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Cardinalsin9



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Poker! Help Wanted. Reply to this Post
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Greetings all, Pyratwench from Viridian here.

-----

Currently Registered for Test!

1- Eguee
2- Nunny
3- Jjack
4- Neapol_Neap *charname please*
5- Cypherigon
6- rene
7-
8-
9-

I will be running Screenshots for the test. Keeping tabs on all starting hands and what won the pot.

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I want to run a test on PP, essentially I have heard nothing but complaints that it is rigged, and dodgy, for about 2 months.

I personally believe that it is down simply to the fact that YPP players are much looser and as such call with a wider variety of hands. They are also more likely to chase things such as inside straight draws, and others.

What I want is, 3 hours of your time. All you need is some BASIC poker experience. Enough to know what hands are what. This will allow me to run very quickly through a number of hands.

I will be providing enough PoE to run fully through my test. *roughly 20,000 PoE* and at the end of it I should be able to accurately judge wether Pirate Poker is not accurate. People participating will NOT be allowed to keep the PoE, this is purely to test Pirate Poker.

A test date will be decided when I have enough people signed up, I need 9.

Time of testing will be around 6pm server time. To find out the time near you, use /info in game.
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Accord! or No Accord!
http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=82067

Also running poker tournaments!
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Cardinalsin9 at Nov 25, 2007 4:11:39 PM]
[Nov 23, 2007 1:50:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
eguee

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/me volunteers
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Everyone spells my
name incorrectly, it's a
g, and not a q.
You wrote: 
equee

Rightontime on Viridian
[Nov 23, 2007 1:52:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    I luv HWFO [Link]  Go to top 
Aenor

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It doesn't matter what tests you run, you will not change the minds of anyone who thinks that YPP poker is not random enough. It's a noble idea to try, but utterly futile.
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Mat on the Meridian Ocean

Thank you to everyone who loves Blacksmithing!
[Nov 23, 2007 6:21:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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Re: Poker! Help Wanted. Reply to this Post
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It doesn't matter what tests you run, you will not change the minds of anyone who thinks that YPP poker is not random enough. It's a noble idea to try, but utterly futile.


Indulge me for a second, are you seriously suggesting that YPP poker is even remotely similar to poker in real life? I have played a significant amount of poker in real life, as I am sure you have. Think for a moment about the flops. How many times is the flop all one suit? How many times is there a pair on the flop? Compare that to real life poker sometime.

By the way, I enjoy YPP poker, and make a ton of money playing the 2k-20k tables. I agree that this is pointless to test, as the sample size would not be big enough to prove anything. I also agree that the reckless fast paced game style of many players adds to the perception of poker being "rigged". I do not think it is rigged at all, but it is clearly different from real life poker. Why this is I have no idea.
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[Nov 23, 2007 6:40:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nunny_45

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ill sign up for ye test

From what ive seen the chances of cards are totaly .. well wierd on Ypp... seen hands which the chances of happening are WAY WAY WAY near impossible yet they happen and continually.
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Nunny
[Nov 23, 2007 6:48:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aenor

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Indulge me for a second, are you seriously suggesting that YPP poker is even remotely similar to poker in real life? I have played a significant amount of poker in real life, as I am sure you have. Think for a moment about the flops. How many times is the flop all one suit? How many times is there a pair on the flop? Compare that to real life poker sometime.

A flush flop will happen about 1/16 of the time. Are you suggesting that in YPP it happens more frequently than that? And how could a bad randomization function produce such a result?

I've played tons of real-money online poker, and tons of YPP poker, and the only difference is the quality of play.
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Mat on the Meridian Ocean

Thank you to everyone who loves Blacksmithing!
[Nov 23, 2007 6:59:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Loren_S

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With this test we will get around 300-500 hands and 3k-5k starting hands. While this is not a big statistical base we should either see some imbalance, in which case some further investigation can be done or we see a rather even distribution which won't convince any doubter but reassures us belivers and gives some facts to throw around.

Great thing, waiting for the result but too late for me to help out.


For the record:
I am a firm beliver that YPP-Poker is not rigged, neither intentional nor unintentional. The percieved imbalance is caused by,
1) the number and speed of hands (much like other online pokerrooms)
2) the general bad (loose) play (partly caused by the much too low min-buyin)
3) the selective memory of people.
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CoatOSilver, Captain of Forget About It, Retired King of ©©©, Sage
[Nov 23, 2007 7:00:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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Re: Poker! Help Wanted. Reply to this Post
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Indulge me for a second, are you seriously suggesting that YPP poker is even remotely similar to poker in real life? I have played a significant amount of poker in real life, as I am sure you have. Think for a moment about the flops. How many times is the flop all one suit? How many times is there a pair on the flop? Compare that to real life poker sometime.

A flush flop will happen about 1/16 of the time. Are you suggesting that in YPP it happens more frequently than that? And how could a bad randomization function produce such a result?

