% of the actual employees are renowned+ because it is worth a lot more to them to keep up their labor, demand is still outstripping supply.


Would it be against the spirit of the game to create (and encourage others to create) "curve alts"? Create an alt, and once every ten days, play all the puzzles (perhaps only on the free days), and play them badly. ;)


That would never work. Although it'd be sweet as hell if it did.
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tanonev

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Why wouldn't it work? For every 100 alts created and used in this manner, one Legendary gets promoted to Ultimate...

Actually, even if regular pirates played the puzzles they hated just once every 10 days, it'd be more than enough to balance out the curves on the crafting puzzles (notice that the duty puzzles on Sage have ~10000 active scores, while the crafting puzzles have ~2000).
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damagon

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That's not what I meant. In theory , yes it would work. In practice it wouldn't. I just don't think you'll be able to find enough people to deliberately booch just to ease the curve of a puzzle. I'm sure that the few that may volunteer would not considerably affect the curve.
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lesleywalker

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Would it be against the spirit of the game to create (and encourage others to create) "curve alts"? Create an alt, and once every ten days, play all the puzzles (perhaps only on the free days), and play them badly. ;)

I already do that to get basic labour in my apoth. Otherwise the delivery time estimates go all stupid.

Edit: Besides, doing Bad Alchemy can fun, exploding all those bottles. Distilling, not such fun. You would just click, click, click until it says "finished" - reminds me of foraging....
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Cheery - Alchemist, Ankh-Morpork City Watch, Cobalt
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by lesleywalker at Dec 26, 2007 10:00:09 PM]
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sweetnessc

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If you can get an Ult in guns, you've got more than enough control and speed on your mouse to get cc12+ in distilling. For distilling the control problem means you need to slow down rather than speed up the mouse movements. And always, always find a stall without a pet in it to distill - pets just make the pieces jumpy and destroy my performance.

If you're getting cc9s then what you need to be looking at is not technique but strategy - how to get yourself more time and set up your board to save time later on. That's what makes the difference above the cc8 level.

On the number of Renowned+ distillers, it's not a percentage of people but another statistical function - moving the scores at the high end higher will mean fewer people will be getting Renowned. But that's a good thing for the economic game, in my opinion. It's a flaw that people have come to expect that everyone running a shop can provide expert labour.
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klostro

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I dont' see what all the fuss is about. I was doing expert labor before I ever got my incred in distilling, only cause I actually spent time and worked my butt off getting low to high end excellents, and eventually, you get up there, and even after providing expert distill offline, it still took over a month to get the incred, and finally, after doing it enough for all my alts, like it was said above, most of the techniques become muscle memory, and you learn to at least CC12+ almost everything you come across. Same thing with my alchemistry labor, I've never yet got an incred on any of my alts, yet cause I've done alot of excellents, I've got most of them up to renowned, as usually myself as well. It's kinda the same mentality that the youngsters in the workforce has these days, that everything should be handed to them with little effort. Sad, but true.
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tanonev

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On the number of Renowned+ distillers, it's not a percentage of people but another statistical function - moving the scores at the high end higher will mean fewer people will be getting Renowned. But that's a good thing for the economic game, in my opinion. It's a flaw that people have come to expect that everyone running a shop can provide expert labour.


According to Lizthegrey, it's the former. The "other statistical function" was posited by players to explain the lack of Ultimates, but the real answer is much simpler--ties result in bumping all those pirates down a level. The only thing that can reduce the proportion of Renowned+ pirates is rampant tying, and the spreading of scores, if anything, would reduce that effect (not that the scores currently being spread are along that Renowned/Master boundary, as far as I know). Barring ties, 15% of the (active) population is Renowned+.
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[Dec 28, 2007 11:03:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Bleah sorry. Brain's still in caffeination shortage and reverted to last year's thinking.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

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[Dec 28, 2007 11:14:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
selgnij



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Re: Distilling CC^13+ making expert labor more difficult and online tutorial Reply to this Post
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A quick question that may be a bit off topic, how are distilling alts not pushing up the curve, making renowned and incredible harder to get?

