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Forums » List all forums » Forum: Game Design » Thread: Why do we have foraging again? |
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Thread Status: Normal Total posts in this thread: 208
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DreadedChris
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Pillaging is not broken from the jobber point of view, generally speaking, although it is more important to /vwho your potential employer first than it used to be. ---------------------------------------- ~< The Dread Pirate Chris >~ |
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sashamorning
Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Posts: 3629 Status: Offline |
Non-fountains have extremely limited fountain potential. Remember that the only PoE that exists in the game was created in the game. Dubs don't create PoE. Poker doesn't create PoE; it just funnels it from one place to another. There are exactly 5 places that PoE comes from: 1.) Pillaging. This includes flotillas and BK blockades, which are essentially complex (and very cool) versions of pillaging. 2.) Foraging. 3.) OM tournaments and contests. Very limited overall. 4.) Gems. Very limited. 5.) The navy. Gives out a fair amount, especially to newer players, but most older players are only navying for the stats, not the PoE. Foraging pumps more PoE into the economy. Without it, there simply will not be enough PoE in the economy to order as many goods (ships, clothing, etc.) as there is now. The effect that foraging has on dub prices is irrelevant to good costs, since even if the dubs are purchased with $$ by the purchaser, that person still needs to obtain the PoE from someplace. Foraging = more PoE to go around. That PoE pays laborers, jobber pay, merchants, etc. Foraging is just another way to inject PoE into the economy. That isn't to say that pillaging can't be improved (I think it should be), but the two complement--not replace--each other. ~Sasha ---------------------------------------- Sashamorning - Fiery-haired, fiery-tempered, 100% me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Burnt_Water
Joined: May 16, 2006 Posts: 3092 Status: Offline |
My post was asking what contributed the most to poker buy-ins if not by pillaging. To allow the possibilities of non-fountains, I've added subsection of PoE coming from. Template:
To put it again:
---------------------------------------- Hard and big guide to whack off Brigands How to make a pirate feel good |
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Westdakota
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A merchant brig holds 7 sloops worth of goods, which is plenty to cover several days of not buying. 120k for two, and anybody going into foraging at that scale probably was a trader before anyway, and already has a MB, so it's like 60k, which with gold profits, is less than a week of foraging to cover your storage space... Not 12 weeks...
Thanks for reminding me. Gold basically doubles the number. And as I understand it from the responses to my elite pillaging thread in TTQA, an elite pillage brings in 1-2k per battle, usually, for a participant. Thus, elite pillages are bringing in less than clicking on a button over and over again, without the need for any puzzling (the sloop version of foraging). Somebody was asking where the "evil" in it was? Right there.
They complement each other NOW. Foraging SHOULD however, be replaced by pillaging, money-wise. Because foraging is not even a game, much less a puzzle, and it brings in more money than top level pillaging does, which is supposed to be the bedrock of the game. That wouldn't even require new coding. Just take foraging out of the hold's radial display, stop markets from buying it, and tweak the pillaging payout variables so that payouts put out exactly as much more poe as foraging was putting out before. The end. Anybody who is freaking out and going "OMG, but foraging funds blockades, where would we be without it!" is either a major forager trying to maintain their racket, or is not thinking very carefully. Pillaging can be made to replace ANY fountain in the game with almost zero effort, if necessary. And when the thing it can replace is a boring, skill-less non-game, it is necessary. Afterward, it would be nice to add in something to replace the incentive for long distance trading. I have been suggesting markets on every island and elimination of merchant brigands, which also requires no new coding, but whatever, something. This can happen shortly after foraging is gone, though. ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Westdakota at Sep 1, 2007 7:22:22 PM] |
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Flak_88
Joined: Aug 14, 2004 Posts: 2585 Status: Offline |
I bit of elaboration on my position. This means mainly the longevity of jobber commitment to pillages and the navver/jobber ratio. In order to play the money game you need decent crewcuts as getting people to pool money without complaining is difficult. This relates a bit to what Chavez has said before about new content drawing people away from pillaging. For instance for awhile I was using flotillas to fund since you could once again get jobbers easily but this has now died off. Foraging is steady and reliable, not necessarily the most profitable. Despite Astrolabe's numbers showing the true cost of foraging, that is a dependable money source one can count on. I'll take 1/2 the POE reliably everytime over unstable and unreliable people. It's a heck of a lot easier to get jobbers on a galleon or GF paying insane wages then to find elites to fill a brig. I can play a much more antisocial game shopkeeping then you ever can foraging. Oh and foragers are by far the easiest PVP targets to let Westdakota know, and they do have to puzzle if they don't want to get caught. The payout is just crap due to the booty system and size of fruit. ---------------------------------------- Flakcannon, on all English Oceans, except that imposter on Malachite. Farming, cleaning up your poo, and making you drink it. |
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Westdakota
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Foraging at over 10,000 poe per hour (with the gold added in) is not half the poe of anything. Don't try and make it sound like a balanced game design, with proper costs and benefits. It is BOTH reliable, AND equally or more profitable per time than anything else you can do.
Shopkeeping is impossible to do completely antisocially, because you have to sell to people, and compete with people running other shops with your prices, and for getting commodities. It's no cocktail party, but there is still at least participation in the multiple user network of the game. Foraging can be done 100% without ever doing anything with anybody, except buying a small amount of rum. And if I am in a sloop with anything in the hold, I am an almost impossible pvp target. Fruit, gems, hemp, it makes no difference what you're carrying. It's a sloop. If you are halfway competent, you can run from pretty much anything, even while soloing. Obviously you have to puzzle to do that DURING the pvp battle... but not any other time (I can usually run from imperials with just the swabbies sailing, even. I wouldn't normally risk it, but it's quite doable). You can't count having to puzzle during pvp battles as the "foraging puzzle." I think I've been attacked exactly twice ever while merchanting by a pvper. It's exceedingly rare and of negligible importance to anything about this. |
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CashCarStar
Joined: Mar 4, 2004 Posts: 1210 Status: Offline |
6.) Skellies, @ 1000/each per visit. Not a huge fountain, but if we're being exact :D Edit: and an even lesser fountain: 7.) Refer a friend bonus ---------------------------------------- Festrunk - Viridian ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by CashCarStar at Sep 2, 2007 2:49:37 AM] |
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TuucciZ
Joined: Nov 3, 2005 Posts: 2359 Status: Offline |
8.) Wagering money against bots. I think the best solution is adding a foraging puzzle or lowering the value of fruit. EDIT: Now that I think of it, more fruit should be taken in PvPs and soloing should be made harder. This would encourage people to fight foragers, and the foragers would have to hire more people to help them. There'd be more risks in foraging and the same income as before but divided by many players. The foragers wouldn't be so rich, and the economy wouldn't take a too big hit. ---------------------------------------- Tuuc on Sage. Yes, I'm back.
