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nicuss



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Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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There's been a bit of talking on this previously, but I think the issue is seriuos enough to bring it up and talk some more. The heart of the problem is the difference between the costs of building (and upgrading) a shop vs. a stall, given that stalls have full shop functionality in most cases and taxes are about the same.

Facts: to open a stall it costs precisely 0 poe and 0 goods. You need some materials but they just get placed in the stall and you can use or sell them. You need some poe but that's just your regular weekly tax. On the other hand, to build a shop you need on average 200 wood, 5000 stone, 300 iron, 200 cloth, between 1000-2000 hours of labor, and I don't know how much poe. Upgrading it costs you another 100-200k poe plus materials.

One upgraded shop has the same throughput (optimal labor) as 3 deluxe stalls for all types I've checked.

Weekly tax for upgraded shops on Turtle is:
Shipyard - 19800
Ironmonger - 13200
Tailor - 13200
Weavery - 8600
(no data on distillery)

Weekly tax for deluxe Turtle stalls, multiplied by 3, is:
Shipyard - 23700
Ironmonger - 19800
Tailor - 19800
Weavery - 11100

So keeping 3 deluxe stalls will have you pay between 4k-6.5k poe a week more than keeping a fine shop. For all but shipyards the stalls are able to offer 100% of a shop's services. Thus, the extra 4-6k weekly stall tax has to offset either some 1M+ poe investment for those who bought shops, or the boatloads of materials and thousands of labor hours (who need to be paid) for those who build new ones. Hardly a fair trade at all.

Several problems also arise from this situation:
* every small crew or even pirate can open a free stall, hire themselves, and make their own products; thus shops are almost unneeded (most crews can live without galleons and frigates).
* becasue the above is already happening it's practically impossible for a dedicated crew that wants to run a stall professionally and profitably to get any employees (stall spam)
* since it costs nothing to open a stall it is possible for griefers or "do-good"ers to open a large number of stalls and run them at 0 profit (high wages, high buy prices, sell=buy). All they need to do is make sure they clock a tiny profit to pay their weekly tax. Thus shops are limited to making a 4k-6k/week profit (their tax break vs stalls).

The last point is actually beginning to happen, I think. Checking Turtle shipyard stalls you can get a sloop for around 15.5k. Now if you browse all stalls and pick highest the hiring rate (I won't advertise it), you can do the math setting 0 profit all around you'll get a 15.5k sell price. True that the 15.5k stall doesn't hire at max rate, but if you have a shop/stall on Turtle you're constrained from both sides towards 0 profit already.


Proposed solutions:

1. [weak solution] Increase stall taxes. Fine, it'll work to some extent, but it won't cut stall spam much and griefers can still limit shop profits to the weekly tax difference between shops/stalls.

2. [much better] Set a significant cost for opening a new stall, including poe and materials, proportional to bulding a shop of the same type. This will filter out both the griefers and the people who never meant to dedicate to it. For existing stalls set a deadline by which the materials need to be gathered in order to keep the stall. For training purposes make a "training" stall that costs nothing to open, has 1 optimal employees and an extremely limited production abylity.

It's really not that hard to gather the poe & materials needed for 1/3 of a shop if your crew really wants to do it.

3. [alternate] Set a smaller poe-only stall-opening fee (a few weekly taxes), but limit more dramatically stall abilities. I think offering about half the of full-shop products would be a good tradeoff. For instance:

Shipyard stall - sloops & cutters only; maybe merch brigs, but definitely not war brigs. Shipshops can't live on galleons&frigates alone.
Apoth stall - when you make potions give them to shops only
Ironmonger/Weavery/Tailor/Distillery stall - no exper labor products

I think either #2 or #3 would work very well. It'd allow shop-owners to run a reasonably profitable bussiness and allow small crews run a small bussiness while still giving them something to look forward to if they got sufficiently big and strong (full-shops).
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by nicuss at May 12, 2004 1:39:19 PM]
[May 12, 2004 1:39:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
davidsinger



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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What's wrong with running a stall at zero to no profits? I think that shop owners have enough POE sitting around from our previous time of Pax Romana. Prices on everything are too high and those willing to cut profits are doing a huge service to the working man. My weavery stall sells at cost except on the hemp itself. I make maybe 20 poe on each piece of cloth. I'm not trying to make it rich. I'm trying to have fun and maybe convince the shop owners that a little capitalism is good.

