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who1429



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A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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Before writing this post I would like to say that I have not kept up with the forums over the past 3 months. I do know that nothing of this detail has been posted prior to 3 months ago or if the ringers have tweaked the ships since then.

The main applications that come from this knowledge are with ship management and almost a new level of xoing. I know at least a few people (sorry Shur) know about this in part or in whole.

Whenever I was short staffed on a WF (usually always) I would only put 10 people on sails, sometimes even 9. Hopefully by the end of this post you will come to realize why you can do this and not have much problem with decent puzzlers.

Sails

Its been well documented that sails have a cap on them. This cap is 40% of total sail stations. Obviously the sail stations don't always divide into 40% so it rounds.

Sloop - 1
Cutter - 2
MB -3
WB - 4
WF - 8

How the scoring works is the game will take your top 8 sailors on a WF - and their score will be counted at 100%. The remaining sailors will have their scores extremely capped. At the time of figuring all this out my crew was operating with mostly skilled puzzlers so I did not bother to calculate how little capped sailors produce. The reason we would use 10 on a WF was to have 2 insuarance sailors so if someone booches or isn't sparkly we don't take a hit.

The max tokens produced by these 40% sailors is 3/turn on ships that can move 4 times and 2.25/turn on ships that can only move 3 times. Easy conversion is to just multiply by 0.75. We found that the ratings good and excellent have 2 levels of scoring in them. We did not test for a low fine poor, booched or learning and found incredible only had 1 level (fine may have 2 or may just be 1).

Incredible - 3
High Excellent - 2.66
Low Excellent - 2.33
High Good - 2
Low Good - 1.66
Fine - 1.33


For Brigs and Frigs multiply by 0.75

Of course if you are on a WF and have 8 sailors 1 High Good would equal 2/8 and produce 1/4 of a token.

You can test these numbers for yourself using navy bots. Shop for boats until you find ones with dist or respected sailing and count tokens you get in a turn then record their duty reports.

Carpentry

Carpentry unlike sails is linear. The max carp repair rate is 10% a turn. Each carper can repair 10%/number of carp stations if they are getting an incredible. So on a sloop, 1 incred carper can carp down a max of 5% a turn. Add another body and you cut the time in half.

Same numbers as sails apply for ratings.

Incred 10%
High Exc 8.86%
Low Exc 7.76%
High Good 6.66%
Low Good 5.53%
Fine 4.43%


Bilge

Bilge operates in the same way as carp, however it is more complex. There are 2 important measures for bilge. This first is how fast bilge can be cleared once damage is repaired and the second is how much damage you can take on before bilge starts to trickle in. You need to know the first before you can more accurately figure out the second.

The max repair rate for bilge is 25% a turn (assuming 0% carp).

Incred 25%
High Exc 22.16%
Low Exc 19.41%
High Good 16.66%
Low Good 13.83%
Fine 11.08%


To calculate how much damage you can take before bilge starts coming in you need to have a general idea of puzzler skills then add them all up to get a percent. When the damage intake becomes more than that number bilge will start to fill and continue to fill until you are full or carp is repaired or you find better bilgers.

To calculate damage intake, you use the formula Initial Bilge Intake/(1-Damage) Then multiply by 100 to show %.

I will be honest in saying I am not 100% sure if my number for initial bilge intake is accurate. I use 1.4%/turn but remember that it may have been closer to 2%. For someone who wants to check all you need to do is put the bots on carp get into sea battle and count how many turns it takes for bilge to fill. 100/turns gives you the number.

So I have 25% damage. This means my bilgers need to be pumping out 0.014/(1-0.25) = 0.014/0.75 = 1.87%/turn. Using 2% just in case. 0.02/0.75 = 2.67% (I realize this is a big difference and am sorry that I can't remember which number it was)

Important thing to note is that this formula is by no means linear. It is an asymptote that approaches infinity. If I have 99% damage, I get 0.014/0.01 = 140% or 0.02/0.01 = 200% (Remember all increds can only keep out 25%)

So if you have 4 sparkly bilgers on a WB - you can stay dry to inbetween 94% and 95% using 1.4% intake and 92% damage using 2% intial intake. This may seem impossible but I have definately been sunk a few times with no bilge while playing around 3rd party with skilled puzzlers and having really high damage and no bilge.