---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by TuucciZ at Sep 2, 2007 3:38:41 AM] |
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Astrolabe1
Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Posts: 1091 Status: Offline |
I have yet to see foraging make that. I checked my figures and discovered that I'd miscalculated hours -- the actual move-fruit-with-MB-on-Viridian figures come out to 2454 poe/hr for foraging, and that's including gold. I think I"ll need to see what happens with the "trash the cheap fruit" approach, 'cause <2500 poe/hr is just sad. (And yes, I realize that on Sage and Hunter, with its much shorter interarches, it's higher than on Viridian... but you can easily fix that by tweaking the kind of fruit the adjoining markets buy, lengthening that distance a bit, without having to make an significant code changes which require beta testing and threaten to destabalize the economy in unforseen ways.) Anyway, why the heck are people so pissy about foraging? It takes nothing away from their game experience -- in fact, it adds to it by helping fountain poe into the system, which is important now that so much less is being pillaged. If you're just upset become some people can actually make some poe at the game, take your anger out on poker players. They're the ones making over 10k per hour and buying up all the houses, clothes and furniture. Foragers have to spend many weeks if not months' income just to get the ships they need to forage efficiently... it's a long time before they turn a profit, and then it's at a slow rate. No, foraging should be the least of your concerns about "negative effects" on gameplay. The destruction of crew/flag-based social life, the jobbing pool, the attitude toward pillaging and the "pirate" focus of the game should be of more concern... because as YPP becomes more and more an instant-gratification gamehouse, it'll have less and less staying power (despite its growing selection of cool solo games) as new people pass through, get bored quickly, and leave again... and those who used to stay -- those who liked a bit of a challenge and the sort of uniqueness like the pre-poker YPP offered -- find now no reason to stay even that long. ---------------------------------------- ASTROLABE To tl;dr-ers... is this because you have the attention span of a stunned badger or the intelligence of one? :-P My HWFO post Pillaging anecdotes ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Astrolabe1 at Sep 2, 2007 5:09:42 AM] |
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CashCarStar
Joined: Mar 4, 2004 Posts: 1210 Status: Offline |
I knew you could do it. There were a lot of words in the first half of your post that weren't poker, but I knew you could make it happen. BTW, how are poker players "buying up all the houses"? The landlord doesn't lock you out if there's already too many tenants. ---------------------------------------- Festrunk - Viridian |
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Astrolabe1
Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Posts: 1091 Status: Offline |
It's true that "new content" will draw people to spend time on it: first lots of people rush to try the new puzzle; then a small percentage decide they like it better than other content and continue to do it. E.g. flotillas -- everyone rushed to do it initially; now, as you point out, it's harder (though still possible) to staff one. But what's also true -- and this is the more fundamental point -- is that a fair % of people will simply go "where the money is". To put it another way, they will go toward those activities which the game rewards. For this portion of the player/client base, the issue is not so much an objective evaluation of "what puzzle do I like best" but "how do I 'win'?" And "winning" is, by the very design of the game itself, largely (if not entirely) defined in terms of the poe which is required to buy the houses, the clothes, the ships... heck, to get the items (ships, swords, badges, etc) you need to be allowed even to play the game in the first place! And so, when people ask, "how do you win this game?" or "how do you advance in it?" or "how do you achieve success", they look to where the poe is. Look to what the game rewards and values. And what poker did -- and lots and lots of people have observed this -- was to replace "pillaging" as the answer to that question with "poker". Sure, no one wins poe at poker on "average", but no one plays for the "average", they play to win. The fact that you can lose poe at poker doesn't keep people from trying any more than the fact that you could lose poe on restock kept people from pillaging. Poker promises to _individuals_ the largest payout for the least investment of time and poe. Just check this example, where a poker player documents a typical evening of making 450k per hour on poker. There's a fair number of people on these forums who regularly whine about foraging and labor alts, apparently horrified that -- with the investment of doubloons in ships and badges, and with intense puzzling to move foraged commodities -- some people might actually be making as much as (gasp!) 20k/hr. Horror -- we can't have people earning that much at the game, now can we?! Well, except, of course, the poker players making 25 times that amount. [/sarcasm] One of the things which attracted and impressed me about YPP, back when I first discovered it, was the balance it offered -- there were comparable ways of winning by pillaging, by merchanting, by tourneying. Both the "starting" and "elite" levels of those activities offered comparable poe/hr returns to players... and so players could chose the "route" which best matched their interest, skills, and playtime... trusting that, as newbies, they'd be rewarded for their effort the same as newbies in the other avenues; that, pursuing elitism in the parts of the game they liked, they weren't cutting themselves off from some more profitable kind of focus. And, for most players, the one reliable -- and most rewarding -- activity was to get with a good crew and job on a good pillage. And since big tournies were relatively rare (there being no autotournies and familiars left-and-right back then) and merchanting/stalls requiring a fair bit of poe to start up, the starting place for most players was also such pillages. Players learned (and were rewarded) for working cooperatively, with teamwork, for mutual benefit. They were trained in pirating skills, saw good pillage leadership in action... to hope some day to be leading pillages themselves and, in turn, train the next generation of pirates. And this meant that YPP had a vibrant community. Lots of crews had active forum sites, officer training programs, etc. And pillaging -- which by its very design presupposed such a community to be succesful and fun -- was a vibrant part of the game, with good pickup pillages constantly available to attract and reward new players. And it was this community, this unique "cooperative spirit" for advancement, which attracted so many people and got YPP so much success and rewards. It wasn't just some player-vs-player environment where you won by hurting others (e.g. Travian); it wasn't just some sterile gamehouse where your play or puzzling was isolated from anyone else (as everyone had to work together on that pillage so that all could succeed and be rewarded). It was something, new, and different, and fresh, and attractive, and communal. Poker destroyed all that. Once poker was added, the balance was destroyed. It quickly became clear that the "elite" players in poker would make 10s if not 100s of times what the "elites" in any other venue would make. Sure, every poe won at the poker table is lost, but that's not what new players looked at -- they look at "what activity promises the most rewards to an individual." And every greenie could go watch the 200k tables and see people winning the sort of 450k per hour as documented in the link above. Thus, after poker, there was no longer a balance or options for those who wanted to "advance" in the game and get the "tangible rewards" it offered (clothes, houses, furni, etc) -- but only that single route. Why waste time learning duty stations puzzles, finding a good crew, getting a ship, learning to pillage -- why buy a stall, sink in lots of poe, and then spend a lot of time for little payback trying to turn a profit -- when the game offers the hope of putting in a few hundred and walking away with a million? After all, you don't even have to be that good at poker -- you just have to be better than the handful of people at your table... And (at least on green oceans) if your luck or play is bad, why then just go buy a few more doubs, sell them off, and try again. No need ever to step foot on a ship. Pirates