EDIT: On a less ranty note: If we end up too tightly bound to no profits, shops will go under. The system can fix itself. It's not like some rich individuals are funding ventures that go below cost, just to stick it to the man. That would be a fun idea, though.
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[May 12, 2004 1:59:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Rappak

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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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I don't think that there's a problem. Don't have to pay for the extra rent that the stalls need to cover. So in essense, shops can undercut Stalls and still make some profit. Granted it isn't enough to cover the buying cost, but it is enough to force others out of business.
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Rappak, memmer of the oceans.

Rappak- Ex-king of Something Powerful (Cobalt)/ex-Lord of Indestructible Fury, a caged free-bird forever.
Rappak- Officer in Easily Distracted (Midnight)/Mem helper in CT/Where am I?
[May 12, 2004 2:07:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Telastyn



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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Having talked with a few of the Turtle shipyard stall owners in passing: the 15k sloop shops recoup profits from their own weaveries on the island. Not that it changes much, but still...

And with all due respect to me flagmate Nicuss, the stallowner and small crew captain in me would fight tooth and nail against option #3. But yar, the initial build costs vs the rent savings seems a bit uneven. An initial stall poe/good sink seems reasonable [though I would not consider the million poe investment; just the labour and goods to build a shop]
[May 12, 2004 2:32:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TheT

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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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making a stall cost a third of a fine shoppe worth in materials and POE would make it cost at least 75k... the point of stalls was to put shoppe ownership into the hands of the average pirate, i don't know to many "average pirates" who can cough up 75k just to be allowed to OPEN a stall, and then have poe left over to stock it, and then have a bit more just in case!

also, last time i bought a sloop it cost me between 11k and 12k, now seeing as raw goods can still be acquired for the same amount, you should still be able to produce a sloop for 11 to 12k. at a profit. that's undercutting the -at cost- stall owner by aprox. 4k, so i fail to see the problem here. Even for all other goods, the shoppes still make more profit than the stalls, as ye said yourself, also the shoppes shouldn't really have a labor problem, seeing as they are, nearly all, owned by moderately large to bloody big flags.

It seems to me that you've found your profit margin decreasing, and aren't happy about it...

Previous to Cnossos, the last shoppe auctions were months prior, and with the exception of the apothcaries and such, they would have had enough time to recoup the greater part of thier costs by the time bazaars came out, and as for the Cnossos owners, they went into it with their eyes open, knowing they were buying trophies not POE making machines. As with all things, the dominance of the shoppe monopolies has ended.
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Sokar
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[May 12, 2004 2:37:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sarterixa



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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I don't think 50-75k would be an unreasonable price to open a stall. It would stop people from opening a stall without planning as well as providing motivation to recoup that loss by selling for a reasonable profit.

50k really isn't that much money; heck, I had that much in azure in less than a month of playing, even after paying for 2 cleavers, 4 scimitars and a purple outfit.
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Sart
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[May 12, 2004 3:18:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LaughingCow

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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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The disadvantages of having three deluxe stalls instead of an upgraded shoppe that I can think of right off the top of my head:

Only, at most, three people run the outfit instead of six.
Each of those three can only run one third of the outfit.
You have to track three queues, three coffers, three buy/sell price charts.
You will occupy all three job slots for people that want to help you.
You still don't have a spot on the map.
You can't sell the business when you're tired of it.

I'm sure there are many more.
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Jhovall
Carpenter Extraordinaire, Blacksmith Extraordinairer
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nicuss



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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TheT wrote: 
making a stall cost a third of a fine shoppe worth in materials and POE would make it cost at least 75k... the point of stalls was to put shoppe ownership into the hands of the average pirate, i don't know to many "average pirates" who can cough up 75k just to be allowed to OPEN a stall, and then have poe left over to stock it, and then have a bit more just in case!


No, the point of stalls was to put shopkeeping in the hands of the average crew, and 75k is not hard for most crews (that's what a war brig runs for). Right now each pirate can have 6 stalls if we wants and that's just wrong.

TheT wrote: 
also, last time i bought a sloop it cost me between 11k and 12k, now seeing as raw goods can still be acquired for the same amount, you should still be able to produce a sloop for 11 to 12k. at a profit.