I've played tons of real-money online poker, and tons of YPP poker, and the only difference is the quality of play.


Yes, I would wager it does happen more often on YPP. Also, I am talking about real life poker, in a casino or a house game, not a different online site. Yes the quality of play is pathetic here, but practically every poker lover I have met agrees that something is not quite right on YPP.
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[Nov 23, 2007 7:01:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
kenjennings

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No, it's not rigged. However, the dealing is very... Ugly. I think that's the best way you can describe Y!PP poker.
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[removed by SOPA]
[Nov 23, 2007 7:29:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
vanway

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I'd bet whatever that is rigged. Once someone told me that after so many complains the developers showed the code of the poker in YPP to show that it wasn't. I went to see the code, and that was a minimum part of it, the big part was hide. And after seeing some of the things I've seen in this poker, I 'm 100% sure it's rigged.

-But who knows?
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GAME OVER

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[Nov 23, 2007 8:01:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aenor

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OK, so let's suppose that the OP actually collects 300-500 hands worth of data. What statistical methods will you use to test the randomness? If you don't define exactly what you're looking for ahead of time, and what level of significance you're trying to achieve, then your results will be meaningless. Since you haven't specified exactly how many hands worth of data you're going to collect, I don't think you've put enough thought into this.
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Mat on the Meridian Ocean

Thank you to everyone who loves Blacksmithing!
[Nov 23, 2007 8:33:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aenor

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Also, for those who say that it is "rigged", please explain exactly what you're asserting? Do flush draws hit on the river more often than random chance would predict? Do you think that pocket pairs show up more frequently than 1 in 17 hands? What exactly is going on, and, more importantly, why would YPP intentionally rig the game in anyone's favor?
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Mat on the Meridian Ocean

Thank you to everyone who loves Blacksmithing!
[Nov 23, 2007 8:37:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roofiyohoho

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I personally believe that it is down simply to the fact that YPP players are much looser and as such call with a wider variety of hands. They are also more likely to chase things such as inside straight draws, and others.
Bingo. The fact that it's not money, only poe also "helps".

As for the test. I did something similar using 4 of my alts at a 200 NL table (yes, I petitioned beforehand explaining what I'm trying to do and got okayed). All that I did was to call the blinds and check to the river with all 4 of them. Some 2 hours later all my alts were at about 200 poe, give of take 4-6 poe, then I got bored. (I forgot the exact results but you get the idea)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Roofiyohoho at Nov 23, 2007 9:11:03 AM]
[Nov 23, 2007 9:10:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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When one says poker is rigged, one is often complaining that one isn't winning as much as one thinks one should.

Faulkston,
shrugging
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[Nov 23, 2007 9:14:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
vardian

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Im in, what tables to play at?


Jjack on all oceans.
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tanonev

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There's a much better (easier, more accurate, more reproducible) way to test whether poker is "rigged." Grab the deck code that OOO uses (it's open source, after all), and simulate poker deals with that. Since you're letting a computer do it, you can easily run it through tens of thousands of hands. Just collect certain statistics you are looking for, e.g., the proportion of flops that are flush. Choose the statistics BEFORE running the tests.

Test 1: Is that output comparable to the output of Y!PP poker? If so, then Vanway's assertion that there is some "extra" code somewhere that "rigs" the deck is false.

Test 2: Modify the source code to put the preshuffled deck in a DIFFERENT order (i.e., reverse it, or order by rank first instead of suit first), rerun your simulation (with a different seed), and compare the results with your first test. There was a claim somewhere that "high cards come up too often" in Y!PP poker. If this really is true, then running the simulation with the preshuffled deck in reverse order should cause LOW cards to come up too often.

Test 3: Modify the source code to use java.security.SecureRandom instead of java.util.Random. Run whatever tests you want against both versions (again, choose the statistics you're looking for BEFORE running the tests). If the PRNG is causing problems, this test will expose it.

Warning: As with any PRNG, the more calls you make to it, the less "random" the output. Simulating 10000 decks may actually provide better results than simulating 10000000000 decks.
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Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian.
Puppetar by Tilinka
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kenjennings

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When one says "rigged", I think of one person being prefered over another. Do you mean something along the lines of"Oh! Hello player I.D. 439285734, you're our lucky dog today!" or do you mean that as someone previously said flushes, full houses, and other upper tier hands appear more often? Personally, I think it's the latter but I wouldn't exactly call that something being rigged. Like I said, rigged tends to imply cheating in one person's favor.
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[Nov 23, 2007 12:47:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
neapol_neap



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i will help out in the test , and i think its rigged , one day i will get perfect hands all day , but the next day i will get sucky hands , like once i got a K and A twice in a row , and there were 2 kings in the first round and 2 aces in the next , i won about 30 or 40k but the next day i though i would try again and make more money , i lost it all
[Nov 23, 2007 6:22:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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If you're getting good hands some of the time, it's hardly rigged.