in name only. Sure, there remained other ways to make a fair bit of poe -- that small % of the population who is elite in various tourney games can rake it in on the big tournies when they happen (which seems to be more and more frequent these days), especially if an uberrich pokerplayer happens to want the elite trinkets, familiars and other rewards you get for tournies. (Rewards again denied to pillagers.) But rather than having to be better than 100 people in a tourney to get a decent cut, poker players have to be better (or luckier) than 9 (or fewer) other players to win at a table. And, unlike tournies, poker (at least on green oceans) is always going on. So after the initial "surge" to play the new poker game, that % of players who were trying to "win" shifted from pillaging to poker. Unlike all the other games -- which would attract those who "felt like playing it now" and "I like this game best" and "I'm one of the few elites at it and make it a staple of my play" -- poker also attracted everyone (save those who suck at poker and are smart enough to realize it) who are simply gravitating toward "what is the most efficient way to 'win' in this game" and simply follow the game mechanics, whatever they are. Heck, in the first two nights poker was out, I watched people regularly making more in one evening than I'd made after months and months of quality pillaging, careful investing, intelligent merchanting, etc. Meaning that the % of clients regularly on poker (at least on Viridian, and on the other green oceans when I checked -- because of the ability to buy and sell off doubloons, I know that this % is higher than on blue oceans) stabalized at about 12%. That's consistently the number I"ve gotten when I've done multi-daily-check-for-a-week average in the past... just last night I randomly checked, and found well over 150 clients on poker out of about 1300 logged in -- came in at about 12.06% of clients (perhaps as much as 20% of players?) on poker. Quite average. [ADDITION: During the "novel" period of Atlantis - while people are still on their first braver badges - I've found (though I havent' tested it rigorously) that this average drops from 12% when no Atlantis ships are out to around 8% when they are).] Now, the immediate effect of this addition was a significant drop in jobbers. I remember I - having inherited a largely dormant crew - was going to try, shortly after poker came out, to start recruiting and growing. Couldn't do it. Winning runs; friendly XO; lots of fun chat and banter; polite answers to greenie questions; giving people "breaks" and station-switching to keep things livened up. All done well. Yet whenever that sloop or WB ported and the "if you want to join, come on up to the helm" went out, everyone vanished. And, just about invariably, when I asked why, the response was that they were there just to grab a quick bit of poe for the poker tables, and weren't interested in crews and pillaging. That's not where the money was. Now, this may have been a bit too soon after poker came out and was still novel -- perhaps we were at 20% of clients and 30% of players at that point. I honestly don't remember... and I was a.f.g. for several months thereafter. But it was quite clear, at that point, that poker was making building up a new, competent crew quite difficult, especially for a small number of officers (which was our case). Nevertheless, I know that good pillages continued after poker came in, as the "old hands" were still out there leading it, and taking on occasional new players. The thing is, there's a regular cycling of players. Some people stop playing (I know many long-time players and pillagers quit - or gave up pilllaging - the summer after poker came out) and new people show up. And the new people didn't have that experience of the excellent, camaradery-full pillages & crews & flags to draw on. They learned the game as it was then... poker was how to make poe; tournies were how to win the "unique" and "elite" items; and pillaging was just something of a drag which didn't make that much poe, which required a great deal of poe to start doing yourself (badge, ship, stock), and which didn't offer the individual rewards which pokering or parloring did. And so the result was a slow change in the "mindset" of the game, as a greater and greater % of the ocean grew up under this mindset. Is it any wonder that the # of "where's my instant gratification" complaints increased in the following year? That's the sort of player the game attracted and rewarded... and the character of the player base - and its behavior - shifted accordingly. For the last year and a half, since poker was implemented, the older players who grew up under "YPP is about pirating adventures on the open seas with a fun and social crew in a cooperative enterprise" have slowly left and been replaced by people for whom (as someone said on my /fo this weekend) "YPP is about winning poe in poker and then standing around in fancy clothes in chat circles." I mean, just look at this recent post... showing just what the mindset of new players is -- i.e. "YPP is about making lots of money in cards" and has nothing to do with pirating, puzzles, crew, teamwork, socializing, ets:
Autodivvy didn't so much create new problems with pillaging as bring these existing problems - and this social shift - into the foreground. After a year of poker's presence, the majority of new players saw pillaging merely as a "service" provided to them by other players' investment of time & funds to get them their quick poe and instant buy-in. Their concept of pillaging -- because of the changed game mechanics -- was that it was a quick one-shot thing, involving little commitment/team-spirit/cooperation, to grab a bit of poe (be it for poker buy-ins or whatever else). Now, you can argue that this "on and off" pillaging is a good thing and this change was an improvement. That's a matter of style and preference. And certainly there are folks who -- all other things being equal (e.g. something doesn't come up irl -- which will interrupt any puzzle or activity) -- like this style. But for that sizeable % of people who are just following what the game mechanics rewards so that they can "win" -- people who before *would* have stayed on (as so many did before poker) for multiple battles to get more poe, and enjoy the process! -- they're doing this on-and-off pillaging not because that's what they want per se, but that's because the rewards and culture the changed game environment promoted. You can also argue (as Chavez does) that people wanted this all the time, and all that was happening was that folks now could do it. I find this argument utterly vacuuous, and for two reasons. First, that % of people who are just "playing to win". They want on-and-off pillaging now not because that's what they want per se, but because that's what the game promotes -- to win now, hop on for one (early) battle in a pillage, puzzle (or laze) a bit, grab an autodivvy share, and hop off to poker/tournies/chatrooming, i.e. those activities the game now rewards with good payout and elite items. This is largely confirmed by players' reaction to the introduction of Atlantis -- it has shown us that there are still plenty of players - when the game mechanics requires and rewards it - who are perfectly happy to stay on a "pillage" for a long period of time, puzzling and socializing, to get a reward (or most of their reward) only at the end. If players had always hated this and only did it before autodivvy because they "had" to, then they'd be out on pillages now, not going to Atlantis for 3 hours at a time, because they're going to what the game rewards in the hope of "winning" something (in this case, the occasional nice item from the lottery). Secondly, the new players that stick around will be those who are attracted to the "new" game dynamics. The player looking for a game with more depth than a gamehouse will, increasingly, join YPP, look around and try out some of the different one-shot puzzles, try out some pillaging and find it unrewarding (and, often, badly run), see that "winning" comes from one-shot pokering or parloring, and (if that's not what he's looking for) wander off to other venues. So it's not so much that the game is providing what players always wanted as that the players are self-selected to want what the game provides. So while, sure, there'll be a small number of pre-poker/autodivvy folks who "always wanted" what YPP now is, far more are accounted for by the two reasons listed above. The inevitable result of all this over the last 1.5 years is the new "spirit" and "nature" of the game -- a change which is most dramatically shown in off-the-notice-board pillaging, but touches every element. (I won't get in to the deleterious