Wrong. The 11k sloops were done using labor paid with 2-3 poe/hour. Now stalls offer 20-30 poe/hr and barely get any workers at all. You do the rest of the math (same labor rates apply to making the sail cloth so it's a double whammy).

TheT wrote: 
As with all things, the dominance of the shoppe monopolies has ended.

There's no such thing as a "shoppe monopoly". Shops were split between half a dozen flags and numerous other shops were handed as naming contest prizes, etc. There was always stiff competition actually (yes, I know, I managed them for months). The only thing that kept prices high was that all shopowners were aware of their huge investment and had a good reason to run their shops profitably. Comodity and labor shortages also drove prices up. The problem with stalls is that they have ZERO initial investment and they can afford to run on ZERO profit just to grief your illusion of "shoppe monopolies". And the tax break that shoppes get vs stalls is not even funny, I can make that much from an hour or two of pillaging. You can't expect 5 people to run their shop for a week and earn together as much as one would get in a pillage evening.


Re: LaughingCow I don't think any of those stall disadvantages has the slightest significance compared with the costs of buying or building a shop. Nor do they all together.
[May 12, 2004 3:28:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LaughingCow

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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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nicuss wrote: 
You can't expect 5 people to run their shop for a week and earn together as much as one would get in a pillage evening.

If they enjoy shoppekeeping, I most certainly can. If they don't enjoy shoppekeeping, then they're playing the wrong part of the game.

nicuss wrote: 
Re: LaughingCow I don't think any of those stall disadvantages has the slightest significance compared with the costs of buying or building a shop. Nor do they all together.

Have you tried running three stalls yet? I'm betting it's a lot harder than it's being made to seem here.
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Jhovall
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[May 12, 2004 3:37:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.yellow5.com/pokey [Link]  Go to top 
nicuss



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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LaughingCow wrote: 
Have you tried running three stalls yet? I'm betting it's a lot harder than it's being made to seem here.


No, but I've managed half a dozen shops no problem. Got a few stalls now as well, although not all of the same kind and some are just resale outlets.
[May 12, 2004 3:54:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CrazyMorg



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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hmmmm, i do agree that there are too many stalls, and perhaps an amount to open is necessary, but i believe the suggested amount is FAR too high, the stalls were not intended for the elite remember

sorry but im also forced to disagree about more limitations to stalls....i believe the current limitations are enough. Also, you suggest not allowing shipwrights stalls to make war brigs, my problem with this is that i remember a time recently when you couldnt find a shipwright making them....and this would allow shops to monopolize a product that every crew can legitimately make use of, unlike the frig class vessels

but we'll see, maybe the current "trend" is to run a bazaar and once this initial period passes, perhaps it will be left to a more select group
[May 12, 2004 5:32:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jothmar



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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I personally think things are fine the way they are, some kind of inicial investment that goes to the void would be fine with me but I'd think 10k or so would be fine. And these were obviously meant for the average pirate and not the average crew as... there can't be managers...
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Kelyon Hawk of Fidelis Bellum
[May 12, 2004 11:23:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nicuss



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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Jothmar wrote: 
And these were obviously meant for the average pirate and not the average crew as... there can't be managers...


You're probably right actually... but I do think it was a mistake. Of course they could also force ships to be cheap enough so every pirate can afford a frigate after a pillage run. Most people would be happy, obviously. Yet it wouldn't be an economically sound decision.

And to all of you who say that it's all right the way it is... Yes, it's all right now, shops are stilll running fine. But I believe things may be much different in a couple monthe if left this way, and also there is no incentive at all for people colonizing new islands to build shops. Why would you spend galleons of materials and millions of poe to pay for labor when you can just build a bazaar and open as many free stalls as you feel like? Just to have managers? Totally not worth it.
[May 12, 2004 11:51:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Telastyn



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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Personally, I don't see anyone building shops beyond shipyards and inns a few months down the line. But then again, a few months down the line, I see many people using the land for luxurious mansions instead.
[May 13, 2004 12:01:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ScurvyBee



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but...

I have two stalls. One ironmonger stall on Turtle, and it's damn hard to turn a profit on it. I recently had to downgrade it in size because I couldn't get the labor to keep it profitable, even paying 30 for labor. I don't run my stall to grief anyone else, I run it in the hope that I'll make some poe.

