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garf



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duty puzzle feedback Reply to this Post
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while i respect the design decision not to have experience numbers in the game, scoring numbers for the individual puzzles would help.

currently, i feel totally unable to decide how good i'm doing. sure, the indicator sometimes gives a rough idea, but nearly all the time the ranking doesnt fit with what i saw during puzzling. i.e. first league i see mostly yellow in the puzzle, but end up with a good or fine, next league the indicator is mostly red or blue and i get an excellent.

this makes it close to impossible to find out how good i did, and specifically which approaches are better than others. e.g. in bilge pumping, how many steps is it worth to invest in setting up a 5, a 3x3 or the bigger combos? i have no way to tell.

this might also be a long-term motivation issue. the granularity of the current rankings seems pretty low - the performance surely varies enough to allow for much finer grades to give us a better idea how well we performed.
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- Randal

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[Jun 27, 2003 4:36:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
jollyroger23



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I dont think they want to give away what is good in puzzles. Half the fun is trying different things and figuring out what works for you. The league point sums up how you did just fine in my opinion.


But i would like to add that some puzzles are getting hard to do good in, I was told my Nemo its because its ranked by how good you do in comparison to others. I just think that it could get out of hand, enough good people could ruin it for someone with little talent.
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-Tob
[Jun 27, 2003 5:12:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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jollyroger23 wrote: 
I just think that it could get out of hand, enough good people could ruin it for someone with little talent.


The rating distributions haven't changed in a long time. This isn't because we stopped them, it's because the average player score doesn't move. The only possible change would be the very gradual shift up in carpentry.

-Nemo
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[Jun 27, 2003 5:41:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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just to clarify - its not long-term inconsistency with ratings that irritates me, but short term. from one league to another when i feel (and am confirmed by the look of the indicator in the puzzle) i have improved my rating gets worse or vice-versa.

if there is no chance to improving feedback on how well you do (why keep track of it if you dont get to know it, anyway?), could we at least know whats a better indicator - the rankings (i.e. ranking got worse - i played worse) or behaviour of in-puzzle-indicator during the league (i.e. more up to yellow for most of the time - i played better)?
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jun 27, 2003 6:41:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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The in-puzzle indicator only shows how well you're doing at that time. The end-of-league duty report shows how well you did overall. One isn't "better" than the other. They show different things.
You can be getting a gold indicator when the duty report comes up and still do poorly because the whole rest of the league you didn't do as well.
The same thing can happen in reverse. Doe exceptionally most of the way, but peter off at the end and your feedback indicator will be dim. When the duty report comes, however, it will reflect the fine job you did most of the time.

-Nemo
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[Jun 27, 2003 8:47:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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yes, i think i understood this already. but i try to watch my indicator over the whole league, not just before the end, and i still feel there's no direct relation to the ranking. of course, that might be just me, and if others think that it works for them, then it's probably just me being too dumb for this game. ;)
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jun 27, 2003 9:54:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Meghaford



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I have ceased to use the indicator icons because I don't find them useful. Instead I concentrate on the size of the text which tells me how much a move was "worth" and try to make better moves faster using as few moves as possible. Give it a try.
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--Ursela, Captain of the Dastards
... and a few others ...
[Jun 28, 2003 6:13:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.rjmlb.com [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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im sorry to keep this running while apparently i'm the only one having problems with this, but it only gets worse the more i play bilging.

i simply cannot tell if im doing bad or good while playing. i feel i do the same thing with same success during two different leagues and get results over the full range from poor to incredible, literally.

and the indicator during the puzzle does not help anything at all, either. just 15 minutes ago i went on a navy ship, started bilging, did one click that cleared just 3 blocks with a "bonus"-size combo following, and the indicator goes to maximum (i assume yellow with water steaming is maximum). then next league, i start off with a 3x4 by a single click, and the indicator goes to the cyan state. what gives?

and frankly, without having any measure that i can at least partially understand, the motivation to play is severly lacking.

(i have the same feeling with sailing, btw. only carpentry ratings usually relate to how well i feel i performed)
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- Randal

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[Jul 1, 2003 12:17:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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ok, now i'm sure the indicator *must* be bugged. i've had this happen again. started bilging, one click cleared 3 pieces and another 3 in a combo following, pump goes to maximum. next click 2 seconds later makes a 3x4 go off and pump goes down to normal yellow. that cant be right, can it?
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 1, 2003 1:45:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Meghaford



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Garf, I DO agree with you that they don't help... it's simply a battle I've ceased to fight for (since the Dev's just don't agree that it's useless) , which is WHY I don't pay any attention to the indicators anymore... you just have to come up with a good strategy and keep on it, regardless of the indicator.
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--Ursela, Captain of the Dastards
... and a few others ...
[Jul 2, 2003 1:12:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.rjmlb.com [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Meghaford wrote: 
Garf, I DO agree with you that they don't help... it's simply a battle I've ceased to fight for (since the Dev's just don't agree that it's useless) , which is WHY I don't pay any attention to the indicators anymore... you just have to come up with a good strategy and keep on it, regardless of the indicator.