effect which these changes have hand on merchanting... it's less than on pillaging, but still quite pronounced, as competition by poker-supported stalls which operate at a loss drive up raw material prices and drive down sale prices... and as distilleries & IMs, dependent upon pillaging, find their markets drying up). The incompetence and disinterest of most notice-board jobbers; the disinterest in pillaging; the pillaging incompetence of many new players and crews; the erosion of crew and flag social life; the disinterest in and increased rarity of PvP on ships or blockades... all this is the quite obvious and inevitable result of the changes -- largely the direct or indirect effect of poker -- which have moved pillaging from the central social & economic engine of the game to a marginal (and increasingly frustrating & unrewarding) activity; and one quite out of synch with the rest of the game, as it's conceived to be more than just an isolated and individualistic 5-minute activity (despite the fact that lots of people try to play it that way now) but rather as the focus (and creator) of social teamwork play. I remember when I first started YPP, shortly after Viridian opened. I was a clueless greenie who largely had to find his own way. I checked out all the puzzles, thought they were fun (especially alch). Card games were cute, but I could get that elsewhere. The navy puzzles were neat, and quite different from other things I"d seen. But what was really cool -- and well-paying -- teamwork and socializing of pillaging. And there was a lot of *GOOD* pillaging going on then, even off the noticeboard for a random greenie. I worked away hard on the navy to learn the puzzles and get my stats up so that I could get jobbed onto good pillages. I found a good pillaging crew and started to go on better pillages. I worked hard, slowly saved up poe, eventually got a sloop and promoted to O. Then I could start exploring the world a bit... learn about trading. I set off to mem much of the ocean and find Napi Peak (which, back then, with only 4 inhabited islands in Jade and most charts only available from pillaging, was a challenge). I remember how pleased I was when I'd finally managed to save up 100k -- took quite a while -- and bought my first stall. And by then I was networked into a crew and flag, and involved in blockades and (very occasionally) politics. I.e. the whole "social dynamics" thing which, once puzzles get old and you need a break from them, keep players playing. The game had depth and challenge... and that's what made it appealing. The "wealth" and "eliteness" was out there -- but you had to work hard (and with teamwork) to get there. And if you got bored of one part of the game, there were plenty of other, equally rewarding, parts to explore -- and the community you'd build up in those early cooperative/teamwork days encouraged you to stick around and explore them. Most if not all of that is lost now. With the "instant gratification" and "quick win" mindset, with the undermining of the necessity or value of networking with good crews and flags, all that is gone. People show up, grab some startup poe, win big at poker, buy up a house and clothes, buy a ship & check out pillaging (decide it's stupid and sell the ship in the inn to get more poker poe), and soon get bored of the game and wander off. Where's the challenge? I dunno about you, but I"ve always found that in RPGs, it's often the early levels -- well, maybe after the first few -- which are the most challenging and fun. You can't wipe out your enemies with a mega-spell in 1 round... you have to think and plan and deploy and be smart about things. It's not "instant gratification"... you have to be careful and patient and smart. That's the challenge. That's the fun. But YPP these days is more like starting a RPG at level 40 - and then wandering about beating up monsters (i.e doing random puzzles) with no real challenge or investment. And that destroys the appeal and staying power of the game. I really believe that now - as all the summer "gamehouse" players leave (having found no community or challenge to make them stay -- heck you can play hearts on yahoo without a pirate badge; play poker elsewhere and actually win real money) -- we're going to see the results of this changed mindset and attitude which first started with poker. Going to see the results of the destruction of YPP's initial charm and attractiveness... and the undermining of the conceptions undergirding its design. It took a year to "trickle down" into the social & economic life, and it was masked this summer by summer players. I think by this winter & spring we'll be reaping this whirlwind... and that it will mean YPP's existence was shortened by several years, as fewer and fewer players are attracted to a "mere gamehouse" when there are so many more (and bigger and better) of them out there. We've gotten a bit of a boost from Atlantis, but that's starting to drop off -- and will do even more so when many people don't bother rebuying a bravery badge. I expect, come November or December, Viridian will rarely break 1000 players (or, rather, players plus alts) on even at peak times on weekdays. We'll perhaps get a bit of a boost with another round of summer "gamehouse" players next summer (though by then the lingering vestigages of pillaging and crew and "keep the customer coming back" stuff will be even more moribund)... and at this time next year, YPP -- which could have gone on strong for many more years if it had kept its pre-poker charm and focus -- will be quietly dying. Not with a bang, but a whimper. I hope I'm wrong. I doubt I am. Meanwhile (getting back to this thread), to bring pillaging "in line" with the new YPP, for as long as it lasts, perhaps the simplest thing to do would be to "reset" the ship after each puzzle so that each new engagement in "independent" and started without any damage or bilge. Sure, that destroys the whole "spirit" and "nature" of pillaging as it was initially conceived. But that's already mostly happened anyway because of the changed YPP world -- and you might as well simply replace the square peg with a round one, now that the hole's been changed. And leave foraging alone. Foragers help, don't hurt, anyone -- and it's one of the few remaining "outposts" of the game to attract and reward (even if at a very modest rate, a mere fraction of poker & parlortarting) the non gamehouse players. Destroy foraging and labor alting and you're going to drive those who still do the non-pokering economic/merchant thing away from the game (or, at least, from stall and commodity providing), which means, in turn, you won't have the clothes and furniture and other nice things for the uberrich 450k-an-hour poker players to buy, which means that even they will get bored of the game (since there's nothing left to spend their funny money on) and they leave too. ---------------------------------------- ASTROLABE To tl;dr-ers... is this because you have the attention span of a stunned badger or the intelligence of one? :-P My HWFO post Pillaging anecdotes ---------------------------------------- [Edit 4 times, last edit by Astrolabe1 at Nov 6, 2007 12:01:24 PM] |
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Shanoyu
Joined: Jul 28, 2003 Posts: 4600 Status: Offline |
I mostly agree with you. A major problem seems to be that poker completely demolished the existence of individual player progression. Whereas before someone had to get reasonably good at the puzzles or shopkeeping and social networking in order to get all that sweet swag, the bar is considerably lower now. You have a new class of players that looks to make 200 to 2000 poe from a fountain and then try their chances at a game of luck / the law of large numbers. Foraging is an avenue in which there is a degree of individual progression and does seem like a net positive in that respect. ---------------------------------------- His Holiness, The Dope |
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Westdakota
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Okay, seriously. The math here is not that hard. If you came out with 2500, you're using a different kind of arithmetic than everybody else is... 1 alt = 12 cheap and 8 expensive = 700 poe / day 1 alt = 140 poe for a badge, on virid / day 1 alt = 700 - 140 = 560 poe profit / day 1 MB = 37 alt days of space. 1 trip = 37 * 560 = 20,720 + 10,000 for gold (conservative) = 30,720 30,720 / (1 hour sailing + max 1.5 hours foraging for 12 accounts, in two batches of 6) = 12,288 per hour. I was rounding down to be conservative. 12k is probably more realistic. And trashing the cheaps comes out to be (slightly) less per hour. It's certainly possible to have not seen 10k before, if you weren't looking at all...