I also have a tailor stall on Cnossos. I was lucky with that stall - I got enough labor shortly after opening to keep it running at full tilt and quite profitably. Again, I'm not running it to "stick it to" established full shoppes, I'm running it to make money. I think it's probably fair to say that the vast majority of other stall owners are trying to do the same.

I'm also trying to help run a third stall, a tailor on Winter. It's damn hard, for a couple of reasons. First, the clothing market there is relatively weak, so turning a profit even with enough labor and low-cost materials is hard to do. Second, because stalls can't have managers, I can't see any of the interfaces. If the stall is booched in any way, I have to hope the person running it logs on soon to fix it, because I can't.

So what would happen if it cost a proportional amount of materials, labor, and poe to open a stall? I think it's very likely that another huge portion of the populace would be excluded from playing the shop-keeping puzzle, and then we're back to square one. A lot of people I know rent stalls just to play with shopkeeping, and that isn't a bad thing. Sure, they may booch up your profit in the short term, but make no mistake, many will fail. The advantage a full shoppe has is that it can weather out these periods of a glutted market. I'm a manager at a full-sized weavery, too, and I'm pretty sure I'm right on this point.

I'll be frank. My ironmonger stall will probably go under. *shrug* I'm sad that that might be the case, but hey, that's the market at work. Many others will also fail, and that's when you'll see profit margins starting to increase again. They'll fail because people will get tired of running their own supplies, they don't understand the market, the profits aren't enough for the effort involved, they don't have any help, etc.

Now, I could very well be off-base. If, in a few weeks, there are still umpteen stalls on every island undercutting full shoppe's profits so badly that you can't make a profit, then it might be time to suggest/implement a change in stall-costs, etc. But let's wait and see how many of them fail, first.
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Iole, Retired Flirt of the Cult of the Red Mantis
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ultima7



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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How about when you open a stall or upgrade you pay double rent plus a small amount of wood/iron/cloth? for building.

The devs doubleed taxes by mistake when they released it, but it was probably a good idea.

The requirement for wood/iron/cloth would make it so a potential stall owner would have to do some planning before opening the stall. I don't think stone should be used as these are not permanent buildings.
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Argyle
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skington

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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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nicuss wrote: 
there is no incentive at all for people colonizing new islands to build shops.


Good: a predictive statement :-). All we have to do, to work out whether shoppes are still worth having, is see whether the big flags stop at bazaars on their shiny new islands.
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Leaddolphin, Captain of Serve No Porpoise, Valiant Prince on Cobalt. I want your Plaices!
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Meteus



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Hmm - a shop cost somewhere between 50k and 100k to build (roughly). In return, you get 4-6.5k off on your rent. Forever. So your investment pays off after 2-4 months, and then you get free money for the rest of your life. Sounds like a good deal to me. If there are any flags who decide not to build shops on their islands, let me know - I'm sure I can scrape together the cost of building a shop.

Now, you might point out that some people paid around a million poe for their shops (which would take about 5 years to pay off). However, people who bought their shop at those costs also bought the right to operate in a near monopoly market for a month or more. To give you an idea of how profitable this is, in this ocean, even with bazaars on some islands, prices are still so high on islands without bazaars that I could triple the profits I'm making at my Spring Distillery Stall if I could sell rum at the prices it's going for at Epsilon (which has no Bazaar). Frankly, if you bid on a shop, I think you've already gotten what you paid for. I would have more sympathy if we hadn't seen such rapidly rising prices in the month before the release of Bazaars.

Metheus
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Metheus

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[May 13, 2004 12:35:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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Ah, Nicuss, I should have realized it was hopeless. People still have the same notions about shops as ever; reality doesn't enter into it. Nearly 100 shops is a monopoly (for who?). Shop owners were making larger and larger profits as prices went up (when it was really traders (except shipyards, which saw steady profits) - I should know, as I collect all shop profits, and they were steadily decreasing prior to the bazaar update, due to the increasing scarcity of raw materials driving the prices shops had to pay to traders up hugely). "Big flags" will get islands (when actually I see a bunch of "small" flags, backed by the same few huge flags, taking over almost every island in the game). Nicuss is upset about losing profits (when in fact at the moment he has more stalls than shop managerships, and is one of the richest SELF-MADE pirates (if not the richest) in the game anyway, from personal trading, NOT shopkeeping or collecting money from subordinates).