What does this mean?

Before rl got really busy and I had to stop playing my crewmates and I were experimenting with how undermanned we could go with ships. We would go with 40% sails 100% carp and 100% bilge and some gunners. Using a WF of 42-43 we could fight a WF of 50-55 and not be at a disadvantage because of how our puzzlers were positioned. Saving jobbers and the ability to field more ships is advantageous in blockades. We also were working on a WB strategy where we only had 2 bilgers. When damage got above half we'd move the XO to bilge to build up more resistance and then a gunner if it was needed. Since before you get hit badly you don't need bilge at 100%. This has a great impact on wars as well, especially WB battles. In an even battle if you have 1 or 2 more puzzlers on carp the other ship will sink first. Of course it was always tough to move people from sails to carp and bilge as most jobbers didn't see the significance.

There are plenty more applications and uses of this knowledge but I'll let you figure out the rest. Again I really hope this isn't already posted somewhere as I took my time writing it :) My hope is that it will add a new level to the game, new strategies and make things more competitive.

Seeing as I don't have time to play anymore I thought I'd pass on some of the things I'd learned :) and give back a little to the game.

Phalanx/Solid
[Aug 23, 2007 1:51:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
flupa

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Very informative mate, nice job with this data :)
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[Aug 23, 2007 1:58:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tiberyus

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Re: A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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Me and Faldrok actually managed to keep bilge from coming in with 2 sparklings, and DEFINITELY 100% damage (that's what 8 MCBs and no carpenters do to a sloop, right?..)
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[Aug 23, 2007 2:12:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Saint_Death

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Re: A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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I'm not sure if I understood the bilging part correctly, are you saying ship size doesn't matter for bilge and that it's just the number of bilgers?
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[Aug 23, 2007 4:11:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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Re: A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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How many times did I ask for this info and you didn't share it? Bastard. :P


PM me if you're coming back, mate, there's some whispers of some more of the old crowd coming back as well, you might be interested in hearing.


My rule of thumb on bilge is that the full increds on all bilge stations keep you clean at full damage, and the thing scales linearly. So two increds on bilge keep you clean at half damage, one incred on bilge would keep you clean at a quarter damage, or by using Solid's math, 4 fines would keep you clean at 44.32% damage.

Does that bare out with your observations, Solid?
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mads0001

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Awesome info. Nice job mate :)
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[Aug 23, 2007 6:15:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sed729

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Re: A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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Phalanx/Solid
I so win for putting this together a while back. =P

Awesome info hun! Come back to us. <3
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[Aug 23, 2007 6:22:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
elbeejay

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Re: A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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It's too bad that these numbers and calculations actually require a bit of thinking...

Amazingly done, I had never heard of any of this before, all I knew was that you wanted to fill sails and carp before bilge on brigs and frigs.
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[Aug 23, 2007 6:38:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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This makes me wish there was a 'sailors delight' pay setting.
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[Aug 23, 2007 8:56:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
who1429



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Re: A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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I'm not sure if I understood the bilging part correctly, are you saying ship size doesn't matter for bilge and that it's just the number of bilgers?


Not quite, we found that every ship had the same max carp and bilge repair rates (aside from the MB which has been tweaked and I did not try this on new ships)

What matters more is what percentage of bilge and carp are full. If you have 2 carpers on a WB you can only carp down 3.33% maximum. You put youself at quite a handicap by leaving those stations open.

This disproves the carp hitpoints myth. But also brings another main strategy type I had looked into but forgot about last night. I do not know the numbers for this as I lost them somewhere. But if you look at how much 10% damage on a WB is and then look at how much 10% damage on a WF is. Then compare that to a WB needing 6 carpers and a WF 18. I can't remember the difference but you carp down more "cbs" if you used 3 WBs instead of 1 WF. Of course that requires 3 good navvers and it doesn't account for ramming. Thats just an example of the type of applications you can come up with when you really know how it works.