Again, being a fountain is meaningless. Pillaging could probably be tweaked by the ringers to completely compensate for this in 10 minutes and the next reboot. I'm sure they already have a variable set up that directly adjusts payout magnitudes. So now we move on to the next questionable bit of logic: that it doesn't affect anybody else's game experience. Sure, if they never spent any of that money, it wouldn't. Otherwise, you're crazy. They affect prices, blockade outcomes, perceived prestige levels of clothing and such, etc. etc. By your logic, it shouldn't be against the rules to make a hacking program that just instantly grants me 40 million poe, because that wouldn't be "taking anything away from other people's game experiences." So why don't you go work on a program like that? Better usage of your time than arguing on here, and you seem to be sure that you shouldn't morally be banned/arrested for it. ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Westdakota at Sep 2, 2007 3:13:17 PM] |
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Astrolabe1
Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Posts: 1091 Status: Offline |
One difference is that I"d assumed only 6 account (18 pirates) for foraging. Heck, I only have 4 set up when I was trying out foraging. But let me try the 12 accounts for 36 pirates to see what happens... * 36 pirates = ca. 20 * 36 fruit/day = 1 MB full in 1.5 hours. * sailing = 1 hr + 10 units of rum (ca. 460 poe) + swabbie move to next island (400 poe) * sale (assuming storage space to wait for 60 & 14) = 23296 + 10000 (33% chance of gold with that much foraging) = 34158. * badges: 36 * (5*850) / 30 = 5100/day. * (34158-460-400-5100) / (2.5) = 11279 poe/hr. Okay, so with 12 accounts rather than 6, per-hour profit improves significantly. I hadn't realized the difference would be that much and just went with the 6. Now, let's be realistic and accept that you won't get every hour out of the alts (after all, you'd have to log on at exactly the same time every day each of the 36 foragers), and probably don't have 2.5 hours to spend every day on them. Not to mention the problems of backlog if you happen to have fallen behind on moving and run out of storage space... so that you have nowhere to put fruit. And, of course, all this assumes that you never lose any to brigands or players -- assumes, in fact, that, excpet perhaps right at the start of a run, you never even get engaged but always manage to turn about and avoid that delay (both of the bnav and of having to get back up to speed after... if you can before getting engaged again.) No way to guestimate the # of times you either get multipally engaged or even pillaged on a run... and if you're doing it nearly every day, it's bound to happen periodically. But let's say that, between a shifting schedule and occasional backlogs, you actually make a run like this 5 days out of 7 on average. Your profits go down but your expenses (at least for badges) stay the same. So, weekly, (5*(34158-460-400) - 7*5100) / (5 * 2.5) = 10463 poe/hr... assuming no multiple-engagement or pillaged runs. Since multiple engagements and even occasionally being pillaged are likely to happen, rounding that down to about 10k/hr seems optimistic... but it's a nice round number. Now, what are your startup costs to start doing this? All this works only under the "ideal" circumstance where you're always able to forage and move when you have time... so you need plenty of transport and storage. Remember, too, it's the non-poker players who would find this attractive, and non-pokertarts/parlortarts find pulling together much poe these days even harder than it used to be when pillaging still offered reasonable rewards. Well, you need 36 alts, each with a labor badge. 36 * 5 * 850 = 153k. You need at least 1 MB. Probably you need at least 2 so you don't get yourself stuck with a ship in one place and fruit in another. 25k+40d=59k; 2 MB = 118k Now, you're going to need storage at points of sale, because otherwise there will be many days you can't actually sell and would lose many days' work per month. Or sell at lower prices. You'll also need storage at the forage sites, 'cause otherwise you'll frequently get stuck not having enough space to forage, especially if you've got time some day to do the foraging but not the transporting. If you're really trying to spend an average of 2.5 hours on foraging every day to move 1 MB's worth of fruit daily, you're going, realistically, to need a GF at each of the 4 spots, or you'll run into enough bottlenecks to significantly reduce your income, as you run out of space to store fruit you haven't found a good price for. 1 GF = 95k + 100d = 180k. 4 GF = 720k. Total startup cost - 991k. In other words, nearly a million poe needs to be spent just in order to guarantee making around 10k/hr by foraging and transporting for about 2.5 hours just about every day. So you're looking at over 3 months of full-time foraging, just to break even. Of course, you can start up with less than this (smaller ships, fewer accounts, less frequent transport), but you won't be able to optimize things and so you'll be making a lot less than 10k/hr until you've got all the infrastructure in place. So, unless you're prepared to drop nearly 1 million poe and then work for 3 months at a fairly boring & thankless task just to get it back, you're looking at a rather longer period of time of gradually building up infrastructure until you can finally start to get that sort of income. I seriously doubt that there are that many people with 1 million lying around who feel like taking up foraging. If they've got that much, they're probably poker/parlortarts, or doub buyers, who can make a lot more than 10k/hr doing their prefered (and more highly rewarded) activities.