If some think they are useless and some think they are helpful, it seems best to leave them in. I am concerned that Gard finds them counterproductive...
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[Jul 2, 2003 1:34:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
stevoid



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Sailing indicator not quite right? Reply to this Post
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I have found that the sailing one seems to be not working as well since the new release...I've got incredibles while it's mostly been dark blue for the league? Not that I'm complaining about the incredibles you understand - in fact if that's the mistake long may it live ;-)
[Jul 2, 2003 1:48:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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If understanding the indicators (or not being able to) is making it too upsetting to play, you need to find another game -- or maybe not take part in alpha tests. The puzzle is no less fun for their presence. Doing things that give you all sorts of praisy messages and big fonts are GOOD, so do more of those. There isn't really anything else to it.
[Jul 2, 2003 2:11:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Homullus, your usually welcome laisez-faire approach may not be appropriate here. If the indicators are functioning in a negative capacity, they should be changed or removed. I personally have never found them a hindrance and find most of them very helpful. However, there are already others of differing opinion. Had Sadako not already known how to play, the indicator could be leading her down an improper course of action.

We have reevaluated the mission of the indicators and are making a minor change that will hopefully lead them to produce more useful information.

-Nemo
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[Jul 2, 2003 2:38:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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thanks, nemo! i'll reply how it works for me now after playing around a bit.

homullus - i guess you got me wrong. i'm not feeling personally frustrated because i cant do the puzzles or dont understand what they are about. my bilging is actually pretty good at the moment with a legendary standing, but after all, this *is* the game design board, and i felt that the design of that indicator was bad. i even gave examples of situations where this was very obvious. also, i'm very much aware of what an alpha is, and this is not my first. this kind of feedback should be what testing is for, no?

now with one thing, you're actually right: this game might not be the right one for me in the long run. when i initially read how things work - doing puzzles without real scoring - i was pretty sure it couldnt work at all. but since i noticed that many people, especially the "family type" of players that are far more common in this game than in any other i've played, seem to be happy with this, i did not even ask for precise scores.

i would prefer them - i need numbers to crunch, i cant be fully happy with a game that i cant analyze in every single detail, but i understand this has been discussed, there seems to be a player base for it, and heck, i even have fun in the game myself.

so please, just take what i post here as general feedback. i fully understand that the very basic design question of having detailed numbers to crunch has been decided long before i even knew of the game.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 2, 2003 4:16:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Yeah, you're right, and I think I misunderstood you a bit . . . when you said "the motivation to play is severely lacking" I took that to mean that the indicators made you not want to play at all, which seemed really silly feedback. If I understand you correctly now, you meant that the indicators provided insufficient motivation to play per se, independent of your other motivations for playing. That is to say, the indicators did nothing for you, but you still play and do well, as evidenced by your rating.
[Jul 2, 2003 5:06:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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aye, thats far better a wording than i used.
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- Randal

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[Jul 2, 2003 5:13:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
akebia



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garf wrote: 
i would prefer them - i need numbers to crunch, i cant be fully happy with a game that i cant analyze in every single detail,


Oh, but you can analyze them in every single detail. You just need to work harder.

Many of us felt the same way but viewed the missing scores as yet one more puzzle-- the puzzle of figuring out what magical secret scores are being applied and how they work. Most of the tips about swordfighting came out of our challenging each other with specific tricks to try out. ("How many broken single blocks turn into how many sprinklies? When counting up broken single blocks, do you count the sword that triggers the break or not?") I'm thrilled with my derived knowledge on swordfighting and sailing, as well as knowing what words come after Bingo, Xxxxxx, and Xxxxx.

If I told you that Super Mario gets 10 points for each second he arrives early at his destination and that he gets 100 points for each out-of-the-way coin he reaches, you'd still have to experiment in-game a little to figure out which coins are worth running to. You have to race past some coins once (perfectly, which may take practice) and go out of your way once (perfectly, which may take practice), and one of those trials is going to give you a less-than-perfect score. So, here, you'll just need to perform more trials-- and if you derive equivalent performance results but believe that coins are worth 99 points, is that so bad?
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garf



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after about 30 minutes of navy-jobbing, i can say that it somehow feels more responsive. that is, before any placebo effects, of course. ;)

however, i just had it happen that when the ship left port and i started with a fresh puzzle, the bilging pump was going sprinkling yellow before i even made a single click, and it stayed like that for some seconds before gradually going down.

is this intended? if so, whats the purpose? and if its intended, why doesnt it always happen?
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- Randal

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[Jul 2, 2003 7:17:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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akebia, i dont want to discuss this here simply because i have a feeling that everyone, most of all the devs, are bored and sick of that debate (i imagine it has been done for bazillions of postings somewhere already).