Step outside, take a quick look at what's really going on, and try not to post informed only by yer prejudices.

As for the original question, I haven't tried stalls enough yet to tell; they seem to be serving their purpose quite well, but I don't know if the prices are reasonable or not. My understanding from pre-stall posts was that they would have significantly higher rent than shops, to make shops continue to be economically viable, and that does not seem to be the case, from Nicuss' figures. I do wonder why that was changed.
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AkMedic

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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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muffy wrote: 
Ah, Nicuss, I should have realized it was hopeless. People still have the same notions about shops as ever; reality doesn't enter into it. Nearly 100 shops is a monopoly (for who?). Shop owners were making larger and larger profits as prices went up (when it was really traders (except shipyards, which saw steady profits) - I should know, as I collect all shop profits, and they were steadily decreasing prior to the bazaar update, due to the increasing scarcity of raw materials driving the prices shops had to pay to traders up hugely). "Big flags" will get islands (when actually I see a bunch of "small" flags, backed by the same few huge flags, taking over almost every island in the game). Nicuss is upset about losing profits (when in fact at the moment he has more stalls than shop managerships, and is one of the richest SELF-MADE pirates (if not the richest) in the game anyway, from personal trading, NOT shopkeeping or collecting money from subordinates).

Step outside, take a quick look at what's really going on, and try not to post informed only by yer prejudices.

As for the original question, I haven't tried stalls enough yet to tell; they seem to be serving their purpose quite well, but I don't know if the prices are reasonable or not. My understanding from pre-stall posts was that they would have significantly higher rent than shops, to make shops continue to be economically viable, and that does not seem to be the case, from Nicuss' figures. I do wonder why that was changed.


I agree. I don't see who saw these 'massive' profits which were used to justify stalls (and no, please don't read that as an anti stall statement, I think they are great). Further, the real issue now (outside of goods, which seems to have been slightly sloved by increase island output) is labor. With 100 stalls now eroding the labor pool, most of our flag owned shoppes are seeing a large labor shortage, so much that the shoppes are now at around 1/4 of their desired output. In our case, building an island didn't help: the labor costs are staggering. Shuch is the price for said island, and we would gladly trade labor for the honor of owning Spring. Yet the labor pool in our shoppes was mostly flag labor, and continues to be, thus making it quite hard to balance both. Back to the point, we have raised our hire rates significantly, to no effect. Our weavery, for the first time since it's inception, now is in danger of falling bellow the minimum amount of 'daily labor/optimum'. The true issue now is one of labor, and I belive as more stalls open, this will continue to be a greater concern. Shoppes were designed to pull labor from a large pool. Now, they are slowly starving as more and more of the population moves to shoppes. Further, due to competition shoppe profit due to outside the flag sales is down 75%. While some may say the 'pax romana' of shoppes allowed us all to swim in poe, I say the opposite is true. I have to complety agree with Rifkind, the concept of shoppes making large sums was false: it was traders whom became horribly wealthy. The reality is, the labor issue MUST be addressed somehow. Otherwise, should the trend continue, shoppes will begin to slowly close, as simply, there is not enough labor now to meet demands of production. Throw in a spike in the number of shoppes in the game due to colonisation, and we have a serious problem.
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Captain of the greatest crew in the seas.
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perringer



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Muffy wrote: 
My understanding from pre-stall posts was that they would have significantly higher rent than shops, to make shops continue to be economically viable, and that does not seem to be the case


It's all about the labor restrictions. It boils down to production/hour vs. sales/hour, and how that works out into cash flow to meet your taxes.

For example, IM-SIC's taxes at Red Rum are about 3000/week, and we can do 20 labor hours/hour, which translates to being able to make 800 fine rum/day if we use all the hours, or about 5600/week

A small stall can only make 840 fine rum/week (850 taxes)

A medium stall can only make 1680 fine rum/week (1400 taxes)

A deluxe stall can only make 2520 fine rum/week (1700 taxes)

Run a quick proportion of taxes to production

Shop Distillery: 3000/5600 = .54 poe in taxes/unit of rum
Deluxe Stall: 1700/2520 = .68
Medium Stall: 1400/1680 = .83
Small Stall: 850/840 = 1.02

Stalls do cost more; but not prohibitively so. In the case of rum, I expect a glut of the stuff will force most stalls to shut down in the next month or so, as the production capacity of the shops allow them to undercut any price any stall sets that has a profit.