Nonsense. First of all, they'd have to spend their first million and over 3 months just to get the foraging set up. Only then do they start to free up money for other purchases. The only people who are affected meanwhile are the shipyards -- and I'm sure they're delighted to get the work, 'cause so many are idle so much of the time. As far as blockade outcomes, perceived prestige levels etc -- this foraging income doesn't hold a candle to the effects of the poker wealth. Look at all the people strutting around with gold and black and lots of houses and furniture. They are, for the most part, either poker players or tourney winners (who sell off their prizes/familiars). All the "prestige" items to go to parlortarts, and the people who make the most poe quickly are poker players, not foragers or pirates. So, no, foragers aren't strutting around in gold clothes on the docks. (Frankly, they're too busy, under your system, spending 2.5 hours every day just trying to get that fruit acquired and moved. They don't have time to strut.) In fact, the foragers are actually _servicing_ these parlortarts, both by bringing in the gold required to make those clothes and by scraping together enough poe (the only way left to them to do so) so that they can buy those elite trinkets and familiars (and ancient conches) which only parlortarts get these days and thus give those tarts the poe they need to buy the clothes & other "shag". So, yes, if you will, foragers have an effect on others -- a positive one. Not only do they help the shipyards, not only do they fountain poe into the system, but they also get gold into circulation and provide a market for all the "elite" items granted only to parlortarts.
That's just a strawman argument -- and a bloody stupid one too... which would only fool the most braindead into thinking you'd made any sort of reasonable point. A hacking program is against the terms of service. Buying ships, foraging, and doing the nav & sailing puzzles are not. I see no reason for people to object to foraging unless they're somehow "jealous" or "threatened" that other people might also be making poe. After all, foraging is open to anyone with the time and patience to want to attempt it. So I can only think it would be parlortarts & pokertarts who would object to foraging -- because it allows a non-parlor/poker-tart to get a bit of poe. What, having already muscled pillagers to the margins, do you now want to do that to merchants and economic players as well? Do that and you're going to wind up with a stagnant economy, empty stalls, no one to buy your elite trinkets and familiars, and a rapidly disappearing population as the only remaining players, the gamehouse & chatroom ones, drift off to other more attractive venues. ---------------------------------------- ASTROLABE To tl;dr-ers... is this because you have the attention span of a stunned badger or the intelligence of one? :-P My HWFO post Pillaging anecdotes |
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Westdakota
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Okay really now - clearly foragers are going to pretty much log on at the same time every day - people live in routines. You get home from work, and forage, etc. within about a 20-30 minute error window. Negligible. And yes, people who set up 12 accounts aren't fools - they do have that much time. (which for 12 accounts is about one hour, by the way, not 2.5..?) If they didn't, they would have just set up 6, or however many they could handle every day. (which by the way, does not affect profit/hour. I don't know where you're getting that from. As long as you have at least as many accounts as you can run on your machine at once, it all just scales up or down evenly). The sailing time also DOES include engagements (more often, just double turning around though). If you weren't engaged, you could sail 17 leagues in half an hour or less soloing a MB. An hour is assuming it takes you over twice as long due to evasive maneuvers, which is about right. I've made similar journeys many times as a trader, soloing MBs. Your startup costs are ridiculous, too. There is no reason to need 2 MBs - that doesn't make any sense - fruit is everywhere, always. And you wouldn't need anything more than two galleons for storage. that gives you 3 days to find a sale, and even then, you can just go to the other arch and start foraging there ahead of time in the rare, reare event that it might be taking longer. So still no wasted hours. 153k + 60k + 200k = 400k, not 1 million. Which is a little over an hour of foraging every day to break even in a month. That happens to be what you would be doing in this model anyway. So yes - one month to break even. And don't forget you can always sell you boats when you're tired of it - so actually probably about a week to break even. |
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Astrolabe1
Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Posts: 1091 Status: Offline |
That risk factor has to be factored in -- you can't say 10k/hr and assume that everything always goes well.
At least on Viridian, it frequently takes longer. If you want to wait for expensive fruit to be being bought at 60 or more on a particular island, you sometimes have to wait over a week. Moreover, without extra storage, you're screwed if you don't keep up the pace. You have to do that 2.5 hours of forage-and-transport every day, like clockwork. You can't afford to have one day when you've got time to forage but no time to transport because something comes up, or your net goes down, or whatever. Because then you have a backlog -- gotta move, then forage, then move again. (>3 hours) 2 irregular days in a row and you're really screwed. No, if you want to guarantee your 10k/hr, you need that "buffer" space so that you've got a day or two to "make up" for the inevitable irregularities and waiting for market prices to turn in your favor. Yeah, 4 GFs may be overkill... but not as much as you'd think! ---------------------------------------- ASTROLABE To tl;dr-ers... is this because you have the attention span of a stunned badger or the intelligence of one? :-P My HWFO post Pillaging anecdotes |
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Westdakota
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You could also just sell to the cochineal/harmattan palaces, or to another forager type, if it starts overflowing - people who DO have storage space. Did you consider that? You can usually get about half price (that's what I typically buy at, when I do just trading portions of it only), which is more than enough to cover your expenses for the small handful of days when they aren't buying in time. (an MB + two galleons gives you 7 days worth of space) |
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Astrolabe1
Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Posts: 1091 Status: Offline |
Last I checked, Harm (I think it was) was buying at 5 for ramb and 5 for pineapples. Not half price on either. ---------------------------------------- ASTROLABE To tl;dr-ers... is this because you have the attention span of a stunned badger or the intelligence of one? :-P My HWFO post Pillaging anecdotes |
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Westdakota
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Meh, well I'm sure some forager would buy it. I would, if I happened to be there, although I wouldn't be, cause it's an uninhabited island, but you know what I mean. Regardless, the 7 days of storage space should be enough to get you by without that happening much at all, even if it does sometimes take a week to find a buying market. For it to be worth two GFs, you have to lose a LOT of fruit to overflow. We are not just talking the spare day here and there. 200k worth is a lot. Oh also, its close to the same profit margins for trashing the cheap fruit and only keeping the expensives. You can also revert to that if you start overflowing. Yet another option. ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Westdakota at Sep 2, 2007 7:52:01 PM] |