If we assume the ultimate list is representative (and if anything, it doesn't have enough alts to be) then on Viridian almost a third of the renowned+ distillers are alts.
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[Dec 31, 2007 6:37:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Re: Distilling CC^13+ making expert labor more difficult and online tutorial Reply to this Post
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Each account comes with three pirates. If all of those pirates do the same kind of labour then two thirds of Renowned+ pirates *should* be alts.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jan 1, 2008 5:06:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Uncleal5

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Re: Distilling CC^13+ making expert labor more difficult and online tutorial Reply to this Post
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I really enjoy distilling but find it incredibly absurd that achieving an Incredible is so difficult especially when compared to every other puzzle. Its seriously distorted and has taken a lot of the fun out of the game for me. I can get a CC 8 and CC 4 with difficulty. I am at the point where I do not expect to see any improvement unless I go buy better hardware-that is sad.
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[Jan 4, 2008 12:27:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
klostro

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Yes this is sad, though it is still possible to get increds on slower machines, it surely takes alot more thought about your moves before you do them.

I just got a new system, and dropped 4 gigs of ram in, and man, it's like I'm holding the distill balls in my hands. Very smooth, but it does suck for the people who left behind.
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[Jan 4, 2008 1:18:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.homelessirc.net    Klostrophobik    Klostrophobik    Would you like to spank me? [Link]  Go to top 
scm621

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It has little to do with the hardware. Admittedly, it can have an effect, but not in the way most people think it does here: as my Renowned-down-from-Ultimate standing can attest to, disconnects have the biggest effect on standing.

As for mouse stuff...I never bother with settings when I use a new mouse, and I've distilled with three different mice within the past month. Also, every single mouse cost me $20. I literally only buy what is usually the cheapest optical mouse available (in case anyone is getting cynical, I've used three mice not because they keep breaking; one broke, but I bought it in 2004 and used it extensively. I just keep travelling). When I'm doing well (i.e. not right now) I'm typically right around #10 on Midnight: much higher than necessary for expert labor. Three booches (three dc's) took me from Ult to Renowned.

As for processor power...again, not too important. Find yourself a lonely distillery where there aren't pets or other people and you really should be fine. If not, then I'd imagine you have enough problems elsewhere in the game that distilling lag shouldn't be on the forefront.

Distilling speed comes from practice, not the hardware you use. Hardware might be the difference between high ult and low ult, but not much more.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by scm621 at Jan 4, 2008 6:50:08 PM]
[Jan 4, 2008 6:42:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
klostro

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as my Renowned-down-from-Ultimate standing can attest to, disconnects have the biggest effect on standing.


I agree, as I was high leg before I got started getting D/Cs and just a few and I was down to master. And yes, I to use the cheapest optical mouse I can find. And my prefered one right now is a $10 one from CDW (HP part #390938-001).

But I completely disagree with you on the hardware differences, as I'm a network systems admin, I have systems come across my desk daily when the other IT techs are flooded, that I help tune up when I'm bored, and on my lunch breaks, I play with all my normal hardware (via KVM) and make sure most all processes and services are off, and even with 512meg ram on a P4 2.8 I can tell a HUGE difference, as the peices don't handle anything remotely like they do on my desktop at home (quad core 2 duo 2.16 4gig ram). They are VERY jumpy and don't really seem to move as smooth as they do on a newer one. I compare this to pulling a frayed rope through a dense field of jagged rocks to pulling a steel cable across an empty parking lot.
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{Klostro and Wangchung} - Galene says, "Too bad we can't just use the Black Ship as a tugboat, haha." Cronus Smiles.
[Jan 5, 2008 12:10:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.homelessirc.net    Klostrophobik    Klostrophobik    Would you like to spank me? [Link]  Go to top 
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