If cannonballs and cloth and what have you become glutted, the shops have a definite advantage there as well.

But if prices are high, the stalls are a great counterbalance to force supply up and prices down; and they're doing a great job at it.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by perringer at May 13, 2004 2:50:54 AM]
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atteSmythe

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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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nicuss wrote: 
So keeping 3 deluxe stalls will have you pay between 4k-6.5k poe a week more than keeping a fine shop. For all but shipyards the stalls are able to offer 100% of a shop's services. Thus, the extra 4-6k weekly stall tax has to offset either some 1M+ poe investment for those who bought shops, or the boatloads of materials and thousands of labor hours (who need to be paid) for those who build new ones. Hardly a fair trade at all.

A somewhat minor niggle...

The devs never expected/intended/wanted shops to be selling for 1M+ poe. The players set that price, not the devs. It's unreasonable to expect that bazaar stalls should be priced to fit player whims instead of game design goals.

Also, since these shops were sold in the days before bazaars existed, you can reasonably view the bulk of the inflated price as a surcharge for being able to use a feature that didn't exist for the vast majority of the game's population at the time.

atteSmythe,
who's happy with stalls, from what he's heard
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basam



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If the # of stalls per island stays high, I would support the concept of the starting cost of stalls increasing based on the number of stalls per island, AND the number of stalls that pirate has already opened. So if a pirate has a lot of stalls, and is trying to open a stall on an island with a lot of stalls, the starting cost would be very high, while a pirate opening his first stall, and/or locating on an island with few stalls, would have a low starting price.

Nonetheless, stalls are hard to run profitably. I opened an apothecary stall (wanted a weavery, but only own a sloop, and 90 hemp doesn't fit on a sloop) a couple days ago, and haven't been able to produce my first order of dye yet due to labor.

So far, the most profitable thing I've been able to do is buy all the raw resources at higher prices than anyone else, and selling them to other suckers^H^H^H^H^H^Hinvestors who want to open their own stalls.

Also, don't underestimate a shop's having map advertising, especially for being able to get labor.

I think it's still too early to gauge economic balance from the addition of stalls, as well as the increase in raw materials available. I do agree that there are an awful lot of stalls right now. I'm not sure whether that's a steady-state thing or whether it's just people wanting to try out the new feature.
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muffy



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Oh, to clarify - yes, shops have always been profitable (except possibly distilleries), not denying that! However, for the most part, traders have made as good or better profits - for example, we pay 10,000 per unit of (foraged) Lorandite, and we charge 12,000 per unit when making it into swords. So, the trader profit on that Lorandite is 10,000 per unit. The shop profit is 2,000 per unit (plus labor profits, but those are usually minor, perhaps 100).

2,000 is nothing to sneeze at, surely, but the 10,000 is where the real money is.

Even in staples, we've charged about the same profit on raw materials that we pay traders (e.g. pay 11 for hemp bought at 7, charge 15 for it).

Rum and shot are exceptions - rum makes tiny profits, shot makes large ones, even after paying the traders. I think this is related to production capacity more than anything, but I'm no economist.
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Ivan256



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nicuss wrote: 
No, but I've managed half a dozen shops no problem. Got a few stalls now as well, although not all of the same kind and some are just resale outlets.


This brings up a good point. Shops and stalls are now limited from setting buy prices on things they don't need to run their business.... or so they said... in order to stop the types of reselling that was going on.

In reality though, shops and stalls can set buy prices on the finished goods they make, even though the finished goods are not reqired to produce their products. If reselling finished goods is considered "bad" enough that we're not allowed to do it for some things, why isn't it disallowed for everything?

This also allows an exploit in the anti-reselling changes. Can't set a buy and resell shot in your distillery, or tan cloth in your monger anymore? Just open a stall and resell from there. The types of people that were being obnoxious and making reselling a problem before, are the same types of people who would go through the trouble to do it via resale stalls. If resale is going to be allowed, please don't make it so that it's only an advantage for people with a lot of time on their hands.
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viracocha



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perringer wrote: 
It's all about the labor restrictions. It boils down to production/hour vs. sales/hour, and how that works out into cash flow to meet your taxes.