I may be wrong at full incred having 0% bilge at 100% damage. I was pretty sure a trickle started coming in slowly at that point *shrug*
[Aug 23, 2007 9:45:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
B_licker



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Re: A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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What about the damage and bilge accumulation that occurs over time? I haven't done any in battle testing, but during swabbie transport, a WF needs 6 carpers and 3 bilgers to keep any damage and bilge from creeping up. How does that factor into your calculations for repair rates?
[Aug 23, 2007 12:26:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
who1429



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What about the damage and bilge accumulation that occurs over time? I haven't done any in battle testing, but during swabbie transport, a WF needs 6 carpers and 3 bilgers to keep any damage and bilge from creeping up. How does that factor into your calculations for repair rates?


A good way of looking at bilge is to not seperate the bilge coming in constantly over time and the bilge coming in when you are damaged. The formula is not some x variable + the constant trickle. Rather it is that the constant trickle increases itself exponentially as the holes in the ship get bigger.

This link on the wiki helps explain the carp/bilge relationship. When bilge gets to half the bilgers have to work twice as hard to keep out the water.

Using the model - 3 fine bilgers on a WF (out of 12) = 11.08% (percentage for fine) x 0.25 (since only 1/4 of the stations are in used) = 2.77% since the intial bilge is either 1.4% or 2% 3 swabbies can keep out the bilge with no damage.

Similar calculations could be used for carp but I do not remember what the initial carp rate/turn was either.
[Aug 23, 2007 12:44:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
okcorall

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Nice post dude. Good to see you back.
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[Aug 23, 2007 2:47:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
starrarose

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Re: A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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I may be wrong at full incred having 0% bilge at 100% damage. I was pretty sure a trickle started coming in slowly at that point *shrug*


After some testing myself with a few really good bilging buddies, we found that as long as the pumps are sparkling, bilge can be kept dry at 100% damage, if one of them drops from sparkles back to gold it trickles, but stops trickling when sparkles are back
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[Aug 24, 2007 2:53:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
abalia



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Re: A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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This makes me wish there was a 'sailors delight' pay setting.



Wow, me too. Sailing's my favorite anyway. :)
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[Aug 24, 2007 7:46:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
who1429



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Thanks for testing that. That was silly of me actually as I never tested for a cap on the asymptote. This is easily done by having damage at 100% (while bilging with sparkles) then having everyone abandon and seeing how long it takes to fill up. But seeing as you found it is very close to all incredibles, I would guess the max rate water can come in is 25%. The model for bilge is still a correct one, just that the number is capped at 25%, which makes sense as you never see the water filling in faster than in 4 turns.
[Aug 24, 2007 8:11:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
B_licker



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Re: A guide for XOs - How ships really work Reply to this Post
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Ok, I dug up some of the results from my testing of sail tokens in battle. It's not very extensive, but it's a start.

Sloop:
1 fine = 1.4 tokens/turn
2 fine = 1.6
3 fine = 1.8
1 exc = 2.4
1 exc+1 fine = 2.6

Cutter:
1 fine = 0.8 tokens/turn
2 fine = 1.4
3 fine = 1.5

MB:
1 fine = 0.6 tokens/turn
2 fine = 1
3 fine = 1.4
4 fine = 1.6
1 exc = 0.8
1 exc+1 fine = 1.2
1 exc+2 fine = 1.6

It seems to agree somewhat with your token per turn numbers and your 40% cap on sailing stations, but the additional stations past 40% do have a very small effect. I see similar results outside of battle too.
[Aug 24, 2007 12:43:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Inschato

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Since this is apparentelly a guide for XOs, I thought I'd point out this little tidbit thats currently on ice and headed for all oceans.. hold your mouse over the station icon on the list and.....


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[Aug 24, 2007 12:53:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fossaman

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That was both fascinating and useful.

Have you done any testing on out of battle acceleration for sail performance?
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[Aug 24, 2007 1:01:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
who1429



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Thanks for those numbers.