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Squashbuckle
Joined: Dec 21, 2004 Posts: 6197 Status: Offline |
Astrolabe - All of the calculations you are doing are silly and incorrect. I can fill two MBs in about 45 minutes with just me and my one computer. With one person's help, I can move those two MBs to the sell point in less than 1 hour total shipping time (if that, but I'll allow for getting caught and the time to disengage). Those two merchant brigs are worth about 25K each in fruit. I get gold every 4ish MBs, so let's add 10K to the total value of each pair. If you pay your elite sailor 1K per ship, that's 2K for the help. Then it's 1K more to swabbie float back to the forage island. That's 57K in about 2.5 people hours of playtime, or about 23K per hour. The numbers change for people with slow computers, or people who lack the skills to move a MB so quickly with so few people and without losses. The profits are in line with leading a mid-high brig pillage, and require elite level merchant sailing skills to achieve these profits. The folks I know who forage without the skills to move a MB are confined to cutters, or get stuck losing 10-25% of their fruit, and consequently see more modest profits. In my opinion, there are only two things "broken" about foraging. One is the lack of puzzle, which of course is also broken about tailors, weaveries, construction sites, and furnishers. The second is the ease with which one can move a large ship solo, without bots, and without much risk of PvP or brigand engagements. That's not really a problem with foraging as much as with merchant runs of bulky items in general (wood and hemp are also affected, I'm sure). ---------------------------------------- Polly Hunter Captain of Flocktarts Avatar by Hedvvig |
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Westdakota
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You would have to be running at least 17 clients at a time... I have a brand new duo-core computer that starts to slow down noticeably at 6 or 7. I would test beyond that, but I don't seem to be blessed with having signed up 30 billion accounts before they made it impossible to do so. So here's 5 things inherently wrong with foraging, since you asked: 1) No skill is required to get more cash than doing anything else in the game, aside from foraging WITH skill (10k, not 23k - I'm talking more like the cutter scenario, or big ships with helpers). This is a skill centered game. That is wrong. 2) Even when you do the "skilled" version (MB soloing), the period of time that requires skilled work is still only 1/2 the time, compared to 100% of the time pillaging or playing in tournaments, or even playing poker. And that's with ONE person helping, not 15 on a pillage, so some might say it is more like 1/30th the skill per profit per hour... 3) People like you, who happen to have a large number of accounts, have an insane advantage over everybody else, and it is impossible for them to catch up, ever. You did nothing to deserve this except existing at a certain time. That is skewed, unfair, and messed up. And aside from all that, also happens to encourage grandfathered power, which makes the game stagnant. 4) People like you, with really fast machines in real life, have a huge advantage over other people. This is expressly coded against in pretty much every other puzzle in the game. All is designed to cut down on lag and allow everyone a fair chance, with a wide variety of machines. Again, weird/stilted game design that does not reflect OOO's general philosophies. 5) It can be trivially automated, without even having to write a frickin' AI. As if the highest human efficiency in the game wasn't enough. ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Westdakota at Sep 3, 2007 1:13:31 AM] |
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Astrolabe1
Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Posts: 1091 Status: Offline |
Polly -- as we've commented before, things are different where interarch distances are 6 rather than 17. There's an easy fix for that not requiring beta-testing or new code which would make those interarches long enough so that GF-floating doesn't pay. We've discussed that before.
Honestly, that also went out the window with poker... or, at least, with the mindset that poker inaugurated and which has been slowly building up over time. Compare notice-board jobbers and new pillagers from 2 years ago to today to see what I mean. But poker's not going anywhere... and those that complain about it on forums get flamed. I wonder, what % of people who are "in" to the game enough to post these days (already an unrepresentative self-selected subsection of players) do so because they're poker-made rich players... or, perhaps, are busy posting during the 80% of hands they've folded on. Hm, that might explain the hostility both toward poker-players and toward foraging here (Horror! a non-poker/parlortart way for a handful of players to get some money!! we can't have that!! that's nearly as bad as pillagers getting some money!!!)... ---------------------------------------- ASTROLABE To tl;dr-ers... is this because you have the attention span of a stunned badger or the intelligence of one? :-P My HWFO post Pillaging anecdotes |
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Jirges
Joined: Dec 12, 2005 Posts: 916 Status: Offline |
I love these foraging threads. Usually they pop up once a month or two. Some new person starts the thread, and the foragers rehash their positions - again. The tarts rip the foragers, foragers rip the tarts, the cycle continues. It's like the circle of life kinda.... I'm not going to say anything new, at least anything that cant be found with 5 seconds of forum searching. I started foraging on a small scale. Sloops. Then I learned how to solo a sloop and found out cutters hold twice as much. So I moved up, to eventually soloing MB's. I started out with 3 accounts. Now I am up to 20 accounts foraging. And no, I didn't have them grandfathered in. I bought them all. Yes, thats right, I paid $60 in real life money for my foraging accounts. And I did it legally. So don't give me this bull about not being able to do it because of account limits. If you don't have $60, then use the computer at the library or something. It CAN and IS done. Give me a foraging badge that lets me forage large amounts of fruit for a predetermined dub cost and I will stop using alts. Give me a long distance trade option, and I will stop foraing. Give me reliable jobbers and decent pillaging payouts and I will stop foraging. Give me, give me, give. I know what your thinking, why should I be asking for handouts? Because this is a flipping game. I come here to have fun. I don't come here to work. My idea of fun involves sexy spreadsheets, organiziation, planning. My idea of fun doesn't involve yelling at greenies about getting on a flipping station for an hour. My perspective of fun is different then yours, and it's the case for alot of people. So any blanket statement about how everything can be fixed with increased booty payouts is fundamentally flawed. Pillaging just isnt for everyone. If it WERE, then you would only need one island. You wouldnt need clothes, or furniture. You wouldnt need the alchemy puzzle, or drinking, or poker, or spades, or hearts. You wouldnt need Madder and Nettle. But guess what? OOO screwed up, inserted those features, now you have people in your precious pillaging game and DANG if you ever get rid of us. I know Im coming off as a idiot, but this argument makes me jaded. You can go over the numbers all you want, but it comes down to this. The smart people make more poe. Doesn't matter if its 4k an hour or 10k an hour. The smart people are smart enough to figure it out. As for this whole skill thing... this argument is really starting to bug me. I'm not the best in any one puzzle. I never will be. There will always be someone better then me, a gifted 13 year old who sees the puzzle far better then I ever will. They will win the tournaments, the Conchs, the poe, the familers. But I have something they