You're assuming that you can sell all of your production. This is not always true, so it skews the tax/profit relation.
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Telastyn



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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muffy wrote: 
Oh, to clarify - yes, shops have always been profitable (except possibly distilleries), not denying that! However, for the most part, traders have made as good or better profits - for example, we pay 10,000 per unit of (foraged) Lorandite, and we charge 12,000 per unit when making it into swords. So, the trader profit on that Lorandite is 10,000 per unit. The shop profit is 2,000 per unit (plus labor profits, but those are usually minor, perhaps 100).



2,000 is nothing to sneeze at, surely, but the 10,000 is where the real money is.



Even in staples, we've charged about the same profit on raw materials that we pay traders (e.g. pay 11 for hemp bought at 7, charge 15 for it)







Well ideally, in a few months traders won't be able to get that lorandite for 0 anymore. The market will sell for 8k [for example], meaning the traders "only" make 2k, and the shop "only" makes 2k. Just like the staples which are currently sold.



And the shops don't risk the goods in transit.
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KoshMom

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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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3 comments

Stalls as crew endeavors

Stalls may have initially been conceived as a crew endeavor, but
because only one person can work them, they are de facto a private pirate only endeavor. Implement stall managers, and they can become a crew thing.


Shops aren't worth it discusion


regarding the discussion on sad people realizing that they paid too much for a shop: well, you bid on it, you paid for it. There was a lot of discussion around the fact that shops were way overpriced; but you "won" the bid, and as it turns out the "winner" of the bid may very well have made a Losing bid. That's the economy, and you need to realize that nothing is a sure thing.

Opening stall prices

For all stalls there are costs involved beyond the opening fees. Even in distilleries, you will need to have extra poe in the coffers at the start to make your first order of rum, unless you can get someone else to buy that first order from you (which is unlikely).

How about having a set minimum poe in the coffers being another requirement of having a stall? So, first week's rent is X poe. But I will need first week's rent PLUS poe to open the stall. The PLUS money will be put in your coffers as initial cash for the stall to use, and the stall owner will have it at their discretion (much like the initial goods are at their discretion)

So, for an example, if you are opening a distillery, first week rent is 2000 poe. you also need wood, iron and sugarcane. And another 500 poe.
So, for 2500 poe you get a stall with wood, iron, sugarcane, and 500 poe in the coffers.


This necessary extra poe becomes more important when you have other types of stalls. apocatharies need poe to buy their dyestuffs. Shipyards need poe to buy supplies for the 2nd ship they produce. Weaveries need dyes and rocks to produce different colors, or buy more sugarcane or cowslip or whatever. Etc.

When I opened my weavery stall on Epsilon, the rent was miniscule to what I determined were important things I needed. Thus I opened the stall and instantly put in 30,000 poe and realized I needed even more. By the end of the first week I had sunk almost 60,000 poe and didn't really have much of a return on investment at all.

But, the distillery needs less, as there is less needed there.

So, the extra is based upon what type of stall it is. Here's a quick proposed "extra" that you will need as "initial operating capital"

Stall type ---- Init. Operating capital

Distillery --- 500 poe
apocathary --- 2000 poe
weavery --- 10,000 poe
monger --- 10,000 poe
shipwright --- 30,000 poe
Tailor --- 5,000 poe

Is that all of them? I think so...?

[edit: I'm sorry, but I can't figure out how to make the columns line up]
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Jothmar



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Ivan256 wrote: 
The types of people that were being obnoxious and making reselling a problem before, are the same types of people who would go through the trouble to do it via resale stalls. If resale is going to be allowed, please don't make it so that it's only an advantage for people with a lot of time on their hands.


Except that they have to pay taxes twice now making it much less profitable. I don't see this as a problem at all... course I didn't really mind it that much before.

The major problem right now is labor. As was stated earlier, -if- you can fully supply your enterprize with labor you're much better off in a shop. If you can't... you want the stall type that best fits the labor you do have to be profitable. Right now with islands being colonized and stalls coming out its little wonder then labor is so short. If the labor problem can be fixed then shops will easily be able to out perform stalls.
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perringer



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Re: Stall vs Shop Costs - are they fair? Reply to this Post
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You're assuming that you can sell all of your production. This is not always true, so it skews the tax/profit relation.


You can sell all of your production if your pricing is right; but yes, if you don't then your taxes are higher per produced unit. However, to make a point of camparison between the shops and the stalls, this is the the most accurate way I can think of to do it.
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