An easy way to look at it is 40% of the stations produce 3 tokens and the other 60% produce x/tokens a turn. Using the 0.2 you got for each fine you can sub it in and come out that the max tokens on a sloop you can get is 3.9. I would guess that the 0.2 is slightly high (as you got 1.4 for your fine instead of 1.33 as well) and I remember Shur saying the max he found was 3.7 or 3.8. If we use 0.8 then the 40% of the sailors provide 80% of the tokens and the other 60% provide the remaining 20%. From a blockade standpoint where jobbers are limited you want all your puzzlers pulling as much weight as possible and with those 60% you could fill 40% of the sail stations on another ship and get better returns.

Also note that the 60% of the stations also acts like carp and bilge. If on a sloop you have 2 sailors and 1 spot open the max you can reach is 90% of the cap. It doesn't fill to 100% if you have 2 incredibles. Think of both as seperate partitions. But especially on sloops, it'd be better to double your carp repair rate than boost sails 10%.
[Aug 24, 2007 1:01:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LtJamesDoom

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Solid rocks.

That is all.
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[Aug 24, 2007 1:06:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Solid rocks.

More evidence.
[Aug 24, 2007 1:16:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
who1429



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Awww, Dylan for a moment I thought you had posted this
[Aug 24, 2007 1:18:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Oooh! Remix to add the audio?
[Aug 24, 2007 1:33:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
antonkraft

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Awww, Dylan for a moment I thought you had posted this


That rocked it might have been the best sink pvp I have every been on :)
(my claim to fame is it was my boat and my recording ;P )
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[Aug 24, 2007 1:34:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nooblar

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But seeing as you found it is very close to all incredibles, I would guess the max rate water can come in is 25%. The model for bilge is still a correct one, just that the number is capped at 25%, which makes sense as you never see the water filling in faster than in 4 turns.


Just tested it, ram and 8 shots from a WF into a fresh sloop, watter filled at what looked like 22.5%, and was not full after 4 turns
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[Aug 24, 2007 1:35:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ElariaRed

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Typical Solid excellence. Nice to hear from you again :)
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BehindCurtai

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A quick sanity test question for these numbers: Bilge:

Both a sloop AND a cutter have two bilge stations. If the pump-out rate is only based on percentage of stations filled and how well they are doing, then having two sparklers on bilge will keep you equally dry in both cases.

But it's my understanding that a sloop at 100% damage stays dry with two sparklers, while a cutter at 100% sees the bilge increase.

Meanwhile, this analysis -- that carp repair rate is "constant per turn" rather than constant per occupied station -- means that a ship with more carp stations isn't easier to repair (more people can contribute to the repair), but HARDER (more people have to carp or else). This explains why the old merchant ships were so horrible -- they had huge number of carp stations for their size.

It is interesting to see that sails is linear up to a point, and then clipped. I had thought it had clipping from person #2 on all ships.
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Carpentry unlike sails is linear. The max carp repair rate is 10% a turn. Each carper can repair 10%/number of carp stations if they are getting an incredible.


So lets compare ship hit points and number of carp stations, to determine the effective repair hit points per station per ship.

Old merchants: Assuming the 10% a turn figure still held.
New merchants: Assuming that the new rate is 20%.

Ship "HP" Carps Value per station
Sloop 6 2 3
Cutter 7.5 3 3.5
Dhow 7.5 3 3.5
Old MB 7.5 9 0.833
New MB "15" 9 1.667
Bag 12 4 3
WB 15 6 2.5
"5 WB" 15 5 3
Old MG 18 15 1.2
New MG "36" 15 2.4
WF 30 18 1.667
GF 36 24 1.5

Things to note:
#1. MB's, despite being made easier to carp, are still in need of another doubling.
#2. WB's are worse than other similar-level ships, and need to have a carp station removed, or other carp station outputs bumped up slightly.
#3. The Bag is easier to repair than a WB, has the same firepower as a WB, and is easier to staff than a WB. Also cheaper, etc. Why use a WB?
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elbeejay

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Bags are cheaper then War Brigs? First time I've heard that... O.o
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