dont. Ambition. Goals. The persaverance to reach them. Maybe I'm in the wrong game, but I've been relying on these skills my whole life. They are the great equalizer. They are also something that forum tarts are the first to attack. "Skill should determine how far you can go". This is tarts basic argument. Well, I'm not skilled. I don't have good stats. I don't have time to make a bizillion friends to up my social network so I can run a frig pillage. Does that mean theres no place for me in the game? I would hope not. Without being the best in anything, I have been able to accomplish alot. I've helped fund blockades, I've made friends in real life. I've sailed ships, and helped allies. And how do I fund it? With puzzles that don't involve any skill or luck, just determination. Foraging just happens to be one of the tools I use. Sure it's mindless clicking for a bit, but I staff a MG with 15 to move the fruit. I show up every day to maximimive my efficency. I move ships around and handle logistics. I sit on fruit and play the market. Theres more to foraging then just sitting in your chair in your moms basement in your underwear, drooling on a sandwich and mindlessly clicking. There is the set up and execution that requires planning and thought that I love. That is fun for me. That is fun for others too. I'm really rambling here, and I apologize. However, foragers are some of the smartest people you will meet in the game. They make up in personality and intelligence what they may lack in skill at puzzles. I'll end my foraging rant - for now- here. But everytime I see one of these threads, rest assured I'll be posting. And if I happen to miss it, then others will take my place. Theres just too many smart people here to let anti-foragers have their way. One last thing. Shoppekeeping can be accomplished without ever talking to another human being or playing a puzzle. You can make millions on it. Using your guys arguments, this should be banned. Sure, theres puzzles coming for the craftfs, but you only need to do those once every 10 days to keep active. Sure you need to sell your products on the market, but the smart people know what to sell and where. The market dictates what is profitable, and you need to think of the market, but you never have to talk to another human being. ---------------------------------------- Mentos ~ Wicked Peace Mentos says, "im a tart huh? i thought mentos were sweet?" Ladysheena says, "you're the sour apple kind" |
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Flak_88
Joined: Aug 14, 2004 Posts: 2585 Status: Offline |
I average about 16k per hour, I think there's a bit of slack time there where I could push that to 20k per hour, that's profit. Sinking flotillas and high end brig pillages if I can get the people will net me 30 to 50k per hour. I can get 10k per hour just doing green war brig pillages or as a jobber on a high end sloop pillage. That's with almost no investment, more fun and easy, but the noticeboard and even hearties just don't fill pillages like that often, compared to I could do it twice a day easy before.
High end tailoring averaged me around 100k per hour, without even having to talk to anyone or make any deals. I spent hours getting contacts to create a 2 million POE foraging fleet, time finding gold buyers, and you have to create social contacts to move your boats way beyond anything needed for shopkeeping. But shopkeeping is basically the same as foraging as an economic numbers game, except you can actually trade and make money. I've been beating on the markets on all islands horse for years, but I'm quite sure if that happens there will still be no profit in it (not none as much as better to pillage) since people always assume moving their own supplies = free. ---------------------------------------- Flakcannon, on all English Oceans, except that imposter on Malachite. Farming, cleaning up your poo, and making you drink it. |
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Squashbuckle
Joined: Dec 21, 2004 Posts: 6197 Status: Offline |
And then Hatchetback came along and solo-floated a Grand Frigate 17 leagues with only two losses - and then repeated that feat just to make sure it wasn't a fluke - so I don't think simply making the forage routes longer on Hunter and Sage will solve the soloing problem. Furthermore, I'm sure people have floated to move wood from Quetzal to Aimuari, or Guava to Cnossos for that matter, so I don't think soloing large ships is a foraging problem. It's a large ship problem. But that's a separate issue with its own thread. Personally, I like to forage sometimes. I'll go about one week a month with daily foraging, then get sick of the MB runs and stop for a month or so. I, personally, like the casual nature of foraging. I don't have to coordinate with 25 other people, just one or two to help me move the ships. I can do it any time I feel like it, even when my crew is mostly asleep. I can do it with people (I typically invite flaggies to come and pay them for their fruit) or alone. No other part of the game is so flexible. Other than shopkeeping - which at the elite level takes too much startup poe for the casual player - there is nothing else you can do for only 1 hour a day (forage one day, run the ships the next) at any hour of the day that makes a nice steady profit. In my old age (pushing 3 years in game), I'm bored with pillaging, uninterested in tournaments, and my stalls, while still profitable, are on autopilot. Foraging gives me a chance to play my favorite puzzle (dnav) for good profits and self-supply my stalls with a little gold ore. I'll reiterate that it needs a puzzle - everything needs a puzzle. I'll also direct folks to this thread and this other thread for discussion related to large ship soloing exploits that are used for more than just foraging. ---------------------------------------- Polly Hunter Captain of Flocktarts Avatar by Hedvvig |
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Benzene265
Joined: Jul 18, 2005 Posts: 6029 Status: Offline |
Unless they changed the rules again, it's a maximum of 3 unpaid accounts per month. So, either start paying for them, or wait it out. Back in the day, I didn't make more than one new account a month on average, anyway. Making SW alts takes time. >.> Also, if they had a foraging puzzle, I might actually forage. ---------------------------------------- A Ghyslaine and a Rhodin for every Ocean, but mostly on Viridian. Make the natural choice for our oceans: Google Rhodin Blonde! |
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Shuranthae
Joined: Apr 1, 2004 Posts: 9758 Status: Offline |
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Jirges
Joined: Dec 12, 2005 Posts: 916 Status: Offline |
I'm pretty sure what he means is one hour of time actually spent in game. Even if he doesnt, foraging is like that. That 17k an hour you do is restriced by labor hours. You cant just forage for 24 hours straight and make 408k. (Unless you really have no life, limitless amounts of money to spend on accounts, and the ability to function without sleep). If you are spending that much time in game....I think you have larger issues. ---------------------------------------- Mentos ~ Wicked Peace Mentos says, "im a tart huh? i thought mentos were sweet?" Ladysheena says, "you're the sour apple kind" |
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sweetnessc
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 16069 Status: Offline |
I believe he was referring to 100k per hour of his own time spent playing in the game. So if he has to monitor the shop for an hour a week and earns 100k a week, that's 100k per hour. ---------------------------------------- My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton Sublime is shame. |
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Shuranthae
Joined: Apr 1, 2004 Posts: 9758 Status: Offline |
That's not an accurate way to phrase it then. Foragers don't say they can forage 50,000 over a month of time and say that's in an hour of "play time?" |
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