Faulkston,
shrugging
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[Nov 23, 2007 6:27:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
nunny_45

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7 months of basicaly no good hands or getting rivered , suddenly 1day-week get absalutly great hands and make a ton, then back to 7 odd months of constantly loosing....
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Nunny
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char

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OOO has no reason to rig it. It would take more work to rig it then to make it fair. Plus then they would have to deal with complaints. It would just be idiotic to rig it, they won't get any benefit.
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Zife
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[Nov 23, 2007 6:43:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dennis565



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Take it from a programmer(Not staff but a programmer in general).

The poker is not like a deck where you draw from the top and place used cards at the bottom. That would take too much extra and useless code.

They randomize cards and check on each card they draw if there aren't 4 of those cards in play then they assign in a type(heart, spade etc.) that hasn't been taken when they hand them out and during the flop, river etc.

So no it isn't like real poker as far as my assumption goes.
[Nov 23, 2007 8:00:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cypherigon



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/volunteer Cypherigon

If there are enough slots. =] Where will it be?
[Nov 23, 2007 8:25:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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dennis565 wrote: 
The poker is not like a deck where you draw from the top and place used cards at the bottom. That would take too much extra and useless code.

Really?
http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=1058849#1058849
Looks like a standard Java collection of objects.

dennis565 wrote: 
They randomize cards and check on each card they draw if there aren't 4 of those cards in play then they assign in a type(heart, spade etc.) that hasn't been taken when they hand them out and during the flop, river etc.

That sounds like more code than having 52 card objects.

Faulkston,
shrugging
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[Nov 23, 2007 8:33:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
dennis565



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dennis565 wrote: 
The poker is not like a deck where you draw from the top and place used cards at the bottom. That would take too much extra and useless code.

Really?
http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=1058849#1058849
Looks like a standard Java collection of objects.

dennis565 wrote: 
They randomize cards and check on each card they draw if there aren't 4 of those cards in play then they assign in a type(heart, spade etc.) that hasn't been taken when they hand them out and during the flop, river etc.

That sounds like more code than having 52 card objects.

Faulkston,
shrugging


You're saying basically what I was saying just with objects. Objects do make a lot more sense. Next time I need to think before posting or sleep more.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by dennis565 at Nov 23, 2007 9:39:24 PM]
[Nov 23, 2007 9:32:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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Well it definitely would be more code to write if there wasn't a handy Java library available.

Faulkston,
shrugging
----------------------------------------
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[Nov 23, 2007 9:40:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Moralistic

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Putting in my two cents, if it is 'rigged' in any way, it isn't in long-term distribution of numbers.

I just ran through my chat files - I have roughly 2200 of each card coming up. The minimum sits at 2128, the maximum at 2273.

If it is fixed, it isn't in that way.
[Nov 24, 2007 2:25:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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Early in the thread I stated that YPP poker is very different from real life casino or house game poker. I do NOT think it is rigged in any way, but after playing a large amount of hands here, it simply behaves differently. The quality of play certainly reveals this difference, as some hands that should not go to the river do. Also, this is not coming from someone who loses at YPP poker, in fact I made roughly 1 million profit in the last month, on the 2k-20k tables. It is not rigged, although certainly it does feel like it is at times. I notice incredible streaks of luck, 1 or 2 outs hitting on the river often, and multiple premium pockets facing off many times.

Due to the nature of fast and loose online play, we are able to observe these situations much more often. Also, the human brain chooses to remember the unlikely events more often than the usual events. Still though, many players I know have hours of experience in both types of poker, and they all agree that there is something "off" about YPP. I don't think it is rigged, and I don't understand programming, so I have no idea what could make this happen.
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[Nov 24, 2007 4:33:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nunny_45

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The game isnt Rigged to Award certain players even though it sometimes seems to... ALOT. As many have posted before the system has something wrong with it that causes Unlikely hands to occur more oftern then they should by the theory of chance.
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Nunny
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Cardinalsin9



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Indulge me for a second, are you seriously suggesting that YPP poker is even remotely similar to poker in real life? I have played a significant amount of poker in real life, as I am sure you have. Think for a moment about the flops. How many times is the flop all one suit? How many times is there a pair on the flop? Compare that to real life poker sometime.

A flush flop will happen about 1/16 of the time. Are you suggesting that in YPP it happens more frequently than that? And how could a bad randomization function produce such a result?

I've played tons of real-money online poker, and tons of YPP poker, and the only difference is the quality of play.


Aye,

That is why I am running this test. It is true that initially the test will have some variance. But the point is this.

If PP is so bad, it should only take a small sample to show it's massive variance over standard odds/ratios.
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-----
Accord! or No Accord!
http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=82067

Also running poker tournaments!
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[Nov 24, 2007 8:02:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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