if you're really interested, feel free to mail or pm me about it.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
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NateDbo



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I too was confused by the indicator versus the league report.
Knowing now that the league report is not reflective of an overall, but rather an at-the-moment performance cleared up the confusion.
If I understand correctly, the league report displays the status of one's indicator right before the league-mark is reached. Perhaps instead it
should be show how the player has been doing over the course of the previous league. I'd hate for the officer-on-board to think I'm doing Poor when my performance had merely dwindled right before finishing a league...
[Jul 3, 2003 7:26:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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Re: duty puzzle feedback Reply to this Post
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No, the League report does show your overall performance for that league. It's the in-puzzle indicator that shows your performance for the last few moves.
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NateDbo



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Now I'm really confused. Oh well I think I've got it straight now.
Are the league report and indicator both well-documented? I must've skimmed over that part :-/
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garf



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as it seems im not alone with my opinion about the performance indicators, i got a suggestion:

how about implementing it as a bar that directly reflects your scoring. make it inverse to scaling of scoring (i.e. if scoring is on a linear scale, make it linear, if scoring is exponential, make it logarithmic), and update it real time.

for better relation to rankings, mark the important points where scoring would give you a better rating if the puzzle was to end at that time. i.e. have a marker for fine at the bottom, a marker for good and so on the whole way up to incredible (and beyond, depending on how far you can score above incredible).

this way, you avoid numbers, but would people give a *far* better indicator how well they perform in the puzzles.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 5, 2003 8:09:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
RainbowMoon



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my thoughts Reply to this Post
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i really hate to ask a 'stupid' question but...

i thought that the performance indicators were for everyone on the ship doing the puzzle at that time. so if someone else is booching and you're doing great, it'll be a middlin' score. is that throwing off your tests at all garf? (i really hope this isn't blindingly stupid!)

until i read this post, i didn't even notice that the games were not 'scored' in a numerical way. i guess i fall into the 'family' type player, as in, i am definitely not a hard-core gamer, but i love to play games. the fun in the game for me comes with the interaction with other players, but the ability to puzzle independently as well. i guess i don't analyze my playing with numbers.

but i have noticed that i have a hard time with bilging, partly because i can't figure out what is good and what is bad playing. i never seem to connect how i did with the scoring. i usually avoid bilging as much as possible now, probably due to that fact.
but what someone said, to watch the words that pop up for indicators, i will be trying it out again and seeing if that helps me or not.
[Jul 7, 2003 10:30:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ra1nb0moon [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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heh.. there's nothing stupid about that question. its not documented anywhere, and it seems that you are not alone with feeling its not related to your performance at all.

but the answer to your question is (to my best knowledge) that its just your individual score. i can kinda prove that when on carpeting which i more or less fully understand. if i perform well, indicator goes sparking yellow, if i dont, its going slow and red. it doesnt matter if someone else booches or scores incredible for that.

i think your post is very helpfull in that its yet another hint at how the current indicators dont work as they should.
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- Randal

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[Jul 7, 2003 10:43:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
RainbowMoon



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the reason i thought that the dials were for everyone - you can see all three indicators (unless i'm just thinking of the wrong thing - one reason i thought my previous post may have been a stupid question) for sailing, carp'ing, and bilging. so i thought because you can see these, even if you are not in a puzzle, they must give the indication of the crew as a whole. i guess i just assumed, and i know what that means, so again, that's why i wasn't sure about the stupid quotient.

am i even talking about the same thing as you? i can't remember getting anything sparkly and often i get a few incredibles in a row on carp'ing now. i'm thinking of the half-circles lined up on the right side, above where your crew is listed when you are in a puzzle. is there another puzzle indicator somewhere i don't know about?

oh woe is me, i'm just a 3-week-old, so maybe i'm lost....sorry if so!
[Jul 7, 2003 11:06:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ra1nb0moon [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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again, no reason to be ashamed. its not even in the docs, and if you have fun without all this, what should be bad about it?

to the topic - the indicators you mean are the speed, damage and bilge gauge.

when you puzzle next time, look for that small pump in the bottom right at bilging, for the small hammer at carp right of the field where new pieces appear and the sail on the little ship in the top right of the sailing puzzle. those things are what this discussion is about.
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- Randal

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[Jul 7, 2003 11:36:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
RainbowMoon



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oooooh! i had nooo idea those were indicators! i thought they were just some little cute little action icon. now i'll have to check it out again. wonderous new worlds to discover!

hrm...if i had no idea....mebbe others don't either. sorry dev's, maybe something should be documented about this...
[Jul 7, 2003 12:11:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Ra1nb0moon [Link]  Go to top 
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Docs Reply to this Post
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Aye, Rainbow, I just a moment ago penned a few words about the indicators for the docs, as we revise em all thoroughly for Beta. Harrr!
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